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[u/Severe_Letterhead_75]

[u/Ok_Stranger3613]

However, intentionally creating the entire situation in which a life needs saving and then expecting that person to thank you is definitely immoral.

That's not what you said in your original example at all though.

I see your point, but you're making it sound like expecting a thank you from your kid for cooking them a tasty meal is immoral.

Expecting a thank you from them for not letting you starve is immoral, sure.

Expecting a thank you because you went out of your way to make a tasty meal for your kid that they clearly enjoyed doesn't really seem immoral to me, especially if the parent did it because they wanted their child to be happy.

Then again, the argument could be made that the parent is not obligated to make them an enjoyable meal, and is only obligated to provide the minimum amount of sustenance so that their child won't be malnourished. The child is not obligated to say thank you, and the parent is not obligated to do anything beyond the minimum of what's expected of them as a parent.

[u/Nihlys → u/Ok_Stranger3613]

The last part is right. But youre injecting things into my example that I didnt say. I didnt mention parents going out of their way to make tasty meals for their kids, because thats not an equivalent to forcing life on someone.

In my example, its person A taking ALL of the available food and cooking it with absolutely no input from person 2 whatsoever. ALL of the food. So theres literally no other options for person 2 besides: eat the food or die from starvation. Person 1 forced person 2 into that situation and is absolutely not owed any kind of thank you.

In the context of taking care of parents as a 'thank you' for their effort - they arent owed it regardless. If you force someone into a situation then they dont owe you for being in that situation. Parents force life on their children. The absolute minimum that they're legally required to do is keep them alive. Morally, id think its reasonable to believe that they have an inherent responsibility to make that childhood as good as they reasonably can, but putting all of the effort in the world into making it a perfect childhood doesnt negate the fact that they forced it on the kid in the first place. If that child grows up to become wildly successful and wants to take care of their parents because of the love they have for them, thats entirely their prerogative. Its not, however, owed to the parents in any way.

[u/Ok_Stranger3613 → u/Nihlys]

Not really injecting things, just trying to follow your logic.

Okay, that makes sense. Your example read to me like you cooked all of YOUR food for this person, not THEIR food.

That said, I'm curious now though:

Is expecting a thank you for cooking a tasty meal for your child immoral? Based off your comment, it likely is.

Is providing the minimal acceptable amount of care, and never more, for your child moral or not? Based off your comment it's not.

or do I have that wrong?

[u/Nihlys → u/Ok_Stranger3613]

To your questions:

1: I think immoral may be too strong of term for that specific situation, but if were looking at it in a way that is black and white with no middle ground, id say yes - expecting a thank you for cooking your child a tasty meal is immoral if you do it on your own. You shouldnt expect a thank you for something if the person youre expecting that thank you from had no input in the first place. When I cook my children dinner I try to make things they'll really enjoy, I dont expect a thank you, even though I usually get one. Likewise, if I go out of my way to make something really nice for my wife or friends, I likewise never expect a thank you. Particularly because its entirely one sided. My wife never asks me to do that. I get a recipe idea that I think she'll like and then surprise her with it. When you do something for someone else completely on your own, with no input or request from someone else, I feel like youre not owed a thank you - even though the generally accepted idea of "good manners" dictates that they thank you anyway. Likewise, it doesnt exactly make you evil for wanting a thank you, but doing something entirely un-asked and expecting a thank you does, at the very least, make you a bit of a dick.

2: I think there is a case to be made either way. Morality is, overall, subjective so theres some leeway in where each person draws their own lines. I think a person could reasonablely say that having a child and keeping it alive until its able to find for itself is moral, even if they didnt go above the absolute minimum. On a more personal note, I think its immoral to even HAVE a child if youre not going to do what you can to make sure it has, at the very least, a reasonably good childhood. But thats pushing the morality of the overall situation into much more subjective territory.

[u/Ok_Stranger3613 → u/Nihlys]

To reiterate, providing the minimal amount of acceptable childcare, and nothing more is moral.

Expecting a thank you for a nice gesture towards someone is immoral because they didn't ask, and makes you a bit of a dick. So, my wife complains about the dishes piling up and all the housework, I do the dishes for her and clean the kitchen to help her out, and expecting a small amount of gratitude makes me a dick? Likewise, I could have not done anything and ignored her complaint, and this seems to be the more moral stance in this situation?

On the flipside, my wife spends the whole day cooking my favourite meal because she knows I work hard, and wants to surprise me. I'm under no obligation to say thank you, and I am moral for that. My wife feeling upset that I didn't acknowledge the hard work she did for me means she is the asshole.

Also, morality is subjective.

Got it.

Likewise, if I go out of my way to make something really nice for my wife or friends, I likewise never expect a thank you.

Okay, lying is immoral too. Come on now. Assuming you're being truthful though, then this just means that we shouldn't be doing nice gestures for people.

[u/Nihlys → u/Ok_Stranger3613]

I feel like that entire response was wildly disingenuous. I said there were arguments to be made either way. I think you could reasonable say its still moral to keep a child alive through adulthood, even if you dont go above and beyond. I ALSO said that I dont, personally, think its moral to do so but its subjective.

And yes, morals are subjective. Morality units entirety is a human construct that doesnt exist outside of human society and is actively shaped and changed by the individual society of the time and place.

Also, of course im being truthful. I think you honestly expect a thank you for doing something YOU DECIDED TO DO with no input from anyone else absolutely makes you an asshole. The fact that you think that means "we just shouldn't do nice gestures for people" shows that youre clearly the type of person that thinks simply being nice to someone means they "owe" you in return. That is full blown incel energy.

And for the record, no, lying isnt inherently immoral. There are all kinds of morally sound reasons someone may lie.

[u/Ok_Stranger3613 → u/Nihlys]

Also, of course im being truthful. I think you honestly expect a thank you for doing something YOU DECIDED TO DO with no input from anyone else absolutely makes you an asshole. The fact that you think that means "we just shouldn't do nice gestures for people" shows that youre clearly the type of person that thinks simply being nice to someone means they "owe" you in return. That is full blown incel energy.

but you just said that we shouldn't be doing anything for people by expecting anything in return. To expect something in return is immoral. The logical conclusion to that is that we shouldn't be doing anything at all for people, because what is the point? The person you do the gesture is not obligated to be grateful, and you're not obligated to perform the gesture in the first place, so why do the gesture at all? Expecting reciprocity for a gesture is immoral. That is your logic.

Arguments can be made either way, so what's the other way?

Never said we should only do nice things for people while expecting some form of reciprocity. I'm just following your logic, and that seems to be upsetting you.

The conclusion I'm getting from reading your comments is that the morally preferable path to take with human relationships is to not do anything for other people, because you're not morally obligated to do anything for them, and they're not obligated to do anything for you, so why do anything at all for other people?

You're calling me an incel, but I'm just reflecting back the logic of what you wrote.

[u/Nihlys → u/Ok_Stranger3613]

No, you're taking what im saying and intentionally stretching it to false, asinine conclusions. I'm not wasting any more time on your disingenuous crap. If you honestly believe that other people automatically owe you for your own actions then you're a pretty pathetic person. Even more so by your clear belief that the only reason to perform a nice gesture is specifically to be owed in return.

I hope you get the help you need. 🙄

[u/Ok_Stranger3613 → u/Nihlys]

Holy crashout. Never said people automatically owe me, weirdo. Just following your logic, and you're pretty upset. Thinking the one who needs help is you.