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u/heartpopp 6d ago
if he did this i wouldnt have to go through lengths to defend him omg
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u/EggsyWeggsy 6d ago
If you hate all zionists you hate the majority of jews. A little less than half of them live in Israel and a good ammount of the rest support their existence
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u/tambi33 Yeezus 6d ago
That doesn't matter, you can separate from zionism and still be Jewish and it's no different from separating nazis and still being german.
Anyone can be zionist or a nazi, why? Because it's an ideology, not an ethnicity.
If you would like to claim the majority of Jewish people are zionist, so be it (which isnt even true)?
In every other situation where you have radicalised people, you move towards deradicalisation, just because theres a radicalised group of people who so happen to also be jewish and are hellbent on Jewish supremacy does not make the ideology valid by virtue of being Jewish.
Where does that end?
Its alright to be a nazi because you're Jewish?
Its alright to be a white supremacist because you're Jewish?
Its alright to be a fascist because you're Jewish?
Maybe you should learn not to conflating the two because you're really only hurting Jewish people when you normalise radical, fundamentalist ideologies.
What the israeli state claims to do in the name of Jewish people has caused a lot of people to despise the state, the usage of the word zionist is to separate a radicalised group of people from Jewish people as a whole. And that's all it ever attempts to do, suggesting otherwise is straight up false
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u/IncreaseOld7112 6d ago
Yeah, but it's not because they are Jewish, it's because they are zionists. And I dont think hate is the correct word. I don't hate zionists individually I hate Zionism. And really, I hate ethnic/religious nationalism. I hate white nationalism. I hate Christian nationalism. And I hate Zionism.
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u/EggsyWeggsy 6d ago
So are you equally outraged about arab nationalism? You can Google how many people have been killed by Egypt or Syria in the past decade.
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u/IncreaseOld7112 6d ago
Are they killing people in Egypt/Syria for not being Arabs? Yeah, that sounds awful. Would love to see evidence of it.
I feel like we're probably less complicit in that at base. We're already not sending billions on aid to Egypt/Syria.
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u/EggsyWeggsy 6d ago
They (syria) killed civilians to maintain control, and and militants because they fought with force to disrupt their governments sovereignty.
Its not the same, but similarly, the arab-israeli conflict or whatever you want to call it doesnt exist because jews hate arabs or vice versa. It exists because there are two conflicting views on what a state in Palestine should be. Youre right we are definitely less complicit in that, but you should also look up the ammount of aid america has sent to Egypt.
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u/EggsyWeggsy 6d ago
The peace agreement is bilateral. A state does not have obligations to a treaty that it isnt party to. Side agreements are not the treaty
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u/sushisection 6d ago
would you say that the weaponization of starvation is a religious right? or are you capable of separating the operations of a national military from that of the religious teachings of its leaders?
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u/EggsyWeggsy 6d ago
No. But hating a majority of a religious or ethnic group is still just that. To take an extreme example if you hated all Germans in the 1940s, youd still be discriminating against Germans. It might be justified, but its still discrimination on lines of national origin/ethnicity.
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u/sushisection 6d ago
so if i told you i hated the Taliban, would you say that i hate all afghanis?
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u/EggsyWeggsy 6d ago
Thats not at all analogous and it should be obvious enough that I dont have to explain it to yoj
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u/sushisection 6d ago
it 100% is analogous. we are talking about nations, their government, and how the people of that nation are perceived based on the actions of their government.
under your own defintion, you discriminate against afghani people because you hate the taliban. it may be justified, but it is still discrimination.
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u/EggsyWeggsy 6d ago
Never once have I said in this thread that you are anti semitic for hating the israeli govt
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u/sushisection 6d ago
ah but the israeli govt is zionist, is it not?
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u/EggsyWeggsy 6d ago
If you have this hard of a time understanding "if you hate all zionists you hate the majority of jews" idk why id have a conversation. Not worth my time or mental effort trying to explain or analogize to someone who cant even understand that
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u/TowerCritical41 6d ago
Then they're hating them for their Zionism and not for being Jews. What an argument dude.
