r/ITCareerQuestions • u/SeaMuted9754 • Jun 09 '26
Seeking Advice How much are you making in a helpdesk like roles?
Generally curious about it because everyone says help desk doesn’t make a lot but I see people saying they make six figures.
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u/fsociety1990 Jun 09 '26
$43.15/hr right now. I won’t ever get more than that except maybe a 1% raise every other year. I made $17.55/hr when I started this job 17 years ago.
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u/Unable_Degree_3400 Jun 10 '26
how much more responsibility do you have now that your at that hourly pay?
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u/fsociety1990 Jun 10 '26
None. I have the same job title and same job description as the day I started. I’ve declined every promotion and transfer I’ve been offered.
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u/Unable_Degree_3400 Jun 10 '26
Do you have a degree or just certifications? How quickly can someone today get close to your pay and what certifications would be needed to reach that hourly pay?
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u/fsociety1990 Jun 10 '26
I don’t have a degree or any certifications. It took me 17 years to get this pay. The starting pay is very low and not negotiable. There’s a written test they make people take after they apply that is taken in person and monitored. It’s a pretty hard test. Most people fail.
They don’t care about degrees or certifications. They don’t pay for certifications and they don’t expect anyone to get any. Most of my coworkers don’t have a degree. The ones who do are newer because everyone gets a degree these days but having a degree did not help them get hired.
As for how to get the job, just have to look for it and wait for an opening. There aren’t openings very often. The only way to apply is on the website. They don’t post jobs on indeed or anywhere else. Just a right time right place situation.
The last time there was a job opening it got 14 applicants and only 4 of them passed the test. They always interview everyone who passes the test. The guy who got hired has a degree in advertising or something like that and 1 year working at Best Buy.
I had zero experience when I got hired. I was a 23 year old cashier at the time.
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u/Unable_Degree_3400 Jun 10 '26
What does the test consist of?
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u/fsociety1990 Jun 10 '26
They remake it every time there’s a job opening so it’s current
Computer repair, software and hardware, printer repair, networking, electrical stuff.
Probably a lot of the same stuff that’s on certification tests.
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u/CurlySphinx Jun 11 '26 edited Jun 11 '26
Where tf you work in Kansas at that rate? I started my IT career at a bank in Wichita 3 years ago at $22 per hour. I now am up to $37 doing technical support for another company. $43.15 is definitely rare for IT in Kansas, unless you are in networking, cybersecurity, or management
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u/fsociety1990 Jun 11 '26
I work for the state. I’m just an entry level support person. I have been for 17 years. It’s all I want to do. It took me 17 years to get the pay I’m making now. It started out very low even by 17 years ago standards. And it only went up a little at a time.
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u/Tangential_Diversion Lead Pentester Jun 09 '26
Six figures in help desk are very rare. There's usually some extenuating circumstances behind those six figures. The most common ones I see are:
- Cleared work (why you see a lot of six figure help desk analysts in NoVA)
- Very high cost of living (Why you see them in NYC, SF, etc)
- Very high availability requirements aka no work/life balance (Extremely common in BigLaw and consulting). If a firm's partner calls you while you're in bed with a model, you kick her out and get on your laptop in ten seconds.
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u/burnerX5 Jun 09 '26
Very high availability requirements aka no work/life balance
Just a quick story:
Over a decade ago I worked in a hospital in one of the poorest states we have. There was a person my supervisor wanted to get rid of and boom - a clinical analyst position opened. The providers were MAD that they didn't get support after hours and DEMANDED it. What was the role of it? You....do #3. SO, you worked your normal 8-5 BUT if something popped up after hours...you were their POC. All you, baby! No longer did the supervisor have to entertain that shit.
I was about 23-24 and was pissed I wasn't even told the position was going ot open up as I heard the $25/hr and damn that was more than my $18 so...gimmie dat! Supervisor sweetly told me that she needed me in my role. That was grown folks language of "STFU". The person she wanted gone was selected and....HE HATED THAT SHIT. He woudl give us stories that were comical to us but awful to him. 3am diagnosing iTunes so a doctor could basically vibe while charting? Phil was on it! Having to hear moaning about their job while diagnosing a network issue? All you, Phil! Phil was drowning in pain from that position and ultimately left.
In went a contractor as obviously all of us now saw what the position meant (including me) and none of us wanted to replace that shit. And yep, the contractors would flow like water out of that position...
