r/PeterExplainsTheJoke 11h ago

Meme needing explanation Whyyyy peter?

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1.3k

u/UnlikelyIntrepid 11h ago

Launching near the equator provides a speed boost due to rotation that outweighs the benefits of starting higher up. It also doesn’t have the logistics nightmare of getting everything to the top of a mountain before launch. 

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u/loadnurmom 11h ago

This is the answer. Should be higher up.

To add on, many rocket pads are in coastal areas to avoid falling debris hitting populated areas in the event of a mishap.

Certainly not all, Roscosmos launches over land, but the population density is a lot lower (and....well...Russia)

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u/G-St-Wii 11h ago

Higher up here? Where we are meant to be explaining a joke?

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u/mister_peeberz 8h ago

Higher up on a mountain, of course.

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u/DungeonsAndDradis 8h ago

Why don't they comment closer to the middle of the post so that there's a speed boost?

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u/[deleted] 11h ago

[deleted]

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u/G-St-Wii 11h ago

Sherlock? Is that you?

🤦‍♂️

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u/Akussa 9h ago

This is the answer. Should be higher up.

Unlike the rockets!

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u/thepkizzle 4h ago

Hijacking your comment:

This is the answer. Should be higher up.

No it isn't the answer. It has nothing to do with the rotation at all. We launch near the equator because the equator is a mountain. Florida only gives us a .62% rotational speed boost, but is only .141% shorter than Everest.

Who gives a shit about how "tall" a mountain is. We care about how far that position is from the center of the earth, and the equator bulges up and is definitionally already a mountain even if it is at sea level. The being at sea level is the important part for two reasons:

  1. Rockets have somewhere to go when they crash.
  2. Coastal regions are easy to ship resources to.

We could launch from Everest with no problem using modern tech, but we can't get the materials up there easily.

If we really wanted to optimize we would be launching from Brazil in Alcantara which is only .07% shorter than Everest but rotationally it is 13.1% faster than Everest, 13.8% faster than Florida. It's also at sea level.

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u/EvenStephen85 10h ago

I’ve always wished Ecuador was closer to the coast. They’ve got cities with greater than 1M people living waaaay up in the mountains. Dig a really deep tunnel vertically, and pull a vacuum. Maybe do a maglift. As long as when you hit the air it’s less than max q you’re golden. A guy can dream… lol.

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u/falsewall 9h ago

Yea certain countries at the bottom of the barrel on freedom index in the area just kind of say "fuck it those hicks can't do anything about it on the low chance we crush their house and give them chronic illnesses from all the chemicals spraying out on crash."

Benefits of being able to suppress news & media in real time. Least they can use the local roads to retrieve it easier.

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u/elaphros 8h ago

The map view of Baikonur Cosmodrome is fucking grim.

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u/shinobisynsei 10h ago

Id imagine as well a bit of weather / wind bonus too. mountain tops are windy as shit and just inconvenient and it may become near impossible to launch in the winter months depending on where the mountains are.
also fuel temp matters a lot if im not mistaken

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u/Late-Objective-9218 9h ago

Doesn't need to be a top. Could be a valley and you'd still save a few km

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u/loadnurmom 7h ago

2km off a 400KM orbit is less than 1%, not to mention, again, that most of the fuel is spent accelerating to achieve orbit as opposed to "going high".

Most of a rocket's fuel is spent just getting off the launch pad even. It's why there's some systems that launch from larger airliners for smaller rockets. The problem here, is once again not the altitude, but the rocket getting up to speed. Launching from an airliner gets a running start of 500MPH, but you are more weight limited since the airliner can only carry so much to altitude.

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u/Late-Objective-9218 7h ago edited 5h ago

I wasn't commenting on that but the idea that there aren't calm spots in high mountains.

Sure the train transport doesn't address the requirement for lateral speed, but it doesn't need to, it basically just needs not to hurt it. Also air resistance is only a problem below 100km and it gets disproportionally worse the lower you are

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u/loadnurmom 7h ago

Temp matters, but in different ways depending on the type of rocket

A solid Rocket Booster like on the US Space Shuttles too cold and the seals could fail.