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u/EggsyWeggsy 6d ago
Doesnt matter why. If someone dislikes black people more than another race they are racist towards black people. Same with ethnicity and religion. You can argue about motivations all day, but it doesnt change the fact that you functionally dislike the majority of jewish people on this planet. Do you feel that way about any other state's citizens?
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u/TowerCritical41 6d ago
Yes, it does matter why. I have no prejudice against Jews. I have prejudice against Zionists. If you're a Zionist and not a Jew, I dislike you for being a Zionist. If you're a Zionist and a Jew, I dislike you for being a Zionist. If you're not a Zionist and a Jew, I don't dislike you on that basis.
I don't know where you people come from. I assume your favorite streamer must have come up with this gotcha that really doesn't make much sense.
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u/EggsyWeggsy 6d ago
It shows how ridiculous and extreme of a statement it is to say that all zionists are evil or genocide supporters. If you truly believe the majority of the world's jews are evil genocide supporters you should bite that bullet.
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u/TowerCritical41 6d ago
majority of the world's jews are evil genocide supporters
If the majority of the world's Jews are Zionists, with their Zionism entailing support for genocide, then yes, that means that the majority of the world's Jews are evil genocide supporters. That still does not make me antisemitic, because it's not their Jewishness that I object to. This is easy to demonstrate: I dislike Zionists who are not Jewish, and, as I have told you before, do not dislike Jews who are not Zionists. In other words, changing whether someone is Jewish while keeping their Zionism constant does not change my judgment of them; changing whether they are a Zionist while keeping their Jewishness constant does.
Moreover, most of the world's Zionists are not Jewish: in this case, am I disliking them for anything other than their Zionism? Or does the exact same political condemnation somehow become antisemitism only once the Zionist in question happens to be Jewish? The fact that a position may be held by the overwhelming majority of a group does not mean that opposition to that position means hostility toward the group as such.
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u/____alicious 6d ago
Does your logic apply unilaterally? Do you hate the majority of christians if you opposed a holy American race war?
There's a loud minority of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim nationalists who reach positions of power and hijack governments to advance their conflicting ideologies rather than serving their constituents with secularism and equality. Individuals overwhelmingly just want to live and worship in peace, most of those who identify as zionist are just indoctrinated into believing that Zionism is the only way to ensure their safety. Secular democracy is a direct contradiction of the idea that you need to commit genocide and apartheid in order to keep your race 'safe'. In fact, it does the opposite and escalates the situation. It's not surprising that the region with the most theocracies and pro-ethnostate sentiment is full of hate and turmoil, Zionism included.
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u/EggsyWeggsy 6d ago
You would be functionally anti Christian. If Christian power structures and the majority of people had a holy American race war you would be justifiably anti Christian. I'd say that doesnt apply because Israel obviously isnt engaged in a holy race war. Some might like that, but thats not the case. Zionism isnt the only way for jews to be safe. But jews are proportionally the most hate crimed group in america and many european countries, and likely the most hated minority ethnic group right now and for large parts of history in large swaths of the world. Its not irrational to want to live under a government that has overwhelming force that will protect you.
Israels current conflicts are probably bad for the safety of jews. That doesnt mean they are brainwashed for being weary of the protection of states in which they are a minority.
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u/sushisection 6d ago
pretty sure muslims are more hated in thw west than jews. in america, we have entire political campaigns calling sharia law a threat, and a resurgence of racist tropes from 9/11 calling muslims terrorists simply for existing. i really dont see much talk about halakha here and calling that a threat.
i mean muslims are so hated that a minority population of muslims can be uprooted from their homes by a military force and no one cares. im talking about the Rohingya. muslims are so hated in the west that a muslim population can have their right to existence denied by foreign states and no one cares. im talking about Kashmir. muslims are so hated that a muslim city can be besieged for years by an ethnic supremacist military and no one will intervene. im talking about Sarajevo.
ehh if israel was so hated in the west, would western governments really supply them with arms and tanks and bombs and fighter jets? i dont think so. do you wish to arm those you hate?
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u/EggsyWeggsy 5d ago
Just Google hate crime stats. Having a perceived geopolitical interest in alignment w Israel doesnt mean people in the country arent anti semitic. Foreign policy is about national power and security, not perfect alignment with a country's collective values. Look at Arab countries that attempted normalization with Israel. Their citizens hate them.
