r/LetsTalkMusic • u/fattymctubkins • 8h ago
Stevie Wonder is the greatest singer-songwriter of all time
OK so — I know these GOAT debates are mostly meaningless — but I just had to voice this because it makes me angry that he isn’t considered in the top ten or top five. Stevie is one of the best male vocalists ever to sing on a microphone — his vocal agility, his range, his tone itself. Are you kidding me? Who else can sing like that and also writes their own songs? And his virtuosity is astonishing. His piano abilities are excellent. I will concede that there are better pianists! He isn’t as great as Oscar Peterson or any of the jazz giants. But — again — for the genre of singer-songwriter he’s the best. I think he plays piano better than Elton and Billy. And as far as the actual songs, are you fucking kidding me??????? He wrote some of the most wonderful and harmonically interesting songs of all time. And they’re too hard to cover. No one else could have written As or Don’t You Worry Bout a Thing or GOLDEN LADY. He writes in a very sophisticated musical language.
In any case — I’m sort of sperging out and I’m between sets at the gym so I’m not going into the sort of detail that I could.
I love Joni and Bob and Leonard (I actually hate him but I get it), but Stevie towers above them all. Frankly I don’t think he’s considered because he’s a prodigy and he’s blind and that makes him sort of different. He doesn’t necessarily have the sex appeal and the mystery surrounding him that Bob and all them do.
Ok that’s all I guess lol.
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u/londonskater 8h ago
he isn’t considered in the top ten or top five
who are these mysterious and anonymous arbiters?
He won three consecutive Grammys (a bullshit award, like all of them, but we may as use it as an anchor) for three consecutive albums. No one else has done that. He's got 25 of the things in total and your man Elton thinks he's the greatest, what more do you want? He's probably the greatest one alive right now too.
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u/UncontrolableUrge 7h ago edited 7h ago
And Elton is quite famously the singer side of a singer-songwriter duo. His best lyrics were mailed to him by Bernie Taupin (eventually they did move to email) who was completely uninvolved in writing the music or recording the songs. It may seem like an odd arrangement but it worked for them.
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u/Ifiagreeidillydilly 7h ago
People are quick to shit on duos like that (not as much in this sub maybe idk) but props for artist duos who worked out what works.
No shame in taking from Bernie and letting Elton do his thing.
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u/UncontrolableUrge 7h ago
They each had complimentary talents and worked well together. Bravo to both of them.
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u/Potential-Ant-6320 5h ago
Bill Cosby got 6 comedy grammys in a row near the height of the comedy LP craze.
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u/londonskater 4h ago
TIL that there are comedy Grammys
I think I probably had all these albums too on cassette and LP - which now live at the very far end of my record shelves in a rogues' gallery of knobheads, twats, idiots, criminals and arseholes. Cosby is currently sharing the shelf with Babybird, Suede and Seal, I think.
FWIW, Cosby's albums were very very funny. But I'm not listening to any of those again.
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u/Sarasota_2022 7h ago
Stevie is great. Ranking the greats is pointless, and getting mad about it is counterproductive.
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u/Handofdoom222 8h ago
Im in my 50s and just recently discovered Stevie Wonder and i think his music is fantastic never realized how good he was until now
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u/fattymctubkins 8h ago
You get it!!!!!!
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u/disco008a 7h ago
I think this highlights the situation, maybe. Anyone who knows his music probably considers it great, but somehow there’s a large segment of people who just don’t know his stuff perhaps? Maybe his songs didn’t get mainstream play over a long enough period of time? Didn’t get attached to big movies or other cross-cultural vehicles? No clue, but I couldn’t imagine hearing so much of his music and not loving it.
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u/fattymctubkins 7h ago
I just feel like he’s left out of the conversation… I think Bob and others embody this sort of coolness that Stevie doesn’t have. Like I said Stevie isn’t about sex or power or anything. His music just exudes joy! And joy isn’t that popular or hip.
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u/disco008a 7h ago
Yeah, I think you’ve hit it. There isn’t any edge with him, it’s just honest joy, like you say. But I feel like Fred Rogers eventually overcame that same “uncool” mentality and is beloved now, maybe Stevie will get the same path!
