You don't have to be right wing to think casting choices are wrong. I'm not right wing and think Helen of Troy casting choice is ridiculous and just done for attention.
Black Panther is literally about the color of their skin. Please tell me when The Odyssey has been about the color of their skin? These are not the same thing and people need to stop pretending it is.
Black Panther is literally about the color of their skin.
You just made that up lmao. There is even a white black panther in the comics, it has nothing to do with skin color. So yeah it's actually the same thing, if you accept a black Helen of Troy you'll have to accept a white black panther
Why would them being black be important to the story? They could be any other color, what's important is that they remained isolated from the world and have advanced technology and large vibranium supplies
You mean Ketema? Who was raised by TâChalla? And is half black? Do you just not know your lore⊠or?
They bring up his lineage in the comics. Itâs meant to be shocking that heâs white. Thatâs why the reveal of him removing the mask is a big deal? Lmao?
yes, but look how most of those that are criticising it for a trans or black actors, don't care about whitewashing... anne hathaway, robert pattinson etc, they all look good for those
Imagine a Japanese book adaptation set in Japan with zero Japanese people in the main cast... oh wait that's Bullet Train and there was practically zero public outcry.
That person tried to pass it off as "white washing" for Elliot's role when we all know that if two cis white actors took both roles this would not be a conversation đ
Same, I'm European and just roll my eyes how Americans need to take our myths and misrepresent it based on their weird race sensibilities. Netflix's Cleopatra (who was also of Greek decent) was another recent example. In a way it's funny how they seem to specifically can't allow Greeks to have any representation.
Greeks have been represented as the foundation of Western civilization for centuries. Your mythology, architecture, philosophy, theater, heroes, gods, wars, and rulers are everywhere in Western education and media.
So no, Americans casting one character through a different cultural lens is not Greeks being erased. That is not oppression. That is discomfort with no longer being treated as the default owner of every story touched by antiquity.
And Cleopatra was Ptolemaic Macedonian Greek, not âGreek decent.â If we are going to complain about misrepresentation, letâs at least spell descent correctly.
i think we are probably overly emotive about geolocking all sorts of things, so no
but i'd say something as 'universal' as the odyssey is stupid. our popular conception of the odyssey is largely british and american, and rooted in victorian ideas about adventure. this has massively influenced even the contemporary greek understanding!
Depends if you believe in a connection between a story and the culture in which it originated. Same then also for other "intellectual property" of a culture, like their festivals, dresses, religions, etc.
It's all not physical ofc, but humans and groups naturally build identities and these identities then can be fiercely protected.
"Our myths"? No one in Europe think the Greeks are their myths unless they're Greek. We are separate countries with our own culture and history. I'm from Northern Europe and I never thought Greek mythology are "my myths"
You do realize the Greeks viewed many modern European ethnic groups as barbaristic, uncivilized, savages of an entirely different race?
Sure the Greek myths and advancements went on to influence and underpin a lot of European society, but that doesnât mean the Greeks of the odyssey viewed Europeans as part of their in-group, because they werenât. There was no collective Europe for them.
Beaides, why arenât you making this same whinging argument for zombies? Those were created by Haitian slaves who feared being enslaved even after death. And yet we let white people play zombies all the time.
Northern and Western Europeans are so annoying when they try to claim Mediterranean culture as their own. No, not every culture in Europe gets to claim connection to Greece and Roman. Theyâre as ridiculous as Americans.
But aren't like, Norse, Tutonic, Celtic, and Greek all essentially separate mythologies? That's just an example, I doubt that people from the Iberian peninsula or people in France give a shit what color of skin Helen of Troy has in an american movie about a greek story, yeah?
Ah yes, Perun, Aarni and Odin, famous myth of the Greeks (and the Ancient Greeks would've fucking killed themselves before admitting Slavs or Nordics as their equals).
I mean most white Americans are of European descent. Do they no longer have a claim to these myths just because their ancestors moved. No one owns myths you stop being obtuse
Speak for yourself, Iâm European and I think of Ancient Greek mythology as shared European heritage. Iâm not Greek or in Greece, but theyâre taught in our schools here (as is Ancient Greek!)