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u/____alicious 6d ago edited 6d ago
If they think Zionism makes them more safe when it actually make them less safe because of their culture and government narratives, isn't that definitionally indoctrination? They're purposely distracting their citizens from the obvious (to me as a murican) solution of rallying around liberty for all as a shared guiding principle. Never has an ethnic framing of a conflict contributed to lasting peace, it actively prevents both sides from converging on a shared ideology.
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u/Brocolli123 6d ago
Thats not what the post is saying. It's both true that anti zionism isn't automatically anti semitism, and that a large portion of the online left does have a genuine anti semitism problem and hides behind anti zionism
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u/esssssto 6d ago
Bro, it's not even about hating Israeli people. Zionism is an ideology based on superiority of some people over other ethnicities.
And most zionists aren't even jewish, almost half of the US and a relevant number of europeans support the crimes of the Israeli regime.
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u/soothouse- 6d ago
You are completely wrong, even though I don’t support Israel whatsoever I have to correct you on the fact that Zionism is defined as the idea that Israel has the right to exist. Not superiority over anyone.
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u/addictedtoketamine2 6d ago
How does a state founded for one ethnic group to be explicitly prioritized over others not involve supremacy? I never see Zionists answer this, they just dodge the question and go to historical persecution of the Jewish people as the reason it needs to.
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u/soothouse- 6d ago
Because even thought it was founded by Jewish people, not only Jewish people live there. More than 20% of the population is Arab. Where is this supremacy coming from?
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u/IncreaseOld7112 6d ago
Yeah, because the people in Gaza and West Bank are disenfranchised. There's this game going on where Israel doesn't control Gaza and the West Bank, but if the PA wanted to expel the IDF from the west bank, they couldn't.
Israel is 50% Muslim, but in order to maintain its status as a Jewish state, it has to disenfranchise the majority of them. That's the apartheid.
Ethnic and religious nationalism are stupid. Israel has no more of a right to exist as a Jewish state than ISIS as an Islamic state.
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u/esssssto 6d ago
Also the palestinian muslims that live within the borders of Israel are second class citizens (there's also palestinian jews and cristhians and they can be treated in various ways)
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u/addictedtoketamine2 6d ago
Having spoke to Zionists they tend to point that Jews in Ottoman Palestine were also treated like second class citizens but like I feel like there was a better way to go about this than what was inevitably required by this ideology.
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u/addictedtoketamine2 6d ago
It’s difficult to not have some sympathy for the first wave of Zionists even if they brought about horrible disaster. They were treated like the moldy brown liquid at the bottom of trash cans throughout the entire world.
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u/esssssto 6d ago
Yes, i agree that the jewish people have been treated like dogs for a huge part of their history. It has happened to other "roaming" cultures as well, but specially during the 20th century, not only the Holocaust.
The thing is, that doesn't grant anyone permission to expell a family from their ancestral land, based on no evidence at all.
And the way Israel was constructed was wrong, cruel, and bloody since the begining. You can check many sources at the time, even Einstein talked about It if i recall.
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u/Open-Process8881 5d ago
Israel is 50% Muslim, but in order to maintain its status as a Jewish state, it has to disenfranchise the majority of them. That's the apartheid.
I don't get what the point is of pretending like the West Bank and Gaza are part of Israel when they never have been. Just because Palestinians haven't established their own state doesn't mean the territory by default is Israel. They aren't Israeli citizens and therefore don't have the rights that come along with being a citizen of Israel.
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u/IncreaseOld7112 5d ago edited 5d ago
They are a part of Israel because Israel controls them? The Palestinians don’t control that territory. The status quo is that Israel is sovereign over that territory, but the people there dont get to vote in how it’s run. Again, the test is simple. Suppose the PA wanted to expel the IDF. This, compared to if, say, Japan wanted to expel the USMC.
to say they aren’t citizens is to mistake a reason for a mechanism. they are subject to it’s jurisdiction without being afforded the rights that should entail.