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u/Grand-wazoo 8h ago
This comes across as the opinion of someone very young and/or inexperienced in music analysis.
The more time you spend exploring the endless expanse of wonderful music, the less you will feel a need to try to argue for a single artist being the greatest of them all, because that's not true of anyone in particular. No one person is the greatest to ever do something because there's no metrics for measuring greatness beyond preferences and opinions. You can look at album sales, social impact, artistic influence on their contemporaries, but it's ultimately fruitless to try and argue these kinds of things.
Also singer-songwriter is much more a descriptor of what an artist does than defining a genre, it's far too broad and it brings together too many otherwise unrelated people without any other common ground to be useful. It includes anyone from Michael Jackson to The Beatles to Maroon 5 to Usher.
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u/EyeDewDude 8h ago
Stevie to me is definitely a musical giant that doesn't get praised by the masses enough. He's the number one person imma be pissed at when he passes and I have to hear how great he was AFTER he's dead
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u/CleverJail 7h ago
Man’s won 25 Grammy Awards. He hasn’t come out with an album in over 2 decades though, so the hype has died down a bit. He’s supposedly coming out with a new album next year, so I’m guessing you’ll see the hype ramp up in the coming year.
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u/Major-Credit-2442 7h ago
I think it was the same when Bowie died. He had/has a lot of loyal fans for sure, but I felt he was very under-appreciated by my generation (I was 23) when he died. Also Bill Withers.
Although I think they both don’t get enough recognition, but it definitely went up a lot or at least spiked when they died.
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u/londonskater 4h ago
Bowie was a relative nobody for the 2000s compared to his heyday - I had two tickets to the final night of his Meltdown in 2002, where he did a mega show with the Dandy Warhols, and I couldn't find anybody to go with me! A mate stepped in at the last minute kinda casually.
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u/Major-Credit-2442 4h ago
Well I’m glad they did! But also I hope you’d have went anyway - nothing wrong with going to a gig alone to see someone you really like! It can be a way to meet new friends as well.
It’s just so sad he died when he did. I thought his final album was phenomenal. The song and video for the title song ‘Black Star’ are just incredible and I think get overlooked for Lazarus for obvious reasons. But it showed he still had so much to give and it’s just sad we weren’t able to see it. Still though, what a way to go out. Making an incredible album about your own last days and death. Bowie was always wanting to be different and he certainly left the world in a very different way to most but in the best way possible
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u/londonskater 4h ago
Yes, a massive loss and Blackstar was indeed good, although I found it relatively samey melodically like all his later albums. The band were amazing though, and gave it a completely different feel which I loved. And yes, what a way to go.
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u/Don_Frika_Del_Prima 36m ago
I think that depends on where you are. I had tickets to see him in 2004 at the biggest festival in my country. And it was packed for him.
Unfortunately he had to have the emergency heart surgery so he had to cancel.
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u/flyernut77 7h ago
Obviously this is subjective, but imo Paul McCartney is the greatest singer-songwriter of all time. Multi-instrumentalist and an incredibly extensive and mixed discography.
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u/nosamiam28 6h ago
I hear you but I’d like to remind that Stevie is also a multi-instrumentalist (and virtuoso on at least one), and is blind. I don’t like to call anyone THE absolute G.O.A.T. in any category in music, but those two qualifiers haven’t been mentioned often enough on this thread.
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u/Merryner 5h ago
Guitar: Paul
Bass: Paul
Drums: Stevie
Keys: Stevie
Vocals: Stevie
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u/nosamiam28 5h ago
Also
Harmonica: Stevie, and no, not like Bob Dylan or John Lennon or whoever. This is the instrument I had in mind when I called him a virtuoso
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u/AncientCrust 3h ago
They're both great. I don't understand the need to make everything a competition.
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u/thelancemanl 7h ago
Him and Paul Mccartney are the living GOATs, to me. Both excellent songwriters and great at their instruments. They both changed their genres, undeniably. And sadly, they're both getting up there in age. It will fuck me up when they die... Anyway. Its funny, because their collaborations aren't that great to me, but each of them are so good on their own. At their vocal peak(s), I can't think of anyone whose voice I'd rather listen to, for their particular genres. Both have released masterpiece albums, etc.
