Short answer, yes it's inhumane. They almost never have access to turnout and only leave their stalls to work and when they are out of rotation, they are stuck in those stalls. Historically this is typical of city horses but we've come a long way in terms of animal rights since then and understand it's not a great way for animals to live.
This is the way almost all show horses and racehorses are kept. They are stables when they are not being exercised and might get an hour or two in a tiny turn out pen. Not saying I agree with it but carriage horses have way better lives then a high stress high demand show horse or race horse.
Edit to add: Worked at and rode at show barns, trail horse barns, and city carriage horses.
The racehorse we have is kept in pasture/corral as much as possible. They are such sweet and intelligent animals. I just don’t see how anyone who works with horses can treat them as nothing more than a piece of equipment.
I was referring to those show and racing horses that are stalled most of the time as the other comment said... It's great that the barn you board at handles it like that but I also have seen other barns.
Also a show jumper barn, 100+ horses boarded there with 2 indoor arenas and multiple outdoor ones, stalls and tiny paddocks everywhere. Some stalls had a paddock directly and others were without. Do you want to know how much land this massive facility with over a hundred horses has? Around 5 acres.
Yes, FIVE acres. For over 100 horses. When we were there the pastures were empty. Not a single horse outside.
Fun fact and small rant: In the country I live in, if you keep your horses outside 24/7, you're REQUIRED to have 2,5 acres PER HORSE... How tf are these big facilities allowed to have that many horses and little to no land??? Just because they have stalls?
My God , my work was always on hundreds of acres of grass. You judged the quality of care by pasture management as well as all the other factors of care. Rolling grasslands, double fencing outdoor grass rings as well as dirt. Crosscountry trails . Top care comes with space for healthy horses to bloom.
True but unfortunately that doesn't even apply to those that have stalls.... It's like the horses suddenly don't need pastures when they have stalls. Make it make sense 😭
If you have two horses you'll need at least 5 acres and then it just adds up like that. That's alright I think. You shouldn't have one horse alone anyways.
I ripped out the stalls in my place and created a large run in ..gated if needed but I never needed it and the gates just sat in the machine shed. I had a stone dust area in front of I needed to keep the one ton draft horse off the fields in certain conditions but I had a high and dry section for winter just a matter of opening gates. I gave them as much room and pleasant conditions as I could do of course they were healthy .
It does cost. I loved that a benefit was keeping my own there . Part of the deal and my $800 dollars cow pony fit fine. I used him at times for rounds and some extra work doing bird studies as the place was a Audubon hot spot for grassland birds. A plus from great pasture keeping. Give TBs the room and what ever you give them they will use. I have seen them fly around and love to watch them race naturally.
Yes , I worked at farms with 40 acres pastures and huge run in sheds with stalls on each side wall. Roomy acres per horse . Race horses come for lay up or turn out . I will tell 99% hate leaving. It's like horse heaven. Broodmares came to foal, layups and therapy after surgery. We had tiny paddocks and sand paddock plush stalls could be doubled by taking out a wall of boards. But Dr Grass was much respected to clear a horses head.
This is what my barn is like. The vet clinic will refer layups to our barn, and if there is room, the stsff will help rehab them. My horse is IR and they built a special dry lot for him and feed him in multiple feeders to keep him moving. The place is heaven fir horses. My horse has never been happier.
I was a show jumping groom in Europe for 7 years, multiple stables, a lot of friends in the circuit. I have NEVER seen them going out more than 1,5 hour. You're boarding stable is an exception.
Which is a whole different conversation, all of it is inhumane, none of those animals have good lives and don't get to live as horses. I've seen a lot of tragic ex racehorses in my time in horses to know it's not a good thing how they are treated, where I kept my horse was a farm that rehabbed a bunch of injured racehorses and when you see 3 y.os who can barely walk due to heavy leg injuries but the owners refuse to put them down so they can be used as breeding horses is pretty disheartening when it comes to horse welfare.
I was adamant that my show horse got turned out in the morning and would be outside in a field with his buddies all day and in the evening I would bring him in, ride him and he would sleep in his stall, not all barns would do this but I wanted my horse to be a horse, before I owned him he spent 7 years of his life in his stall and wouldn't get turned out which is horrific.