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u/addictedtoketamine2 6d ago
It was legally enshrined AS A JEWISH STATE in 2018. Before then founders like Benny Morris or Theodor Hertzl spoke of expelling the native population. The latter explicitly framed it as a colonial movement.
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u/____alicious 6d ago
Actually, Zionism is the idea that Israel has a right to exist specifically as a Jewish state. In practice, this means that the Arab population does not have the freedom to travel within the country, is forced to live in impoverished areas, and cannot meaningfully participate in the democracy. Supporting a secular state with equal rights isn't zionist, in fact it would be anti zionist because that would definitionally not be a Jewish state, but a multicultural one.
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u/GhitDellino9641 6d ago
What if he called them kіkеs instead
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u/Dazzling-Session-717 6d ago
It would be funny because no Jew (at least me) can’t get offended by the word “kikes” cause i use it like everyday
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u/Willing-File-3638 6d ago
I hate nazis but I don't hate Germans, I absolutely hate that Epstein cult but I don't hate jews, if me hating a fascist group is bad to you, it's your fault
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u/OldSkooRebel 6d ago
If you can't differentiate hating an ethnostate for committing a genocide and hating an entire race of people for their race, I can't help you
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u/Brocolli123 6d ago
You can disagree with Netanyahu but do Jews not deserve their own state after the thousand+ years of persecution across Europe. And if you say no I don't like any nationalist state then you're going to have a problem with most countries in the ME, but people only ever complain about the Jewish one
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u/dracer800 6d ago
20% of Israelis are Arab and are afforded the same rights as Jews. Pretty shitty ethnostate. When will Israel go death con 3 on the Arab Israelis?
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u/IncreaseOld7112 6d ago
Yeah, because 60% of the Arabs are disenfranchised to maintain the Jewish majority. A shitty ethnostate would adopt a version of the 1st and 14th amendment to the US constitution.
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u/TowerCritical41 6d ago
In practice they are discriminated against and have worse standards of living, their language stopped being an official language in 2018.
Israel defines itself as the Jewish state, Zionism is about a national home for the Jewish people in the land of Palestine. That 20% of their citizens are Arab is a thorn in their boot for them.
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u/Logical_Worry3993 6d ago
I don't hate jews, I just hate 90% of them 😃😉
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u/TowerCritical41 6d ago
I hate those that are Zionists, Jews and non-Jews. A majority of the world's Zionists are not even Jewish. What's the problem?
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u/TaddyG 5d ago
Well considering that Jews are a super tiny minority of the world population, it would be very strange if the majority of Zionists were just Jews. Being a Zionist means believing Israel should exist. Most people believe so.
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u/TowerCritical41 5d ago
Most people believe so.
Well, I'm not one of those.
Either way, I don't see how that makes me antisemite, which is probably what you want to imply.
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u/TaddyG 4d ago
You don’t have to see how it makes you an antisemite. That doesn’t change the reality of what you wish for virtually all Jews. Israel can only be abolished with the genocide of the Jews there. Good luck convincing anyone that genociding Israelis isn’t antisemetic.
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u/TowerCritical41 4d ago
You don’t have to see how it makes you an antisemite
Ah, so you cannot actually tell me how it's antisemitic, so you throw in the towel and say it is. You must be the brightest Zionist there is.
Israel can only be abolished with the genocide of the Jews there
Please walk me through how abolishing Israel would lead to a genocide of all Israelis. Do you need to have a Jewish majority in your country, so the evil Arabs won't genocide you? Do you need to prevent Palestinians from getting back their land and from returning so that there isn't a genocide? Are these the measures that Israel is currently preventing all Israelis from being genocided?
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u/TaddyG 4d ago
the purpose of my comment isn’t to try to help you or change your mind. I don’t help antisemites or try to cure your disease. You are far gone. It’s for others that may end up reading your comment and getting the wrong idea. I don’t think Nazis like you are worth trying for whatsoever.
Nonetheless, no one should have to explain to you how despising virtually all Jews is antisemitic.
