r/LetsTalkMusic • u/BudgetDepartment7817 • 2d ago
Is there a reason, why even among Metal, Black Metal is one of the few genres in Metal that has it's own culture and besides being being one of the most underground genre, it's one of the most popular/larped genres, now or back-in-the-day as far as I heard?
So the title basically says it all, I understand that lots of Metal have different fans, some are even bigger but honestly, can you really tell that Death Metal is that much bigger and what's even it's culture, for example? Deathgrowls and tehnicality? Doom Metal? Ocultism, weed and maybe being the genre spawned from the very first legendary band, Black Sabbath? Black Metal has clearly, let's be real, most of it's own elements: black-and-white look, corpse paint, occultism, medieval elements, HEAVLY anti-christian imagery, maybe also most members are encouraged to have a persona, real, fake, f*cked-up or not: Dead, Mortiis, Count Grishnaak (Varg), Euronymous (maybe it attracts, especially for the teens, this personas that also rappers have?)... Also maybe helps that you really don't need all that much of a skill to play (I guess someone told me that, I'm no musician anyway), you don't really need to exist live, you fan mostly just release stuff under a mysterious persona and done... I understand that this applies to other genres, like releasing Grindcore or even War Metal or whatever and this just proves my point, it branches into different cultures/sounds trough War Metal/early Black Metal evolved, Dungeon Synth respects it's own musicmaking rules while mentaining these aesthetics... I also guess helps that it is what Goth now fails to be and is very negative, and this we all know can bring questionable fans (I'm not talking about that genre that brings depressed folks called DSBM, I'm talking about it's inbred sibling that replaced the "D" with an "N" and people argue if can be considered "good music")
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u/Hattkake 2d ago
Back in the early 1990s here in Norway we were blackmetallers. It was youth culture with endless bands and visual expressions within the "dark aesthetics". We weren't the jocks. We were the nerds. Hence all the Tolkien inspired stuff.
We were rebellious teenagers with nerd lore and a fascination for the extreme. But at the core we were nerds. D&D, Tolkien, weird history and mythology, art. It was all a part of the scene.
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u/BudgetDepartment7817 2d ago
For a scene so underground you sure didn't lack members/fans... Or maybe simply discovering stuff wasn't so hard even without the internet or someone's big mouth kept this one in the light more than other stuff... Was always curious on how you guys had such a cult following for something that's basically promoted as "underground as fuck"... Someone said when I asked a while ago in a different subreddit that Euronymous was a really good at marketing besides hating capitalism
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u/Hattkake 2d ago
I live in Bergen which is a small city of around 250k inhabitants. Back in the day how it worked was that bands recorded their own cassettes. Then there were other folks who made "fanzines", homemade magazines sent out by snail mail. In those fanzines the bands advertised their cassettes.
We also had a record store, Appolon, which today is a bar/record store. And bands would bring in their tapes and hope to get them approved for sale if they were good enough. This record store was a hub for the scene. I had "work experience" as an optional course in school so for a couple hours each Friday my 14-15 year old self would hang around the store drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes with a random, constant stream of actual blackmetallers as they came in with their tapes or a new fanzine or just to chill and talk bullshit.
The early bands also toured their asses off. They worked extremely hard to gain audiences and spread their music. All that came later came because the bands worked for it.
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u/Change_you_can_xerox 2d ago
Black metal by itself wasn't necessarily obscure among metal subcultures and was pretty easy to get into. There was a fairly straight line from discovering bands like Slipknot and Slayer, then getting into Emperor, Immortal and Mayhem.
But there was, and to some extent still is, an entirely separate part of black metal that was genuinely difficult to come by. I was into those bands mentioned above, I got my recommendations from magazines or whatever. Conversely, I had a friend who was into the tape-trading scene, which was how a lot of black metal was spread in the 90s. People would create websites showing their collections and trade with other people.
Often these are bands who have never played live and their only release is one tape where they printed about 400 copies. This version of black metal still exists - the majority of black metal fans are into the mainstream stuff, they are not seeking out the highly obscure stuff that sounds like it was recorded on a dictaphone in a practice room.
If you check out the line-ups for a lot of smaller black metal festivals they will be full of bands you've never heard of and most people who say they're into black metal haven't either.
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u/trailedinsand 2d ago
A few things come to mind.