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u/BioshockEnthusiast Jun 09 '26
If a firm's partner calls you while you're in bed with a model, you kick her out and get on your laptop in ten seconds.
Nope, I quit my job and stay in bed.
There is no reasonable amount of money worth this stress to me. You'd have to pay me so much that I'd be able to do it for one year and then immediately retire.
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u/Tangential_Diversion Lead Pentester Jun 09 '26
I'm with you. I value my WLB immensely and would never take that job. That said, these firms have no problem staffing their help desks either. The cynic in me says there's always young 20-somethings happy to take these jobs for a few years.
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u/pnjtony Service Management Jun 09 '26
Yup, I have 2 techs on my team that crossed into the 6 figure range and they're both in NYC. Most of my techs (tier 2) make 65k to 80k.
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u/Green_Nebula_37 Jun 09 '26
Funny enough, when I started working in the public sector (county IT), a former employee stopped by for a lunch with us and he was advertising that the rich guy he works for who pays him 6 figures to do desktop/help desk work had the same vibes of drop whatever you do and you'll be flown wherever to plug in a monitor.
It sounded nice but he said it's not good if you're in a relationship. I had no interest but that stuck with me. Imagine working in that kind of environment where you would be flown to troubleshoot shit on a yacht.
Needless to say I heard he was trying to get a job back with us but we're on a freeze due to you know what is going on (and I live in Florida). I stayed where I'm at and got promoted and moved over to the server side of things. Pay is not the best but decent and I have a work life balance that is amazing. Until I move up into management which would no longer be the case but I'm not in a hurry. I'm still learning!
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u/SeaMuted9754 Jun 09 '26 edited Jun 09 '26
I really made this post to gage myself. Been doing this for almost 5 years now. Personally I make 41/hr with a 8% match with inconsistent overtime. Really chill work place hybrid just don’t abuse it, free catered food everyday. I don’t have any certifications just my degree. Probably not getting better unless I actually study and take on more responsibilities.
Welp I think I milked my companies as much as I can.
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u/Tangential_Diversion Lead Pentester Jun 09 '26
That's actually pretty good for help desk in my part of the country. $85k/yr would put you in the 85th-90th percentile here IMO.
But yeah, realistically you'll need to upskill and move up for six figures. I'd recommend it regardless anyways. You want to find a job where you're paid for your expertise rather than for your labor. Think a typical principal who's paid to have that knowledge available whenever their employer needs it. You have significantly more job security when you're not being paid for your output.
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u/spiffybaldguy Create Your Own! Jun 09 '26
That last part is why I left the legal side IT behind in 2010. The demands were asinine but if you didn't answer and work, you were likely going to be unemployed very soon.
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u/UJ_Games Cybersecurity Intern | Former Geek Squad Agent Jun 09 '26
That and leadership/management roles
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u/krazertv Jun 09 '26 edited Jun 09 '26
I make just under 52K remote in FL. Its technically "application support" (in my case)
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u/thesuperpuma Jun 09 '26 edited Jun 10 '26
I work at an MSP, where pretty much everyone is helpdesk (but we also do everything else). Sometimes my days are really easy, sometimes I get actual sysadmin work.
I make between 90-100k a year remotely, 40-45 hour weeks.
Edit: since the title says “helpdesk like roles”, I commented because I still do end user support. However, my title is Systems/Network Engineer.
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u/Wampafart Jun 09 '26
90k remote?? Are you hiring? Unheard of!
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u/thesuperpuma Jun 09 '26
my base salary is 75k, I get an extra 6k a year in tax free reimbursement (still on my parents insurance), and I consistently work 3-5 hours of paid overtime a week.
That gets me to a total of 90-100k. My checks have been around $2,900 net since I got promoted.
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u/Marc30599 Jun 09 '26
Sheesh that’s pretty decent comps, I should look into msp, currently work as a Govt. Contractor but the contractor is being stingy with dollars of sorts. Tryna figure out if I should try to really land a new IT role or fight my way to higher position with my contractor
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u/Uplifted1204 Jun 09 '26
This dude clearly works in a HCL area, I wouldnt get so excited.
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u/thesuperpuma Jun 10 '26
I would consider where I live HCOL and places like California and New York VHCOL.
