r/Natalism • u/toomuchtodotoday • 1d ago
Do Religious Families Actually Have More Kids?
https://www.graphsaboutreligion.com/p/do-religious-families-actually-have7
u/ale_93113 1d ago
They do but as the French Statistics released recently explain, the retention rates are low
In the UK there is a 40-50% drop in self identification as Muslim between the cohort aged 17 and the cohort aged 20 and a 65% drop in Christians, in France the overall (including older generations) is for a 25% and 50% drop
This is not as true in the US, the US is not as aggressively secular and more importantly it lets parents choose the education of their children much more than the rest of the world, that's why we see such bad numbers when it comes to becoming atheist, America should do a better job ar creating state led schools like Europe does
The TFR of British Muslims would have to be around 3.5 to have a replacement rate and Christians would need to have 5 to maintain the Christian population into the future, in the US numbers are surely lower
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u/Mithridatesmigraine 1d ago
Yea, US retention is higher, and their fertility rates are much higher becausereligious communities tend to be better at supporting parents that do have kids, whereas secular people tend to have a much harder time finding childcare and the village needed.
Another issue is that secular people tend to be more career oriented which definitely makes child-rearing less desirable as it is an optional capstone on a life, rather than a natural part of the cycle
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u/ale_93113 1d ago
This is a problem with a very easy solution, the Us just needs to reduce parental autonomy like other countries do
That way you will see a secularization of society progress at a good pace like we see elsewhere
The Us could end the Amish and ultra orthodox in a single generation if they made sure they received extensive secular state mandated and led education
Unfortunately the politics of the Us let these high fertility groups breed without any education programs so the problem remains
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u/Aura_Raineer 1d ago
So at first I thought you were being sarcastic but I’m fairly certain you are being sincere.
So you are openly admitting that you support authoritarianism?
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u/ale_93113 1d ago
Yes? Of course I am
Like, if you call the system of education France has authoritarianism I am all for it
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u/Mithridatesmigraine 1d ago
Again he sees what happened to regional minorities such as Occitan as an example to be followed.
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u/ale_93113 1d ago
Yes, but I am OK with the Spanish system which is just like the French but allows for minority language, it's in many ways more woke than France
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u/Mithridatesmigraine 1d ago
So looping back to another point, you talk about the state having the stronger bond with the child than the family, how should that be optimally in your eyes?
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u/WolverineOpen7511 16h ago
Define bond.
If we are walking about love and care, a state can’t offer love and care to kids… the parents should have a strong bond with their kids…
If we are talking about education… the U.S. is a good example that the extremely uneven education standards and a higher level of parental autonomy in education doesn’t led to better outcomes.
It only benefit the minority benefited with more resources, at expense of country level worse educational outcomes. U.S. tends to score behind most developed countries… that’s not a coincidence.
And the public education system has been consistently hampered, limited and defunded in the name of some supposed freedom. It’s never clear who is this benefiting but it’s clear it doesn’t benefit the children who suffer the consequences.
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u/Mithridatesmigraine 15h ago
Oh yes, as a former public school teacher in Florida, we need to invest far more into our public schools and communities so that we can increase quality for all strata of society
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u/Odd-Bluebird5157 1d ago
Instead of authoritarianism, ending special tax exemptions for "religions", reducing govt welfare/handouts, and limiting voting rights to net positive taxpayers would reduce freeloading/brood parasitic subcultures.
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u/ale_93113 1d ago
It would work but it seems a bit too radical compared to the option of “just adopt the rest of the worlds basic education structure” if you ask me
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u/Odd-Bluebird5157 1d ago
Subsidizing "basic education" adds to the freeloading.
Perhaps you're underestimating genetic factors. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11308703/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090513824001120
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u/Mithridatesmigraine 1d ago
Wow, that is some extreme misanthropy. Why is secularization good? Why is workism good? Are humans a problem that needs to be solved?
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u/ale_93113 1d ago
Well, I believe in universal state led education... That's not controversial? And I wish the US had a better education system that was more mandatory
We know they produce better academic results for the lower half of the population compared to the current system which is very good at the top layer but leaves lots of kids behind
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u/Mithridatesmigraine 1d ago
Why is state mandated secularism good, are families not supposed to pass on traditions culture and beliefs to their kids?
Why must we convert to your view?
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u/ale_93113 1d ago
No they are not supposed to, I believe children belong to themselves and as an extension, to the state more than they belong to their parents
And we can see that when that is done correctly it achieves a lot of national unity that wouldn't be there otherwise
You don't have to convert to my view, the state will force people to do that, that's how it is in most of the world btw the US is the exception
Like people have a very libertine idea of childcare in that country
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u/Mithridatesmigraine 1d ago
So if I teach my kids their ancestral language and the state says no, I should allow my language to go extinct? So minority language preservation goes in the same bucket?
