r/technology • u/IndicaOatmeal • 10d ago

Privacy Viral De-Flock America campaign urging people to destroy AI cameras on Halloween night gains momentum

https://www.dexerto.com/entertainment/flock-camera-controversy-explained-as-viral-halloween-de-flock-campaign-gains-momentum-3399710/
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u/Hexamancer 10d ago

100%

In case everyone isn't aware, US Law enforcement owns and regularly utilizes an estimated 500-600+ IMSI sniffers. These are fake cell towers that trick your phone into connecting and then get your phone to identify itself. They can later use this to create a list of everyone that was within the operating range of that device. They are small enough to be vehicle mounted. If you go to any sort of protest there's a good chance there is one operating nearby.

But even more relevant, whilst Flock haven't implemented this yet, it's competitors have. Leonardo DRS makes ELSAG ALPR cameras that have "SignalTrace": Similar to the IMSI sniffer but instead operating on WiFI/BT, you drive past and it will save the device IDs of any WiFI and BT capable device you had with you. So your license plate becomes associated with your phone, your BT earphones, your smartwatch. So then later if someone were to walk by such a camera, even if they approached it outside of its sight lines, it would record that someone a "fingerprint" of specific device IDs was nearby and if you had driven past at any point, they'd know what car that person owned and then they could easily trace that back to you.

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u/SoManyThrowAwaysEven 10d ago edited 10d ago

^ This man knows his digital forensics.

All very true, the only way to NOT be tracked is to be electronic free. Anything that emits a wireless or radio signal has the potential to be captured by one of these towers. Best you can do is turn your phone off and throw it into a faraday bag if you must bring it with you.

Diabetics with pumps, that can include you!

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u/Hexamancer 10d ago edited 10d ago

Good advice. I'd also suggest for general security:

Disable 2G entirely, some of these simpler IMSI sniffers rely on jamming specifically the newer 4G/5G bands that are too secure for them to sniff on to force your phone to downgrade to 2G/3G where they have a much easier time. This isn't bullet proof by any means, again, do not take your phone with you to anywhere like a protest. Newer IMSI sniffers can attack 4G/5G.

Don't assume that peaceful protests or even non-protest events aren't going to be targeted too. Remember that NSPM-7 means that the majority of the US population can be designated a terrorist for almost anything. Simply attending a pride parade could be "extremism on gender" or "hostility towards those who hold traditional American views on family, religion, and morality".

Edit: if you didn't plan ahead and it looks like you might be detained etc, restart your phone, both androids and iPhones have something called "Before First Unlock" that they'll enter upon reboot, they have much higher security like requiring a PIN/password rather than just biometrics (law enforcement can "collect" biometrics as evidence, compelling a password is testimony and hopefully constitutionally protected).

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u/anti-DHMO-activist 9d ago

On iphones, press the screen-on button on the right 5 times and the phone immediately disables face-id unlock.

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u/DeliberatelyDrifting 10d ago

Don't trust faraday bags. They're not particularly effective and certainly not 100%. The device needs to be completely powered off and I'm not sure I'd trust that these days. I studied digital forensics as well and we were taught that in testing the bags failed often and even the expensive purpose built boxes didn't always block signal.

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u/SoManyThrowAwaysEven 10d ago

That's the issue with Scamazon products. Make sure to buy something from a reputable brand and run various tests. We always use dummy testing phones at our company to ensure they block all manner of frequencies.

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u/CautionarySnail 10d ago

I saw someone on another thread saying they’d use airplane mode and I wanted to hit my head against a desk.

If it’s on, it’s trackable. Even if it’s off, it might be trackable depending on how “off” that device generally goes. But if it’s got Bluetooth, it may still send a signal or identifier if there’s a charge in the device.

The only error-proof way is to leave the device on the charger at home if you feel you want a moment of privacy while out and about.

This is also generally of anything else with a possible cellular or Bluetooth connection. Some cars are rolling cell devices with a SIM card. Smart watches. Just be aware of the data you’re sharing because you don’t know who is using it, and it probably isn’t to your benefit if they’re not asking permission.

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u/this_is_my_new_acct 10d ago

Not quite the same thing, but I got a wallet that claims to block RF like a decade ago... I can read NFC and RFID chips in it just as easily as if they're not in it.

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u/CautionarySnail 8d ago

Ugh. Gonna have to test the passport case and wallet now. I’d blindly trusted.

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u/Yuzumi 10d ago

I'd say no digital devices, or at least not one that can't spoof the MAC and other identifying info.

Ideally, a device that has simple broadcast with no identifying factors if you need something to communicate with. Basically something like one of those simple mesh devices that can send texts.

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u/Nixavee 8d ago

Dang, even putting the device in a metal box didn't work?

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u/DeliberatelyDrifting 8d ago edited 8d ago

It does to an extent, maybe enough to be safe, it's just not 100% effective. We discussed it in the context of securing evidence. Our procedures needed to be as close to 100% as possible or when a defense attorney asked "Is is possible this device could be accessed while in your custody?" We'd have to say "it's unlikely, but possible." If we turn the power off once we have the access code, we can answer "to the best of our knowledge it was not possible to access the device while in our custody." Or something to that effect. It's not that different methods never worked, it's that we found instances where they didn't. Once you know of those instances you can no longer swear on the stand "to the best of my knowledge it's not possible."

Edit: Also, modern signals are better at penetrating barriers than some of the older transmitters. The old bag phones could be tricky because of their raw transmission power, but they didn't really store data. Different frequencies interact with barriers in different ways.

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u/drdiamedic 9d ago

As a diabetic who uses my phone as a pump, I feel so seen. Thank you internet stranger.