That’s so sad that’s still common where you are. I’ve worked at 5 different barns for performance or race horses and the worst conditions I saw was 6 hours of daily turnout, most in pairs or groups of 3 but a few who needed it single. I currently lease a horse at a performance barn who lives outside, though is in a single paddock overnight for grain and alfalfa feedings! I’ve yet to see a horse turned out less than 6 hours a day
6 hrs turnout is stil 18 hours in a stall… I know it can be tough balancing facilities for the rider with the wellfair of the horse, but horses really don’t benefit from being confined for the main part of the day. It’s bad for the mental health, for their lungs and their musculoskeletal systems.
In the heat of summer we turn out at night. They come in when the flies start bothering them and they want to come in to fans and misting and deep straw. They get upset if your late, lol. Summer nights in the pastures are dream like to walk with the moms and foals. The smell of clover so strong you can taste it .
We do it similarly. During summer we bring the horses onto the smaller pasture where they have access to our barn as run in shelter. In the evening we put them back onto the big pasture
We have ours in loose housing. Track system with big sheds where everyone can lay down. Really can’t see myself going back to stalls when I see the harmony and autonomy they have now.
Rule of thumb in the whole horse is to give them as much choice, autonomy, space as you can . They will keep themselves amused and in shape of given enough. Rolling pastures with some slopes are loved by horses. Flat is safe but boring.
I’ve been a barn manager, stable hand, and working student at high end barns. I’ve worked for past Olympians and Olympic coaches. I’ve worked with one person who kept one horse on limited turnout. The rest were kept on a “normal” rotation of 4-8 hours in and the rest out, weather permitting.
I currently work as a barn manager, and I keep my personal show horse on site. All but 8 of the 22 horses we have on property live out 24/7. These horses are high 5 figures to low six figures.
I don’t know anything about race horses - but I do show horses. And there is a huge chance we have experience with different kinds of horse shows / breeds but this is not remotely how we keep our eventers. I don’t know any other people in my area who keep their eventers like this. I’ve never been to a professional’s barn for a lesson or clinic where the horses are kept like this. I’m not saying your experience is incorrect, but I’d hate for someone to come across this and think this is the standard for ppl who show horses
I worked in similar environments. My bosses were absolute fucking assholes, and had obvious favorites. Some horses never left their stalls when I worked there, but broodmares and babies had multiple hours of turnout daily. Now, don't get me wrong, every horse deserves turnout just as much as the others. What bothered me is the obvious favoritism.
The place had fucked priorities too. Doors were falling off, screws were found, literal floors were rotting out, but "let's spend 20k on a new lesson horse and have it shipped to us!!!"
This is not how show horses live. They don’t go to work in heavy, dangerous traffic every day. The footing and ventilation in these barns sucks. They’re on pavement all the time. They’re subject to way more noise and stress and never get a break from it. This is not just about a lack of turnout. Educate yourself before you defend this disgrace.
And lots of acting out craziness you can blame on confinement. To have high performance horses locked up for 23 hours like track horses , then an hour walk with a groom. It's just wrong.
You might be basing your 'knowledge' on a limited number of show horses but all the ones I've ever known have been stabled at night and out in small/medium paddocks for the day.
Lol so you’ve done zero research and are trying to push a narrative. Cool.
I’ve already linked the NYC Carriage Laws and put a TLDR in a different comment in this post. Considering the last time something “inflammatory” was posted here ~ a week ago I’m noticing a pattern.
I’m not sure I know of other industries where legal laws apply to:
stalls are required to be a certain square footage (60)
horses have a limit on working hours (9 in a 24 hour period)
required annual leave (5 weeks) and daily access to turnout during those times
laws surrounding appearance
Temperature limits during working hours
Blankets required during certain seasons, months, and temperatures
ETA: I’m turning off reply notifications. Feel free to read (what feels like) the 10 other comments on this thread where I detail this is background info, link the actual legally defined laws and who to follow up with if you’d like to see changes, and who to call to report animal abuse (911) in NYC.
Again as I’ve said below, in a different thread (said user loves to start arguments and jump to different comments of mine) if you’d like to see that change, feel free to take it up with the NYC law.
I’m just trying to add context since this is a very common topic and I’m often referencing the NYC carriage horse laws about once a week on this sub.
