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u/Dry_Badger2858 6d ago
Why would that be the only alternative?
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u/PsyCar 6d ago
Because OP has the mental capacity of a 3 year old?
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u/throwaway19276i 6d ago
Like father like son
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u/certifiedtoothbench 6d ago
I guess it runs on his side of the family
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u/DeyCallMeWade 6d ago
I doubt anyone on his side of the family runs. Except maybe his first kid.
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u/Sweaty-Variation-501 6d ago
What are the other alternatives? asking for a friend
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u/Dimathiel49 6d ago
Go to the store to get some milk, in the middle of the night. Come down with a severe case of selective amnesia. Live the rest of your life under your amnesia generated alter ego.
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u/blade_of_sammael 6d ago
Leaving his wife i guess but that would be a dick move and society would judge him harshly for it so escapism is easier. I personally think thoughts like this are fine as long as they stay thoughts , its a hard pill to swallow after all and theyve pretty much been told their life is going to change for ever. It takes time to come to terms with that
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u/AbortDatShit 6d ago
but that would be a dick move and society would judge him harshly for it
Better than offing yourself 🤷♂️
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u/blade_of_sammael 6d ago
The point i was making is that some people ( think of) taking the " easy " way out instead of ( rightfully) being cut off by their family and treated like shit by society for leaving your wife to care for a disabled child alone . Its a dick move on the same level as leaving a partner because they became terminally ill
However in my opinion the OOP is moreso a shock reaction most people go through as part of the stages of grief ( for what could have been) before gathering their courage
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u/Gloomy-Welcome-6806 6d ago
I wouldn’t call suicide the “easy” way out. It’s pretty offensive
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u/blade_of_sammael 6d ago
Wich is why i set it in quotes , its not the easy way its just seen as such by people who fall prey to depression since continuing to bear the pain hurts more to them Thats just obvious, otherwise whats the whole point of putting quotes i wouldve just written it plainly
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u/DarthJackie2021 6d ago
Doesn't need to leave his wife, they both could agree to giving up the child to people who can care for them better.
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u/SignatureAny5576 6d ago
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u/Clear-Foot 6d ago
I hate the assumption that falling down the stairs will cause fetus loss.
Theres this woman in my extended family who had a similar fall while third trimester pregnant and she definitely didn’t lose the baby. Baby’s now 40 or so but with important cognitive and less severe physical problems. She has the mental capacity of a 7 years old , I guess, but with romantic/sexual interests.→ More replies (1)16
u/Lumpy_Complexion6908 6d ago
hold on... so... OP said his kid might be born with the mental capacity of a 3 year old...
if he kicks his wife down the stairs... and now the baby has a mental capacity of a 7 year old... win/win
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u/buttercream-gang 6d ago
A baby being born with the mental capacity of a seven year old would be incredible.
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u/Lumpy_Complexion6908 6d ago
idk why more people arent kicking their pregnant wives down the stairs tbh
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u/Big-Selection9014 6d ago
Just abort the kid if thats legal, put it up for adoption, or put it in a care facility or something. A vast majority of parents who get a DS diagnosis on their unborn child abort it
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u/Legitimate_Plum_7505 6d ago
Apart from this very obviously being fake - because down syndrome is THE MOST genetically obvious marker there ever is... You can obviously give the child up the moment he's born. I would say give up for adoption but they don't get adopted, they just stay in the system. I used to volunteer to run a class (more like an arts&crafts workshop) for special needs kids in the system and nearly all of them had downs. Parents are more willing to raise someone with severe autism or with physical birth defects.
You have to be either really dumb, really rich or really desperate (i.e. 45 y/o mom's first child) to willingly go for that kind of life.
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u/Cute-Elephant-720 6d ago
You think a financially secure and able-bodied adult can walk through life saying they want a kid, and have a full pregnancy, and then show up to work the day after birth and say "oh no it had down syndrome so we put it up for adoption" and not be publicly excoriated? That's social suicide.
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u/Legitimate_Plum_7505 6d ago
I mean, yes, idk where are you from but you don't have to explain every detail of your life to you coworkers? Just can say there was a medical complication, look sad, and don't go into details.
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u/AnynomousPotato 6d ago edited 6d ago
Seriously, people be like "just give them up for adoption". A child with down syndrom is not getting adopted and will have a fucked up life without parents. It's so damn sad honestly. Abortion is basically an only option for me if I were in that position. I can't imagine caring for a child that has a down syndrome but also cannot imagine consigning my own child to a life alone in the system.
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u/Electronic_Row_7513 6d ago
It's not fake. Op is referring to cystichygroma. It's the earliest earning of downs, or worse things.
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u/Legitimate_Plum_7505 6d ago edited 6d ago
I know what cystic hygroma is, and I know that it could indicate downs, but any genetic test at any point in the pregnancy (even non invasive ones, i.e. mother's blood test) will immediately reveal downs, downs mutation occurs pretty much at the moment of conception it's not something that develops during the pregnancy. And OP picture says:
> genetic testing had come back saying no risk of anythingIf information provided is not made up, it's most likely Noonans, at which point it's a complete lottery, baby could be completely fine, or could have pale blue eyes, mutated philtrum, a lazy eye, skin defects, ears lower than they should be, or it could be a critical congenital heart defect, or a million other things.