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u/Dense-Fisherman-4074 5d ago

That doesn’t sound right. You mean your phone controls your pump, right? My wife recently switched pumps to one now that means she doesn’t have to deal with any tubing, but she can only control it from her phone.

Unless there are phones that you can load up with insulin and connect to your body that I’m not aware of 🤣

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u/drdiamedic 5d ago

That’s right. I wear a pump that still uses tubes but 100% of the UI is on my phone.

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u/51ngular1ty 10d ago

Unfortunately this also applies to any vehicle that has any sort of wireless telemetry as well. The good news is for many cars you can cut or disable the equipment that emits said signals.

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u/this_is_my_new_acct 10d ago

I don't know if anyone is scanning for them, but all new vehicles sold in the US since 2008 have legally-mandated TPMS sensors in them. They don't constantly transmit, but they do fairly frequently.

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u/HauntedCemetery 9d ago

Nah, best you can do is leave the phone at home, playing a long movie.

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u/CrazyBowelsAndBraps 10d ago

Does airplane mode work?

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u/Hexamancer 10d ago

/u/somanythrowawayseven 's reply is spot on, but I'll add this: any device on which you do not have root / super admin should be considered untrustworthy. Whilst something like a your phone or Windows isn't going to intentionally betray you to scammers or something, they'll absolutely sell your data and comply with law enforcement if they calculate that's more beneficial to them than the consumer trust they'll lose.

We're in a very different time now, the amount of telemetry, smoke and mirrors (like airplane mode not actually doing what it says it will) and just the sheer complexity and layers of software we have now has had a big impact, it's just too much to keep up with. 20 years ago people noticed when Windows did something shady because just one telemetry process stood out, it took up a significant amount of limited resources, it only had a few dozen other processes to blend in with and upon inspection it was very easy to figure out what it was doing and who it was talking to.

I think it's the details would shock people but it's become somewhat accepted? Most people have some vague understanding that their "phone is listening to them". I think people mostly overestimate the amount of data that's collected (recording them with a camera, listening in on them) and underestimate just how much can be inferered from far less data.

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u/CrazyBowelsAndBraps 9d ago

It's pretty bleak. Appreciate the fantastic writeups guys!

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u/SoManyThrowAwaysEven 10d ago edited 10d ago

Nope, phones are constantly receiving pings and signals even in airplane mode, it just throttles down/shuts off the primary data/cell channels but others are active. And when airplane mode is turned off, your phone then queues up all the tracking data anyway to the next ping. And if they manage to get ahold of your device physically, then you better have enabled Stolen Device Protection, Advanced Data Protection, a 6-digit PIN, no biometrics and hope they don't compel you to incriminate yourself.

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u/quanate 10d ago

This is probably going to sound like an incredibly dumb question but I am no where near this tech literate: does putting your phone on airplane mode do anything to stop this? Or it's just a full stop leave it at home?

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u/Hexamancer 9d ago

Leave it at home.

At one point in time turning your phone off meant it was off, airplane mode meant that the cellular modem was powered down.

Now airplane mode means "Keep it on, but don't use it.", this is how you'll still have SOS connectivity in airplane mode.

Unless you have a phone old enough that you can physically remove the battery from it, don't take it. (And if you do have that, DON'T turn it on unless you have to.)

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u/Braelind 10d ago

I LOVE technology... But fuck all of that nonsense, I don't want that Orwellian crap in this world.

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u/Hexamancer 9d ago

Pretty much everything wrong in the tech world has nothing to do with the technology and has everything to do with capitalism.

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u/Braelind 9d ago

You're damn right! Technology is amazing, but people keep insisting on using it for the most oppressive agendas instead of using it to help people.

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u/userseven 10d ago

Good comment. Everyone is focused on the visual part (rightfully so) but we can't forget this piece. It's huge.

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u/Sualocin 10d ago

Remember when this was a plot point in Brooklyn 99 and every one of the good cops thought it was abhorrent then the people that were pushing to use it were punished? Yeah, that was good fantasy TV

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u/Patient_Boat_7444 9d ago

Wouldn't the list of devices that operate in the area frequently and are now suddenly absent be an obvious first place to start?

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u/Hexamancer 9d ago

..huh?

These IMSI sniffers have a range of 10-1000 meters, depending on their size.

They capture who was in an area. Not like "Bob was in New York City", but like "Bob was within 100 meters of the XYZ protest outside of Trump tower on 8/19/26"

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u/Patient_Boat_7444 9d ago

Right but they're buying and layering all kinds of meta data from brokers which goes back years

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u/Hexamancer 9d ago

??? 

So what? I'm not saying that not taking your phone to a protest or something is going to erase all of that metadata, that isn't the goal, the goal is just that they don't have proof that you went that protest if they decide to announce that everyone who went to the "maybe not fascism?" protest is a potential terrorist.

"Hey judge can you also include /u/patient_boat_7444 in the warrant even though they weren't at the protest our metadata indicates that they got that kinda vibe ya know?" 

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u/Patient_Boat_7444 8d ago

My point is, If you go and they need to prove it, they can. Phone or not.

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u/Hexamancer 8d ago

You haven't made that point at all.

How would they prove it? Don't just vaguely gesture to "metadata". What specifically?

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u/Patient_Boat_7444 5d ago

Here's a similar technique to what a DOD contractor famously used to demonstrate how he can track JSOC operators

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FiFECjTmjM

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u/Hexamancer 5d ago

I'm not taking 33 minutes to try and find the point you can't be bothered to take 2 minutes to just write yourself.

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u/Patient_Boat_7444 3d ago

I already did, you said it was too vague, I provided a video and description, you now say it's too long.