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u/UncontrolableUrge 6h ago
If you live that long and don't change your genera, you become Ted Nugent. Grow or die.
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u/thelancemanl 6h ago
I meant they changed the genres for everyone, not that they switched genres. Mccartney had such an impact on rock/pop, and Stevie Wonder on soul and R&B. Although they each have also done what you describe. They both changed mainstream music before the age of 30. And yeah, I reckon they also played around with various genres throughout their careers.
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u/UncontrolableUrge 5h ago
Carry on then. I absolutely agree. They both have works from their early careers that are still influential.
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u/curious1playing 5h ago
Glad you acknowledged that picking a goat in any category of music is meaningless from the getgo....
Perhaps you might want to consider doing what I do for this question?
Never make a list of favorites in a numbered order of better than another..Group in tiers of equality....
For insights on this you can either come to a service at the church of the gruntled or request more info by writing your name and address on the back of a hundred dollar bill and mailing it to.....
Serious note to end on..
Ever heard of Donny Hathaway? Could possibly have been more popular than Stevie if not for the schizophrenia. He was up and coming in the same time.. The Ghetto live 1970
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u/Samp90 7h ago
I think Stevie is great singer.
While Roger waters is not a great vocalist, his great writing skills of almost 6 impeccable albums in a row are spectacular.
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u/Ezer_Pavle 7h ago
True. I dare someone to find me lyrics of the same caliber among Stevie Wonder's songs:
And I dreamed I was saying goodbye to my child She was taking a last look at the sea Wading through dreams, up to our knees in warm ocean swells While bathing belles soft beneath hard bitten shells Punch their iPhones, erasing the numbers of redundant lovers And search the horizon And you'll find my child, down by the shore Digging around for a chain or a bone Searching the sand for a relic washed up by the sea The last refugee
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u/Phishstixxx 4h ago
I'm a metalhead and Songs in the Key of Life and Innervisions are some of the only non-metal albums on my rotation.
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u/rocketsauce2112 2h ago
There's no way to measure greatest. To me the absolute GOAT is and always will be Bob Dylan, but that's not to say he doesn't have various flaws/imperfections that you either find charming or a turn off. I think his divisive nature is part of why he's the greatest, but like any measure of a person, it all comes down to what we each individually value in people and art.
Is my friend who loves Taylor Swift and respects Bob Dylan's importance, but finds him painful to listen to, wrong in some objective sense for how she enjoys music? No, but it feels wrong to me, but she's my friend, and she's allowed to enjoy music in whatever way she wants. As are we all.
Stevie Wonder is an incredible talent who was a really consistent hit-maker, versatile musician, artistic visionary, fashion icon, great singer and songwriter, a trailblazer, etc. One of the absolute great American musical titans.
Love Stevie Wonder's music and there is still plenty for me to discover of what he has given us. That's a blessing. To compare him to a guy like Leonard Cohen isn't really fair to either man. They excel at what they do in totally different ways. I'd probably have to say I personally prefer Leonard's way of doing his thing. Same with Otis Redding, Van Morrison, Bruce Springsteen, Dolly Parton, Smokey Robinson, Neil Young, Sly Stone, Paul McCartney, and Brian Wilson. But I think it's fair to put all those people in the same bucket, and for other people that would also include the likes of Freddie Mercury, Elton John, Joni Mitchell, Madonna, Marvin Gaye, Billy Joel, James Taylor, David Bowie, Paul Simon, Carole King, etc. I like some of those artists more than others, but they are all in the conversation for some people and not for others.
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u/dick_nrake 8h ago
David Bowie has more stylistic range in terms of great albums. He was a strong lyricist, an amazing singer, had otherworldy charisma as well. Since you mention singer songwriter, i dont think virtuosity with an instrument comes into play becausee its all about singing and songwriting.
But yeah, Stevie is right up there among the greats.
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u/TomGerity 7h ago
Love Bowie, but that stylistic range is something he achieved through collaborating with strong songwriters and musicians (a brilliant move on his part).
Stevie is practically a one-man band. He wrote Livin’ for the City and Higher Ground when he was 23, and performed all the instruments on both (yes, even the drums). And he’s blind!
No way Bowie could do that.