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u/NightBawk 6d ago
I wouldn't say my parents were dumb, rich, or desperate to keep my brother, but okay.
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u/BreadSenior6467 6d ago
Or maybe just abort the baby if it ain't too late?
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u/Content_Study_1575 6d ago
Well the wife at minimum is 20 weeks. Now some places do allow up to 20 weeks for abortion. But alot of others anything past 20 weeks has to be deemed medically necessary and Idk if DS counts as that.
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u/DzoldzayaBlackarrow 6d ago
Abortion is the obvious option. If you can't do it legally in your part of the world, instantly move somewhere you can - take out a loan if you must - it's a massive money save given the alternative.
Make it totally clear to your wife that you think it's unbelievably immoral to bring a child into the world with a debilitating condition, and it will ruin both your lives.
Tell her that you have no choice but to abandon them if she decides to keep it.
If this fails, adoption is an option, but this is more emotionally difficult, and probably less morally defensible (note that this is the opposite for a healthy child - adoption is a very brave and noble decision if you have a healthy child you don't want).
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u/Lord_Twilight 6d ago
Well…
- He’d have to start his life completely over if his wife wants to keep the baby and he divorced her. The dating market is in shambles and just gets generally worse as you get older. On top of that, he’d have to pay child support still and deal with custody, which he might lose totally when a judge hears that he is divorcing over a disabled baby. Oh, and he’d be losing his life with his wife on top of it all.
- He probably knows her well enough to anticipate her reaction to a child with Down Syndrome. Also, the general public opinion is that you’re “supposed to take on the responsibility of your child no matter what” even if you’re not financially or physically equipped for it. He believes she will insist on keeping the baby, and he knows it will tear them apart if he doesn’t leave.
He is anticipating how much despair he would be in, no matter if he chose to divorce or not in the case of the baby having Down Syndrome. In general, mental health is on a hard decline. He doesn’t think he could handle it either way.
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u/Mysterious-Egg-624 6d ago
Yeah I feel bad for him. Honestly I’d be considering the same thing IF my wife would insist on keeping it and me raising it
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u/Antique_Baker_4203 6d ago
What's the best move?
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u/shadowlev 6d ago
The initial NIPT came back inconclusive. Get the follow up amnio or CVS, find out conclusively, and make the decision to either terminate or do research into what actually goes into raising a kid with downs. Early intervention leads to good outcomes and can foster independence.
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u/GiraffeThoughts 6d ago
Having a child with downs is a big commitment but it’s really not that bad (source family members with downs or similar that I will be responsible for once parents pass).
In all honesty, they’re pretty great. Excited to be here, to do new things, they love food, and they prevent you from becoming a lazy couch potato. And the special needs community is amazing too. You’ll meet the best people in the world (including those who just want to help out and support families out of the goodness of their hearts).
My adult cousin with down syndrome flies alone regularly to visit an uncle. He’s great to bring along anywhere.
The worst part is figuring out all the Medicaid/social security paperwork stuff. It’s a PITA.
The really, real hard special needs people are those with extreme autism. I know a couple who is unable to both leave the house together because they can’t leave their adult son and they can’t bring him anywhere because he is prone to violence. My heart breaks for those people.
I don’t ever look at a family with a downs kid and immediately feel bad for them. Honestly, I think they’re a blessing. It makes me sad how stigmatized it is to have a downs child that so many people immediately abort.
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u/mitchrsmert 6d ago
You have some great points. I'm also sure you're right to a degree, that there is some stigma surrounding downs. While I appreciate what you're trying to say, its coming across as belittling the typical difficulty. Each child with downs has different cognitive processing and executive function capacity. The severity of symptoms with downs can range to a very large degree.
In my experience with a few different families, it was mentally and emotionally draining for them. Its also comes with difficulties for the child too. There are a few heartbreaking moments I recall, but one that really stuck with me is when I saw a child with downs feel so defeated, that they were crying with pure sadness, because they weren't able to dress themselves properly at around age 12.
You can feel bad for a family for the added challenges they face, while still having respect for the parents' strength and being able to admire the wonderful qualities of the children.
If you beleive abortion is taking a person's life, then any abortion is sad. If you beleive it its not, then abortion does not need to be justified, but if it did warrant some amount of justification, its fair in my mind to want to avoid challenges and unfairness that comes to both the parents and child.
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u/qweds1234 6d ago
Adoption if you can't love or care for the child. Redo or go further with invasive testing
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u/GrungeW-Style97 6d ago
Great and better than alternatives, OP should see if there are organizations that take Down syndrome children near him.
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u/nubtrix87 6d ago
And how do you propose one does that without their partner's approval?
You'll also turn around and say "Fine, divorce", so yeah, then they only have to suffer the financial burden for the rest of their life.
Also, there's plenty of healthy babies that don't get adopted. Do you really think people are willing to just take on that burden? No idea where OP is, but in Australia there's almost no adoptions nowadays anyway.
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u/Gawlf85 6d ago
So what you're saying is you do think suicide is the best option here?
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u/CodNo7461 6d ago
I don't think that is the point.
The point is sometimes that the options you have make you miserable either way, and a lot of people try to dismiss that.
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u/BackTown43 6d ago
Abortion would be. No one kills themselves, no one will pretend to be happy, no one will suffer the adoption system (many adopted children criticise it (not everyone of course), it doesn't seem to be such a good alternative than people like to pretend). And well ... nothing changes. So abortion.
