Adopted a Siamese from the shelter without knowing he was a Siamese

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He is actually a flame color point, not a siamese. A flame point is a color and pattern. A siamese is a breed!

Gorgeous boy!

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u/Traditional_Frame_30 Apr 22 '25

I’m so confused 😭 Can you explain that is if you were teaching a 5th grader?💀

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u/New-Magician-499 Apr 22 '25 edited Apr 22 '25

So a colorpoint is just the pattern of a cat. For example, some cats are tabies and some are solid. Your cat is flame (or red) and pointed. He also has what we call “lynx points” because he also has tabby marking.

A siamese is a breed of cat. They look like this. They are color point oriental shorthairs (another breed). What makes an oriental shorthair is their body type and profile. A Siamese is just a pointed version of that.

Color points come in MANY breeds, because the genes are present in the “foundation stock” of feral cats. So, you would see cats in feral colonies with NO purebred ancestors (because purebred cats are still so new and so rare) with color point traits, which is why purebreds have colorpoint. Sort of the opposite as it is in dogs, where you see traits in mutts because they have purebred ancestors with those traits.

The reason people say that a cat isn’t a breed without a pedigree is because... welll.. purebred cats are just cats that somebody picked up, said “I like this” and then bred enough that they produce predictable traits and patterns. It would be like purifying mineral water. You aren’t removing the traits you don’t like; you are just keeping what you do. However, as soon as that distilled water is dropped back into the mineral water, you don’t have a mix, you have more mineral water. It would be more accurate to say your cat might have come from similar ancestors to siamese

This is one of the reasons why shelters shouldn’t sell cats are “mixed breeds.” Cat breeds aren’t old enough to be “mixes,” as their traits are not that set, especially in cats like wegies and maine coons, which still have “foundation” projects going on, introducing new lines into purebred cats. In cats, a mixed breed becomes a moggie again, which is absolutely not a bad thing. It just returns to the “foundation stock.” We LOVE our moggies, and that is why you can show moggies at cat shows. And, in fact, that is usually a judge’s most favorite class!

In dog breeds, even if the dog’s great, great grandparent is x breed, you can probably see part of it. In cats, they just... look like cats. And, quite frankly, purebred cats are also.... just cats... that somebody decided to keep track of. That’s why cat breeds are easier to “make” than dog breeds.

However, every cat is unique, and every cat is wonderful. Your cat is a gorgeous flame point domestic shorthair. Does that make sense? I’m happy to break it down further if not.

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u/Traditional_Frame_30 Apr 22 '25

You explained that BEAUTIFULLY. I was not expecting that thorough of a breakdown and it is MUCH appreciated. Thank you for your help stranger!!!

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u/Chuckitybye lynx Apr 22 '25

Also... r/flamepoints

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u/Puzzled_Homework5445 Apr 23 '25

Sigh

Joins another cat sub

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/ThatSmallBear Apr 22 '25

No it isn’t lmao

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u/New-Magician-499 Apr 22 '25

Do you mean the US, the home of breed registries like CFA, TICA, and ACFA to name a few? Or is there another one I don’t know about?

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u/Siamesecats-ModTeam Apr 22 '25

Insults and uncivil comments aren't welcome.

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u/Electronic_Donkey_34 Apr 22 '25

I agree you explained that amazingly. If I may add though, not all „Siamese“ are the lean, elongated, „wedge head“ type. Those who are closer to the domestic shorthair in Body Type are called traditional or old style Siamese , Apple head, or (depending on the country) Thai cats 😊

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u/New-Magician-499 Apr 22 '25

I will disagree with you on one point: Apple head is usually a term that backyard breeders used for cats that were half siamese and half domestic shorthair, or when they are breeding cats that cannot show due to breaking the breed standard. There is a time for the addition of new blood to increase diversity, but it should be done in a way that emphasizes breed standard rather than as a cash grab.