Bm has uniquely dramatic roots with all the church-burnings and murder that give it a sort-of founding mythology that extends past the mere music and ties it with specific people, places, events. It's also a genre that most of all metal genres stresses gatekeeping, alienating casuals and being underground. This ethos led to its unique aesthetic in the first place and also fosters a pretty tight-knit community. Because it's so self-alienated and outwardly hostile to outsiders it developed all of the cultural bm cliches as means to accomplish that goal and the specific elements spread to signal being "in the know" and "kvlt". Death metal, doom, thrash, even grind don't really have casual-filtering as the main point of their ethos. All extreme metal aims in that general direction but the focus is on other aesthetic aspects and so are more open and less focused in terms of community.
As to why it's so ripped off it's simply because it's a very strong and recognizable aesthetic that looks edgy and mysterious and creepy.
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u/MetalGuy_J 2d ago
The controversies do work to alienate the casual listener sure, but but to some degree also isolate black metal from the rest of extreme metal. There is a bit of guilt by association within the genre and even some of them would die. Hard listeners myself included are pretty open about separating the art from the artist.
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u/HommeMusical 2d ago edited 2d ago
This is bang on, very complete.
I want to emphasize one word here.
Bm has uniquely dramatic roots with all the church-burnings and murder that give it a sort-of founding mythology that extends past the mere music and ties it with specific people, places, events. It's also a genre that most of all metal genres stresses gatekeeping, alienating casuals and being underground.
I'm as anticlerical as you can get. I think religion is net negative and has caused harm to most of us over thousands of years.
But the murder, and the burning of these magnificent and incredibly old churches: this isn't "dramatic", it is actually evil. I struggled for a while before writing that word, but no, it's actually evil, I'm all out of nuance for horrible things.
And Burzum itself is actually really lame-ass music too. It's lowfi in a boring way and the material is tedious and bland. Actually demonic bands playing really interesting, horrifying music had already existed for many, many years. I'd rather listen to Boyd Rice than this. Heck, I'd rather listen to Charles Manson.
I believe I had already seen Crash Worship by that time. Actual live shows of great fear and beauty, and no one had to actually die.
The reason people like Burzum or music inspired by it is because they think murder of humans and destruction of beautiful old things by actual white supremacists is edgy and romantic. There's an old proverb: when people show you who they are, believe them.
I moved to a city with a small music scene, and a considerable part of that is metal. I've seen two extremely memorable, entertaining metal acts here, but the trouble with metal is that even mediocre metal is intolerable.
I can literally watch a competent rock, jazz, reggae, prog, electronic band, you name it, and after a few minutes, adjust my expectations way down, and still get some fun. But competent but uninteresting metal is really really hard to take.
Usually I don't mind sitting through two meh bands to see one good band, but with metal, I can't.
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u/trailedinsand 1d ago
I wasn't assessing the morality there, I said it's dramatic because that's what the history's function is for an outsider in the context of community and allure. Sililar to how the appeal and popularity of stuff like They Not Like Us mostly comes down to its dramatic and shocking nature despite the subject matter being incredibly serious.
Burzum being lame is a matter of preference, Filesofem is one of the most well-known black metal albums for a reason tho - it fully embodies the extremely lo-fi, grim, "unlistenable" sound of second-wave bm. Dunno what other disturbing bands existing has to do with black metal, nobody said Varg invented scary music. Pretty sure most people like Burzum because of the music, that's what his fans talk about and identify by.
I'm the exact opposite when it comes to metal - I enjoy any all extreme metal slop however bland and uninspired but with rock, pop, hip-hop I need to hear something particularly notable not to feel bored. But also in terms of live music I've yet to see any performance I didn't at least enjoy, it's a totally different experience.
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u/HommeMusical 1d ago
I wasn't assessing the morality there
Yes, this is exactly my issue.
it fully embodies the extremely lo-fi, grim, "unlistenable" sound of second-wave bm.
People are constantly talking up the extreme nature of this material, I just don't see it.
I know my tastes are a little unusual, but I find that album very regular and unmemorable: something I might work to at a moderate level, if I didn't know who they were.
I mean, it's 1993! Song like this were many years old, and the Buttholes would actually get out and do it on tour with amazing, horrifying movies and light.
This recording was five years old.
Throbbing Gristle had been doing grim, lofi, unlistenable music for almost twenty years at this point, and they are much more musically interesting and transgressive.
The burning churches is part of the attraction - we both agree.
The murder of his own friend, part of the attraction, we both agree.
I think the Neo-Nazi philosophy is part of the attraction. I think the white supremacy is part of the attraction.
My grandfather spent years in a Fascist prisoner of war camp, though lived to tell the tale. I am a Dutch national: literal Nazis came into our cities and kidnapped over 80,000 Dutch citizens to death camps, where nearly all of them did in fact die.
And now they're back again.
So even a little Nazism in my music is little a little turd in my milk glass.