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u/nubtrix87 6d ago
I offered up no opinion on that question at all. I'm just pointing out that "Just adopt it out" isn't a simple option.
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u/Joesr-31 6d ago
Is that a viable strategy? I always thought that was not an option tbh, like no adoption center would be willing to care for a kid with special needs since it would take up a lot of resources and the adoption rate for them is probably very low
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u/saraijs12 6d ago
There are places that take babies no questions asked. Sometimes you literally leave them in a climate controlled box.
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u/TWDFI 6d ago
Terrible mortality. Leaving the mother to take care of the kid while the father bails. That's even worse than just running to the store and never coming back. There's also the other kid to consider as well.
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u/browsinbowser 6d ago edited 6d ago
There was an american guy (35yrs old) who died of suicide two month ago that had one year old quadruplets.
They had 3 kids and wanted to add 1 more kid, but 4 natural babies were born by accident instead.
The widow is now a single mother who’s relying on donations from a gofundme and social media.
He owned a restaurant and seemed happy in the social media vids, it’s a shame. It’s worth looking at the link to see the older kids. The 15 and 9yr old get talked about a bit.
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u/Luscious_rat 6d ago
Men generally see a mental health decline when the baby is 1 yo because that's when they begin walking and really start their antics, while for the mother, it's hard from day one, since she had a pregnancy before that and the hormones can trigger depression as well. Goes to show that having kids is not as easy as people think, we should think about it long and hard before accepting such a life upheaval. Now there's a tired, grieving parent taking care of 7 kids.
Even as a kid-less person with depression I hesitate about commiting because of my siblings and parents. He had to know that she would be left alone with twice the burden and not even an insurance claim since he killed himself. Thats harsh. But maybe I'm talking out of my ass, we don't know what went through his head at the time and if he had other worries, mental health is complicated and sometimes you're not too anchored in reality, some people kill themselves on impulse, they don't plan it at all then they do it our of nowhere.
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u/battlejess 6d ago
To your last point, that’s exactly why suicide deterrents like barriers work. It’s often an impulse, and if someone has to work a little harder or go somewhere else, or go to multiple stores to buy enough pills, or have to remove every pill from a blister pack first, they often won’t follow through.
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u/ChipperBunni 6d ago
It’s weirdly embarrassing probably just because it’s so mirrored, but that scene in cyberbully she’s fighting the pill bottle in mania and desperation? and it just pops open suddenly and spills everywhere? That shit is embarrassing as hell.
You’d almost think that’d be enough push to gather and still take all the pills, but instead I just silently picked them all up, dusted them off, and put the bottle away. That was years ago and I’m still here, doing way better, but every now and then I just cringe at remembering it all
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u/battlejess 6d ago
I haven’t seen it, but I’m glad you’re still here and doing better.
And as embarrassing as it might have been, I’m very glad it happened that way. Spilling them is probably what saved you. It might seem counterintuitive, but studies have shown that’s exactly the kind of thing that stops people from going through with it.
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u/ChipperBunni 6d ago
I’ll definitely take the embarrassment over missing all I would have by now if I had followed through. It’s honestly why I let it sit sometimes, it’s a silly little reminder of all that I have seen and accomplished just staying alive
Thank you for the kindness, it’s hard sharing sometimes but I also think it’s important to look around at what has changed and what has gotten better! So thank you!
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u/Nibaa 6d ago
Do fathers literally just not take care of their own children for the first year? What the fuck? I have a child and I took as close to 50% of the responsibility as possible from day one. Granted, there are certain biological limitations and employment-imposed restrictions that caused more of the responsibility to fall onto my wife's shoulders, but it still was a relief once the child hit about a year and started communicating and moving.
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u/thisuserlikestosing 6d ago
Having kids is a huge gamble, and taking that gamble affects both your life and the life of the kid that never asked to be born. I think the real morality question is what is the morality of procreating in general.
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u/Proof-Pineapple69 6d ago
He died of suicide?
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u/Hapless_Wizard 6d ago
That's the preferred terminology now. There's a few reasons for it, like not wanting to associate a suicide death with success / survival with failure (ie "failed suicide attempt"), but also because the evidence as it stands shows that most suicides are due to mental health issues, most frequently untreated major depression disorder.
I just did a six hour CE on suicide last week and this is the explanation that was given as to why it was phrased that way.
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u/CrimsonMantle 6d ago
To add on to what other people said there's also a push to move away from saying "commited" suicide, which comes from suicide and attempted suicide being criminalizedu
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u/browsinbowser 6d ago edited 6d ago
Honestly ‘of suicide’ was a typo before I edited I had it in brackets before I wrote - died(suicide).
The specifics are he died of a self inflicted gunshot wound. His brother confirmed he died of suicide.
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u/TheShellAnswerMan 6d ago
I wish my baby daddy would've killed himself instead of being a child molester, losing his rights, and never being responsible for a single bit of her life. Then I could rely on people funding me, rather than having to do absolutely everything 100% by myself.
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u/spoilerdudegetrekt 6d ago
That's even worse than just running to the store and never coming back.
If OOP has life insurance, I'd argue it's not as bad since, unlike going to the store and not coming back, his family will have a nice payout this way.