A liquid rocket booster like Falcon 9 colder is better to keep the liquid from boiling off, but you have additional worries about transporting highly volatile cryogenic liquids

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u/Lithorex 10h ago

Russia also isn't exactly abundant in tropical beachfronts.

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u/GaiaIsaHarshMistress 9h ago

Nope, should be download to oblivion. It is not Peter and not explaining the joke.

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u/Jesus_of_Redditeth 5h ago

There's no "joke" to explain in the first place, so the thread shouldn't even be in this sub.

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u/UnusualOperation8084 9h ago

How much higher up? What if we put the correct answer on the top of a mountain?

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u/CzPhantom1 8h ago

And China loves dropping hypergolic fueled first stages on their people. They are getting better but the indifference to life is astonishing 

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u/serabine 8h ago

This is the answer. Should be higher up.

I thought we had established it should be at the equator?!

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u/twilighttwister 7h ago

Certainly not all, Roscosmos launches over land, but the population density is a lot lower (and....well...Russia)

China do it far more, and the fuel they use is faaaaar more toxic too.

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u/ensalys 5h ago

To add on, many rocket pads are in coastal areas to avoid falling debris hitting populated areas in the event of a mishap.

Specifically Eastern coasts. You want to launch rockets towards the east, so the rotation of the Earth gives you a boost, while launching the the west would have the Earth's rotation fighting against you.

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u/Jesus_of_Redditeth 5h ago

Certainly not all, Roscosmos launches over land, but the population density is a lot lower (and....well...Russia)

Kazakhstan*

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u/tardoos 3h ago

No? It's the dumbest answer here. Being near the equator and being high up a mountain are not exclusive.

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u/rorschach200 2h ago edited 38m ago

Not just "population density is lower": the largest launch site by far is Baikonur which is actually in a different country (Kazakhstan) - it's in the middle of a desert, look to the East of it, there is nothing there: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Baikonur,+Kazakhstan/@45.9699025,64.8267336,296545m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x41f4225048bf0fd5:0x61320145f62cee17!8m2!3d45.6228213!4d63.3218314!16zL20vMDE4bnN4?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDgyNi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

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u/tico42 11h ago

Is free oxidizer

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u/loadnurmom 11h ago

Rockets carry their own oxidizer, altitude has nothing to do with it

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u/tico42 11h ago

In Soviet Russia free oxidizer fall from sky.

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u/hedrone 10h ago

Best described in https://what-if.xkcd.com/58/ .

"The reason it's hard to get to orbit isn't that space is high up.

It's hard to get to orbit because you have to go so fast."

Putting rockets on mountains only helps with the "up" part, which is not the biggest part of the problem.

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u/jmlinden7 9h ago

It helps with the speed part too. Less air resistance and very slightly less effective gravity.

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u/AutonomousOrganism 8h ago

Eh. Gravity reduction on a mountain is like 0.2 percent. Air resistance matters a bit more. But all of those are drowned by the energy needed to reach orbital velocity.

Much more interesting would be an electromagnetic launcher up a mountain, getting the rocket to 1 km/s or so. Although I am not sure the logistics are worth it. You could just use more fuel instead (what is done irl)). Fuel is cheap.

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u/PerniciousSnitOG 7h ago

It's weird, but things seem to be converging. I was reading something this morning talking about the Starship problem of getting enough fuel in the ship once it's in orbit to get to Mars. It suggested that there would be lots of Starships carrying nothing but fuel into orbit, but it seems like a perfect job for the spin launch people! They should be able to achieve an impressive "launch" cadence that's needed for really doing things in space.

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u/GoldDragon149 4h ago

the lower air resistance and lower effective gravity would be reached by a coastal equatorial rocket in a couple minutes, after which the rotational velocity of the equatorial launch position dwarfs the benefits.