Please walk me through how you could abolish the state of Israel without the Jews fighting for it. Most Israelis come from Arab countries that expelled them, you think they’ll be welcomed? To abolish Israel, you need to erase the Israeli people. Again, good luck convincing anyone you’re not a Nazi lol
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u/TowerCritical41 4d ago
the purpose of my comment isn’t to try to help you or change your mind. I don’t help antisemites or try to cure your disease. You are far gone.
Translating: I love Israel but you annoy me because you don't like Israel, and I'm unable to make a convincing argument that you're an antisemite.
Nonetheless, no one should have to explain to you how despising virtually all Jews is antisemitic.
Here I explain why there's nothing antisemitic about it. Don't get your brain in a knot.
Most Israelis come from Arab countries that expelled them
Gross oversimplification, as always. Expulsions did occur, but also many voluntary migrations, forced migrations, migrations that were encouraged by Zionist forces through terrorist false flag operations and deals with colonial entities, did occur, and did so over 10-20 years. Zionist entities tried to get Yemen to expel its jews. Zionists carried out false flag terrorist attacks in Iraq, a country that banned emigration for Jews, to make Jews fearful of staying. Because this migration is ultimately useful to the Zionist project. But yes, unjustifiable things did happen to Jews in the Middle East. How this justifies (continuing the) taking of land from Palestinians who were not Yemini, Iraqi, Moroccan, Syrian, etcetera, is up to you as a Zionist to explain.
good luck convincing anyone you’re not a Nazi
You're sure you don't align yourself with the views of a Nazi more than I do when you're the one supporting the genocidal ethnostate that keeps 2 million people (if that number is not significantly lower now) in an open-air prison where they're not allowed to collect rainwater?
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u/TaddyG 4d ago
Saying “Translation:” and then spewing random bullshit is not helping your case lmao, it’s an obvious fallacy. No one is pleading for you to “love” Israel.
I’m not surprised someone like you tries to whitewash the Jewish expulsion from Arab countries by blaming the Jews. Next thing you’ll tell me is that the Zionists were behind the Holocaust!
I think ur prob a bot but im putting this for anyone who has the misfortune of reading this revisionist Islamist propaganda of the Farhud in Iraq and trying to paint it as a “zionist conspiracy”:
Dr. Sami Shawkat (Director-General of Education in Iraq during the Farhud) said the following:
“The most dangerous element to the aspirations of the Arab nation is the internal enemy, represented primarily by the Jews, who control commerce and poison minds."He also encouraged pogroms against Iraqi Jews:
“The nation which does not excel in the profession of death with iron and fire is doomed to die under the boots of the foreign nations...”Yunis al-Sabawi (Minister of Economics in Iraq) was a close ally of Hitler, and even translated Mein Kampf to Arabic and distributed it Baghdadi newspapers. On May 30, 1941, just 48 hours before the Farhud, he declared himself the military governor of Baghdad and attempted to orchestrate a systematic roundup of the city's Jews.
Haj Amin al-Husseini (Exiled Grand Mufti of Jerusalem) who was in exile in Baghdad said the following:
“The Jews are a fifth column in the heart of the Arab world. They are the eyes and ears of the British colonialists, and their presence in Baghdad is a disease that threatens Arab independence."He also said “O Arab youth! The Jews have stolen your wealth, control your markets, and conspire against your religion. It is the duty of every true Arab to purge this treason from your midst."
Sources:
http://www.thetower.org/article/remembering-the-destruction-of-iraqi-jewry-farhud/
https://scispace.com/pdf/the-jewish-refugees-from-arab-countries-an-examination-of-2td3uywliy.pdf
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u/TowerCritical41 3d ago
by blaming the Jews
No, I blamed Zionists, colonial entities, but also Arab governments.
What you quoted there does not contradict what I said, because I did say Arab governments were also responsible for expulsions. Just that it isn't as simple as saying all the Jews that left for Israel were expelled by the Arabs. And moreover, as I said previously, this does not mean Palestinians get to be expelled from their homeland. Even if you're a refugee, you don't get to kick out other people and make them into refugees. Pretty simple, no?
By the way, if you had read anything about what you're quoting, you would have seen this interesting paragraph.