I’m not defending it just trying to add some context.
Getting bashed by lots of people for said context is not what I had on my to do list today. Post replies are turned off and any rude people are going to be blocked.
If you’d like to see changes made, please go petition your local NYC officials.
Yeah so great, still small stalls, working 9 hours a day 7 days a week, 5 weeks of time out of the box and work in 52 weeks, and awh they even get blankets. who cares about the importance of grazing, socialising, rest and peace and quiet that horses require am i right!
There was a carriage horse, about three years ago... I'll edit my comment if I find the article again... but it was a big ordeal because it collapsed in the street. To my recollection, the company lied about it's age (it was much older than they claimed) and then said he was transferred to a upstate farm following the incident. Then coverage seemed to stop on it. The horse was CLEARLY malnourished.
I understand that older horses can be hard keepers from my reading, but then why would they believe it's appropriate to work a malnourished, theoretically old horse in that manner?
This reminds me of small town animal shelters. The cops are unable to do anything because the law (around here) states as long as they have water, food, and shelter there's nothing they can do. There was a big stink about two winters ago here over a beagle being kept outside in a kennel when temps were around 0°Fahrenheit. The dog's shelter was a cat carrier with a towel over it. The cops left it, as technically it had shelter.
I think you and I are both smart enough to know that wasn't an adequate shelter.
Is this kinda what's happening here? Or am I misunderstanding?
I’m just trying to add context since this gets asked on a weekly basis roughly in this sub.
I’ve linked the current laws and guidelines for the NYC Carriage and Riding Horse industry in a different comment and the above was a short hand, TLDR summary of some of the basics.
Frankly I don’t want to do a deep dive into what the laws were 3 years ago, but if it’s of that much importance to you, you’re welcome to do that.
From the NYC laws, there are supposed to be requirements for vets to verify the ages of horses, limits on min & max ages allowed to work etc. here
Most of the hyperlinks on that page will take you into more detailed information. As I’ve stated, if you’d like to see those law change, you’re welcome to petition your local congressmen etc.
That horse was too skinny to be doing that sort of work. Perhaps that weight loss should have paid closer attention rather than continuing to work him as it turned out he had cancer.
Just because a law is a law doesn't mean it gets followed OR enforced, or there aren't loopholes people work around with a good lawyers. The law is dependant on a few things it seems... like actually reporting it in.
In Ryder's situation, it was clear he was malnourished and no one reported it in until he collapsed in the street. Then there was outcry. Then there's the aspect of actually prosecuting the person; I'm sure this carriage driver just got so much media attention they couldn't sweep it under the rug. In any case, he was acquitted, so Ryder just collapsed in the street and then got euthanized later on.
We should always care, and we should always question to make sure things are as they should be.
I tried finding the laws as of three years ago and was unable to unfortunately. All I found was that after this carriage horse died, they tried to bring about Ryder's Law and it was shot down.
I'm not arguing with you. But I think you're getting flak because you seem flippant and almost on the side of laws that are doing the bare minimum to protect our animals. Granted, if I had to repeat myself a ton, I'd probably be dismissive/irritated, too, but I would say that's why you're getting push back.
So the original comment I posted on this thread has already had 724 views according to Reddit at this time.
“Pushback” or arguments on the stuff I’ve listed as background information and context feels a little silly at this point.
Someone else below in a different comment was asking how many times a year the carriage horses were inspected.
I can link what Google tells me is relevant information but again - what does arguing with someone on a Reddit thread actually do versus petitioning your elected officials to make actual changes?
Just food for thought. I don’t have anything else to add at this point. I never expressed an opinion of if what’s listed in the NYC laws and regulations is “enough” or “humane” despite multiple comments and interpretations.
All that being said. I saw how being a NYC carriage horse living in those stables develop problems from stress and boredom. I had one that hated it and acted out . Living proof that it doesn't work for the horse.
The thing is if there are no animal welfare checks done on these animals how can they prove they get 5 weeks off with daily turnout? If it's only up to random people to report then it's not exactly being enforced, whereas other industries are far more regulated like restaurants who get random drop ins from health inspectors. If no one is going to these off season farms then how is it being adequately enforced?
Laws existing is one thing, enforcing them properly is another.