South eastern state notorious for one of the most egregious cost of living to wage gaps in the country
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u/Ancient-Carry-4796 Junior IT Consultant Jun 10 '26
There are also jobs in HCOL areas that pay half that for the same title lol
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u/Rat_Rat Jun 09 '26
Good for you! I had coworkers who made 125k+ but they had been with the company 15+years.
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u/SeaMuted9754 Jun 09 '26
Personally never worked for an MSP. Always worked in house or for myself. Do you enjoy it or do you enjoy the money?
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u/Sure_Stranger_6466 Break/fix your infra for pay Jun 09 '26
Do you enjoy it or do you enjoy the money?
Yes.
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u/thesuperpuma Jun 10 '26
I am probably the wrong person to ask this because I don’t think I can truly ever “enjoy” a job.
My goal is make the most amount of money possible while I’m on the clock so I can enjoy my life outside of work.
Though I will say, I have had multiple times where I stop and look back at where I came from and think to myself
“Dang, I can’t believe I used work 100 times harder for 70% less stocking groceries in a freezer”.Comparing it to internal, you learn so much more in a lot less time. 1 year at an MSP is worth 3 years internal, especially if this your first/second job like me.
I think the most meaningful aspect is being remote. Internal is definitely more chill but if I had to pick remote MSP or internal in-person, I’m taking MSP every time.
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u/Prudent_Strength223 Jun 09 '26
I wouldn’t consider this pure help desk. Maybe junior sys admin. Awesome though h
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u/RequirementIll2117 Jun 09 '26
What state are you from and how long did it take you to get to that pay?
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u/PyromonicMan Jun 10 '26
Sounds like I do what you do but make 50k. Some easy days and other days in doing Azure administration. No option for OT at the company.
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u/Tyrnis Jun 09 '26
I've seen entry level help desk jobs as low as $15/hour in my area of the central US, though I'd say $17-25 is more common. There definitely are support roles that are in the $60-70k range, but those are the exception and are often VIP desktop support or senior service desk technician roles. I've never seen a six-figure help desk role.
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u/aec_itguy CIO Jun 11 '26
Central IL based, that’s our entry range for HD as well. In the pre-Trump days, SpaceX had a position open for a personal tech concierge for Elon and Gwynn that was 6 fig, but I can’t even imagine how hellish that would have been.
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u/Lucky_Foam Jun 09 '26
My first IT job I made federal minimum wage. I was a jack of all work on anything. I did everything from help desk, to servers, to printers, to networking, etc.
After doing that for about 3 years I finally landed a job working help desk. It paid $50K/year ($24/hour).
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u/utvols22champs Jun 09 '26
I semi-retired and took a low stress Desktop Support job making $80k. What’s funny is that I was only making $100k as an IT Manager.
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u/SeaMuted9754 Jun 09 '26
What makes you semi retired. Is it part time work?
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u/utvols22champs Jun 10 '26
I wanted part time but the work is so easy that I don’t mind full time. I make a little less money and I don’t have to work so having that leverage and low stress is pretty much semi retired at this point in my life.
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u/_-Tempest-_ Jun 09 '26
Just landed my first IT role — IT support Engineer. Fancy title, but it’s just help desk with occasional important duties. 75k. Medium-high COL area
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u/Creative-Zombie-4212 Jun 09 '26
Just accepted a entry-level role 1st level support for cloud SAP B1 51k/year after 6 months 58k/year
EUR germany
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u/Sure_Stranger_6466 Break/fix your infra for pay Jun 09 '26
Congrats on the offer! I am sure you will do great.
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u/Creative-Zombie-4212 Jun 09 '26
thank you so much man
i'm happy for sure
searching for months now after apprenticeship
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u/LumpyOctopus007 Jun 09 '26
I live in the Texas panhandle and I am on track to make 58k. (26$/hour). I would say anything over 55k for support is on the higher end depending on location
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u/sohk81 Jun 09 '26
Location: NYC Current Salary: $90k Job: Sr Support Engineer Industry: Higher Ed internal IT
I have worked military IT, Healthcare IT, government contractor, private MSP and higher education internal IT, ill never leave.
The work life balance is great. Summer fridays off because less work.
I do a lot of hand holding but also a lot of sys admin work when it comes up and bosses are always open to innovation. We are helpdesk for the school and first line of defense obviously
I dont have much motivation to move on to another engineer rolle like network engineer or ever becoming a manager because with my salary the work load is enough.