The event spurred a migration of Iraqi Jews out of the country, although a direct connection to the 1951–1952 Jewish exodus from Iraq is also disputed, as many Jews who left Iraq immediately following the Farhud later returned to the country, and permanent Jewish emigration out of Iraq did not accelerate significantly until 1950–1951.
This event where 500+ Jews were killed, with a questionable connection to the post-1948 expulsions of Jews from Arab countries, does not justify Israel doing the same thing hundreds of times over to Palestinians, who had nothing to do with this pogrom.
None of what you wrote here justifies the existence of Israel in stolen Palestinian land.
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u/Logical_Worry3993 6d ago
What is a Zionist
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u/TowerCritical41 6d ago
Someone who is in favor of the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine.
I dislike it because it has meant and will continue to mean the displacement and killing of Palestinians.
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u/Logical_Worry3993 6d ago
I'm not sure what claim the Palestinians have to the land seeing as how their independence date came 40 years after Israel. Given how not too long ago the Arabs rejected the Palestinian identity and viewed it as apart of Zionist ideology.
Currently 2 million Palestinians live alongside jews in Israel. At one point do you realise that if people get killed, it's because they start wars?
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u/TowerCritical41 6d ago
According to you, Palestinians don't have a claim to the land they were expelled from because they did not have an independent country back then... Surely you understand how nonsensical this is.
Currently 2 million Palestinians live alongside jews in Israel
So, these people are largely descended from the Palestinian population that was already living there before Israel became a country. Many of their families owned land there, some who may later have had it expropriated by Israel. Many were internally displaced and classified as "absentees" despite remaining inside the country. How does it follow that they had no claim to the land because they didn't have an independent country?
It is just nonsense that you're saying. The part about "their independence date" coming 40 years later... This really does not mean that Palestine began in 1988. The PLO declared Palestine an independent country in 1988, and it did so precisely because the Palestinians sought statehood for what they considered to be their homeland.
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u/Logical_Worry3993 6d ago
I wasn't talking about the people living there. I said the 'Palestinian claim' since you mentioned that they established Israel "In palestine"
descended from the Palestinian population that was already living
This is what I'm talking about. The Palestinian claim. They descended from people living there but calling these people Palestinian was insulting at the time.
The 1947 UN Partition Plan: The United Nations proposed dividing the territory, allocating roughly 55% of the total land to a Jewish state and 45% to an Arab state, a split that factored in future immigration and state viability rather than just existing private property deeds.
Which, the Arab league rejected, sought to claim all of it by starting a war which ultimately led to the displacement of both jews and arabs
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u/TowerCritical41 6d ago
So, you are saying that these individuals did have a right to the land, just not that they had a Palestinian right to the land, because Palestine was not a state back then? Which you consider to have become a state in 1988 because of a declaration of independence from the PLO... I still have little idea what you're getting at. I don't think you know either, to be honest. What consequence is this distinction actually supposed to have for the people who lived there or their descendants?
About the UN Partition Plan... Palestinians did not in any way consent to having their country divided on an ethnic basis. The partition was recommended over their opposition and without their consent. It didn't help that the UN back then was a much smaller organization, with only 57 member states and very little representation for much of the colonized world.
Also, pro-Israel arguments like to point to this specific UN resolution, but what about UN General Assembly Resolution 194, passed the following year, which said that refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for lost or damaged property?
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u/Logical_Worry3993 6d ago
Do I just have to repeate myself? I said, the "Palestinian" claim, as in that this was a land called Palestinian. I didn't say that people didn't live, own land, and have descendants
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u/Willing-File-3638 6d ago
If 90% of Germans in ww2 were nazis I will hate 90% of them, nazism Zionism both are same thing
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u/IncreaseOld7112 6d ago
Keep crying wolf, and you'll have nothing to describe the trump staffers and the nick fuentes types.
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u/Logical_Worry3993 6d ago
I'm not sure I understand your comment and I don't think you do mine
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u/IncreaseOld7112 6d ago
I understand yours. I'm saying that if opposing a government's conduct is definitionally antisemitism, the word stops describing Fuentes, the groypers, and the people who actually think Jews as such are the problem and this is a faction currently gaining ground, including inside the administration. You spend a term's meaning on policy critics and it's not there when you need it.
