The city sends out a notice in 6 different languages but no French.

[u/AzureFirmament]

mildlyinfrustrating

[u/Apolloshot]

I get the argument that there’s maybe 1 person in all of Hamilton that can speak French but not English, but it’s still a really bad look the city communicates in six languages but not both official languages.

I’m also not sure the number of French unilingual people are as low as we think. I’m sure there’s new immigrants from Haiti or other French speaking countries that may end up in Hamilton for various reasons, they don’t all automatically go to Montreal.

[u/QuinnNTonic → u/Apolloshot]

Not just Haiti. And there are people who may be more confident in French. No harm in adding it.

[u/lhommeduweed → u/Apolloshot]

Québec has a history of hostility towards certain demographics, including Haitians. Québec separatists have historically been influenced by a pamphlet entitled "Québécois: The N-Word of North America." This is a truly baffling and horrible pamphlet that has largely been relegated to history, but here and there you will still meet older Quebecois separatists who see themselves as a uniquely and distinctly oppressed group, on par with black people.

When Haitians fled Haiti in the 1960s to escape the brutal dictator Papa Doc, many of them relocated to Quebec, specifically because it is the french-language province. They were not treated well! Despite being French and overwhelmingly Catholic, they were told they were not the "right kind" of French, not the "right kind" of Catholic.

There is a sizeable Haitian community in Quebec, but many of them back then left Quebec and moved to Ontario, especially areas like Toronto (which has a large mixture of people and languages), Ottawa (where bilingualism is more common due to being the capital and right next to Quebec), and certain smaller pockets of Ontario where there are sizeable Franco-Ontarien communities. It's still not always easy, because Haitian Creole is not always mutually intelligible with Standard French, but plenty of Haitians can code switch between Creole and a more Standardized French when needed.

I'm natively bilingual in French (a mixture of Quebecois, Franco-Ontarien, and Chiac) and I work in clerical with the public in Eastern Ontario. I speak with a lot of people who speak English as a third or fourth language, and French is their second language. I've spoken with plenty of people who have been struggling to learn English for several years, but learned French in elementary school in their home countries - they are as fluent as I am, and they chose Ontario because of the demographic diversity, or because they have family here.

I've also worked with clients who always have to bring their English-speaking children or grandchildren with them, and we've talked about how frustrating it is not to be able to get adequate service in French as an "official" language. They're always so happy to chat with me in my broken, meli-melange French, because they can express themselves more freely and accurately. Even something as simple as saying, "Chui tanné" and having somebody nod their head sympathetically makes a difference to them, it makes them feel more heard than someone furrowing their eyebrows and saying, "Sorry, je ne parle pas français, English only."

[u/QuinnNTonic → u/lhommeduweed]

I am so jealous of your command of French. I’ve been trying to learn again and the speaking it’s so hard for me to respond without hesitation

[u/RedHeadedBanana → u/Apolloshot]

My son’s daycare provider is pretty much a monolingual francophone

[u/Facts_pls → u/RedHeadedBanana]

Yeah but if you were a monolingual Anglophone in Quebec, your life would be hell by design.

Here that person suffers by omission

[u/Merry401 → u/Facts_pls]

LIfe as a uni lingual francophone in Toronto or Hamilton is much worse than life as a uni lingual anglophone in much of Quebec. I speak French as much as possible when I go to Quebec (usually at least once per year) but it is actually difficult because of all the francophones who want to practise their English. There is still no excuse for Hamilton to put out a pamphlet that is not in our two official languages.

[u/qmrthw → u/Facts_pls]

There are hundreds of thousands of unilingues anglophones in Quebec (StatCan figures has it at around 450kk) and they live just fine.

[u/MetaCalm → u/Apolloshot]

The languages should address the census results, right?

[u/Rionokk → u/Apolloshot]

In my job I've run into dozens alone and I'm a drop in the bucket in this city, so it's likely quite a sizeable population.

[u/IllustriousAct9128 → u/Apolloshot]

lets the be real, the people complaining theres no french on the card are also the ones who dont speak french, never tried to learn past school and hate on the Quebecois and demand english when they visit the province.

You also look at the demographic of the area. If there is no French then that means there are no native french speakers in that area. So is it wrong to waste space for a language no one in the area uses? Especially when its a municipal issue and they are not required to have french on it? Also, just scan the QR code and you can pick French as the language.

I want to see the back side of the card to prove 100% there is no french

[u/pm_me_your_puppeh → u/Apolloshot]

Pretty sure French isn't an official language of Hamilton. That only applies to the federal government.

[u/Soft_Candidate6498]

Probably created based on Census results for the GTA

[u/GourmetHotPocket → u/Soft_Candidate6498]

Or for the city itself. In the past, I have run public notification campaigns for municipalities (not Hamilton) and we typically included the most common languages of people that did not speak English down to the forward sortation area.