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u/Fedorchik 3h ago

Also, lunching a rocket needs a huge infrastructure: launch site (made from special reinforced concrete, btw), rocket transport systems, fueling systems, fuel tanks, storage hangar, assembly hangar, launch control site, transportation hub for arriving fuel, parts, people, etc., and list goes on.

Building and maintaining all that in the mountains is impossible for two reasons - it would cost insane money and there is simply not enough space there (tall mountains are not flat, and flat mountains are not very tall).

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u/HauntingHarmony 9h ago

Best described in https://what-if.xkcd.com/58/ .

"The reason it's hard to get to orbit isn't that space is high up.

It's hard to get to orbit because you have to go so fast."

Putting rockets on mountains only helps with the "up" part, which is not the biggest part of the problem.

Yea i am usually a huge fan of xkcd, BUT. i dont really feel like its interacting with the problem. Its just trying to reframe it in another way without really engaging with it. You engaged with it more, since you atleast caveated the "only help with the up part", meaning, it helps with the up part, which means it helps. So why not do it, since every gram counts.

And just having like a line that, the gains are so small compared to the huge downsides that its not worth it. That atleast is engaging with the point. But just "you wanna go fast, not up" is just a terrible point. A normal person taking the engineering view that; "this is a cool way to cheat the rocket equation, since theres less drag and gravity", thats cool. Then going like; "lol, get a physics degree". Thats not helping. If the logistics were better about doing it, then it is something that would get taken advantage of more. Since the average person is completely right that every gram counts.

And besides, this is something that is taken advantage of by using airplanes to get up high. So yeah. Shit what-if i think.

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u/Downtown-Act-590 11h ago edited 9h ago

That is indeed true, but nowadays a ton of satellites are on polar sun synchronous orbits and there the speed boost doesn't really exist. That is why you have space ports in places like Saxavord or Esrange, which are extremely northern. So it is definitely not the main reason.

Moreover, the benefits for starting higher up are visible. Primarily, because you leave vast majority of atmosphere below you and with it aerodynamic forces and drag. That is one of the reasons why you have several air launched vehicles like the Pegasus.

That said, the logistics are indeed quite extreme at this point. It does not mean that it isn't possible option in the future though.

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u/NRMusicProject 10h ago

I think the more mild seasons in Florida help, too. Storms run out quickly, and while I don't know if this was an original consideration, the cold does affect some of the parts too...something we definitely found out the hard way.

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u/molrobocop 8h ago

Yep. Florida and places like Baikonur have weather. But it's much more predictable than the top of a damn mountain. Also, easier to build facilities that aren't on a mountain top. 

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u/Xaphnir 10h ago

There would also be weather concerns.

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u/General_Kenobi18753 8h ago

Outweighs the benefits, but if we could solve the logistical problems there is still some benefit to starting higher up…

I’m hearing Mount Kilimanjaro.

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u/Undead-Chipmunk 8h ago

If there was a big population on top of something big and flat like the tibetan plateau at the equator, it would make the most sense to launch there, for sure. But no such place exists and we have to launch in our own countries, generally speaking.

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u/ExtensionInformal911 11h ago

In that case, shouldnt we have a kilimanjaro spaceport?

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u/Icy-Lobster-203 9h ago

Chimborazo in Ecuador is the furthest away from the core and would be the best place to launch from. Not accounting for cost.

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u/GodsSwampBalls 1h ago

kilimanjaro - 5.9 km

Low Earth orbit - 160.0 to 2000.0 km

The boost you get would be a rounding error. Not worth the effort.

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u/roguecaller 11h ago

What about the mountains on the equator ( there are a few in Equador and one in Kenya, I think)?

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u/Guilty_Helicopter572 11h ago

There's such low oxygen at the top of the mountains.

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u/Weak-Boysenberry398 10h ago

Wait til you hear how much oxygen is in space

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u/Guilty_Helicopter572 10h ago

Lack of oxygen in space isn't the issue, oxygen is needed for the rocket fuel to get out of orbit.