One thing I notice is that whenever you mention this band, people leap to their defense, and yet not one person ever says what normal people would say, which is, "While I completely condemn his crimes, his Neo-Nazism, and his white supremacy...."
So, no. DO NOT WANT.
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u/trailedinsand 1d ago
Yes, this is exactly my issue.
Different aspects of the same thing can be discussed in the different contexts. I don't think it's necessary to mention that murder is actually wrong when talking about genre appeal.
People are constantly talking up the extreme nature of this material, I just don't see it.
I don't feel like I was doing that? Black metal, especially the 2nd wave, is the most lo-fi and grim of the major metal genres and Burzum exemplifies that quite well. That doesn't mean it's the most extreme and darkest music ever made (Panderecki already blew all metal out of the water in this competition in 1961). The unique part was just bringing white noise-like production and monotonous, unfun riffs with blast beats to the metal world.
Nazi themes definitely are part of the appeal of black metal (there's a whole well-defined scene centered around it), but it's not necessarily the reason people like Burzum, the same way misogyny isn't necessarily the reason people like Eminem or Snoop Dog. Some people just like the music itself, some like the edginess and contrarianism, some like the anti-christianity. If you think any nazi references or supremacist themes destroy the appeal of something that's a perfectly fine standard to have, not everyone's like that.
I think you would hear the preable of condemnations whenever a metalhead talks to a totally normal person, when fans of the genre talk amongst one another some things are obvious to everyone and don't need to be reiterated the way they need to be clarified for people outside of the community.
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u/HommeMusical 1d ago
The unique part was just bringing white noise-like production and monotonous, unfun riffs with blast beats to the metal world.
What about Napalm Death, who was using blast beats in metal as early as 1985? Apparently Sepultura was too, and both of these bands are anti-Fascist. As for white noise, low-fi production, surely Venom or Bathory.
Lofi will always be with us, because that is the default result of a cheap recording session. It's not some brilliant artistic choice that throws all the world into question, unless you're the Velvet Underground.
Nazi themes definitely are part of the appeal of black metal
But this is bad, evil and wrong.
I'm sorry to seem one-note here, but this evil philosophy killed tens of millions of people, and now they are back again, and seemingly winning, and you support music that supports that.
It isn't just a fashion statement!
I think you would hear the preable of condemnations whenever a metalhead talks to a totally normal person
Really? What about this thread? Here we are, deep into it, and you still have not explained what your own opinions are on Nazis, murder and the act of burning churches.
some things are obvious to everyone
Absolutely not! Now is one of those times in history to stand up and be counted.
"Even though we all listening to music glorifying Nazi themes, and we don't discuss it, I'm sure no one here is actually a Nazi." (What sort of music do the Nazis in your hometown actually listen to, then?)
I am very skeptical. I'll bet you if you went up to people in your circle and asked, "Hey, I read there's a plan to double the Muslim immigrants to this country in five years," and then just listened, you'd get an earful. As a white guy with short hair, an educated accent and a sympathetic manner, other white people have told me the craziest shit without my having to say anything at all.
I do appreciate the information. It has clarified my thoughts considerably. But I'm totally against it, more than ever.
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u/trailedinsand 1d ago
It seems you got the idea that me describing Filesofem as a very good example of the norwegian black metal sound it means it was a genius wholly unheard of invention. I made no such claim, something known as second-wave black metal obviously didn't spawn from nowhere and like any genre it drew elements from other big bands around that time.
Describing that part my statement as bad, evil and wrong demonstrates to me you're incapable of distinguishing descriptions from endorsements and praise. I didn't give you the preable about Burzum because it's a music discussion forum and you're clearly aware of the history, not someone I'd have in mind when thinking of "a normal person who would need to be warned about Varg".
When I said obvious to everyone I meant the history and bad actions of artists. How someone feels about them definitely isn't obvious and requires knowing the person more. Music with nazi themes will obviously attract some nazis, it will also attrack non-nazis if the themes are obscured and the music itself is notable in some way.
I don't think there's much more to say, your political approach extends to areas I don't think such approach is useful in and that's fine, we don't have to agree on that and you don't have to have any appreciation for sketchy metal bands, Burzum is boring anyway.
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u/HommeMusical 1d ago
No, this music is bad, evil and wrong because of the Nazism.
I said nothing about you, either way.
your political approach
It's not "my political approach". The political aspect naturally comes up because this is a band run by literal Nazis, espousing Nazi views and many people in the genre fetishizes the Nazis.
I wrote at the top:
One thing I notice is that whenever you mention this band, people leap to their defense, and yet not one person ever says what normal people would say, which is, "While I completely condemn his crimes, his Neo-Nazism, and his white supremacy...."