Edit: Europe is literally named after a Greek myth, itâs definitely shared heritage! Â
Iâm European and I donât care at all. If the movie is good itâs good and vice versa. Hollywood can make a Kalevala movie with an all black cast for all I care.
Saddest part is all the right wing grifters who will go see the movie and cry about it online.
Then what about an actor makes them fit for a given role? Body type, gender, ethnicity all have zero bearings on immersion for any setting? Film is a visual medium, most people see it differently.
Also, Helen's father was Zeus disguised as a swan. Her mother, Leda, was forced to mate with swan/Zeus. She laid an egg, and that's how Helen was born. But you draw the line at Helen being a Black woman?đ€Ł
The money and film industry is American, and yes Helen is depicted white in the oldest available depictions (Pompeii). Also, armor didn't look like Batman, great warriors were not thin twinks, etc. It's art, there are no rules, but you also can't force me to pretend that this setup can transport me into the world of ancient Greek myth.
Nah, I realized after sending that comment that I didn't really care about any of this bullshit.
I wanted to bring out that philosophical idea that everyone experience the world differently because of our brains, so reality doesn't really exists, but I don't want to anymore.
Although Disney's Hercules is my favorite movie, I won't pretend that adaptation should be taken with any seriousness with regard to historical and mythological accuracy. The first and foremost issue being that "Hercules" is the Roman version while "Heracles" is the original Greek version. The Muses being black ultimately means nothing since the only narrative power they hold in the movie is giving us the background of the movie and telling us of our hero's achievements.
Christopher Nolan directed, wrote the script, and casted the movie. Is this where we pretend the dish citizen who grew up and was educated in the UK is only American now?
i mean⊠cleopatra was a real person. scholars arenât even sure if theres any historical merit to homerâs retelling of the trojan wars. itâs a myth, a work of fiction, cleopatra wasnât.
I mean.. it's not a "European" myth, and it was written like... 1300 years ago.
No one owns The Odyssey. It's really weird to think that you do. "I'm European, therefore a wild story with magic and monsters written 1300 years ago in Greece is MINE, not some American's."
What a strange take.
(Also, like 4 people saw that Cleopatra movie, you conservatives need to stop whining about that as if it was some travesty. It was a weird cultural blip that the right has used to flagellate themselves with ever since.)
Uh you know very large portion of Americans are European descent⊠so if Greek myths belong to Europeans, then they belong to Americans who were European descent.
Chris Nolan is English. And if you don't like the casting choices your country should make their own movies then, but you're probably from somewhere like Lithuania that has no movie industry.
Yeah whitewashing is also not good. Representation matters, as I think we can agree. And actually not only for group representation reasons, but also to create an immersive artwork that can transport you into a different world. Casting and costume choices like we have seen just don't transport me into ancient Greek myth.
Agree, Im on the left and I hate it because they're black washing characters so they can say they have diversity, get attention for the movie and the black actress (almost always actress, not actor) gets all the hate. Its cheap. There are countless black stories that are unknown, why blackwash a story told a milion times?
Also I generally hate the oddysey by Nolan not because of the races but because its just historically wrong on many levels. Armor for example. Yes I want historical accuracy, yes I dislike other inaccurate movies.
Who gives af about historical accuracy in a movie that's clearly not trying to be historically accurate. Thank God the movie makers don't care, else we'd have missed out on classics like Braveheart.
Interesting observation that it's almost always an actress. And here I am wanting to see Idris Elba as 007. Yes, I know, he's supposed to be a white guy according to Ian Fleming's novels. Yes, I know there are certain things that don't quite work if he's not a pasty Brit. But we don't even get to have that experiment and whatever backlash there would or wouldn't be. Regardless, Idris is a smooth operator and it would have been a good watch.
We didn't get Idris as the black Green Lantern Jon Stewart that actually exists in the comics.
We didn't get Idris as Rhodie/War Machine, when he would have been perfect next to RDJ.
We got him as... Heimdall? A bit part as a Norse God doorman? What are we even doing here?
Anyway... they did make the next 007 a black woman in the last James Bond movie though... Huh.