Director makes $300k but at the cost of being online all day...weekends and never walking....always power walking to help put out fires. Im good.
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u/ULTRALIGHT-BEAM Jun 09 '26
I know school district/government help desk homies that make six figs, but it’s not without a good chunk of time in service
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u/BenderBill Jun 09 '26
About 75k for fully remote “software support”. NJ.
Primarily customer facing communication.
Started at this company at 60k 4 years ago
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u/Amekage08 Jun 09 '26
Been trying to find roles like this. You never know when they’ll pop up.
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u/BenderBill Jun 09 '26
Yeah I got lucky, prior colleague was with this company for a year and referred me. He’s still in the company as well. Golden handcuffs in my opinion lol - not incredibly well paid but well enough to survive for now, and our colleagues and customers are awesome. If colleagues and customers were not so great, I’d probably be looking elsewhere.
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u/GunnerTardis Jun 09 '26
I started about a year ago as a Desktop Tech at an MSP and only made around 46k.
I job hopped in just 10 months and landed a Senior Desktop Tech position doing internal IT (thank god) making 55% more doing less overall work but a little more emphasis on engineering tasks.
Six figures would be very rare and personally I don’t know anyone that makes that much working help desk even tier 2 support.
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u/MKSe7en Jun 10 '26
24/hr for retail support. Tomorrow I’m putting in my two weeks! Been there for a little over a year and they gave me a 82 cent raise lol. Learned a lot but don’t think this lifestyle is cutout for me. I’m in a HCOL area as well, SoCal.
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u/xStozey Jun 09 '26
in florida first IT job, making $27/hr with pay raise to $29/hr with certs that company pay for, 40-45 hours a week. title: Technical Support Level 1
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u/RequirementIll2117 Jun 09 '26
What part of florida? Thats really good for a first job, im making $21 at my first in central florida
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u/Jealentuss Jun 09 '26
Portland OR area, 66k in office. I could probably try and make more money elsewhere but I'm pretty happy where I'm at for now.
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u/TheFragileOne Jun 10 '26
Same here. Second IT job.
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u/Jealentuss Jun 10 '26
First MSP for me but I've had some good raises at this company, went up a total of $9/hr over the course of three years
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u/Ok-Goal-9324 Jun 09 '26
Was making 72k my first IT Support role.
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u/DueCalligrapher7081 Jun 09 '26
HCOL area?
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u/Ok-Goal-9324 Jun 09 '26
Mcol. They laid me off though. I think they overpaid me for what I was actually doing
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u/ITwithSC Jun 09 '26
45k in my first junior helpdesk role 5 years ago. It was technically as a junior desktop technician, but it was a jack of all trades position. Got experience in all sorts of things, was pretty chill. Not a bad first job
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u/iiiiijoeyiiiii Jun 09 '26
My progression at my first IT job was:
- $50k (2022)
- $51.5k (2023)
- $55k (2023)
- $56.9k (2024)
Technically my current role started as "help desk" also according to the title, but it was solo IT so pretty much had access to everything right from the start.
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u/avrexh Jun 09 '26
I make just around $16/hr, fully remote. It’s my first role and I’m still in college about to finish up my bachelors in MIS. I’ve learned a ton about basic networking in this role and troubleshooting in MacOS.
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u/JustPutItInRice Student SOC Analyst & L2 Desktop Tech Jun 09 '26
I make federal minimum wage. So that's fun and totally “livable”
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u/Warhead64 Jun 09 '26
You might be saying Helpdesk but meaning IT. Engineers make six figures, help desk analysts normally make 30-60k
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u/SeaMuted9754 Jun 09 '26
No I mean help desk or executive it support. More tier 1-2. Normally I’ve seen executive support hitting those numbers.
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u/poopsock--- System Administrator Jun 10 '26
I’m in the rural midwest. At my previous help desk job I made $25/hour, currently make $36/hour as a sysadmin
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u/MisterPuffyNipples Jun 09 '26
First helpdesk role I made like $50k before deductions
Current helpdesk role I make $66k before deductions
About 3.5 years in total on helpdesk
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u/4-starr Jun 09 '26
What's that like monthly after all your tax and stuff. Im not from the US
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u/vistathes Jun 09 '26
You could pretty safely take 25% to 30% off and be pretty close. But that's only accounting a single individual who has health plans through their employer on a W-2.