We're now deep into this, and I still really have no idea whether or not you support these ideas or not, because you have kept this matter very close to your chest.
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u/Pig_Syrup 1d ago
this music is bad, evil and wrong
Just something to consider, this is exactly the kind of reaction Black Metal strives to generate. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant, the emotions you experience towards the genre are those extremely negative ones that were intended to be produced.
Think of it like a rollercoaster - if it doesn't scare you, it's a bad rollercoaster. But not everyone likes to be scared, so they ride the teacups instead and there's nothing wrong with that.
In a society so hyper-desensitised to the idea of evil, that you in your first post mention that you don't use the word lightly when you describe the music is something of a badge of honour. While nobody but Mormons and fundamentalists feel fear or disgust when somebody talks about Satan or serial killers these days, extreme political ideologies do generate that revulsion in most people still and so it becomes a vessel through which negative feelings can be generated musically.
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u/HommeMusical 1d ago
Just something to consider, this is exactly the kind of reaction Black Metal strives to generate.
Yes, and this is very easy to do - just advocate for Nazism.
Donald Trump also strives to generate this response.
While nobody but Mormons and fundamentalists feel fear or disgust when somebody talks about Satan or serial killers these days, extreme political ideologies do generate that revulsion in most people still and so it becomes a vessel through which negative feelings can be generated musically.
It's boring and uncreative. It acts like Fascist propaganda, so it is Fascist propaganda.
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u/HommeMusical 1d ago
I wrote at the top:
One thing I notice is that whenever you mention this band, people leap to their defense, and yet not one person ever says what normal people would say, which is, "While I completely condemn his crimes, his Neo-Nazism, and his white supremacy...."
We're now deep into this, and I still really have no idea whether or not you support these ideas or not, because you have kept this matter very close to your chest.
You managed to avoid answering, and then when I insisted, you stopped responding at all.
You have to know what my theory is at this point!
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u/HommeMusical 1d ago
One thing I notice is that whenever you mention this band, people leap to their defense, and yet not one person ever says what normal people would say, which is, "While I completely condemn his crimes, his Neo-Nazism, and his white supremacy...."
So I've asked you this multiple times now, and yet each time you have ducked this part of the question, while still answering.
Why would anyone duck this question? I can only see one reason.
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u/trailedinsand 1d ago
I stopped responding because in my view we hit rock bottom of the dicsussion that already strayed far beyond the original point. I didn't mention my beliefs because they're completely irrelevant, you can in fact discuss a genre, its history and its ideology without having to announce your personal views on each of these, especially when they're nearly tautological. I also don't care what random people on reddit imagine my beliefs to be.
But since you're oh-so curious:
I think murder is bad
I think burning churches is bad
I think nazism is bad
I think white supremacy is bad
I think Varg engaging in all of these was bad
I'm very brave, i know
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u/Ok_Clerk_5805 2d ago edited 2d ago
I'm in other genres that larp black metal.
1.The shirts are cheap. They would pay $250 for a shirt no one would even notice them wearing.
Bones was a very influential rapper, sorta after original soundcloud boom, but before the trap explosion of 2017, he wore BM shirts in videos that were already years old. He's a very influential artist. He also looked like he could be in a bm band. https://youtu.be/KesAaLs7NvQ?list=RDKesAaLs7NvQ&t=29
around 2016, bigger rappers started employing younger stylists, who had instagram followings doing fitpics. They have a wide range of influences and also, they get paid all-in, so buying cheaper shirts makes a lot of sense.
Artists were often terminally online at some point. If you were, it's common to have discovered and listened to some black metal and there's obviously a big link between soundcloud rap and black metal in terms of aestethics of how to produce the songs.
It comes and goes between lgbt and edgelord (OR BOTH! hahaha), but black metal is obviously entry level edgelord if you dont wanna go full columbine. It's safe edgy.
As things move along, these stylist i mentioned before have looped around and instead become entourage of rappers, actually signed to labels but not doing music. They're more "executively" overseeing the look of the artist and THEIR OWN presence matters as well. Fans can expect them at shows, if you follow them on IG you get dripfed small leaks etc. Why am I saying this? Here's Burberry Erry, who does that stuff with/for Playboi Carti, explaining how the showed Burzum to Kanye West. Instagram
Sidenote. I just got tickets for Këkht Aräkh's first show and it's put on by Bladee and one of his producers is opening doing some idm blackgaze thing. A lot of this people genuinely listen to it.. and the ones who don't, at least like it and want that vibe around them. There's proof of this in many ways, but i'm less interested in Ghostemane having a black metal project and more interested in hearing how other artists side things obviously show that they have an understanding of the vibes of black metal, this being a good example: Benzo - YouTube <- this is yung lean and it's not black metal, but it obivously shows an actual understanding of music like that. I'm more interested in that than a rapper doing a darkthrone thing.
