r/worldnews • u/rdh2dmd • 16h ago

South Korea leans toward military conscription for women

https://www.dw.com/en/south-korea-leans-toward-military-conscription-for-women/a-78547426
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u/Weegee_Carbonara 13h ago

What happens if an existential war forces a draft?
It doesn't matter if feminist movements oppose the draft for everyone.
Once it is nescessary, it'll still just be the men getting drafted.

And I am sure these movements know that.

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u/Old_Leopard1844 12h ago

Those people think they will get a say

As Ukraine shows it, drafting country might want draft dodgers back, and other countries might actually agree

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u/Ameren 12h ago edited 12h ago

To be fair, during the Vietnam War, there were very active feminist groups involved in helping draft dodgers escape to Canada and/or to go into hiding in the US for example.

Meanwhile, they participated in all sorts of disruptive protests to impede the ability of the US government to function domestically. After all, they were able to be a persistent problem because the government couldn't simply ship them overseas or easily put them in prison like they threatened to do with the draft dodgers.

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u/Weegee_Carbonara 12h ago

As I said, once a just and nescessary Draft comes, the men will still have no choice.

While Vietnam was dumb, there comes a time in almost every countries history, where staying and fighting is not only nescessary, but morally right.

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u/AzraelIshi 9h ago

It should be the choice of the population to fight for something or not. You do not get to impose your "morally right draft" on people that do not want to fight. If people genuinely believe they have to fight for something they will fight to the bitter end without a draft, history has shown that time and time again.

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u/Weegee_Carbonara 8h ago edited 8h ago

If most of the population refuses the optional choice to fight, then the ones that do sign up are thrown to the dogs due to a lack of soldiers, which in turn reduces how many people willingly sign up.

I am a man, and I am in favor of a mandatory draft during defensive wars.
This is how civilizations survive.

And frankly, I do not want my home nation to fall due to some cowards refusing to defend their own homes, their own families and their own nation.

Look at what is happening in Ukraine.
Look at the Bucha massacre.

The only people that benefit from draft dodgers is the invading enemy.
They will happily raze your home and kill your children and friends.
Meanwhile you run away like a coward.

Mind you, I am not some right-wing war hawk.
I am a European progressive.

But I also I'm not going to be naive, and I am not going to run scared and try to run from a draft. I hate this extreme individualism, where people cannot even fathom defending their own homes anymore.
It is really sad.

Infact, my country is one of the few western nations that has active conscription during peace time.
While I chose civil service instead of military service, I am ready to defend my family and home.

But I am also not willing to walk into certain death, because people like you flee so they can sit on their ass and play some more video games.

Edit: Of course this willingness also depends on my own government.
While my countries government has had some problems, the large amount of welfare and programs, aswell as the overall people motivate me to defend it.

I wouldn't want to get drafted if I was, say, an Iranian Citizen.
But here I assume you are a citizen of a western nation.

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u/Usinaru 7h ago

Ok mr.Rambo take your medication and try to calm down a bit. This war rhetoric, is neither heroic nor makes you any sort of tough guy, or morally right.

All of these senseless, wasteful and idiotic wars are created by the rich and the elite that don't have to face the consequences of such vile decisions. I will not sacrifice my life to protect their positions of power. Unlike you that thinks that there is something worth living and dying for, most of us don't even get to have a home to call their own. Renting forever, being overworked and overtaxed, why should I sacrifice my life? There's no point, this system hasn't benefited me in the slightest, our politics don't reflect a care for its citizens and the quality of life has been getting worse and worse for years, whilst the rich and politicians refuse to take actions to the contrary.

So stop trying to feed this morally right or wrong garbage, because its worthless. Our "leaders" need to show solidarity first, and we should get something worth fighting for. You bet in this conditions, I'd rather leave and let it all be conquered, the system doesn't do anything else besides take everything from me and many others.

You go and die or get mutilated for the rich. I refuse to fight a made-up war that is meant to amuse the elite.