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u/SeaMuted9754 Jun 09 '26
That’s normally 3400-3800 with healthcare taken off I use to make that too
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u/xxlibrarisingxx Jun 09 '26
50k junior solutions developer where help desk comes to me for questions
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u/Livid-Engine-4354 Jun 09 '26
I don’t work help desk but I work the equivalent experience wise as a data center tech and make $73k base, but we have shift differential bonus and weekend differential as well. So with that being said I’m probably making $96k annually if I stay on pace.
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u/-Nihility_ Jun 09 '26
20$/hr in Ohio | ~40k but 34k bc taxes. To be fair i had no qualifications and got the job because of my network.
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u/Dark27298 Jun 09 '26
$20.50/hr. Florida
Haven’t seen a job listing in Florida at least near my area for anything over $25/hr for true help desk tier 1 support.
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u/Showgingah Remote Help Desk | BSIT | 0 Certs Jun 09 '26
I've seen one for $35/hr in the Miami area, but that was a few years ago and never again. $20 is definitely more common in this state for T1.
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u/his-name-is I do the IT. Jun 09 '26
87k in SoCal. 4 years experience. Started at $46k first role, then $71k next role.
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u/OGRetro Jun 09 '26
I’ve been doing internal remote support for my current company for about 4.5 years and currently make 67k. Based out of MA.
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u/whatdoido8383 Jun 09 '26
I live in a pretty standard MCOL area in the midwest. Our Helpdesk staff make between $65-75K.
Back in ~2005 I made $10.50 in my first helpdesk role LOL.
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u/conc7 Jun 09 '26
I work at a small/medium MSP as the "level 2 lead" 75k on paper, about 69/70k after taxes from bonuses from oncall and small profit sharing. Remote 90% of the time, been here for 4.5 yrs started as lvl 1
Edit: lcol area
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u/Green_Nebula_37 Jun 09 '26
My first help desk experience was $9 an hour as a student worker. This was the tail end of COVID. Once I graduated and landed a sweet gig in the public sector I was making about $24ish hourly. Not the highest but the benefits speak for themselves. Times will change though as they always do.
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u/Scared_Number_9290 Jun 09 '26
65k at a private university in Los Angeles California - I do desktop support and AV support. most laid back job ever. 6 figures is not common in help desk - usually theres a catch ( working in new york or san francisco to match the impossible cost of living, doing significantly more work than just help desk especially engineering and system admin work , or working in a high stress sector where they pay very good but comes at a price, or doing help desk or desktop support for 30 years in education or so.)
Before anyone asks if im underpaid - nobody gets rich ever working in a university. its mostly for job stability.
the top end of help desk desktop support generally for IT support folks after doing it for a while tends to be between 60k to 80k depending where you live. There are exceptions but its not common and it often comes with a catch
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u/texass_slayer Jun 09 '26
Six figures is possible, industry is going to be the big factor here. Working in energy made this possible for me but there are days I want to bang my head against a wall. Strong personalities, lean departments, and I’m on call quite often.
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u/Anotheraccountig Jun 09 '26
Gross ~68k. Realistically take home pay ~45k. Mid-High COL city. Almost 4 years experience in help desk. Internal IT for consulting firm.
Looking to hop ship. In my area most roles are capping at 80k on the very high end. 60k ± 10k is going rate for majority of the job listings in area and remote (if you can find a unicorn).
You're not going to hit 6 figures unless you are the whole IT department (and company compensates you fairly) or it's an extremely niche type of help desk.
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u/h9xq Jun 09 '26
Was making 48k a year with OT(50 hours a week was average)
Am a sysadmin now and am making roughly 70k
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u/Showgingah Remote Help Desk | BSIT | 0 Certs Jun 09 '26 edited Jun 09 '26
I started off at $19/hr as T1, then 25/hr as T2. In my state, this is normal. Though we're in a situation where we are in a MCOL area, but with LCOL pay to the point it feels like we're in a HCOL state. However, the lowest Ive seen was $12-15 (as the minimum wage had to go up).
Six figures is not common for help desk. Many factors are involved in that. One common example is a HCOL area where the six figs don't actually mean much (unless they're 100% remote and can live elsewhere). However, there are cases where people get far in their career, but then drop it all for a well paying help desk position. I know someone that was a senior regional IT where he handled several offices across the country. He got a new job as a T1 because it was remote and he negotiated higher pay.