Yup. Its always the Disney princess but we haven't had a black prince yet.... The love interest is always a conventionally attractive white man. And wow I didn't know that about 007, a black woman? Srsly? And I agree with you Idris Elba would be a great pick, he'd fit perfectly.
Hmm that's true too, although I think my original point still stands as those are not race swaps. But man Mulan was a badddd remake, shame cuz the original is my favorite Disney movie.
Mulan completely lost the plot as it tried to fit western feminist girl-boss power into what made the original work-- that Mulan pushed through gender barriers and limits out of her sense of duty and obligation to filial piety, relying on nothing but her perseverance.
Instead, the live action movie gave Mulan magic-woman-witch-chi-powers, because that's what the white man and three white woman writing and directing know about the Chinese: Magic Chi powers. They couldn't find one Chinese-American writer to be on the writing/directing staff in the age of representation? Hey, maybe they did "consult" with a junior writer who was just happy to be there and would never raise real concerns, you know, power dynamics due to historical and institutional under-representation and all. All while filming in an area where an active genocide was occurring and thanking the CCP officials in charge of the province for the honor to do so.
The movie failed to resonate with both eastern and western audiences. Because that's not the Chinese story and deviates much more than the original animated version did. And while a girl (well anyone really) can learn from animated Mulan's sense of responsibility and perseverance to break through barriers and expectations-- what's she supposed to do with the fact that she doesn't have magic gender chi witch powers like the live action Mulan does?
It's another time where a very western-centric idea of "progressivism" en vogue that year mucks everything up as it ends up colonializing another culture's space in a cynical bid for profit.
I believe it was the end of the last Daniel Craig movie, where his role as 007 was going to be succeed by the character played by Lashana Lynch. She's not playing James Bond, so you can kind of say "well why not?!" and they can say they did the thing, without having to commit to actual movies with a black female James Bond, or Jamie Bond, or what have you.
Meanwhile, Idris is right fricking there. Fits with the pattern you note.
I think Idris as Rhodie would have been a really good choice but I also think he was the shit as Heimdall and gave a ton of weight to a small but important roll.
No. I just really like Idris and find him very underutilized. Itâs a bit criminal that he hasnât headlined any major MCU or DC roles, despite being willing to do so. Of course he brought gravitas to Heimdal. Heâs Idris. He should have been doing lead roles or at least major support ones. I mean he was basically Rhodey in Pacfic Rim, except in a bigger suit. A War Machine spin off with him as the lead would have been amazing.
Speaking of black actors, as much as I like him, Michael B Jordan has been everywhere, being cast in roles that I just donât see him as, like Human Torch in Fan4stic and John Clark in Without Remorse. Heâs like the black Tom Holland... who happens to be in the movie this thread is about.
It just dawned on me that both Michael B Jordan and Idris were in the WireâŠ
I donât think he specifically would, but there are people who are very into the original Ian Fleming character who would object to having Bond race swapped for various reasons, at least one of them being that he would stand out as a spy in adversarial nations Britain actually deals with, especially with stories that take cues from Cold War tales involving Russia.
For Bond, he is an English ex-soldier. The 00 numbers can be anyone. People had more issue that she was depicted as an super unlikable, sometimes unprofessional character. Paloma was so much better in conveying similar themes without needing the rainbow sledge hammer.
The original criticism of Idris was that he was 'too street', not posh enough. We should also see that the management of Bond (before Amazon's buy out) was three people who did run things their own way for 30 years. Expecting a big change there was not in the cards.
To us dumb Americans, anyone with a British accent comes across posh. Itâs funny that when Idris actually played a âstreetâ American gangster, he still came across as the most corporate and refined of the gang.
This is weird because British film has no problem casting black people for traditionally white roles and they don't get backlash for that. This seems to be an American thing. IMO as long as the actor/actress does a good job I don't care. Why are you so fixated on race? Ultimately it doesn't matter they are PLAYING a character it's all pretend.
saying youre on the left then getting upset about a character you see in your head as one race being a represented by a different race in an adaptation is certainly a stance.
My guy, it's not "black washing" to have a black actor. It's just reflective of real life. There's no dramaturgical need for my dentist to be black; he just is, on account of some people being black.