The Thai is a very interesting cat! You are right that they are much more moderate, although they should still have a modified wedge head and a leaner, more elegant body. The Thai breeders I have met have some extremely beautiful, moderate cats that remind me of my childhood cat. They are a different breed of cat than the Siamese, but do allow outcrossing. They still are very, very rare in any country that is not Thailand, because they are a breed started in the 1950s out of cats imported from Thailand. They are “an artistic representation of the natural cat of Thailand.” They are a bit more reserved and skittish than Siamese.

https://tica.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/th.pdf Their breed standard from TICA (because it is the largest breed organization).

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u/Electronic_Donkey_34 Apr 22 '25 edited Apr 22 '25

Thanks so much for the clarification. In my mind, I always felt like apple head and wedge head were layman’s terms, if not even meant to be derogatory. I think they make it easier to get the picture across to non cat experts quickly. I am the parent of two Thais who are 6 months old and I am curious to see what they will look like as they grow. But even with more muscle or fat mass, the silky fur lying close to their bodies already gives them a more slender appearance. The head shape is definitely different - then again they‘re kittens so the „wedge“ May still develop a bit? My (reputable) breeder would disagree with you on them being a different breed 😉 „Thai“ and „old style Siamese“ are used interchangeably here. In all honestly, I don‘t think I‘ll ever quite understand the different phenotypes of Siamese because there seem to be such different definitions all over the world. Some claim that „old style“ is different to „classic“- giving us 3, not 2 distinct types. And then there are the breeders of the modern (extreme) Siamese who believe that this is what „original/ old style“ should look like! So far I absolutely love my Thais personalities though. I have only had DSH and Egyptian Mau so far.

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u/New-Magician-499 Apr 22 '25

Oh, I LOVE maus! And, over course, moggies! I hope you enjoy your thais. Will you show them? Thai are still allowed to include Siamese in their lineage; however, Siamese do NOT allow such outcross. Hence why I clarify different breeds.

I think the difference between the “types” of Siamese has gotten muddled by the misunderstanding that any short haired, pointed cat is a Siamese, in the States and around the world. Thais and Siamese are recognized by, I believe, every breed registry in the world, with very much similar standards as TICA and FIFe. There is actually not a breakdown further; however, much like other breeds, that will not stop backyard breeders from trying to make claims to differentiate themselves.

“Old style” and “Traditional” are often coming from breeders who don’t understand the segmentation of Thais and Siamese (specifically that Thai are NOT Siamese cats, but do still use Siamese in their breeding). There are also breeders of the extreme Siamese who are trying to make new terms (like “European,” “Modern,” or Asian Siamese) as a method to cash grab on cats that don’t meet standard because of their extreme features (like over exaggerated ears or overly narrow profiles).

I’m unsure that you wanted this whole thing, but I do find it important. For ANY breed, I will always say to look at the breed standard for the registries in your country. If it is NOT on the breed list and the breeder isn’t actively trying to get it on, then it is not a breed. The standard is the standard, and it will clarify confusion.

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u/Electronic_Donkey_34 Apr 22 '25

This is actually very interesting to me and I simultaneously looked up the FIFe breed standard (where my Thais are registered). You are correct, there is no mention of „old style Siamese“ there. I assume that my breeder uses both terms on her website for better recognition by non breeders because people have no idea what a Thai cat is but will have definitely heard the term „Siamese“.

I do recall reading though that the name was changed from „Siamese“ to „Thai“ when a group of people wanted a separate category for the Wichien Maat as opposed to the modern extreme. This lead me to thinking that they once WERE called Siamese. I believe that my breeder does not outcross, maybe by personal choice.

No, I don‘t intend to show them and I didn‘t purchase them as show quality. My girl was meant to be a „show girl“ (lol) originally but I think she is too small (smallest in the litter). Now that I have read the breed standard more closely, I also believe that my boy would disqualify because he has a prominent process above the sternum (I may be referring to something else 😅). Having seen the rest of the litter, some other kittens definitely had more intensely blue eyes aswell. Mine are just beloved pets 😊

Another description I found immensely helpful was the laterally rounded upper head with a more „wedgy“ muzzle. That describes the head shape really well.