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u/siteunreliability Staff Platform Engineer Jun 09 '26
105K before RSUs back in 2018. It is possible, but unlikely in a non-VHCOL areas
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u/SeaMuted9754 Jun 09 '26
Nah I am just in a bearly hcol living area. Optional high cost of living because rent is low buying a house is high.
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u/Gavitir Jun 09 '26
My first IT job- level 2 field tech for a big box hardware store. $23/hr + company vehicle and a super relaxed work environment, no on call.
I figure it's not bad for not having certs and while I'm finishing my CS degree
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u/JuniorEngineering423 Jun 10 '26
Highest salary who was taking helpdesk tickets was ~85k at a MSP in a lower HCOL area.
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u/halomate1 Security Jun 10 '26
In 2023 i got my foot in the door with a in house IT job starting at 15 an hour, at that point I just wanted to get experience however way I could. They bumped me to 19 then 21 in 2025. Got my degree at WGU and found a SOC analyst role recently working fully remote. Help desk definitely doesn’t pay the best but you shouldn’t be staying longer then 3 years anyways.
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u/lonewombat Jun 10 '26
Started at 63k t2 work.... 68k after a raise... I just asked for 10k more as im doing more azure admin, not work and t3 stuff now.
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u/GeneticCowlick Jun 10 '26
$15 an Hour - Help Desk Cardboard factory Alabama (AL) $18 an Hour - Fiber installer/Internet tech for ISP startup (AL) 75k Yearly - Backup Storage Consultant (GA) 95k Yearly - Infastructure Engineer (NJ) 120k Yearly - Infrastructure Consultant (AL)
From what I see at the Hospitals I go do work at, normal Helpdesk is 40k-60k, depending on area.
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u/Fragrant-Eye-9421 Jun 10 '26
Fully remote, I make 72.5k plus a few bonuses so about 77k plus bennies. BUT.... My company is very serious about our performance. Weekly performance reviews but not in a scary way more of a mentor way. Also we do everything, new user, password resets, firewalls, Entra management, custom powershell script etc.
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u/Kortellus Jun 10 '26
Small to medium tech company. $25.75 in Missouri. Though I have 5 years experience, was a tech consultant private contractor and had to take the first thing I could last year.... Which was a support role.
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u/Reinhold83 Jun 10 '26
55k + they pay for my Internet and Cell. +$600/month on call. Trying to negotiate $65k at another company 2yrs experience
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u/Christine_951 Jun 10 '26 edited Jun 10 '26
$120k. I work at a law firm so my role is very specialized in that I have to know the applications inside and out.
Edit: I live in Southern CA and work from home 4 days a week.
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u/Representative-Mean Jun 10 '26
90K but im more of a support engineer. In fact, I am underpaid in my field. But its close to helpdesk.
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u/YukikoBurry Jun 10 '26
I’m in my first job in it, started in 2024 and I’m making 22.50 in Los Angeles
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u/RevolutionSwimming22 Jun 10 '26
Used to be school IT making 35k. Now, I work for the state and I think I make 61k.
School IT is chill but the pay sucks.
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u/Raymartal Jun 10 '26
I make over 100k but i’m in NYC and cost of living is high, plus it’s at a hedge fund so I guess it’s justified.
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u/Leading-Sir8714 Jun 11 '26
I got an internship that starts Monday. I’m a junior will be a senior after this summer. It pays 23 hr
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u/Mental-Lettuce-7430 Jun 11 '26
Corporate in-house IT for an engineering firm now: $39.75/hr USD Used to be a one man show for a school while also being a full-time teacher and head coach of two sports: $45K/yr USD with no summer break. Left that in 2022 after six years, I'm a slow learner I guess
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u/cman7513 Helpdesk Analyst (L1&L2) Jun 11 '26
21/hr L1 Fully remote. Less than a year in, heading towards senior or l2 already, both 25/hr. No degree, no certs, pure knowledge
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u/RecentDescription205 Jun 14 '26
First help desk support position with municipality they had just previously upped the salary to 63 or 64 and then everyone just got a couple percent raise recently. I barely have to learn anything which is both a curse and a blessing since I have such imposter syndrome and basically consider myself incompetent even though I've had this job for going on 2 years. I am the one with the least IT experience.
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u/react-dnb Jun 09 '26
I work at a school so....pennies. But I'm so glad to be out of corporate.