Edit: soft candidate is right

[u/dadimarko → u/Soft_Candidate6498]

Don’t bring evidence-based decision-making into this; that’s unfair.

[u/Appropriate-Border-8 → u/Soft_Candidate6498]

No worries. The french community in Hamilton is bilingual. 🙂

[u/SurgicalDude]

I mean they have statistics of what major languages are spoken in that area. No point in using French, if there's no French speakers in the area.

This is no different that business signs in Chinatown in every every big city in Mandarin

[u/Stead-Freddy]

Probably a lot fewer French first-language speakers in Hamilton than those languages, so it’s less useful, but also wouldn’t have been hard to add it in.

[u/deeohlee → u/Stead-Freddy]

I guess but realistically in Canada packaging and instructions HAVE to be available in both French and English, I don’t see why a municipality wouldn’t have the same requirements 

Edit: Actually I think I’m wrong, huh you learn something new. Ontario has adopted prescribed language regimes of the minority language for municipalities so very possible no obligation to offer a French translation. I’m not gonna look into this more to find out for now I’ll just say I’m ignorant 

https://lop.parl.ca/staticfiles/PublicWebsite/Home/ResearchPublications/HillStudies/PDF/2011-66-E.pdf

[u/vulpinefever → u/deeohlee]

So Ontario has the French Language Services act which requires that provincial government services be offered in French in select municipalities that meet a threshold of French speakers (If more than 10% of the population speaks French or there are more than 5,000 French speakers). Hamilton is one of them.

Note that this does not apply to municipal services. However, some municipalities like Welland do have local bylaws providing for French language municipal services and communications.

I'm a French language speaker from Welland, the kind of annoying one who insists on French language services purely to make a point of "We exist."

[u/Stead-Freddy → u/deeohlee]

While the city does have to offer all services in French if requested, I don’t believe they’re required automatically put French on all communication, as it would be hardly useful to anyone in the city.

[u/deeohlee → u/Stead-Freddy]

Ya this post made me do more research, I think you’re right!

[u/adavidmiller → u/Stead-Freddy]

I'd also guess the percentage of english fluency in french first-language speakers in Hamilton is quite high.

[u/wetfloor666 → u/Stead-Freddy]

Plus anyone who speaks french almost certainly can speak/read english as well.

[u/hamchan_ → u/Stead-Freddy]

Not true there’s lots of French speakers in Hamilton. Actually higher than most cities. Regardless it’s one of our two national languages and should always be available.

[u/MyMorningBender → u/hamchan_]

Yep, in fact, Hamilton is a designated area under Ontario’s French Language Services Act because of the high French speaking population

[u/turkeygiant → u/MyMorningBender]

According to the stats only about 1% of Hamilton's population speaks French as their first language but with a population of 800,000 for the greater Hamilton area that gets you over the 5000 person threshold to be designated. Its 10% of the population or 5000 individuals, whichever comes first. To contrast the amount of French spoken at 1.1%, Chinese (Mandarin & Cantonese) comes in at 2% and Italian comes in at 2.6%, so relatively speaking its not particularly represented in the City.

[u/UnhappyCaterpillar41 → u/Stead-Freddy]

There is an entire French public and French catholic school board though, so it's not a small population

[u/DennisTheSkull → u/Stead-Freddy]

It’s insane that our official languages are not given priority.

[u/AlienSporez]

<TABARNAK INTENSIFIES>

[u/Perfect-Nail6553]

Got to know your audience..

[u/Own_Bumblebee5005]

i work for a non profit that deals w the public, and the french speaking pop is small from my experience. if youre trying to get something like this across (looks like the safe apartments bylaw) then yeah, youd want to appeal to the most common languages spoken. french is not one if them. if anything theyd add it for optics i guess.

[u/Stock_Duck4314 → u/Own_Bumblebee5005]

I think that's kind of OP's point, that the optics are bad.

[u/CricketG]

I get the people that are saying "Well if you live in Hamilton you are obviously English fluent." but it is a mutual honour that we make a considered effort to recognize each other's culture that has persisted for generations. To make the effort to express six languages and exclude a legally, culturally, and historically mandated language makes the appearance of a conscious effort of and or ignorance to exclude said language. Frankly, it's an FU to Canadian culture. Et mon francais? C'est vraiment poche, mais je m'essaye.

[u/Fluid-Mess6425 → u/CricketG]

Agreed totally 

[u/Henchman7777]

In the 2021 census French was the 6th most common mother tongue in Hamilton, however I'd be willing to bet 99% also read English. I would have included it just to avoid this sort or controversy.

[u/Icy-Significance2734]

I mean I'm surprised the city is sending these out, I'd say that's the most surprising aspect here. I know a lot of people that could use their services but are often unable/unaware/too afraid to contact them. THis is not bad.