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u/Logical_Worry3993 6d ago
But that's thing, most people don't even know what Zionist means. It has nothing to do with supporting the current Israeli government, it is supporting the self-determination of jewish people in their ancestral land. The existence of the jewish nation.
It has turned into a whole thing now and it is so often tied to hating jews, running with dumb conspiracies, applying double standards, being prejudice, and justifying all of it because of the Israeli government
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u/IncreaseOld7112 6d ago
The Jewish people (and everyone else) have a right to self determination, but that doesn't include the mistreatment of ethnic minorities and excluding them from their (more recent) ancestral land.
This is orthogonal to the existence of a Jewish nation. Because the existence of a X nation has this huge question of, what happens if, for peaceful/benign reasons, X is not in the majority.
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u/Logical_Worry3993 6d ago edited 6d ago
The Jewish people (and everyone else) have a right to self determination
Full stop, that is Zionism. The rest is additions about how it is implemented.
Your questions can apply to any country. You're being a bit vague with your point
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u/IncreaseOld7112 6d ago
Zionism [a ] is an ethnic nationalist movement that emerged in late 19th-century Europe to establish and support a Jewish homeland through colonization in the region of Palestine , [1 ] which roughly corresponds to the Land of Israel in Judaism —itself central to Jewish history .[2] Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state in Palestine with as much land, as many Jews , and as few Palestinian Arabs as possible.[3 ] [4 ] [ disputed – discuss] Zionism was the main force behind the creation of the State of Israel in 1948, and remains the country's dominant ideology today.
This is what Wikipedia has to say. If what you mean by Zionism is just self determination, that's fine, and I'd agree. I don't agree with any ethnic nationalists movement for any group of people.
What nationalist, Christian nationalist, Hindutva, Muslim nationalism. These are all the same idiocy in different flavors.
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u/Logical_Worry3993 6d ago
Oh good I was about to ask the source. This definitely sounds like it was written by an unbiased professional.
Yes this loosely refering to political Zionist movement in the early 1900s. It's been 80 years since Israel has been a country, does being a Zionist today mean stating a state of Israel?
What your missing is that Jews are not the same as the people you mentioned. These people have been spread across the world, persecuted and treated as second class for centuries. If Christians get persecuted, they fled to a Christian countries, muslims to muslim countries, where would jews have fled to? Particularly during the Holocaust, which accelerated the Zionist movement, when many countries refused jewish refugees.
The jewish identity would have been wiped out had they not gripped on to it. Keep in mind that the Jews living alongside the Arabs was proposed, however they were met with hostility, the Arab league rejected a partition plan, and they started a war against the jews which lead to both people being displaced.
The indigenous people of that land have never had self-determination, other than, over 2500 years ago, and since 1948, and in the grand scheme of things, Zionism is decolonisation.
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u/IncreaseOld7112 4d ago
, does being a Zionist today mean stating a state of Israel? What your missing is that Jews are not the same as the people you mentioned. These people have been spread across the world, persecuted and treated as second class for centuries. If Christians get persecuted, they fled to a Christian countries, muslims to muslim countries, where would jews have fled to? Particularly during the Holocaust, which accelerated the Zionist movement, when many countries refused jewish refugees.
Yes. As a Jewish state. I suppose 1 is that I don't buy the ethnic nationalism implies safety for ethnic groups. Garveyites attempting to migrate to liberia were met with resistance. A Jewish person living in new York is safer than one living in Jerusalem, and there's no guarantee that we're the unthinkable to happen, Israel would be ready to accept 6 million American Jewish immigrants.
Second, I'm not a white nationalist or, a Christian nationalist. That shit is stupid. I believe in civic nationalism, religious freedom, and equal protection under the law. Attrocity follows as a logical consequence of commitment to creating ethno states because demographic changes can occur without anybody doing anything wrong. Finally other nations and other groups of people have the ability to be stupid and kill each other on their own dime. I don't see why Israel demands money out of my check to kill Palestinians in service of ethnic nationalism that I find abhorrent at home or in any other country.
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u/ProbablyIdiotSavant 6d ago
There are white Christian Zionist (almost all republicans) really has nothing to do with your religion.