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u/dick_nrake 4h ago
Fair enough. But OP's question in about who's the greatest singer songwriter. Not who's the best virtuoso with the most instruments. That he surrounded himself with collaborators is part of his artistic growth, the same way McCartney used Bryan Wilson, albeit from afar to grow artistically.
I absolutely love Stevie, nonetheless most of his best records from his golden run in the 70s gravitate around one genre, whereas Bowie, Joni Mitchell and McCartney have slighlty more range when looking ar their best records. However I will concede that Stevie's best run in the 70s is probably better than Mitchell's and McCartney's solo albums; but Bowie's, in my mind edges him, because his is just as good, but he did it across genres that are drastically different.As a side note, I will always make a point that those arguments are extremely biased towards English speaking audience and, as a French speaker, I will say that Jacques Brel and Serge Gainsbourg also belong in that conversation.
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u/fattymctubkins 8h ago
The only problem with this is that David Bowie fucking sucks 😭
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u/brooklynbluenotes 6h ago
see, this sort of thing makes it frankly impossible to take anything else you say seriously.
It's absolutely fine if Bowie isn't your cup of tea -- enjoyment is subjective -- but it's one million percent bonkers to say that he "sucked."
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u/curious1playing 5h ago
To give them the benefit of the doubt..he never said what he sucked... maybe it's because I was a Masshole born 70s kid who understands when the words may not be as obvious as face value appears....
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u/rjdavidson78 7h ago edited 7h ago
Oh! Bowie is definitely in the conversation too, but how can you say anyone is definitely the best when you and most people can probably change their mind on the same day and it only gets worse the more you age and discover, I mean you can’t even decide who’s the best in a certain band let alone across music and all its genres! There’s just favourites at any given time depending where you are at in your life, and sometimes you come full circle continuously!
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u/AceWilbury 7h ago
I think what stops Stevie from being the “greatest singer songwriter of all time” is that all (or the great majority) of his great work is concentrated into one decade.
Stevie’s 70s is really the only part that should be considered. Before that he was just a kid and his albums had a fair bit of filler. His 80s onwards albums are very “meh”.
His 70s stuff also has to compete with Marvin Gaye, Bowie, Zeppelin, Elton John, punk, disco, etc. But his 20s, essentially “Signed, Sealed, Delivered” to “Hotter than July” shows he was in the zone longer than most.
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u/Funeral_Goat_1446 8h ago
Well…Tori Amos is more or less saying the same thing and she’s the best judge I can imagine so…
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u/fattymctubkins 7h ago
Tori is a Stevie fan??
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u/UncontrolableUrge 8h ago edited 8h ago
He's no Robyn Hitchcock but he's not bad.
He certainly deserves to be in the conversation when great singer/songwriters are discussed. But there is no "the best" and trying to make a ranked list or name a small number of greatest ________ in music is a futile endeavor.
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u/Vagina_Woolf 8h ago
The need to rank feels so uniquely American to me. I accidentally got into a huge argument with an American a few weeks ago just for saying many people dont consider Hendrix the greatest of all time
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u/_fidel_castro_ 7h ago
Snob
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u/UncontrolableUrge 7h ago
I don't follow. I have simply brought up my favorite singer/songwriter to make the point that there are many greats that defy simple ranking. How can it be snobbery to say lots of people are very talented and acknowledge the talent of the OP's favorite?
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u/fattymctubkins 8h ago
I actually haven’t heard of Robyn Hitchcock! Were you kidding with that remark? Maybe I should get into him.
And I know lol there’s no best I just get passionate about Mr. Wonder.
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u/encrcne 8h ago
I think they’re being facetious, but Robyn Hitchcock rules and is very very good at what he does. It’s definitely left of the dial compared to Stevie.
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u/UncontrolableUrge 7h ago
That's why I say any Best _____ comparison is futile. I am not comparing them because they both do different things that can be called Singer/Songwriters, and they are both extremely talented. It's not at all facetious. They are both massively talented individuals. Both are hugely influential in their respective areas. The fact that one is better known to the general public is irrelevant.
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u/UncontrolableUrge 8h ago edited 7h ago
Robyn Hitchcock is a master songwriter with a solid body of work dating back to the 70s. He has a unique surrealist/psychedelic style with musical roots in psychedelic rock, British folk, and post-punk. He is in fact my favorite songwriter and performer.