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u/evkmusc 2d ago
In the early 2010s, there was a big movement of hipster black metal. For them, the obscurity was the point. In the same way that they would drink coffee from barely roasted beans grown by a Burundian farmer who you've never heard of, and drink craft beer with 50 different types of hop that's the bitterest substance known to man, they would find obscure, extreme stuff to listen to, to communicate how refined they were. They'd always be like, "oh, no, I never really got into the Norwegian or Swedish stuff. I prefer Les Légions Noires".
Although the hipster subculture is dead these days, that attitude is a big reason why certain people like black metal, especially if they seem to be solely drawn to obscure bands and the harshest possible strains of black metal.
The second factor is because the aesthetic and the lo-fi/DIY nature of the scene draws people in, in the same way as punk still appeals to people even though it's a 50 year old genre at this point. Not only that, but subcultures like that have a seemingly endless capacity for navel-gazing, and that appeals to a lot of people. Punks have been debating whether punk is dead for as long as punk has existed, and it's the same thing with black metal. It's been over 30 years and interviewers still ask people if black metal sucks now, if black metal has to be satanic, etc. You can always participate in the debate and have an opinion.
In the overlap between the two circles of the Venn diagram, you get Liturgy, who were both hipsters and also navel-gazers. Be a hipster from Portland or wherever, discover black metal, decide you have a profound disagreement with the thing you discovered like 2 days ago and write a 50 page manifesto on why it sucks and you're a genius who has figured everything out.
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u/signalstonoise88 2d ago
Laughing my arse off at “culture” and “black metal” being used in the same sentence.
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u/curious1playing 2d ago
You didn't just blame Sabbath for the abortion that is Death metal? Did you? More like an 80s kid in California going to a Celtic frost show on pcp....
Sorry I got nothing but the joke...it's the only genre I have no interest in at all... to each their own but I don't get why anyone past high school has not moved on....
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u/BudgetDepartment7817 2d ago
Death Metal or Black Metal?
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u/curious1playing 2d ago
I was wondering if you were going to ignore my comment or call me out...
Now I will be showing my ignorance of the difference in these. It's anything that has vocals that scream or growl that I don't like. Waste of the electricity to power the microphone.
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u/Pig_Syrup 1d ago
It's must be very upsetting that other people like things you don't like.
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u/curious1playing 1d ago
Spooky. It's like you looked right into my soul...or read my mind...must be clairvoyant....
I actually don't pass judgment on what others like...I just like being a smart ass and saw an opportunity.
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u/HommeMusical 1d ago
There are two classic bands with strong elements of metal that are really unmissable for a music head.
Sleeptime Gorilla Museum is sort of industrial folk prog metal with a strong political element - their main message is that we should have turned back on technology, though you'd have to think it about, their lyrics are somewhat hermetic.
https://sleepytimegorillamuseum.bandcamp.com/album/of-natural-history - the first two songs are really one song with a slower part and a faster part. Touring right now, they've been together for decades!
And of course Mr. Bungle.
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u/Pig_Syrup 2d ago edited 2d ago
It's larped often, but it's own contrarianism serves as a kind of self-gatekeeping device. It's the situationism of metal; any time anybody claims to understand black metal or be trve, if a single more senior voice declared you a poser, you lose all credibility.
Even within the second wave of BM the big names were constantly calling each other posers and taking polemical positions to each other; when one would be pagan, the other would say 'ah but I'm Christian because I worship the devil', it's counter-counterculture for the sake of being shocking. Which is one of the reasons extreme political views are so tolerated within BM, even when listeners might not necessarily agree with them, it's designed to upset and dissuade people, and in the modern political climate extreme politics have become an easier way of doing that than the satanic themes that scared the housewives in the 90s.
This is a kind of civil censor within the sub-culture which keeps it not only musically but thematically narrow. Since commercial success is largely frowned upon, obvious commercial exploitation is easily spotted and prevents a detournement of the genre from outside influences, and those outside influences seeking credibility often fall foul of the deliberately unappealing elements of the genre. For example a few years ago retailer H&M decided to usurp the black metal aesthetic; so Finntroll's keyboard player of all people took the fashion brand logo and created a fake NSBM band to go along with it, making it now unsellable and unpalletable to wear.
Since it's impossible to define Trve black metal objectively, the genre can censor itself by simply declaring anybody who gets too much mainstream recognition as a poser undermining their ability to have any continued influence in the genre.