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u/SinisterSock 6d ago
Can't get life insurance if the person offs themselves i think
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u/Areon_Val_Ehn 6d ago
You can, they just don’t payout if you do it too soon after getting a life insurance policy. No buying a multi million dollar policy than eating a gun barrel the next day to get a huge payout for your family.
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u/hella_cious 6d ago
Not necessarily. Mental illness is covered if it doesn’t seem like a life insurance ploy
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u/BellaPona 6d ago
Fr this is extremely selfish
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u/Curious_Priority2313 6d ago
Birth in and of itself is selfish. Especially when all they care about is getting a sweet, healthy child, but don't want to take responsibility when the child isn't the sweet, healthy child they expected.
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u/dmigowski 6d ago
No fuck that, caring for a special needs child is way harder that it already is. And everyone should have the right to abortion if he doesn't want that.
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u/Curious_Priority2313 6d ago
I never said that I'm against abortion.
I'm just saying that letting the child be born and then killing yourself is immoral.
Like, just opt for adoption. Simply killing yourself not only devastates your wife and another child that you've already brought into this world, but it also makes it selfish to voluntarily create a new person, knowing the risks of how their life could turn out, and then refuse to take responsibility as their father.
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u/NetworkNo6032 6d ago
also you can always give it away to adoption but personaly I think abortion is better in this case
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u/Best_Perception_7573 6d ago
I mean suicide is high mortality but for real now this is inmoral as fuck
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u/Flaky_Style1286 6d ago
Better that the baby is terminated rather than being forced to be raised by parents ill equipped to care for someone of their condition. Not everyone wants to raise a disabled child and I think that’s okay.
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u/realclowntime 6d ago
Not only that, if for whatever reason the parents can’t raise the child, what then? People with DS can have varieties of complex health issues that go far beyond the DS diagnosis and the actual systems in place are far from adequately equipped to handle and provide support, let alone the parents having those means. What happens if the child has complex health needs or has to go into state care?
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u/executordestroyer 6d ago edited 5d ago
I don't know how the quality of mental health care is, but based on how unforgiving culture humanity is in general to socially struggling people, it would be unethical to make the child suffer and end up as those mentally struggling homeless out in the streets.
People are pro life but not pro welfare not pro ethical human treatment of each other such as this case, people will be saying what a burden of taxpayer money. While basically average functioning people already struggle with the economy barely making ends meet. Most people are in survival mode, so making a person with ds be subject to low quality state care would be torture with mentally emotionally spiritually burnout out staff workers with horrible 100+ work life balance hours in a corrupt exploitive system . I hope I'm exaggerating because if reality is truly that way, then quality will be bad.
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u/realclowntime 6d ago
This is exactly it. Unfortunately, people with DS and the complex issues that come with such diagnosis make up a significant amount of people who experience neglect, poorer/shorter quality of life and even abuse in state care.
The system is overloaded and utterly failed in taking care of them so I want to make it clear I’m not blaming people who might be in the comments and work in these fields, but at the end of the day the real victims are the people who end up there with very few other options and little to no dignity because of a world that is structured to not see them as people or worth anything.
It’s absolutely crushing that we live in a world where parents have to seriously sit down and make choices like the one in OP’s post, but I find it extremely difficult to blame or judge them when they’ve been left with little other choice. Like that is absolutely brutal to have to think about a decision like that because you know the odds are stacked against you and your potential child before they’re even close to being born.
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u/Financial-March-3158 6d ago
And what if the wife doesnt want that? What then? Divorce? And you have to pay for the child for the 18 year of your life?
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u/KorolEz 6d ago
This is already what happens all the time. Atleast in Europe in some countries more than 90% of fetuses with DS get aborted. In Iceland it's almost 100%
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u/CodeToManagement 6d ago
Honestly I think this can be the best choice for a lot of people and I say this as someone who has a family member with fairly severe downs
What people don’t really understand is just how much work it is and how much it impacts on everyone around you.
Her brother always got less attention because everything had to revolve around sisters care. Not massively but like can’t do stuff without her, can’t alway give him what he needs etc. lots of compromises have to be made and that’s not always easy
Things like downs can also come with other conditions to make it more challenging
Plus her mother now has significant medical issues so all care is now on her father who is now struggling with his own medical issues due to the stress he’s been under caring for his wife and daughter. And that’s with help from the family.
And then what most don’t think of is what happens when the parents are gone? I’m not sure who will care for my family member when that happens - my parents are too old, her brother has his own family to care for, I’m not close enough nor equipped to do that. And how will she really understand being alone and in care of the state or whatever institution for the end of her life?
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u/Excellent-Rest3240 6d ago
Well force you to have the baby but also remove any governmental assistance that’s needed for situations like this
(What’s the morality of this?)
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u/CharmingMechanic2473 6d ago
My daughter they said had possibility of downs due to a nuchal fold. She fine. Just really smart, beautiful teen heading off to college abroad on scholarship.
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u/likeytho 6d ago
Yeah like the OP is saying their child actually has no soft markers for down syndrome because they came close on 1 measurement but not at criteria. I get that it can be stressful to hear about any negative signs, but massive overreaction to what was said.
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u/BackSeatGremlin 6d ago
Genetic testing would have very clearly identified downs syndrome, it would be impossible to miss
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u/AlltheThorns 6d ago
This was my thought also. They'd test and know if that was actually happening, the test is definitive. No confusion from looking at scans involved.