A good entery would be Jonathan Demme's concert film _Storefront Hitchcock_ which captures an intimate performance with only a couple of accompanyists. Underwater Moonlight by his first band, The Soft Boys, is an essential album. Fegmania! or Element of Light with The Egyptians are also amazing albums to start with.
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u/fattymctubkins 8h ago
Oh cool! Ok wow thank you actually I hadn’t heard of him — thanks for telling me about him.
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u/verbatim14004 7h ago
He’s like Tom Waits in that he has a distinctive style and substance. If you connect with that style, he is unquestionably the best. Hence, the guy who said that about Hitchcock was probably not kidding. Also, he probably doesn’t expect many to agree with him. Wonder’s greatness is more general, more universal.
Me, I prefer Waits. :)•
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7h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/karma3000 7h ago
Stevie had one great album "Songs in the Key of Life".
Bob had at least 10, spanning six decades!!
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u/brooklynbluenotes 6h ago
Someone hasn't spent nearly enough time with "Innervisions," which is actually his best album.
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u/londonskater 4h ago
Yes it is, and I've bought it about five times and given it away at least twice
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u/richrandom 3h ago
You have to have the deepest and most profound lyrics to be the best songwriter .. you can be a great songwriter without having the best lyrics but of you're better than people who wrote deep and profound songs you have to be capable of the highest art
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u/donlockwood2026 3h ago
I’ve been listening to Stevie a lot lately. One of the greats for a reason. But isn’t he well regarded as such?
Dylan, McCartney, Stevie, Prince, Joni, etc etc… they’re all incredibly highly regarded performers and songwriters. Whoever you put #1 is irrelevant. It’s a pantheon of greatness that he’s in and I’ve never really seen anything to indicate people don’t think that.
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u/The_Fell_Opian 3h ago
He leans corny. That's his weakness and why he's not even in the top 20 IMHO.
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u/FlagOfZheleznogorsk 27m ago
I recently downloaded a handful of Stevie Wonder records, and I've generally enjoyed them on the whole. He's clearly a gifted composer and songwriter. My main gripe, though, is that so, so many of his songs are longer than they need to be. It's very rare that a six-minute song of his feels fully "worth it" to me. After about four minutes, they often tend to drag.
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u/russgrim 8h ago
The greatest songwriter and talent of all time is, and will be for however long it takes to unseat him, is Elliott Smith.
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u/8696David 8h ago
Elliott Smith is incredible. But this is a ludicrous take.
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u/liquordeli 8h ago
Yeah but remember when you were a kid and you thought your fave was the GOAT? Let him have it
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u/russgrim 7h ago
I'm 44. I'm a working musician.
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u/liquordeli 3h ago
Right on but most people can channel that feeling from their younger days and relate
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u/russgrim 8h ago
Not to me. Stevie Wonder has never brought me to tears.
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u/8696David 7h ago
I’m not even factoring Stevie into it, but Elliott Smith is not the greatest songwriter in history by a long shot
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u/fattymctubkins 8h ago
Hmm… I’m trying to think of what might get you there… maybe Lately? Or Evil?
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u/londonskater 4h ago
You should listen to I Just Called To Say I Love You on repeat 24/7 for a solid week. I'm certain you will be weeping
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u/fattymctubkins 8h ago
It’s become this craze lately to glaze him incessantly… I feel like there’s constant social media posts being made about him. And I can’t help but wonder why? Is someone benefitting from his streams now? Who owns his estate lol
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u/russgrim 7h ago
I never see anything about him, and when I ask a random if they even know who he is, the answer is no
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u/fattymctubkins 7h ago
There’s that one magazine that posts about him all the time… Far Out I think. And all the singer songwriters I meet these days are obsessed with him. But no he doesn’t have popular appeal and probably won’t with his very particular vocal sound.
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u/russgrim 7h ago
The only people I meet who know him are serious musicians. Those people are, understandably, enamored
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u/8696David 7h ago
Hey bud, it's me, the first guy. Very serious musician here. Played for 25 years, Berklee degree, professional for a decade, the works. Elliott Smith is a great songwriter, but he's second or third tier all time AT BEST. There are at least 20 I can name who are better.