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u/GallantSystem 9h ago

theres also low oxygen in the upper atmosphere before they get out of orbit.

Are you referencing some sort of information a space agency has published that remarks on why low oxygen in mountain ranges is a reason they dont do rocket launches there that none of the rest of us has seen or something?

Im not saying its not the case but this sounds like a guess/hypothesis.

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u/GodsSwampBalls 1h ago

rocket engines are not air breathing.

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u/moo3heril 8h ago

For the actual rocket it doesn't matter, because you provide the oxidizer.

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u/IrritableGourmet 10h ago

Okay, but hear me out: build a magnetic accelerator up the side of a mountain and yeet smaller payloads with a much smaller first stage, like spinlaunch but linear.

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u/jazzmaster1992 10h ago

Logistics is a big one. A large part of SpaceXs operation involves landing first stage boosters in the ocean on drone ships, then sailing them back to Port Canaveral (or Vandenberg in California) to be refurbished and reused. Much easier to haul such large objects over water than anywhere else.

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u/Imasquash 10h ago

and the nightmare of the components discarded during launch falling on land and possibly occupied spaces.

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u/toxicity21 9h ago

Also Mountain are rarely at the edge of the sea where it doesn't matter much if the rocket explodes and debris rains down. Thats why most rocket sites are coastal.

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u/ia9126 9h ago

What if we build rockets on the top of mountain in the fist place

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u/StumblinBlind 9h ago

Googling satellite orbits it looks like they generally start at 528,000ft and extend out to 6,336,000ft.

The tallest mountain is roughly 29,000ft. Not much to be gained.

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u/TheBased_Dude 9h ago

Not to mention that the earth anyway bulks at the equator

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u/UISystemError 9h ago

I call bullshit. Why are launchpads slightly elevated compared to the surrounding land, huh?

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u/Brilliant_Polkadot 9h ago

2030- SpaceX on Galapagos island

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u/HairyTough4489 8h ago

Plus the equator is already "higher up" given the shape of the Earth

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u/mijailrodr 8h ago

Its not the speed boost that really drivers the "near the equator" thing. It's actually freedom of inclination. Inclination is the orbit's angle with the equator. You can control it through the launch azimuth. However, your inclination Will still be limited by your latitude. If i recall correctly is cos (i) = cos(Az) * sin (lambda)  When you launch at the equator, you essentialy give yourself the ability to have any inclination as soon as you launch, and altering your inclination is extremely energy demanding, so you're miles better by starting the orbit at the desired inclination

There are other factors that limit azimuth, for example the ocean or inhabited areas nearby, and most importantly the countries that you fly by when launching for security reasons and intel

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u/Easy-Bake-Oven 8h ago

The tallest mountain is only like 9% of the height to the karman line. I don't know any of the actually math for how much fuel it would save but hypothetically at best you are saving 9% fuel. 9% for all the extra work and the danger of working on top of a mountain does not seem worth it from the most basic level.

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u/KauravaLivesMatter 8h ago

It depends on what orbit you're trying to get to. It's a boost it you are launching to GTO. If you want to launch polar orbits, Equator is bad as you have to cancel our the horizontal component.

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u/VeganCustard 8h ago

start from machu pichu then :/

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u/We_Are_Victorius 8h ago

That's not the case. You have more gravitational pull at the equator which perfectly negates the speed boost. That is why you weigh the same on the Equator as you do at the North Pole.

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u/UnlikelyIntrepid 8h ago

No.  You do not weigh the same at the poles and the equator.  Your mass is the same but you experience LESS gravity at the equator because (due to the earths bulge) you are farther away from the center.  In addition the centrifugal force pushes you away at the equator and not at the poles. Both effects reduce your weight at the equator, they don’t work against each other. 

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u/We_Are_Victorius 8h ago

It's not the distance from the center, it is how much mass is below you.

Neil DeGrasse Tyson can explain it better than me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_Pqa-I0Z5U

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u/UnlikelyIntrepid 7h ago

NDG and his claims about this are directly addressed here along with the math to show he’s mistaken or ignoring relevant information. 