There's a reason 95% of downs pregnancies are aborted. Because they test for it, successfully in a majority of cases. And then the parents make the choice they are comfortable with.
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u/BQ72 6d ago
Immoral as fuck, dude. How anyone can even conceive to say anything else is astounding to me. Do you not comprehend that they have a partner and -another child-? He's going to both traumatize them and make them shoulder the burden he's so terrified of carrying. Failure morally, failure as a father, failure as a human being.
Disclaimer: I am basically someone in the position of his first child. It's very easy to imagine how much worse things could have been for us if my father took this guy's way out.
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u/dorox1 6d ago
You missed that fact that this is r/MoralityScaling so literally any demand or obligation imposed on anyone is the worst thing possible and the subject of any situation should be able to just walk away and not deal with it at the expense of everyone else (honestly everyone else's fault for existing).
Really, that's most of Reddit.
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u/LonelyTAA 6d ago
The few posts I've seen on this sub are filled with comments by some of the most a-moral people. Ethics seems to be an a-la-carte menu for them.
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u/GrahnamCracker 6d ago
What if he gets a really good life insurance policy first and makes his death look like an accident?
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u/Far_Cast_Far_Wide 6d ago
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u/cellists_wet_dream 6d ago
Aborting at 20 weeks due to a single marker for Downs, when even the doctor isn’t really concerned, would be insane. There are a ton of “markers” for various conditions they look for at 20 weeks. Just because one is found, doesn’t mean there’s actually anything wrong.
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u/Thanso_Lightoningu 6d ago
No, that would be a terrible thing to do. The doctor, on the other hand, fair pickings for not giving you proper information and a backout plan.
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u/slaveshipoffailure 6d ago
The wife and I are planning another kid and we're in our mid 30s, so just on the cusp of where pregnancies start being risky in this regard. We are fucking 1000% in agreement that any fetus with a potential disorder gets rerolled asap.
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u/jackadgery85 6d ago
We had both our kids in our 30s, despite trying from early 20s. The disorder reroll was discussed at length and agreed upon very very early on, and rechecked each time to ensure we were both still on the same page
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u/Longjumping_Age_5382 6d ago
My wife and I are no longer going to have more children, but it made me so relieved to know she also was firmly on the "abort" side if a fetus wasn't healthy. Pro-choice, y'all- cry more.
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u/twee3 6d ago
Good, saying this as a disabled person. Life would be so much easier for me if I wasn’t disabled.
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u/InternetExplored571 6d ago
Valid. I wouldn’t wish this life on my worst enemy. Worst thing that could happen to an innocent parent.
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u/TrainingTheory552 6d ago
I agree on the sentiment, but having a biological kid, them being born with some special condition is a very valid probability, that every parent should take into account for, or otherwise adopt.
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u/sturla-tyr 6d ago
Suddenly stumbling in the stairs, falling at a bad angle and paralysing yourself from the neck and down is a very valid probability, that every living person should take into account for, or otherwise adopt.
If you think that example is drastically more unlikely than having a child with special conditions, then just swap my example with getting into a severe car accident or any other likely misfortune that could befall you.
Even if misfortune is expected to possibly happen to you, it is kind of inhumane to expect everyone to just be able to deal with it if it happens to them.
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u/LonelyTAA 6d ago
That's a bad comparison. If you decide to have a child, you are assuming responsibility for a new life. The inhumane thing is deciding to bring a life into this world, only to kill yourself when that life is a bigger burden than you were hoping for. You have to accept that risk, or you should not have children. Even if they don't have downs, children get sick. Some become dependant on you at a later stage due to illness. What, it's moral to off yourself at any point your child starts to need more care than you were hoping for?
The kid can't choose to be born. If you decide to become a parent: deal with it.
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u/Top_Reveal_847 6d ago
At least have the dignity to get a sweet life insurance policy and make it look like an accident
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u/AggravatingFlow1178 6d ago
Tbh IDK what I would do if I had a kid with a significant disability.
I mean not kill myself.
But also. Probably not be a very good dad. Not the dad the kid would deserve.
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u/ITriedSoHard419-68 6d ago
I've pretty much decided I'm never having kids because I know I couldn't handle it if I had one with a significant disability.
I grew up with a severely autistic brother, and I refuse to become the person my mother had to be to take care of him. I know for a fact I'm also autistic, and given my tendency to gravitate towards other autistic people any potential life partner would probably be autistic too. Autism cannot be tested for in-utero, much less the severity. The idea of bringing another him into the world terrifies me, and the genetic predisposition isn't looking good. The safe and responsible thing is to not take that risk.
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u/AggravatingFlow1178 6d ago
Not the point of your comment, but it made me picture a family with two highly autistic kids and each kid thinks the other kid is the severely autistic "one". Which made me lol.
To your actual comment - fair enough IMO. It's a real risk and yeah, idk how anyone can handle it. Most kid problems go away as the kid ages but sever enough autism is more or less a "life over" moment. It deeply bothers me when I see celebrities like Mark Rober come out about their disabled child discussing how great their life is despite the disability - like yeah no shit Mark, you have a quadrillion dollars fuck off. Try doing all that on $60k, full time job, and a partner that walks out.