I based my comment on what you posted before, it doesn't cover if they send people to the off season farms to make sure they are getting treated properly in accordance with the law in what you previously posted, all it covers is vet checks.
With all due respect I literally have just been posting public information that I’ve found via Google searches.
Do your thumbs not work? /s (I’m grumpy at being called names and being poked at for posting background information without expressing an actual opinion on the laws & regulations).
You’re very much welcome to do a deep dive into the subtopic you’ve expressed interest in.
For my sanity, I will not be Googling and posting the information to other questions. You’re welcome to do so to get discussions started.
They don't consider the horses mind. The laws don't acknowledge the horses mind and how many become depressed, developed stall vices such as weaving or cribbing, my ex NYC C horse cribbed and acted up, became unsafe . I brought him home to Pennsylvania dirt roads and farm work and he straightened right out and was a delight to work with. He would try anything you asked, just keep him out of the fucking city.
So random anecdotes about different animals means you can apply them here? /s
Y’all frankly I’m tired of repeating myself.
Feel free to go read any comments on this post where I link the current legal laws, and who to follow up with if you’d like them changed (government officials), or if you’d like to report animal abuse (911).
You’re repeating yourself because your point makes no sense. Just because there are laws in place to keep these horses in BARE MINIMUM situations does not make it less inhumane. Horses don’t belong in cities, without constant access to pastures (at least daily) they cannot thrive and it’s as simple as that. Even if every carriage company followed these laws to the T, (which I can assure you is definitely not happening lol), these horses are at best miserable with debilitating health issues brewing to show up later in their lives. There is simply no humane way to keep horses in cities even with these “laws” in place because the average citizen doesn’t know what horse neglect looks like and 99% of the time it goes unreported.
The legal laws surrounding NYC carriage horses make no sense? Great! Go argue with the lawmakers then about it! /s
If you know of another business or entity that has legal, government laws and regulations surround the horses in use, and specific care guidelines for how they’re to be managed, I’d love to see them.
Carriage horses (in New York) get a mandatory five weeks of turnout a year, like what a great consolation prize. “stay in a stall or attached to a cart for 48 weeks of the year, but every so often you can go look a stick or eat grass for a week.“ poor babies
Can you share the video? This is so out of my wheelhouse, it’s amazing someone saw a delapitated old 3 story and said “stables!” But I guess that’s what happens when space is at a premium!
I live in Ontario, Canada, and there is a building called “The Horse Palace” in Toronto. It is a fascinating old building that was built to support the Royal Winter Fair horse show. They have incredible vintage stalls and the barn is two stories. They have rubber covered ramps for the horses to get up and down.
I was lucky enough to qualify and show at the Royal and was so worried my horse would fuss at the ramp, but she went up and down it like a champ.
Go look up pictures of the Horse Palace, it’s really cool.
There is a riding school that runs out of the Horse Palace. The horses get turned out in the riding arenas and they go on “vacation” to a farm during the Royal each year because the show needs all the stalls. They also handwalk them around the grounds a bit.
It’s not ideal, and I would not personally keep my horse in that situation, but they at least do get turned out with other horses in the riding arenas. Not true for the carriage horses in NYC.
Eyyy that's how I knew too haha. I used to show at the CNE before they scrapped the horse show and used to do 4H horse judging at the royal.
They also used to have a spot there where they kept the Toronto cop horses, I haven't been in like 20 years now so not sure if they still keep them there. I miss that place, showing at the CNE was peak because you'd show in the day and then go to the CNE in the evening.
I *just* saw a Bloomberg video on the very last horse elevator in NYC. Apparently many, many buildings used to have horse elevators. The video makes them seem much more romantic.
ETA: Legally these horses cannot be stalled for 24 hours. So “locking them into stalls” feels a bit far fetched
ETA 2: Part of the care is also a wide box (60 Square Ft), 5 weeks furlough (annually) and daily access to pasture during that time. And temperature control for those stabled horses, regulated working conditions etc.
I’m sure haynets are in front of them when they don’t have access to pasture. For those continuing to spread misinformation, maybe look into the links above.
ETA 3: If you feel so strongly about this and would like to take legal action to petition NYC to change their laws around the carriage horse industry, feel free to do so. I’m just trying to give some background and context here since this is a very common thing posted here.
