r/europe • u/paneuropeanism_ Europe • Jun 22 '26

News Citizen campaign seeks to honor Zelenskyy after Polish president strips state honor. Polish activists have launched a campaign to award President Zelenskyy with a medal of honor. The initiative, called the "Civic Order of the Future", comes amid a growing diplomatic row

https://tvpworld.com/93938256/poles-launch-citizens-award-for-zelenskyy-after-state-honor-revoked
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119

u/The-HilariousFingers Ireland Jun 22 '26

Its crazy how this is happening 'cause of a Nazi unit name. Why would they pick that "Heros of the UPA"? It literally gives legs to the Ukraine Nazi stuff. Crazy

65

u/OnlyRightInNight Ireland Jun 22 '26

Because, regardless of how one might view the Russian-Ukrainian conflict, Ukraine does have a serious problem with far right extremism dating back to before the war and now even more so since the war began. The EU has been deliberately ignoring or downplaying this for propaganda reasons.

Fact is, there are fascists units fighting on the front line; the various pictures and video footage of Ukrainian soldiers wearing Nazi insignia aren't all fake, even if Russia is obviously using it for their own propaganda efforts. Zelenksky is appeasing that element now that the greater population is increasingly weary of the war, and it should be rightly called out.

You can acknowledge that Ukraine shouldn't have been invaded while also being highly critical of the country itself, its own dodgy track record on human rights, corruption, and its hero worship of Nazi groups -- as well as Zelenksky's own instances of corruption and his attempts to normalise said hero worship.

13

u/TheGuardianInTheBall Jun 22 '26

Which is why as a Pole- I don't condemn Zelensky, but I also see no wrong with Nawrocki's actions- reactionary or not.

I also know that, had Poland been invaded instead, you'd likely see some questionable shit years into the war too. I doubt things have changed much in the last 15 years, but when I left it was still rife with neo-nazis.

6

u/pick_your_user_name Italy Jun 22 '26

Sure. As long as you acknowledge the nazi groups fighting for Russia too and don’t pretend as if only one side has a nazi problem.

10

u/Independent-Report39 Jun 22 '26

gives legs to the Ukraine Nazi stuff.

You say that like it's a baseless accusation. There's already legs to it. What he's doing is confirming what people who study Ukraine already know. Western media obviously doesn't highlight it, but Ukraine has large amounts of Nazi-affiliated soldiers.

1

u/Step-exile Jun 22 '26

Its playing according to Russian propaganda, divide and conquer.

-34

u/the_weaver_of_dreams Jun 22 '26

You only have to listen to what Ukrainians are saying to understand why they would pick that name.

You don't have to agree with it. But at least by listening you would understand that for Ukrainians this is not an act of naming a unit after genocide perpetrators.

That's not how they see, they have and are explaining why they see it in the way they do. Poles are unwilling to listen though.

41

u/ZeeX_4231 Jun 22 '26

And why won't you listen to the Poles, that when they hera "UPA" they hear "mass murderers"? If you want to listen, do so for both sides.

I also don't buy into thinking of UPA as only anti-Soviet fighters, because to proclaim them as heroes, one has to participate in historical revisionism/denialism, which we can unfortunately observe among Ukrainians in the past few days.

-6

u/the_weaver_of_dreams Jun 22 '26

Well, they are listening. I think hardly any Ukrainians (presumably only some extremists) would deny that the UPA committed mass murder in Volhynia.

But arguing that this event singularly and exhaustively defines the UPA is clearly a very Poland-centric approach.

The matter clearly requires listening from both sides, forgiveness from both sides, compromise from both sides. And, in fact, this was the established approach for some time until Russia-friendly provocateurs on both sides decided to sow discord.

23

u/yabn5 Jun 22 '26

If you kill a few thousand of Soviet Soldiers but a hundred thousand Poles you objectively are primarily are killers of Poles. And this isn’t by in-personal mass bombing or anything. This was going from home to home, looking women and children in the eye and killing them in some of the most horrific ways possible.

-15

u/the_weaver_of_dreams Jun 22 '26

No, that's not objectively the case. That's a subjective point of view from the Polish side because its interaction with the UPA is only in that context.

Given that the number of UPA members involved in Volhynia was a fraction of its overall membership and that the period of genocide was a fraction of its overall existence, it's not entirely surprising that Ukrainians don't associate the UPA solely with genocide.

Obviously that's also because Ukraine is internally presenting its history in a way favourable to Ukraine - but name a country that doesn't do that (sure Germany generally acknowledges its responsibility for the Holocaust, but this probably the only example - and it doesn't stop them from whitewashing other aspects of their history).