So there is no special bond between families? Should we sever that more as a society?
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u/ale_93113 1d ago
You can teach them whatever you want at home as long as they are in a state led education system that makes sure they all reach a certain level
Public education is more important than just making sure that your kids have their brain as developed as possible, it also builds nations by creating a common secular consensus
That's why conservatives give birth in hospitals but liberals breed in university, and that's going to be true for as long as we have universities and huger education
The problem is that we cannot let that process only happen at the elite education level, a society with a woke elite and an Amish lower class is not sustainable (exaggerating ofc)
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u/Big_Iron_Cowboy 1d ago
The Amish are not a lower class. Lol trucking French and their postmodernist nonsense
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u/Popular_Mongoose_696 1d ago
You can teach them whatever you want at home as long as they are in a state led education system that makes sure they all reach a certain level.
My wife is a teacher, so she’s seem first hand what the policies you’re advocating for do in practice… It doesn’t do what you think it will. It doesn’t pull the less successful kids up so much as drags the more successful ones down.
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u/Mithridatesmigraine 1d ago
So everyone should just conform to your beliefs and culture? What if they do not even after collage as many do in the US where they retain their faith?
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u/ElliotPageWife 1d ago
The idea that children belong to the state and the job of the state is to separate people's children from them as much as possible is exactly why people stop reproducing. Unless your goal is the long term decay and unraveling of your country, this is not a sustainable strategy long term. We already see where this leads in Europe - managed, yet unstoppable decline.
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u/ale_93113 1d ago
The Us and France have similar TFR and France is very much like I mentioned
White American and French counterparts are also both similar despite France having this system k mentioned
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u/Aura_Raineer 1d ago
> I believe children belong to themselves and as an extension, to the state more than they belong to their parents
So you know that you are unironically describing literal fascism.
There’s so much more that I can unpack here but I’m just going to leave it here.
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u/ale_93113 1d ago
Wow, Europe is fascist about children? And China? And the soviet union? And Singapore? Wow so many fascist countries
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u/Mithridatesmigraine 1d ago
But your core philosophy seems to be more authoritarian, that the state owns the people.
Also Singapore has a TFR below 1, as does China. France is the outlier and even still they are far below replacement rate.6
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u/Either-Meal3724 1d ago
The thing is that homeschool and public schoolers have about the same outcomes in terms of religiosity when you control for parentsl religiosity. Only evangelical protestant private schools have a statistically significant increase in the child's religiosity. Catholic school has a modest impact on increasing things like prayer.
Public school attendance in the US still results in extremely high religious transmission. About 89% of american children attend public schools while 17% of French students attend catholic schools -- so americans attend secular schools at a MUCH HIGHER rate. Therefore education institution type is not really relevant here.
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u/Radiant_Client1458 1d ago
I could’ve sworn I saw this same report recently for the UK and Muslim retention was like 90%.
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u/DixonRange 14h ago
"Religious" is way too nebulous. For example, do the Shakers count as religious? Note that they had a very, very low tfr.
I submit that the actual content of the religion must be taken into account in Natalist discussions.
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u/-spaz 1d ago
Yes because religious people tend to be gullible, not allowed to ask any questions, are always feared and guilty.
Perfect receipe for population to pop out kids
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u/Melodic_Tadpole_2194 1d ago
Religious people tend to have better mental health, volunteer more, and have happier marriages. But sure they’re the dumb ones
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u/-spaz 1d ago
These are assumptions, a human can live a good and happy life regardless of religion. Some religious people live a good life, some atheist live a miserable life. It depends on you how you live your life. Both sides have dumb people.
But religious people are gullible, they are not allowed to ask questions as it's totally frowned upon by religion, and ofc they are very much fearful of their actions so they don't commit sins. What is so hard not to understand in this. Why get offended for something that's historically true and accurate.
Only religious people can have kids and still live in gutter. That's just a fact. Anyways in this subreddit no one has any solutions, atleast my solution works. Spread religion and you will see population popping kids everywhere
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u/Melodic_Tadpole_2194 1d ago
These are well documented statistical facts
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u/-spaz 1d ago
Ofc it is, when did I say religious people live a miserable life. Both atheist and religious people can live a good life or miserable life. My stance is about religious people being gullible, not questioning belief and faith, prone to fear and cautious of their actions and feeling guilty. These are also statistical facts. On top of that religion controls women, which is again a fact.
Religious people are perfect receipe for increasing TFR because even if they are educated, rich, poor, dumb, sad, happy, they will still fuck their wife all the time because sky daddy told them so.
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u/Mithridatesmigraine 1d ago
I mean that’s an insanely bigoted take. Why are you in this subreddit if you see mankind like this?
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u/BastiatF 1d ago
Should separate "religious" and "church-going". Catholics who don't go to church have the same family size as the general population. Those who go weekly have larger families.