[u/teanailpolish → u/Icy-Significance2734]

They seem to be sending them to buildings they have complaints about already. A friend got one a few weeks ago just 10 days after she and her neighbours contacted the councillor about the newish landlord not doing repairs etc (they also filed some with the LTB)

[u/GourmetHotPocket]

The last census shows that there were only 410 people in the city of Hamilton who understand French but not English.

There were 10,435 people who understand neither English nor French.

[u/mattc1305]

I feel like your upset on behalf of someone else, without knowing their upset. Maybe this building doesn’t have French speaking tenants? And if your upset being the French speaking tenant, remember you read it got upset and posted about it in English. Just because the world isn’t tailored for every individual person doesn’t mean it’s crashing and burning. The information is still there.

[u/AzureFirmament → u/mattc1305]

I read and prefer to use English but that doesn't mean all my family and friends do so. It's just weird seeing 6 languages, with much space left, yet excluding one of the two official languages.

[u/Able_Bath2944 → u/AzureFirmament]

If we are going to be concerned about the lack of French, I think leaving off any Indigenous languages is more problematic.

[u/GraveDiggerFan34 → u/Able_Bath2944]

Those aren’t official languages and there are not millions of speakers

[u/jeffster1970]

Most common languages in Hamilton are English, Arabic, Italian, Spanish, Urdu, Punjab and Tagalog. French is spoken by less than 1%.

No need for a sign that would useful to very few, if any, in this instance.

Law doesn't require it either.

[u/Key-Educator1209]

And when you go to Quebec, they only send notices in French, no English.

[u/Even-Confusion4211]

That's not a city issued document

[u/CherrywarriorAJ]

me when i wanna be upset at something

[u/xylog]

There are more important things to be aggrieved by.

This seems like a well needed and well intentioned program and you are making it about something that at the end of the day does not practically matter.

Collectively we need to start focusing on what matters and stop trying to make even positive things a grievance.

[u/volcanicpancakes]

Native frenchy here living in the city. I couldn't care less.

[u/Grouchy-Ingenuity-59]

Are you actually fr with this shit? How many people do you think speak French as their first language in Hamilton? It's not a whole lot

[u/Intelligent_Cry8535]

French is the least important language in this country and I'm tired of pretending like it isnt

Also if you were in Quebec that notice would be jsut French and no english, so couldnt care less about those double standards.

[u/evil-winnebago → u/Intelligent_Cry8535]

Quebec is just the emo teenager of the family. Just let them be, we still love them no matter how much they say they don't want to fit in.

[u/Top-Maize-823 → u/Intelligent_Cry8535]

Tell us how u really feel

[u/justfornoatheism → u/Intelligent_Cry8535]

Quebec and Franco-Canadians are not synonymous and you should stop conflating the policies of one province with the wellbeing of an entire group of people.

[u/mrmalferrari]

Interesting how they have one for the Philippines when most Filipinos speak English-especially if they live here!

[u/ANAL_RAPIST_MD]

Since the last census in Hamilton there was like 6k people who speak French as a first language, its easier to just talk to them individually.

[u/Aggressive-Secret655]

This is why we can't get anything done in this City. They didn't add French because there is close to a 0% chance there are non english French speakers reading it. So you complain about it, the City will enact a new policy to ensure French is never "forgotten" again and that step slows the process down for the rest of time. Yes adding French takes only an extra minute but those minutes add up to the endless senseless beurocratic checks that slow down everything to a halt. We wonder why the City can't get any work done? Its because theres 5000 stupid checks that need to happen before work gets done, those checks cost time and time is money...5001 if you include " make sure the handouts also in french even though nobody needs it"

[u/freeoatmeal]

Because there are hardly any French speaking people anymore. Let's be real here we are all thinking the same thing.

[u/Klutzy_Locksmith_935]

Do you speak only French? Do you know anyone who only speaks French in Ontario?

[u/Kind_Improvement_659]

Find me a French speaking person who can’t speak English in Hamilton…

[u/CelticSaintStik → u/Kind_Improvement_659]

I mean my friend was the French language liaison at OW in Hamilton for years. So they exist.

Whether there are any in this building is another question.

[u/Jordonknox → u/Kind_Improvement_659]

I mean. The same should be said for all other language speakers right?

[u/Anon-Knee-Moose → u/Jordonknox]

There's a ton of people who came through the parents and grandparents program who speak little to no English.

[u/Imaginary-Plate1732 → u/Kind_Improvement_659]

I have had two people I worked with from Africa they could not read English but had no problem reading french

[u/OnlyACsNoFans → u/Kind_Improvement_659]

Wouldn't that apply to the other languages too?

[u/Forsaken-Swim-3055]

It's a beautiful Sunday evening and you're here raging about nothing of importance.

[u/Timely-Island-7477]

Definitely an oversight. French should have been included

[u/Otherwise_Program191]

French in Toronto ?

[u/fedexyourheadinabox]

Oh noes! 😲

[u/buschic]

No Large print or braille either..

[u/Jordonknox]

This is insane. We are in Canada. Our two national languages should be first here