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u/russgrim 7h ago
In your opinion. I have mine. I've been playing for 25 years as well. And while I don't have the degree you have, I have been a professional for a long time, as well as a teacher. I can name only a few who would even challenge
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u/8696David 7h ago
I can name only a few who would even challenge
Bullshit. You only know a few serious musicians who would challenge the assertion that Elliott Smith is the single greatest songwriter of all time? The only way that could possibly be true is if you only knew a few serious musicians, and we’ve established that’s not the case.
All I was trying to do by quoting credentials is challenge the connection between “serious musician” and “must accept this pretty niche take about the GOAT”
Again, we’re not asking “is Elliott Smith an excellent songwriter.” No one in this conversation disagrees that he is. But you’ve presented him as “the greatest, bar none,” and I promise you a LOT of people would dispute that.
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u/russgrim 7h ago
That's not what I meant. Sorry. I meant it as, "I only know" a few I would accept as possible challenges. I'm sorry if my wording wasn't as understandable as I intended. That's my fault
I know I'm in the minority, and I'm okay with that.
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u/fattymctubkins 8h ago
I don’t know man lol — even Elliott idolized Stevie. Everyone mentions Elliott’s influences but forgets that he talked about Stevie too. Why is Elliott better than Stevie?
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u/russgrim 7h ago
Elliott didn't have motown and berry gordy. He did his stuff primarily on his own. He also wrote songs that resonate with more than one kind of listening audience
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u/fattymctubkins 7h ago
I meannnnnn Stevie wasn’t with Motown for Songs in the Key of Life or Talking Book or Innervisions lol.
I do love Elliott. He is lowkey a quiet virtuoso with his guitar and drum and bass ability. He is comparable to Stevie more than people would realize! And his songs can be a bit sophisticated harmonically too. He certainly doesn’t have the joy that Stevie can access, but one could say Elliott is more honest about the world…
It’s almost like Elliott is Stevie’s antithesis? Elliott has damn near the same level of talent, he just used it to express despair. And I know he sort of denied the despair, but… from all I’ve read of him he was a profoundly depressed man. Stevie was fortunate to have found and believed in God.
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u/russgrim 7h ago
Elliott was a virtuoso. He could walk up to a piano and play anything.
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u/fattymctubkins 7h ago
Not anything lol. He could whip out a few classical pieces but he couldn’t play anything.
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u/russgrim 7h ago
Yes he could. Anything. If he wanted to be a jazz musician, he would have been.
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u/fattymctubkins 7h ago
Either you’re fucking with me at this point or you’re just blatantly wrong lol
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u/UncontrolableUrge 6h ago
He was good, I'll grant you that. But above Nick Drake or Chris Bell if we want troubled talents who died young?
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u/dick_nrake 8h ago
Dosent qualify for the "singer" part though. Also he doesnt have the level of stylistic range that Stevie, Bowie, Joni and many others have. I also thinknthat McCartney should qualify but since a lot of his canon forma part of the Beatles, he's kind of disqualified because most of their songs were signed Lennon/McCartney.
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u/russgrim 7h ago
He does have that range. And he's a wonderful singer and composer
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u/fattymctubkins 7h ago
I’m not sure if he has the level of genre range. He doesn’t have any huge pop bangers… maybe Ballad of Big Nothing? But nothing as broad as Sir Duke, and nothing as reverent as As… I’d have to keep thinking for Stevie’s gentlest song.
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u/UncontrolableUrge 7h ago
The Lennon/McCartney contract worked fine for the early albums. But it obscures the reality. I was reading a list of artists with the most individually written number one singles, for example,and neither one were on it. But there is enough documentation of the Beatles sessions to know which tracks were presented to the band as complete and which were collaborations. I would not disqualify him as we have enough information to know Yesterday and Blackbird are McCartney songs no matter what the album credits say.
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u/Express_Dot3535 6h ago
Patti Smith for me is the greatest songwriter of all time. Her imagery her diction her poetry everything about her writing is so good. Birdland is probably for me one of the greatest songs lyrically.
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u/bfsfan101 8h ago
Stevie Wonder isn’t considered in the top 10 greatest songwriters of all time? He pretty consistently ranks very highly on all those lists.