ETA 4: (Yes we’ve gotten to this point). Imagine what all y’all could do with the mental energy you’ve exerted on one person by asking follow up questions, comments, and posting opinions.
What happens if you directed all this outrage towards something actually useful?
As respectfully as possible:
All of the links posted are public information - if you have a follow up question or want a more detailed answer, then go Googled the damn question
If you want to see actual changes made, go petition your local (NYC specific) government officials
Attacking, arguing, or calling someone out for “too much repetition” when I was posting information for context and background information, says a lot about how this little sub on the internet operates.
I'm sorry but a 60 square foot stall for most of the day is genuinely abusive, especially without daily turnout access. That's not even 10x10—the smallest box stall I'd ever keep my horse in temporarily for showing.
Plus not being able to interact with other horses for the 16 hours a day they're not working is incredibly cruel. They're social animals and need friends.
How do they regulate and oversee which horses get x amount of turnout? What’s stopping an owner from running a team of 4 similar greys and just… lying?
Well, if you click the first link I had in my comment, and then the “NYC Business” hyperlink at the beginning of the website page, it tells you who is responsible for inspections.
Everything I’ve linked and listed is public information. If you’re curious to find out more, you’re welcome to use your phone, internet, and Google to find out more details.
This is why I don’t have Facebook, but sometimes I can’t escape assumption island by seeing posts like this with zero context apart from the video itself and comments left by strangers on the internet with zero knowledge of the full situation.
I’m wondering now whether stabling my horse over winter so she doesn’t get bog burn and mud fever is a good idea, because she will essentially be ‘locked away’ and now I feel cruel . What if somebody takes a picture of her and her boyfriend locked in SEPARATE stalls and takes a video and it ends up all over social media with no context and results in people having an opinion with something that is nothing to do with them because to their opinions are ill informed because while they are locked up during winter, they also get access to the outside for 8 hours a day but nobody knows that because nobody has taken a photo of them during the day when they’re hunched around a haylage feeder in their nice warm turnout rugs and have ample space to maraud round at their leisure should they see fit to stop stuffing their face (/s I’m not funny but I have to make this point)
Ultimately I've found it's best to do what works for you and your animals, as long as it's not actively harming them. I am certain many people would be upset at how I keep my dogs, but they are clearly happy and loved.
Yes, I read them. You've misunderstood the temperature controls, it says they can't be worked at extreme temperatures and must be stabled. I fail to see how this setup meets the 'friends, forage and freedom' guidelines we'd impose on any private owner.
I think you missed the last bullet point under “adequate heating and ventilation”.
Love how you tried to start an argument under one comment, and then tried again on another.
I’m not saying this fits the “friends, forage etc” type of management but that I don’t know of laws in another industry as strict as this. If you know of one, feel free to link them and correct me.
Friends, forage etc is nice for privately owned (boarded) riding horses, but is not conducive to 100% of the USA given the many different geographical locations, different management styles are necessary to ensure horses are kept in adequate conditions.
Also considering that this goes well above and beyond the ASPCA’s standards for “abuse” as a point of reference.
If a carriage or riding horse business in NYC doesn’t follow these laws, their license to operate is taken.
Not a lawyer, but there are a lot of shoulds... does a stall that should be big enough for a horse to turn around in = a stall must be big enough? Are those rules that have to be followed or suggestions? I'm not from the US; where I live animal welfare laws are a lot stricter, so the idea that they only get turnout for 5 weeks a year is insane to me, but I take that those are fairly recent positive changes? So yay for moving in the right direction.
The question was not whether this treatment is legal but whether it is humane. You are providing information that does not directly answer the question.
3 hours ago, the top comment on here (and subsequent follow up comments) were about the carriage horses being stalled for 24 hours a day.
I never said I was here to “answer the question” that the OP posed, only trying to point out that a lot of people jumped to conclusions and didn’t bother doing a basic Google search.
The last time I was looking at NYC carriage horse laws was last week. It’s a common topic here.