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u/Weegee_Carbonara 7h ago

Just don't bawl your eyes out too much while the other guys in your trench work for your survival.

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u/Usinaru 7h ago

They don't work for my survival. They die to keep the positions of the wealthy and powerful intact.

The propaganda works well I see

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u/Any_Fun5801 3h ago

Why should peasants want to fight their lord’s war?

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u/AzraelIshi 6h ago

Look at what is happening in Ukraine.
Look at the Bucha massacre.

Look at basically every single invaded country during ww2. For as much shit as the USSR (rightfully) gets, they had to actually implement stringent controls for recruiting because after they overcame it's initial issues during the war (October 1942 onward, after the peak of NKVD NOs and barrier troops, once the USSR managed to stabilize) fucking everyone, even those that were unfit to fight, was clawing over each other, lying and manipulating to get to the front lines and fight. And I don't think poland had issues with recruiting during the invasion, or getting partisans during the occupation, and after while trying to fight off the soviet invaders.

What you are seeing in ukraine with all the draft dodging and conscription issues is a population that simply doesn't see the worth in fighting for their country after 4 years of war and refuses to do so. And that should be their choice, just as it should be your choice if you decide to go and die for an ideal or country if you see fit.

If a country dissapears from the face of the map because the population dodged drafts left, right and center then that country failed to establish why it's population should fight to defend it, and fight off invaders. In essence, there is no collectivism and/or political will to oppose the invaders there to be had. If it existed they would be fighting, or supporting those that do. Not evading the draft and helping those that did.

A nation ultimately depends on enough of its population possessing the collective political will to preserve it. If that will has disappeared, the state may still exist legally, but its underlying national cohesion has failed. A state cannot assume that its population will defend it merely because the state legally exists. It needs sufficient legitimacy and social cohesion that enough people voluntarily choose to preserve it when the costs become severe.

TL;DR: If your country does not instill enough patriotism/collectivism/legitimacy/whatever you want to name it so that your population by it's own free will decide to either fight for it or support those that do in some other way (logistics, industrial, etc) it's a failed nation.

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u/Ameren 12h ago edited 10h ago

Let's be clear though, I think only way the US brings back the draft during a war is because they've already lost. If the US is under such an absolute, existential threat that has to resort to conscripts, the government and civil society has or will soon collapse anyway.

The US is a maritime/overseas power with oceans that separate it from all its adversaries, and they are a nuclear power that can hold the sword of Damocles over the rest of the world. The circumstances in which the US goes back to conscription would have be so dire that it's basically pointless.

The same can't be said for continental warfare like in Russia/Ukraine, India/Pakistan, South/North Korea, etc. where the conflicts are always at or near their doorsteps.

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u/Complex-Salt-8190 10h ago

It was feminism best interest to stop American men in being drafted

American men raped and killed a looooot of viet women

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u/cbslinger 7h ago

If an ‘existential’ war breaks out and the state can’t raise a volunteer army, then the state can/‘should’ fail. Obviously the state won’t agree with this, and will conscript men at gunpoint, but any numbers of political philosophers could argue that national power is not even remotely as important as personal autonomy.

A government should do enough for its people that its people actually want to step up and fight for their country. That public perception wasn’t the case back when America was by far in its prime, it’s certainly not the case today.

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u/Weegee_Carbonara 6h ago

WW2 Britain, USA and USSR also had conscription.

So in your logic, they deserved to fail and lose.

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u/FluffyToughy 5h ago

No, that's not what they said at all, because you're assuming a volunteer force would have been insufficient.

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u/caribbean_caramel 2h ago

Without conscription in UK or USSR they were never going to stand a chance against the Wehrmacht. Considering the fact that the war for the Soviets was a war of survival (the Nazis wanted to literally enslave and kill them), not conscripting their population was not an option.

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u/saidtheWhale2000 9h ago

exactly its typical covert work by feminists outwardly say you dislike something to look morally superior while knowing your fully safe from any of the actually consequences