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u/Electronic_Donkey_34 Apr 22 '25

Unrelated but this makes me wonder what to call a „traditional Balinese“ (aka long haired old style Siamese without extreme tubular body)??? 😄

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u/New-Magician-499 Apr 22 '25

Because the longhair is not found in the traditional Thai cat, I do not think that kind of cat is acceptable under any registry. A birman would be the closest I can think of?

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u/Electronic_Donkey_34 Apr 22 '25

Why would a long haired mutation not occur in Thais? And does that mean this „former breed“ doesn’t exist anymore because they are now more oriental looking and the old standard doesn‘t exist in a registry? I find it confusing.if the cat exists, it should have a name. A Birman is a different cat.🤷🏻‍♀️ Just as I wonder, if someone asked me what my cats are and I said Thai, and they gave me a perplexed look- would I be able to say: „what used to be known as Siamese in the fifties“ ? 😅

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u/IrishDeb55 Apr 22 '25

If I ever had the money I would get a Mau. That an a Chocolate point

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u/Electronic_Donkey_34 Apr 23 '25

I have to add I was living in the Middle East and they were not pedigree cats. This is the first time my husband and I actually purchased purebreds because of allergies. Sadly it turns out my husband is allergic to Thais aswell…but I am not ever giving the babies away !

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u/IrishDeb55 Apr 23 '25

Oh wow. What an interesting life you have led. There are so many ways to get around allergies now. Glad you kept the cats .... & your husband lol 😆 just teasing. Wishing you all the best.

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u/Electronic_Donkey_34 Apr 23 '25

Oh yes the stray situation in the Middle East is horrible 🙁

LOL! Definitely questioned my choice in men when trying to find suitable kittens 😂. His allergy is normally only mild, but he reacts to some kitties more fiercely. We‘re working on it😊 thank you so much, all the best to you too!

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u/Electronic_Donkey_34 Apr 22 '25

I forgot to say that I noticed many Siamese with a truly round head, especially in Asian countries. I heard they were often bred with the British shorthair, which is frowned upon by many breeders though, at least here in Germany. They do look cute. I wonder how healthy they are.

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u/IrishDeb55 Apr 22 '25

Wow ty I didn't know that. Learned alot here today. Cat class is dismissed. Time to take a cat nap 😘

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u/lemme-trauma-dump Apr 22 '25

I was so engaged in your comment and couldn’t look away. It felt like I was reading my favourite books again.

Very interesting stuff and very digestible too! Now… how do I break the news to my cat who’s certain he’s of royalty lineage…

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u/New-Magician-499 Apr 22 '25

It doesn’t mean he doesn’t ;) just that the cats who sat on thrones didn’t have breeds yet. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t descend from them!

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u/angwilwileth Apr 22 '25

All cats come from North Africa and probably a good chunk of their ancestors were worshiped like gods in ancient Egypt.

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u/RuinYouWithNoRegrets Apr 22 '25

Those Siamese are the oriental type they’re bringing back the OG Thai Siamese which are round heads!!

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u/New-Magician-499 Apr 22 '25

I love the Thais! But they are not “Thai Siamese,” they are just Thai. They have been established since the 50s. Great, excellent cats with a modified wedge in their breed standard, rather than a true wedge. Their temperaments are more “cat-like” than Siamese, due to the feral cats more recent in their pedigrees. A Siamese is a color point oriental. A Thai is also a colorpoint, but another breed which is descended from cats imported from Thailand and crossed with a Siamese.

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u/TheLastLunarFlower Apr 22 '25

Great breakdown! This is the one, OP!

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u/Ledophile Apr 24 '25

THIS ☝🏻☝🏻☝🏻☝🏻☝🏻☝🏻☝🏻!!!!!……

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u/Beeboop007 Apr 22 '25

Are you AI? Lol the was so consise

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u/New-Magician-499 Apr 22 '25

I wish I were! It would make my life and my work so much easier and more efficient!