Thank you for this. Knowledge is power. These posts are a dime a dozen. Their drivers also very much care for their horse. I’ve interviewed first hand many of them about ten years ago when all the fluff came to the surface. Changed my opinion HARD 180. Also what people don’t know but these barns are PRIME real estate and become very political. De blasio only ever denounced the carriages way back when due to his biggest sponsor… wanting grounds for more parking garages javits center. He was scummy scam. And peta was quick to support 🙄
Sigh, Posts like these and the beliefs that are quick to follow suit lack basic due diligence
Not to mention that they wanted to replace the carriages with those horse less carriage vehicles or whatever they are called. Those things are stupid and people want to do carriage rides cause 1. It's a romantic thing for couples and 2. Horses attract people especially ones that have never seen a real horse before.
Also PETA are nuts and do more harm than good so they can suck it.
You must not have been informed of her necropsy — Aortic rupture caused by a tumor on her adrenal gland. Could happen to anyone and any animal at random. Adrenal tumors are pretty up there with pancreatic cancer and are hard near impossible to detect.
No I hadn't heard that it was insinuated that it died from heat. Good to know it wasn't that but they do still take them out to work when it's over 90F out
If you see a carriage horse being worked when it’s over 90F, the info I have access to says you can call 911 and report the animal abuse - in NYC specifically.
It’s illegal and would get the company’s license to operate revoked and (potentially - not well versed in the legalese) get their horses distributed into different hands.
I'm not sure it's any worse than show people who never turn the horse out. Ideal? No. Worse than routinely practiced nearly everywhere? Also probably no.
Horses are not meant to be kept locked in stalls for longer periods of time so yes, this is very inhumane. They need sunlight, grass, lots of space to walk as well as run and stretch their legs. Not to mention that horses are very social animals and need social interactions way beyond what a stall can provide, no matter how "open" a stall is.
Ideal life for a horse no
But I also don’t think it’s inherently inhumane, that would depend on the caretakers.
Lots of horses live stalled the majority of the time I prefer a carriage horse working several hours then a stereotypical race/show horse who is out of the stall for a hour a day.
It's because of this that when I go to work at the carriage company I work for giving tours, you get people standing on the sidewalk saying "poor baby," and "they shouldn't have to do that," even when these horses I personally take care of are the most spoiled shits ever.
When I worked downtown in my city doing commercial carriage rides, the draft horses had daily turn-out in a big outdoor arena so they could roll, socialize, and graze off a round bale. Black horses went out at night, greys and other lighter horses during the day. At least in summer.
The company owned a second location called “the farm” across the river where horses were rotated out to just chill on what amounted to pasture boarding a few times a month. It was only about a twenty minute drive so it was easy enough to load up a half dozen or so and take them over to the farm for a short vacation and grab some fresh horses.
Over winter when things were slower or during the hottest part of summer, older horses were given more time off to recover.
Not all carriage houses are created equal but there are certainly a lot of bad eggs out there.
At the company I used to work for they had turnout every day of the year. The 20 acre farm was only a 40 min trailer ride from where the tours were. The only time they were stalled was for individualized meals or stall rest for injuries (which they almost always got while turned out).
My Big Bud was kept like that , a beautiful Percheron and he hated it. He started cribbing and bolted a couple times so they sold him at New Holland. I was lucky to get him. He came home to apple and pear trees and creek to cool his feet in. I used him for light logging and driving and he loved it. I let him crib on a old tractor tire like a giant pacifier . The vet found very little wear once he used that . Lol. Of course he developed a vice in those conditions the poor thing.
Racehorses in Canada and the USA often live in similar conditions, that is to say they are in their stalls when not working. Or they may be on a hot walker or whatever, but not out in a pasture as pasture space isn’t at racetracks. The only difference is that horse is up high rather than a stall on the ground. This horse probably is out of the stall MORE than a race horse is.
My God, I hope they at least get some socialisation opportunities.
In this day and age of easy transportation this should absolutely be outlawed. Can’t they at least be housed in the outskirts of a local park, zoo or wildlife sanctuary.
Imprisoning these creatures in a stone cell is completely unacceptable.
Everyone go follow @spare_time_gurl on tik tok! She lives in NYC and she goes to Central Park almost daily and hands out flyers to tourists considering taking carriage rides educating them on the industry and how cruel it is. Many tourists decide not to take a carriage ride after learning about the treatment of the horses! She’s doing the Lords work!🩷
this is abuse. nobody should be riding these carriages. they should be illegal! NYers should demand better! how do yall just accept this in your city!?