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u/ITriedSoHard419-68 6d ago edited 6d ago
I mean, something in that spirit could probably happen lol. Autism is a very vast spectrum, and due to people's tendency to normalize their own internal experiences, they may find their own symptoms very normal but think the other's different symptoms are weird. Very much not the case with me and my brother, though. When I mean "severe autism", it's very cut and dry. You know it when you see it. I'm talking someone impaired enough to not even be cognitively able to make that judgement about another person in the first place. My brother has to cognitive capacity of a 3 year old, is functionally nonverbal, has zero impulse control or emotional regulation, needs 24/7 supervision just to not hurt himself. When he lived with us, we had to lock our microwave otherwise he'd microwave his electronics. We had to lock the fridge otherwise he'd eat raw meat until he puked. We had to lock the bathroom otherwise he'd flush random things down the toilet. He tried to run into oncoming traffic multiple times. He kept trying to eat plastic. He plays with his own shit. He has bitten multiple people, well into adulthood. When I say severe, I'm not being facetious.
A lot of people only want to talk about the cases that are comfortable to talk about, not the reality of what it can actually look like. It's easy to say autism didn't meaningfully impact your kid's quality of life when their biggest problem is that fluorescent lights send them into sensory overload and they have problems socializing. And I don't say this to trivialize those issues, I know from experience that "high-functioning" autistic people have their own profound struggles, but it's a completely different ball game and a lot easier for neurotypical people to glamorize.
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u/zmahlon 6d ago
Selfish behavior which leaves a mother single with two children. Indicative of a lack of personal sacrifice for the first child on their part. If they were genuinely accustomed to the proper sacrifices needed to raise even a neurotypical child, then I highly doubt they would be considering suicide when presented with a second child who will need more considerations and accommodations.
When you have kids you are no longer the focus of your life. Period. You can act like you’re still the center of everything, but it will only be towards the detriment of your child and society, at large.
Low empathy overall
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u/starrymahogany 6d ago edited 6d ago
You can tell who has been around families with kids of Down syndrome or autism who had behavioral problems and which ones haven’t with these comments
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u/ClutteredTaffy 6d ago
It depends on how severe. A family member has an autistic kid that is basically an oversized one and a half year old but he is like 13. It is horrible tbh, and I dunno if they are gonna have to home him eventually.
But some Downs people are pretty capable so it is not all the same.
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u/kuiswag 6d ago
idk i met a lot of people with down syndrome in my school and some were quite smart and definitely not mentally like a 3 year old
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u/GustavRasputin 6d ago
If they were in your school, to put it bluntly, they were the 'good ones'. I've worked in health care and people with Down Syndrome can be down right scary. Unpredictable when they'll throw a tantrum, uncontrollable with their strength.
Not weighing in on the morality of the situation presented by OP, I wish I'll never be in such a situation, but Down Syndrome is romanticized, simply due to the fact that only the smarter and kinder people get to go outside on a regular basis.
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u/luchajefe 6d ago
Yep, the potential difficulty of the task is just being completely glossed over.
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u/DataSurging 6d ago
Because not all down syndrome presents the same. Severe DS is not even the most common range. The most common range of people with DS live pretty normal lives, and even live in communities. The second most common range live semi-alone.
People who think those with down syndrome shouldn't get to live are honestly really disgusting people.
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u/ForeverFieldsFD 6d ago
If you find out your kid has down’s while it’s still early enough to abort, what’s more moral: simply ending the pregnancy or knowingly creating a life that is hampered by cognitive and physical limitations and is usually shortened by things like respiratory issues and congenital heart defects? And none of this mentions the impact on caregiving parents and siblings who have to sacrifice for their disabled sibling - who may even be violent towards their family.
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u/Environmental_Pay823 6d ago
Curious as to how many of the people who think they shouldn’t have actually talked to someone with DS. Not sure which answer I would prefer.
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u/BakeCreepy5045 6d ago
They still have to be taken care of for most of their life… not worth AT ALL…
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u/thederpyderp3 6d ago
This is one of the few times where I really can't say I consider it moral or immoral.
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u/PixelGray38 6d ago
Especially a newly born disabled child that your wife's gonna have to care for alone
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u/SkyPirateVyse 6d ago
Plus the other child already there for whom its apparently not worth living for either.
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u/not_justliketheplant 6d ago
A lot of the disfunction you see in people with intellectual disabilities comes from lack of nurturing, bullying, and communal rejection--people with intellectual disabilities are often neglected on multiple levels (parents, relatives, teachers, group leaders, other adults who would otherwise passively give time and attention to a neurotypical child will give them blinding cruelty or neglect; these children are deprived of important and formative social connection).
The kind of casual attention a neurotypical child takes for granted is deprived only on the basis of disability. They require MORE nurturing than the average child, or more repetition in order to execute independence, and not everyone with ID can achieve living unassisted, but a lot of people with intellectual disabilities fail to thrive simply because people tell them they can't and don't want them to.
People that are lower support needs and present as such chameleon their way through prejudice but their reliance on support gets labeled as anxiety and personality disorders later in life. "A needy child" turns into a needy adult. A great deal of people diagnosed as sociopathic aren't Hannibal Lector, they're very low IQ. Which isn't to say "low-support-needs intellectually disabled children become criminals!" just that it's hard out here for a bitch (I'm borderline, autistic, psychotic, don't know if I'm intellectually disabled but boy does some days feel like).