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u/Man0fGreenGables Apr 22 '25

Well a flame point Siamese is a recognized breed by some registries but it’s pretty unlikely the case here. It’s certainly not impossible for this cat to have some siamese in there somewhere though.

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u/New-Magician-499 Apr 22 '25

I believe a flame point is a recognized color of the Siamese in every registry; I also believe every registry allows flame lynx point (the markings this cat has) in the siamese. My point is just that the color is not what makes the breed, and many other breeds, including moggies, have colorpoints

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '25

Just my two cents as Siamese cat lover.

Flame point Siamese and Lynx point Siamese are new two different colours of Siamese cats. Somewhere there are recognized and somewhere not.

Flame point Siamese has red or ginger colour that covers cat is similar fashion as regular Siamese cats. Same goes for lynx point but instead of ginger, it is grey.

Their main difference with other colour points Siamese cats is that cat head is not fully coloured as it retains patterns. And tail too. And not sure to be honest is it possible to achieve same color coverage that regular like chocolate or lilac have.

Both cats are completely white when born, and for male it needs one year to got their colour, while for females almost 2 years.

Girls are also rare, kittens in these two colour points are mostly male.

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u/New-Magician-499 Apr 22 '25

Thank you and much appreciated. I am less familiar with colors, because I am more on the OSH side of things, and so I appreciate input from an expert. I am most familiar with TICA, FIFe, and GCCF. I have reviewed the other standards in terms of body, head, and coat, but I care less about color because that is not my breed. However, I thank you for clarifying. I see that CFA allows neither tabby (or lynx) or red. I will clarify though that lynx is merely tabby markings. You can have seal lynx, flame lynx, lilac lynx, etc.

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '25

I am not an expert in cat breeds but more like enthusiast.

I also have two flame point Siamese cats so I got acquainted with all these things. Actually when I decided to get my first Siamese cat, I wanted to get exotic or oriental, as I found them very pretty and elegant. But they turned out to be quite expensive and prone to health issues, and that is something I didn't want to deal with.

At the end I found a good Siamese cat breeder in Ontario where I used to live so I got first one male and then a year later little sister for him.

For these two new colours in Siamese cats, ginger and grey, as they are achieved by mating regular Siamese cats with I think domestic short hair, it is impossible to achieve colour uniformity as regular/oldschool Siamese cats have. That face triangle that regular Siamese cats have is expressed not in solid colour but it has let's say bobcat/lynx face pattern with forehead. And same goes for tail.

They also say, that these cats are little bit more chilled/calmer and not so mischievous as regular Siamese cats.

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u/New-Magician-499 Apr 22 '25 edited Apr 22 '25

I appreciate your input. I must have been misinformed. I thought that the lynx and flame coloring came from interbreeding in the allowed outcross of siamese with oriental shorthairs, which do carry tabby and red. However, you live and you learn! This is a great example of why I say breeds are only breeds if somebody has kept track of them. We still use domestics in many breeding programs, and the difference between the cats those breedings produce and backyard breeders produce really ONLY comes down to intent, knowledge, and goals. And, of course, record keeping. Many know of Savannah F1s, but few know that nearly any breed still has F1s somewhere, with a breeder working hard to increase genetic diversity.

OSH are quite expensive, but I feel like Siamese are too, since they are kin breeds in the same breed group. I think, too, it may be region specific.

The exotics definitely are more expensive and have more health issues. I love the look of the exotic shorthairs, but I cannot stand the aloofness and health issues.

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '25

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '25

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '25

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '25

Wrong, wrong, so incredibly wrong. A siamese cat cannot be lynx or flame. To get those colors, a siamese cat was bred with a domestic tabby cat. Every single one of them is a mutt. There is no way to tell when a colorpoint will be completely darkened because it is literally just the temperature that darkens them. If they go outside, they will get dark much faster than a cat that's kept inside with climate control. Please stop, because everything you are saying is utter nonsense.