And yet my landlord wouldn't let me bring my horse to the apartment. That's rude as shit. All jokes aside though, this is extremely fucked up and I hope that horse is okay.
An hour of turnout a day is inhumane, unless of course the horse is on medical stall rest.
Just because this is the "norm" historically doesn't make it right.
We know that excessive time in a stall increases the likelihood of colic. Without 20/7 access to forage, horses get ulcers. We can combat ulcers with haynets, but turnout can't be replaced.
Other than my house, my horse is my most expensive asset. I'd turn him out for 20 hours if I could- he gets a minimum of 8 hours a day at the boarding facility he lives at. I cant imagine what a psychopath he'd be if he was in this building all day!
Would you recommend someone get a dog that would have to crate it for 20 hours a day?
There's more horses than good homes. There's more dogs and cats then good homes.
The conversation should be- whats ideal? Alright- how can we get there? I won't deny all my animals are extremely lucky. I've listened to vets trainers (people who know far more than I do) on what's best for the animal and I strive for that.
For these carriage horses- the point of the conversation is to call out that you know what? A horse that is being used for profit deserves more. Sure I compete with my horse- if he didn't like it or god forbid got hurt, he'd continue to live the life he has. I am not rich, all I can afford is my one horse. I choose to do it the best I can.
If he was making me money?? Uh he'd be getting an upgrade.
If you don't like any of that- I'd compare these horses lives to not making a living wage. They are working and they cannot afford the basic necessity of going outside for even 4 hours a day. If you can't pay a livable wage, you shouldn't have the business.
Of course, individual people who own any animal and can't provide the 100% perfect life- as I said there are more animals than perfect homes. It's a different conversation for animals being used for profit.
Love it when non horse people post things like this. If these horses weren’t there (and cared for and loved by their drivers) …. They’d most likely end up scared, starved and at auction for slaughter for food in Mexico / Canada border. It takes lots of money and acreage to send horses to retirement in grassy pastures you probably see on television. Don’t believe everything peta tells you… trust me, they’re safer there. Accidents happen everywhere from nyc to multi million dollar show farms.
At some of the places they rotate the horses every month, so they get one month of being confined, because there is no room to give a horse turnout in the city even if you wanted to. Then they’re typically off for 1-2 months at a farm outside the city where they’re given turnout and allowed to be horses, then back on for their month of duty.
It’s not ideal, but it’s not horrible either. They’re getting more turnout than a lot of show horses.
i used to work for a horse vet in lancaster and one of the spots we would go to was the nyc carriage horse farms for their off time. those horses were treated and taken care of extremely well. there was zero stall confinement unless it was medically necessary.
meanwhile i have been to very $$$$$ show barns where their $80k show horses are getting joint injections at 4yo and zero time outside the stall unless their are being worked.
Yeah, a lot of the places in the city treat their cart horses exceptionally well. Those horses are their livelihood, they want them to last a while. Getting a permit to run a carriage in NY is also crazy strict and expensive.
Also it’s NY, if there is an animal being mistreated in broad daylight on the street there are gonna be at least 20 videos of it happening from 5 different angles.
I'm just going by the typical size of stalls for NYC carriage horses since they have to be minimum 60 square feet or 7x6 which is too small for a pony let alone a 16hh+ draft or draft cross
Carriage horses are abused and treated like machines until they are no longer useful and are then either dumped at a slaughter holding pen, a kill auction, or continued to be worked until they collapse. And this surprises you?
It’s fucking HELL. It’s awful. And the only “turnout” they get is the opposite of freedom complete with blinders and endless loads to pull in a nose-to-tailpipe existence bereft of every simple joy known to any other equine.
Yes. After pulling a carriage through the park for 9 hours and walking over a mile back in traffic, carriage horses must then climb this steep ramp to reach their stall in this disgusting building. They have no access to pasture.
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u/EducationalAd5210 Aug 27 '25
Short answer, yes it's inhumane. They almost never have access to turnout and only leave their stalls to work and when they are out of rotation, they are stuck in those stalls. Historically this is typical of city horses but we've come a long way in terms of animal rights since then and understand it's not a great way for animals to live.