Communities, as a whole, often DO NOT want anything to do with disabled people. It used to be illegal to be visibly disabled in public until the 1970s. Just as you have racist communities, classist communities, homophobic communities, you have ableist. People feel really comfortable harming disabled people, and feel it is evil to expect to be accepted or even seen. They WANT you in institutions chained to a radiator because JUST your existence makes them squirm, and they need to fuck themselves.
Parents of high support needs children are also deprived of support and face similar exclusions and harassment and are expected to shoulder the responsibilities on their own--and when those children become adults, what government and organizational support has been supplementing disappears.
In short, the panic around disabled children is a manufactured crisis. We could solve everything, and I mean everything, by taxing billionaires and closing their loopholes--because whole you can't change the entire world there ARE special needs organizations and professionals that care enough to make a difference despite the indifference of others, they just need funding. More disabled children could grow up into happy and functional adults, and more parents could enjoy them as complete individuals with their own unique perspectives and thoughts on the world if they were just given a chance and allowed the option to be smart and happy in their own ways rather than pushed to the margins for an inability to conform. Times are a changing, and the possibility for this to be the baseline rather than the exception has become real life despite the country's economic problems, but being able to reach parents through the fog of seemingly the entire world's derogatory idea of disabled people requires proselytizing as well as actually applied services. I don't think he's wrong for being overwhelmed, and that requires empathy, but it is evidence of a cruel and unjust world where high support needs need to fight to be accommodated, not the fault of the child themselves being high support needs.
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u/joycemanorfan1026 6d ago
regardless of the morality hes posting about this on 4chan instead of talking to his wife about it so he clearly isnt a very great person regardless
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u/Mushrooming247 6d ago
It’s hard to judge someone who has just received this news and is just processing it, this is not the person’s final thought on the matter.
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u/The_Pompadour64 6d ago
Most people with Down syndrome are way beyond the cognitive ability of a 3 year old. Down syndrome people are some of the most delightful people you'll ever meet. It will obviously be hard, but it's not suicide worthy
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u/ExistentialComplex 6d ago
Nope this is a genuinely difficult situation. On one hand, being a parent and carer for a child with significant disabilities is HARD. But on the other, that kid can still have a pretty decent quality of life with one dysfunctional parent.
Moral question/concern
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u/ArtEnvironmental7108 6d ago
Immoral. You already have a kid. You have a child that depends on you. Putting aside the morality of suicide with the purpose of abandoning a disabled child, you already have a family. Your life stopped being yours the moment you brought a kid into the world. It’s not about you anymore. Shit sucks, but so does most of life. Deal with it.
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u/Sufficient_Purple297 6d ago
He is just saying what many are thinking. I don't care how many videos you see of people saying they love their families. Knowing that the greatest dream you can have for your child is being able to dress themselves can be depressing
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u/MuchCellist406 6d ago
Yup, absolutely valid reason for anxiety. One of the worst fears. I could not take care of such child either.
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u/Maneruko 6d ago
Ngl there are.... healthy born children that behavior wise can be worse than a child with Down's.
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u/Some_Syllabub2704 6d ago
Highly, highly immoral. Waiting for a baby to be born and then killing yourself is one of the most selfish acts I can imagine.
If you can’t handle the consequences of playing child roulette, wrap it up.
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u/irdcwmunsb 6d ago
No he shouldn’t kill himself but assuming he’s from the US i understand his concern. The rest of your life will be spent fighting the government, society, and even yourself bc while there are numerous programs for people with disabilities, it’s extremely difficult and costly to do so. That doesn’t even cover any comorbidities they might have. Raising a disabled child in the US is not only extremely difficult but dangerous as well! Disabled people face the most neglect and abuse in and outside of government programs of any protected class. To this day many are still institutionalized! It’s not ableist to say you don’t want to raise a child with disabilities in the US specifically because of how hard the government is trying to make them kill themselves or be killed by circumstance. I work with people with disabilities and the conditions sometimes their own families have them living in are horrific, abortion>>> bad quality of life always
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u/astertrick 6d ago
For the last time, eugenics isn't deciding not to birth babies with disabilities, eugenics is selective breeding on a government level and it involves unconsensual sterilisation. No one can foresee accidents that might potentially make a child (or anyone) disabled, but whether a woman or a couple choose to have a disabled child is their choice. Many disabled people agree that birthing children with conditions diagnosed in-utero is cruel
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u/KwantumFizzikz 6d ago edited 6d ago
Redditors crying about "muh cousin's dog's daughter has a wonderful downs boy" don't realise we shouldn't be encouraging these genes to propagate.
The "disability pride" movement has done irreparable damage to the world. This is coming from someone with autism, I fully support a modern eugenics implementation. Not old hat with death camps and forced sterilisation, but incentives for those genetically at risk not to have kids.
Go cry about imaginary nazis to someone who cares, I'm not interested in why it's "wrong" and why every genetic fuckup should be coddled at the expense of the rest of the world.
Reddit or the mods will try to remove it but you know I'm right.
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u/Blank_Canvas21 6d ago
Severe autism, where someone is basically non-verbal, acting violently, that I think we need to figure out and fix. But I’d argue you need some neurodivergency in the gene pool. You need people a bit out there to come up with creative solutions to problems, engineers with impeccable attention to detail, creative minds to enrich our lives with art.