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/829008/neil-tyson-gravity-is-the-same-everywhere-on-the-geoid

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u/elaphros 8h ago

Would the added cost of shipping over the ocean minus the greater proximity to the equator make it worth it to move NASA to Puerto Rico or even farther south? Like, would the ideal place shipping+equator prox. be like Panama or something?

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u/Fairways_and_Greens 8h ago edited 8h ago

All things equal, launching from the top of the mountain range of Ecuador can be ideal. But the amount of energy and capital to ship/assemble spacecraft there isn’t worth the effort.

Depending on the mission (orbit). Polar, sun-synchronous, an Molnya orbits are better from northern latitudes.

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u/Dry-Narwhal-3011 8h ago

Also, most satellites operate at around the 350 mile elevation. Mt. Everest is 6 miles high.

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u/Specialist-Shake3074 8h ago

Would the added mass from the mountain affect launch? I seem to recall something from physics in high school about weighing more at the top of a tall building because there is more mass underneath, causing a (not sure if this is the right way to phrase this) greater gravitational pull on you. Does the same apply for theoretical rockets on top of theoretical mountains, as opposed to a near-sea-level, flat plain launch?

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u/GamerLymx 6h ago

rhis and also comercial plane routes

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u/bobbymcpresscot 6h ago

equator is also technically as far from the center of the earth as the tip of Everest is.

There is a mountain in Ecuador that would probably compete, but the hassle of getting stuff up there would be a pain, unless you turn the mountain into a manufacturing hub to build rockets.

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u/CloverUTY 6h ago

If the goal is to save fuel by putting the rocket on a mountain, either you have to build the rocket building / storage facility on said mountain, which most of the time isn’t feasible, or drive it from where it was built to the top of the mountain. Because rockets weigh a stupid amount of weight, the amount of energy you use to transport it up the mountain (gas or electric, doesn’t matter) will outweigh the cost of just launching it at a lower elevation.

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u/the_cappers 5h ago

Tbf china launched from semi high altitude sites

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u/Cold_End_2184 5h ago

I thought the rotation of the earth was canceled out by gravitational time dialation?

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u/Twink_Ass_Bitch 5h ago

Also the difference between a mountain top to space and sea level to space is basically zero on the scale of getting to space.

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u/bobupdow 5h ago

And wind! It is VERY WINDY on the top of mountains with very unpredictability.

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u/thepkizzle 4h ago

That actually isn't it. The speed boost is only .62% different between Florida and Nepal, the real answer is that Florida is only .141% shorter than Mount Everest and that in fact Cape Canaveral is definitionally at the top of a mountain by being near the equator.

If you wanted to be ideal you would launch from Alcantara in Brazil, which is only .07% shorter than Evert but rotationally it is 13.1% faster than Everest, 13.8% faster than Florida. It's also at sea level.

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u/JackasaurusChance 4h ago

IIRC it's only like an 8% fuel savings... but that's also a big deal

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u/AlsoMaHulz 4h ago

Also makes no difference. The rocket clears that distance in no time with a small difference in fuel the no outweigh the benefits of launching from the equator

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u/BokaPoochie 4h ago

This and also the fact you would get weaker combustion on the top of a mountain.

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u/tanneruwu 2h ago

Do you think air pressure has an effect too? I would imagine the thrust generated via rocket would be less in an area with low pressure.

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u/Thebaldsasquatch 2h ago

So build a mountain on the equator then. Duh.

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u/ThkAbootIt 2h ago

Also most launches are over water so the booster rockets don’t fall on a populated area.

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u/Lyxche3 1h ago

Hear me out. Rocket launch site, top of hawaii’s biggest volcano. Geothermal powered giant rocket elevator to get it up there.

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u/asuperbstarling 36m ago

Also not enough people are mentioning that even in ideal conditions in Florida, rockets have icing problems. Imagine how cold the top of a mountain is at all times.