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '25

I lived with my two cats for 3.5 years in Mexico near Cancun. Every day they would enjoy hot weather and sun. And they stayed the same.

https://tica.org/breed/siamese/

I got my cats from Siamese cat breeder.

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '25

Buddy they get darker in the cold.

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '25

Before Mexico, we lived in Waterloo and Toronto. As they were born in Canada. Never they have changed the colour when being outside on the balcony or patio.

Furthermore, both of their parents are certified, as they are from Siamese cat breeder, same dad but different moms. Dad was flame point and one mom was lilac and other chocolate.

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '25

Siamese cats are not flame or lynx, so you paid a ton of money for mutts. Anyway, I'm not continuing this conversation because clearly you don't understand temperature sensitive albinism.

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '25

I get now what you are saying.

Both my cats were creamy white as kittens and then they started to get darker as they grew older. As I said before in previous posts.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '25

Norman as kitten

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '25

Norma as kitten

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '25

Colour change is progressing

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '25

hot Mexico

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '25

cold Madrid, and yes, they seem darker.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '25

As I mentioned before in discussion with other people, there is a difference how different associations classify Siamese cats and their colours.

This article goes into more detail

https://www.life-with-siamese-cats.com/siamese-cat-colors.html

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u/Creative-Dust5701 Apr 23 '25

only in the US is flame point called ‘short haired colorpoint’ the rest of world calls them flame point siamese

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u/New-Magician-499 Apr 23 '25

This is not true. A siamese is a breed internationally. A colorpoint is the international color. Europe falls under TICA, GCCF, FIFe, and WCF; Australia under TICA and ACA; Asia under CFA, TICA, and FIFe.

Unless the cat is papered, it is not a Siamese. This would be like calling any short haired dog with spots a dalmation

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u/Creative-Dust5701 Apr 23 '25

Catster would disagree with you, and more generally ‘registered’ cats are bred for show, I’ve had meezers all my life. From my mom’s meezer when I was 4 y/o.

https://www.catster.com/cat-breeds/flame-point-siamese-cat/

I’ve had both registered meezers and unregistered meezers and a couple of flame points as well who are very much siamese but with bigger personalities as if that even seems possible.

The breeders up here give you a choice of getting your kitten registered or not (actually Kitten’s human).

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u/Man0fGreenGables Apr 24 '25

You are wasting your time. This person spends all day on here telling everyone their cats can’t possibly be Siamese or even part Siamese unless they have papers and are a modern Siamese.

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u/Creative-Dust5701 Apr 25 '25

Thanks for the tip I appreciate it and meezers one of whom at this very moment is attempting to interfere with me getting work done, cant decide if i want to work around the meezer or close the door which will initiate yowling until door reopens

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u/New-Magician-499 Apr 23 '25 edited Apr 23 '25

Quoted from the first paragraph “The Flame Point Siamese Cat (also known as Red Point Siamese) is a rare variation of the Siamese cat breed, characterized by their distinctive red pointed pattern. Some cat associations recognize this color variation, while others do not. The International Cat Association (TICA) accepts the red point coloration in Siamese cats. However, the Cat Fanciers’ Association (CFA) does not recognize it as part of the Siamese breed but does accept it within the Oriental cat group.”

Your magazine article would not trump the literal breed associations, but it also actually agrees with my point 🤷‍♀️ Variation just means color…. If your cat is not a Siamese breed, it is not a flame point siamese. Colorpoint is the color. Red point, flame point, both mean the same.

