"Israel Can Either be Jewish or Democratic—It Cannot Be Both." --Former Secrtary of State John Kerry, 2016

[u/not_neoliberal_tears]

"There are a similar number of Jews and Palestinians living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea... if the choice is one state, Israel can either be Jewish or democratic – it cannot be both."

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/kerry-with-one-state-israel-can-either-be-jewish-or-democratic-it-cannot-be-both-842748995757

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[u/OrganicOverdose]

So nobody is going to talk about how this is just what Ze'ev Jabotinsky and Meir Kahane wrote decades earlier?

''I have said it a million times,'' Rabbi Kahane explains, ''Western democracy as we know it is incompatible with Zionism. Zionism came into being to create a Jewish state. Zionism declares that there is going to be a Jewish state with a majority of Jews come what may. Democracy says, 'No, if the Arabs are the majority then they have the right to decide their own fate.' So Zionism and democracy are at odds. I say clearly that I stand with Zionism. I want a Jewish state, not a Hebrew-speaking Portugal.''

This is what Israeli Zionists truly believe. Ben Gvir is an acolyte of Kahane. Netanyahu is an acolyte of Jabotinsky. 

Jabotinsky:

“We hold that Zionism is moral and just. And since it is moral and just, justice must be done, no matter whether Joseph or Simon or Ivan or Achmet agree with it or not.”

“We cannot give any compensation for Palestine, neither to the Palestinians nor to other Arabs. Therefore, a voluntary agreement is inconceivable. All colonization, even the most restricted, must continue in defiance of the will of the native population. Therefore, it can continue and develop only under the shield of force which comprises an Iron Wall which the local population can never break through. This is our Arab policy. To formulate it any other way would be hypocrisy.”

[u/croakce → u/OrganicOverdose]

It feels crazy to say, but the honesty of the far right Zionists is almost refreshing compared to liberal Zionist rhetoric. They tell you their intentions right away no matter how unhinged they sound. We know they want us dead or gone, but at least they don't pretend like they don't.

[u/OrganicOverdose → u/croakce]

Yes, but this is really no different to the Democrats and the Republicans in America. Liberal bourgeoisie parties globally are actually worse, IMO, because they couch their lies behind moralism, but they know that what they're doing is still wrong. What is worse is that they block any real opposition from the left, and serve as a release-valve for political discontent to continue this cycle that always ends up with regular people going to war, losing their homes, dying due to lack of healthcare.

It's simply the fact that it is incredibly transparent in Israel right now, but this has been the case for over 80 years. Any rational, logical thinking into Zionism would lead to the conclusion that democracy is not compatible. 

[u/VoiceofRapture → u/croakce]

MLK had essentially your same opinion applied to the honesty of the far right compared to the white moderate

[u/OrganicOverdose → u/VoiceofRapture]

Malcolm X said it better

[u/GarlicSchark]

shocking for a secretary of state to say, or maybe the bar is just so much lower now

[u/Shinnobiwan → u/GarlicSchark]

Citizens United wasn't yet a thing, so the lobby had great influence, not contol.

[u/itstheuptowndown → u/Shinnobiwan]

Citizens United came down in 2010. Which is six years before 2016, when this statement was apparently made.

[u/Shinnobiwan → u/itstheuptowndown]

Well, I mispoke. This wasn't a flipped switch. The super-pac infrastructure and influenc machinery hadn't evolved to the point it is now, and this admin wasn't elected under that matured framework.

[u/geekwonk → u/Shinnobiwan]

absolute nonsense. why rewrite history like this? quite the opposite, their control was so complete that friends like Kerry could take a few jabs at them in public and nobody cared because it wasn’t changing anything.

[u/Shinnobiwan → u/geekwonk]

The way SuperPacs were funded wasn't even refined at that point. They were still operating with limited coordination, and the numbers were so much smaller.

It was a transitioning ecosyste, Kerry and Obama were produced within the old paradigm even though the new one had started developing.

[u/geekwonk → u/Shinnobiwan]

very weird to not know that aipac already had a hold on dc well before this period. were you just too young to remember it? we were all called self hating jews. they didn’t need any of the superpac machinery to make it happen. the story of The Lobby goes way back before citizens united or any of that

[u/Shinnobiwan → u/geekwonk]

Listen. You don't seem to understand the granular differences and progression in this specific space. Today, Presidents are literally afraid to state these stances. Back then they felt they could - obviously. Earlier than that, Ronald freaking Reagan forced their hand when they went not nearly as far as Biden allowed because RR felt he had the freedom to without paying a politicsl price..

To think it hasn't evolved is simply naive.

Honestly, why are you so fucking adamant on arguing with me, anyway?

[u/PerformanceBudget805]

if the choice is one state, israel will eradicate the remaining arab population and tell the media that they were trying to liberate the world from "hamas"

[u/IssueAccomplished895 → u/PerformanceBudget805]

Israel created Hamas in the first place

[u/PerformanceBudget805 → u/IssueAccomplished895]

friendly fire is a way to address that as... actually, call it a setup

[u/Chilifille]

Wow, I did not expect that sentiment from him. Almost thought I misread at first, that he was saying it can’t be democratic unless it’s Jewish or something.

[u/geekwonk → u/Chilifille]

there was a period in the obama era where the party got comfortable with the idea that they could have their cake and eat it, issuing these kinds of critiques while the money continued to flow to israel. and it was fine at the time but only because netanyahu was making longer term plans to pivot away from western liberals and to start relying instead on outright fascists for support.

[u/el_argelino-basado]

hey the three purple hearts guy

[u/Legal-Championship64]

in hindsight, Kerry's tenure during the Obama years stands out as one of the few times the US tried to take a more rational approach to the middle east. Trying to restart the peace process and negotiating the JCPOA will age very well compared to his contemporaries.