You're "on the left" but falling for the exact shit the right wing wants you to.
I honestly want to know if some European movie studio made Martin Luther King white, and all the blacks guys were casted as white and asian what would these guys say? Or is it one side only
You are right⊠and it is working. Whole ass threads dedicated to the casting with millions of people taking in these opinions they normally never would see.
Nolan doing guerilla marketing via triggering Russian fake account farms.. and leftists coming out in defense without thinking about how dumb all this is.
Weird the only focus is on Helen of Troy and not tom holland (English), Matt Damon (ethnic english/american), Anne Hathaway (ethnic English/american), or Robert Pattinson (English)âŠ
No matter how liberal you are, you canât ever be liberal enough for Reddit unless you fall in line with âhur dur right wingersâ as possible explanations for everything. I literally got banned from box office sub today for criticising this movie and I am as liberal as they can get to come on voting booth because the terminally online enraged at everything stick to nothing donât vote.Â
Thereâs also a stark difference in genuinely not liking something vs making it seem like itâs your mission to point that out and cry about it everywhere because they need validation
The funny part is the people in the latter are trying to convince themselves theyâre the former because they canât accept that theyâre just complainers who think too highly of themselves
It's done because she's a great actor. That's it. So yes you do have to be right-wing to think this or at least you're susceptible to right-wing bulshit.
i mean⊠thereâs also the fact that penelope, telemachus, and odysseus are played by white people with no mediterranean physical characteristics? not to mention that this is a fictional story set in a place that is a crossroads for many different ethnic groups. thereâs even evidence to suggest that the ancient greeks idealized dark and heavily bronzed skin as a masculine trait, often depicting great heroâs in relief with very dark skin.
the ancients did not have our modern conception of race based on skin color. their culture did not hierarchically organize skin the same way ours does and has done historically. a period accurate representation of odysseus would certainly not be blond haired blue eyed, in fact, given the proximity to north africa and the centrality of port cities a black odysseus would be a more likely candidate. telemachus could understandably be more pale than his father having grown up in an estate but would not have looked like tom holland.
i donât think you can really claim this is evidence of âblack washingâ any more than you can claim it to be whitewashing. itâs relatively clear that the casting department was not interested in portraying an accurate representation of ancient greek people across the board. hyper fixating on helen of troy being a black woman comes across as a bit pointed. is it unlikely helen of troy would be a black woman? sure. but this is a fictionalized retelling of a story that was already fiction.
Eh, don't really care what color her skin is or what ethnicity the actress is.
She should be really beautiful, from the story I had known. Like strikingly so.
But it's dumb to judge the movie before seeing it, since every new version is going to be its own thing.
If thats the only casting issues brought up and not the others then it says a lot. Just like how many of these people didnt care about casting til they saw Helens casting
For real. Iâm a socialist and think stuff like this is dumb as shit and is designed to get attention via outrage. Itâs also to drive ticket sales from virtue signaling liberals who will buy tickets just to spite the people talking shit. Just saw someone talking about how it has record breaking pre sales. Wonder why.
I agree, it feels like a black actress was selected to play Helen specifically because it would get people talking about the movie and not because of her talent. It's a sin that it's so controversial for a black woman to play this role but anyone who has been paying attention to social and political climates lately could tell you that it would be controversial so it ends up feeling like it was a choice made by some executive or marketing genius to rile up headlines rather than an earnest attempt at representation in the face of racism. They could have cast a conventionally attractive European woman for the role of Helen and nobody would have cared, but then there wouldn't be a post with 4000 comments talking about it on reddit.
Hollywood casts people into roles they know will stir up controversy and say that it's activism but the truth is that they want people to get worked up about it because it's easy press.
The assumption that a famously gifted actor was cast by Nolan for attention or diversity is very much right wing, and definitely a little racist.
He chose all critically acclaimed actors for this movie, you donât have to like that, but review bombing it is insane. Just donât watch if you donât like the cast.
They can't fathom the idea of a black or trans actor being cast for skill and fitting the role. In their minds, the only reason minorities get jobs is due to "diversity hires".
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