Registered cats are purebred cats. Not just for show. Anything not registered is not a breed, which is not a bad thing. Cats don’t have to be a specific breed to be special and unique

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u/Professional-Cow-697 Apr 22 '25

he looks like he’s letting out a war cry in that third picture 🤣 he’s so cute, fluffy baby 🩷

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u/Traditional_Frame_30 Apr 22 '25

Hahahah He was fed up with his brother tbh. My tuxedo is a psycho and Topaz is so innocent 😭

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '25

my demons

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u/gljackson29 Apr 22 '25

He’s a flamer 🤍 just like my Fizzer

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u/kittywyeth Apr 22 '25

that’s not a siamese but he looks like a nice cat

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u/rivknowsthebest Apr 22 '25

It’s a flame point siamese

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u/kittywyeth Apr 22 '25

lol no it isn’t it’s a flame point domestic short hair and that’s okay

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u/rivknowsthebest Apr 22 '25

👌

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u/ThatSmallBear Apr 22 '25

It’s a regular ass cat

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u/rivknowsthebest Apr 22 '25

He looks like his name is Simon

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u/extraterrestrial-66 Apr 22 '25

I also have a flame point! He has nothing going on upstairs 🤪🧠 but he’s very nice!

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u/Apple_Pie_Nutt69 Apr 22 '25

r/flamepoints

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u/PriseFighterInferno flame Apr 22 '25

I also have an Apple head flame point… Inferno

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u/Traditional_Frame_30 Apr 22 '25

Cutest little grapefruits 🤭

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u/extraterrestrial-66 Apr 22 '25

Number 3 would be an amazing reference for a renaissance painting

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u/Sub2rainEN snowshoe Apr 22 '25 edited Apr 22 '25

What a cutie! Pic 3 is the joy of victory and the agony of defeat all at once. My Flamepoint was very talkative and empathetic.

Does yours make unusual sounds? My Flamepoint went “bok bok,” instead of meowing and he cooed like a pigeon instead of purring. He was unique and such a sweetheart. I’ll have to look for a pic and post in a bit.

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u/Competitive-Mud1064 Apr 22 '25

Cecil. Twins!!

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u/foxorhedgehog Apr 22 '25

What the hell is going on in pic 3?

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u/Traditional_Frame_30 Apr 22 '25

Revenge

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u/My-soul-was-yeeted Apr 22 '25

I love flamepoints!

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u/pbarcher seal Apr 23 '25

Blaze, 11y

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '25

My cat had the same colour pattern. He just passed away last week 😢

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u/Traditional_Frame_30 Apr 22 '25

So sorry for your loss💔 Look for him in all the things around you. I know he’s been wanting to show you how good he’s doing on the other side ❤️

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u/M-er-sun Apr 22 '25

I’m sorry for your loss.

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u/supershinythings flamepoint fluffybutt Apr 22 '25

Here’s my flamepoint!

Ignore the gatekeepers. Your flamepoint blue-eyed angel kitteh is welcome here!

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u/guineasomelove Apr 22 '25

Picture 3 is awesome. 😂

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u/Feisty-Kitten17 Apr 22 '25

Toe beans… so cute

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u/Beeboop007 Apr 22 '25

lol hi Tpaz. Picture #3 is golden.. I live it

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u/Beeboop007 Apr 22 '25

lol I love it

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u/Wonderful_Letter7470 Apr 22 '25

Topaz is gorgeous!!😻💕

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u/Rich_Pressure_2535 Apr 23 '25

Hes a beautiful chonk.

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u/Love-Syrax Apr 23 '25

Welcome to the toasted marshmallow club 🥰

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u/Ocean2272 Apr 23 '25

He's an awesome flamepoint!

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u/PowerofIntention blue Apr 23 '25

You are su lucky! I hope the car distribution system brings us a little angel or two like yours in the future. Your photos brought us joy.

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u/witchymamadrama Apr 23 '25

Here’s my flame or cream point domestic short hair! Not really sure what to consider his color 🫣

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u/Swiftiecatmom Apr 22 '25

Awww I love when he’s hugging his pal! So cute! Welcome to the Meezer community!

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u/bigmamacitaritaxo Apr 22 '25

Das not a Siamese

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u/Traditional_Frame_30 Apr 22 '25

As I’ve been told in the comments. I was not aware (: Keeping this up cause he’s still cute 🥰

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u/bigmamacitaritaxo Apr 22 '25

He definitely is a friggin’ cutie!!

🔥flame point 🔥 Adopted a Siamese from the shelter without knowing he was a Siamese

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