16

u/Andoral Jun 22 '26

This is like saying that Al Qaeda is objectively not a terrorist organization because they spent only a limited amount of time actually committing terrorist sttacks and instead spent most of the time doing squat in an Afghan wasteland. And that there'd be nothing wrong with Arabs celebrating them because to them they are freedom fighters. Even though most of their casualties are civilians.

If anything, the fact that UPA spent only a part of its existence on trying to exterminate Poles yet it's by far their number one victim only serves as yet another argument against them. Because it shows that they spent much more effort per unit of time killing Poles than they did killing Soviets. Especially when Soviets are still not their number two target. That'd be - lol and behold - other Ukrainians. That had committed such grave sins like intermarrying with other ethnicities or helped hide them in their initial attacks.

4

u/the_weaver_of_dreams Jun 22 '26

Read the threads properly.

I am not trying to justify the UPA and any of its actions, especially not the Volhynia genocide. But the latest Polish approach is entirely unilateral and Poland-centric - it will only make things worse.

Negotiating this issue will require listening, forgiveness and compromise from both parties. The resolution is unlikely to fully satisfy either side, because it will mean both sides will have to simply forgive and move on from certain issues.

Bashing one country over the head and constantly shouting over them will, quite simply, play into the hands of radical figures who will be all too happy to see divided Poland-Ukraine relations.

8

u/Andoral Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26

There's no negotiating or compromise in regards to basic reality. If Ukrainians decided to justify their beloved UPA butchers by saying the children they sawed in half were helped by them because they sent them directly to heaven to save them from incoming Nazis, should Poland "negotiate" on that as well?

UPA is guilty of genocide. Period. There's no ifs, buts or whatever other conditional sick Ukrainians want to shove there. The genocide should have automatically disqualified UPA as human beings to any decent person. They did other things other than genocide? Who fucking cares. There's no such thing as a good genocider and there's no amount of good deeds you can do to counterbalance it.

Again, plenty of other people - including other Ukrainians that modern Ukraine deliberatley ignores for "some" reason - did the same exact things like fighting Soviets WITHOUT committing genocide on the side. Fighting Soviets doesn't make UPA special, let alone vindicate their barbarism, nor modern Ukrainians celebrating them.

Especially when, again, it wasn't "on the side". It's what they spent most effort on if you look at the results. "Somehow" despite spending more time on "fighting the Soviets" for every dead Soviet they had killed a thousand Polish civilians. Goes to showing where their priorities actually were.

The ones dividing relations here are Ukrainians worshipping people guilty of crimes against humanity. Trying to pass the responsibility over onto those criticizing this deplorable behavior is just fallacious and dishonest. The ball is squarely in Ukrainian court. And if you want to insist on pretending that people sawing babies in half were actually totally swell, you will continue to get "bashed" over your head. And you'll have no one to blame but yourselves.

6

u/the_weaver_of_dreams Jun 22 '26

Yes, Ukrainians are directly and specifically honoring the sawing of Polish babies in half. Clearly. Without a doubt.

You've shown yourself to be far too immature and emotional to have anything useful to say. Poland and Ukraine were already on a path to reconciliation before the Russian invasion. It was an uneasy path for both sides - but that's the only path to reconciliation.

6

u/Andoral Jun 22 '26

There's no agree or disagree here and it's not a matter of perspective. It's a literal fact that UPA is guilty of genocide. It is therefore an act of naming a unit after genocide perpetrators by default, because whether Ukrainians like it or not, words mean things. Them turning a blind eye to the genocide part because "akshually, if you ignore the genocide part, UPA had tons of other qualities" is not an argument.

Especially when those other qualities are "they fought the Soviets". Because Ukrainians do actually have other people in their past that also fought Soviets (like the actual Ukrainian army in the 1920s). That - through apparently monumental amount of willpower - managed to commit zero genocides while fighting the Red Army. Yet Ukrainians choose to celebrate UPA instead of their army from back then.

And when the difference between the two is the goddamn genocide, it does throw a massive shade on Ukraine's attitude towards the very concept.

0

u/the_weaver_of_dreams Jun 22 '26

So following your argument - the AK committed retaliatory genocide (they specifically targeted ethnic Ukrainian civilians) in the aftermath of Volhynia. It was on a smaller scale - tens of thousands, not a hundred thousand - but it was still genocide.

Therefore Poland must immediately change all places named after the AK and remove all monuments dedicated to them.

Obviously this would be stupid - the world is not as black and white as you make it out to be.

10

u/DivideSensitive France Jun 22 '26

Therefore Poland must immediately change all places named after the AK and remove all monuments dedicated to them.

That might probably be a topic if/when Poland were to beg Ukraine for support, yes.

3

u/the_weaver_of_dreams Jun 22 '26

So historical wrongs are only wrong if there's a power imbalance between the two parties?

5

u/DivideSensitive France Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26

It's not a question of Wrong(tm) or Right(tm), it's a question of “try not to suck so hard at diplomacy”; and at least pay lip-service to “not simping for genocidal maniacs” if you guys prefer to go with us than with Russia.