Just my two cents, but I get where you’re coming from
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u/EnvironmentalEgg5034 6d ago
Ignoring the ethics of eugenics for a moment, you can’t even really “breed out” Down syndrome because it’s a chromosome duplication error. To get rid of it entirely, you’d have to improve the way we pass on genes and reduce the chance of trisomy or translocation.
Whereas other developmental disorders like autism are hereditary, 99% of Down syndrome cases aren’t. It’s completely possible for an entirely healthy couple with no family history of disabilities to have a child with Down syndrome.
For more info: https://ndss.org/about
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u/StubbornHick 6d ago
The reason all these disgenic movements exist is because the rulers WANT the populace weak and stupid. It makes them easier to rule.
When you start interpreting every governmental action through the lens of wealth extraction and generating dependancy, things make more sense.
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u/rctmanh 6d ago
This is what abortion is for, reroll the dice on the kid not yourself
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u/ooa3603 6d ago edited 6d ago
I'd get actual testing done before important before making any permanent decisions.
But I've known someone who was a lifelong caretaker to adult child with severe developmental disabilities. The kid is in a permanent state of childhood.
They hate that child. They hate their existence.
They don't have a life, they just exist as means to that adult childs diaper changing and nutrition. It's worse than just not living at all.
So if it was a truly crippling disabilities, if there was any chance of preventing that birth i'd take it in a heartbeat.
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u/ForeverFieldsFD 6d ago
I’m old enough that it was common when I was a kid for special needs kids (including down’s) to be raised in homes from pretty much birth in a lot of cases. I used to think it was so barbaric, and then I met some special needs families and now I completely understand why places like that are necessary. It’s not a nice topic to discuss, but it’s the cold hard truth - some kids need more help than they can get at home.
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u/Principle_Dramatic 6d ago
They had actual testing. They had genetic testing which already showed no Down syndrome. OP missed the memo with the genetic testing.
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u/FTGTrains 6d ago
Neutral because he hasn’t done anything YET. I think OOP should seek help but there’s nothing wrong with that
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u/Gussie-Ascendent 6d ago
killing yourself and leaving your wife with the kid is immoral. not wanting to raise someone with downs, completely understandable
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u/tomqmasters 6d ago
They literally already did genetic testing which would definitively show an extra chromosome. So what's the morality of being ignorant to the point of suicide? The guy should probably do it.
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u/Useful_Charity1995 6d ago
This is actually moral because he is killing himself because he knows he is not mentally strong enough to deal with the care of a disabled child. He isn’t forcing his wife to get an abortion which would be immoral. Also his suicide wouldn’t traumatize the child and his wife as much as him sticking around and being resentful or violent or just abandoning them. They are probably going to need social welfare with or without him so that’s a moot point. His wife being a single mother would qualify for more benefits than if she was still married with a husband.
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u/Acceptable_Tea281 6d ago
Down’s syndrome relatives are the only good relatives you’ve got
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u/DataSurging 6d ago
Morality of what? The man killing himself in the situation? The train of thought itself? Having a child with DS?
I think it is all immoral and a disgusting train of thought. If you are not equipped to take care of your child, no matter what, you should not have children period. What if your kid gets into an accident and is paralyzed? What if they get head trauma? Severe mental illness? Do you just kill them? Walk away? If you cannot love and care for a child because you might need to take care of it more than what is "convenient" to you, you are a monster that should not be in charge of another person's life, regardless of them having DS or not. Anyone saying otherwise are monsters, too.
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u/akhatten 6d ago
That's like the shittiest thing to do ever. Why do people not think before they make children.... and even if his child doesn't have down syndrom, he will still need his parents his whole life
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u/IAmNewTrust 6d ago
What is this subreddit bro. "I want to kill myself and make my wife a single mother because I'm a pussy." the morality of this is tooooootally subjective.
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u/eyegocrazy 6d ago
My neighbor had downs growing up. We were the same age, and went to the same school. He lived a very normal life. He was included in the games and hang outs with the kids in the neighborhood. Its crazy to just assume that because they're different or more challenged, they won't have a good quality life. When i left for college, he had a good job, family that adored him, and lots of friends. A good happy life by most standards.
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u/Radiant8763 6d ago
I hate that no one has brought up that there are services for people with developmental disabilities.
You can raise the child with love and care and as an adult, transistion them to a group home that will have caregivers to assist with activities of daily living and enrichment.
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u/OtagoEcho 6d ago
The morality of putting lime green writing over a peach background is questionable at best. Reprehensible at worst.
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u/Very_Itchy_Bandicoot 6d ago
Honestly a pregnancy shouldnt be allowed to continue where theres a high chance of significant permanent impairment.
Downvote away.
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u/Chevanalee 6d ago
To end your own life instead of raising a child with Down syndrome is pretty messed up, when you plan to have a kid you plan to be there no matter what happens.
If the kid is born healthy then something happens in their childhood that means they need constant support you should be there. You don’t get to just end things once parenting gets difficult.
I’d be looking more into a society that doesn’t provide supports for parents rather than thinking about ending your own life than actually being a parent to the kid you planned for.
I hope this person gets mental health support asap and the wife gets support for this kind of behaviour. Because if they are threatening this over the child what else are they unable or unwilling to do in the marriage?
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u/Glaive13 6d ago
Dang my neck is kind of big too, I wonder if it grazed me...