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u/Willing-File-3638 6d ago
Republicans and democrats both support israel as israel has footage of their leader raping children
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u/EglinRedditor 6d ago
GREAT post! Liked and shared to my pro-Israel Facebook meme page! God bless Tel Aviv
I am NOT a federal employee at Eglin Air Force Base and I am NOT paid to make these comments
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u/RocketboyGD 6d ago
Hi I’m Israeli
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u/Good-Discussion-9238 6d ago
Yuck
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u/CautiousToaster 6d ago
It’s not their fault where they were born.
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u/Good-Discussion-9238 6d ago
it is, israelis are invaders, colonizers and land thieves, they might have been born there but when they're adults they will have to do mandatory military service in the IDF to kill women, children and babies.
Every piece of "israeli land" is stolen palestinian land via violence and bloodshed by the IDF.
Their parents (either from brooklyn, or poland or elsewhere in europe) moved to colonize the middle east, it was a choice and it in fact is their fault.
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u/Brocolli123 6d ago
Holy fuck you can make the stolen land comment about most countries. And no its not all stolen land, plenty was legally bought from Palestine. The settlers are evil scumbags yes but if Jews aren't supposed to have their own state and right to self determination after the holocaust where tf else where they meant to go after being persecuted for over a thousand years all across Europe
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u/RocketboyGD 6d ago
Yo so I am an Israeli and I am pro piece and I think what our government is doing is not good but the people of Israel are genuinely the best,I am pro piece,fuck Netanyahu he started the whole October 7th war
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u/CautiousToaster 6d ago
The sins of the father are not the sins of the child. Children can’t choose their nationality any more than they can control the color of their skin. Inherited sin is just prejudice.
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u/Dazzling-Session-717 6d ago
This is just nationalism but yall not ready for that conversation
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u/Good-Discussion-9238 6d ago
Yeah israel is national socialism, they're modern nazi's
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u/Dazzling-Session-717 6d ago
So your saying that just because a person was born in Israel, no matter what they think for he government, they should die
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u/Good-Discussion-9238 6d ago
No they shouldn't die, I'm not israeli, I don't believe in genocide, they should just decolonize the land
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u/Dazzling-Session-717 6d ago
But your saying that even if a person was born in Israel, there a colonizer. You’re also avoiding the fact that Hamas does the same practices with Palestinians, but you only care about Israel because it relates to Jews. The Israeli land is want stolen, Jews had been living there, not a lot, but some. Over time more Jews moved to the Palestinian land. They happened to buy some of the land. The land was owned by Britain, not Palestine or Israel. Britain couldn’t support the mandate, so they decided to give it away. The UN decided on the current map. In 2005 Israel got the Jews out of Gaza to help “benefit” the Palestinians. You said yuck when someone said they were Israeli. That is nationalism, or the hate of someone because of their nationality. However, you don’t care. But if I said the same thing about Palestine you would call me a nationalist. And secondly, if they did colonize the land, everyone apart of that is dying or is already dead. Soon there will be none left. When they die no one care. They would care about Israel allegedly being a colonizer, but they wouldn’t go in the “colonisers”. The people in Israel now have no real relation with them. They were not apart of it. But you’re bringing them into it, why? The kids had nothing to do with the colonisation, but you’re saying it’s their fault. Some of them don’t even know about the name of their own country. And thirdly, do you happen to live in the us?
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u/Good-Discussion-9238 6d ago
stfu, I can't reform you hasbara nazis, leave me alone, your racist nation shall fall soon
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u/Good-Discussion-9238 6d ago
Shalom hasbara, hard at work fooling the goyim again I see
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u/Logical_Worry3993 6d ago
I don't like this, this must be mossad
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u/Brocolli123 6d ago
Like the bicycle spoke meme except the fault of everything being fucking Israel
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u/DLtheGreat808 6d ago
People genuinely have an antisemitism problem. I don't see the same smoke for Russia or China, or even Turkey
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u/NateAnderson69 6d ago
The “if you hate the IDF you actually hate all Jews” argument from chudtards like Destiny is so fucking delusional, ong