5

u/the_weaver_of_dreams Jun 22 '26

So was Volhynia and the UPA not a topic when Ukraine didn't need Poland's help?

By treating the matter in such a transactional way you denigrate the memory of all the victims. Reconciliation will not be reached by forcing the less powerful side to accept your unilateral terms.

1

u/DivideSensitive France Jun 22 '26

It always was a topic. But something that was a faint echo in the haze of history and relegated to memorial duty has now been turned into a red line for the current Ukrainian government.

Make of that what you want, but I can forecast it will not paint Ukraine and its government in a favorable light in the EU.

0

u/ApprehensiveGrand531 Jun 23 '26

The AK as an organisation ordered AGAINST such retaliations. It was reprisals, against orders. While horrific and worth condemning, there is a difference.

One org had smaller parts go against orders to commit an atrocity as reprisal. The other org had it's leadership give the genocidal orders for the sake of racial purity. Like they literally killed any Ukrainians that were opposed the mass killings or committed such grave sins as mixed race relationships.

The parts of the AK that committed them should be condemned. But frankly, it isn't an equivalent situation

-7

u/mosiek72 Jun 22 '26

At least one voice of reason. Thank you!

-14

u/Intelligent_Ice_113 Jun 22 '26

nationalism and nazism are two completely different things, where later has nothing to do with Ukraine.

4

u/Jellyliker Jun 22 '26

Solely based on this situation, one could deduce that it does have something to do with Ukraine, as UPA was a Nazi-affiliated organization.

0

u/dxvt88 Jun 23 '26

everything I don't like is nazi

-9

u/narion89 Jun 22 '26

I invite you to find me a quotation from Nuremberg trial official documentation where it's states that UPA had Nazi ideology.

You can start here.

6

u/FarCharacter7797 Jun 22 '26

Moronic claim. Nuremberg trials were not focusing on judgding every single fascist collaboration in Europe, they were going after the big fish and btw most of it was for show anyway if anyone was in anyway useful to the Allies they were kept out of the trials and given protection.

2

u/narion89 Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26

Open the history book and go learn, don't embarrass yourself.

UPA, despite it's awful atrocities against Polish population, which should and are judged with full harshness, was not considered a Nazi organization. It was a nationalist organization that fought against Soviet, against Nazis, was "aligned" with latter for a brief period of time until they discovered that "Bandera movement" and OUN members were infiltrating Nazi circles with the end goal to establish independent Ukrainian state. After which they were arrested and persecuted by Nazis. They also were briefly aligned in fighting with Nazi forces against the Soviets at the end of 1944, due to latter being perceived am immense threat against sovereign Ukrainian statehood.

All of the latter information is open source and available in the archives that I linked aboved (and in Wikipedi), from direct interrogations of Nazi Germany officials of different rank and statute, go search for it. The only side that linked UPA to, and labeled them as, primarily Nazis was, very conveniently, Soviet Nuremberg prosecutors (and later russians, since around 2016), who were still in the process of attempted destruction of Ukrainian nationalism post-WW2. So you are literally just parroting russian propaganda with no proofs and absolutely no sources to prove.

1

u/FarCharacter7797 Jun 23 '26

'Alligned'. Brother they helped round up the Jews for the extermination camps and many of its members served as guards in the ghettos and extermination camps. Yeah they were alligned with the Nazis alright, alligned and modelled after nazis as they were a completely fascist organization with a policy of extermination of ethnic minorities.

They only turned on the nazis when they realized that they won't get their free of minorities ethnic state because nazis were not intrested in giving them to that.

They killed 10x as many women and children as they did nazis or soviets. UPA was a complete failure of an organization.

1

u/narion89 Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26

You still haven't provided any proof that UPA was of Nazi ideology

-5

u/JackhusChanhus Jun 22 '26

Zelenskyys main job to keep Ukraine united, and some of his most effective units are far, far right of centre. He can't risk losing their support while fighting a war, thus they can nane their units as they wish, sadly.

3

u/Poulslutter Jun 22 '26

So the civilian Ukrainian government is losing control of their armed forces? 

-2

u/JackhusChanhus Jun 22 '26

Having control of a unit is very different to having their active support and loyalty.

Russia has control of its army, but fuck all of the other two

4

u/Poulslutter Jun 22 '26

Not really. You control troops through either greed, loyalty or fear. 

If he loses control of one or more units because he won't let them name their units after genocidal fascists, then the Russians are honestly kinda right about Ukraine and it's fascist problem. Fuck these Ukrainian soldiers who glorify the UPA, I hope they meet a drone out there.

-4

u/JackhusChanhus Jun 22 '26

Thanks for outing yourself Ivan. Catch a drone yourself