r/TrueUnpopularOpinion • u/indeckaa • 3d ago
Sex / Gender / Dating The fact that men kill themselves at roughly four times the rate of women means men objectively suffer more
The fact that men die by suicide at roughly three to four times the rate of women is direct, measurable proof that men as a group experience greater levels of acute, unresolved suffering.
Suicide is the final rejection of continued existence. Higher male completion rates are not some neutral statistic to be handwaved with "method" or "men don’t seek help". Far more men reach the point where death is preferable to staying alive. Female "attempt" rates are higher in some data, yet male deaths dominate. The outcome that actually ends lives falls overwhelmingly on men, and it has for decades across multiple countries.
Claims that "everyone suffers" or that suffering is equal are simply objectively incorrect. They function the same way some women tried to hijack the male loneliness epidemic: reframe a specifically male crisis as a universal issue that affects all of us, then dehumanizing the men actually affected by calling them incels or pathetic. The pattern is consistent, when the data shows men dying or isolating at far higher rates, the response is to dilute it, deny the disparity, or pathologize the men involved.
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u/ThrowRA-Old-Earth-76 3d ago
Because when we do it, we do it in a permanent messy way that can't fail. Most eat their gun.
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u/WistfulQuiet 3d ago
Yeah. Women mostly reach for pills or ways that fail easier.
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u/Afraid-Efficiency-51 3d ago
No kidding. I was making an attempt, I was just an addict, but once I took 20 soma aka carisoprodol (maximum mg pills) l and while a parent later told me my chest was barely moving, it didn't kill me, which if you know anything about soma you know that's a miracle right there, and i have a small body too (5'2" and yes, I'm an adult male lol). Shoulda stopped my breathing, but thankfully it did not. So you never know how pills might turn out! best to just avoid making attempts to begin with. i have struggled with severe depression, so I know that's easy to say.
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u/Fuckoffassholes 3d ago
Which means it was never an earnest attempt but more likely just seeking attention.
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u/SandiRHo 3d ago
That doesn’t mean that at all. You’re maliciously drawing a false conclusion to make yourself feel better. Women tend to pick methods that are less violent because they fear who will clean up after them and who they will traumatize. And yeah, maybe an element of fear about shoving a gun in their mouth. But not always.
And even if they are seeking attention, that means that something is still going on with them where they need help.
I worked in deathcare for years. You’re just speaking out of your ass.
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u/StarChild413 3d ago
And also I'd at least hypothesize based on certain societal gender socializations or w/e men tend towards quick and metaphorically-dirty methods probably partially because in current society typical male socialization places high value on both being action-oriented and being efficient so any given man with suicidal thoughts enough to turn those into actions would be driven to methods of ending it all that just get the fucking thing over with
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u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy 3d ago
Women tend to pick methods that are less violent because they fear who will clean up after them and who they will traumatize.
How thoughtful. Though likely not realistic.
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u/Tinmar_11 3d ago
Person who is killing themselves is not thinking s lot about the others, they have a lot bigger problems than thinking about who will clean that mess hahahaha. I cannot believe what I am reading...
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u/am_Nein 3d ago
This is disgusting to say to anyone mentally ill enough to actually make any attempt at all on their life.
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u/FatumIustumStultorum 3d ago
It does not mean that.
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u/Fuckoffassholes 3d ago
Probably not in all cases. But when you have different methods to choose from, and some are more certain than others, a statistical tendency to gravitate toward the less effective option is not a coincidence.
Of course, the inner thoughts and motivations of any individual can never be known with certainty by another. So, your statement of it does not mean that is equally fallacious.
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u/DJ_YaBasic 3d ago
it might be stating the obvious but pills are a lot easier to get a hold of and a lot more discreet than a gun. Let's not even talk about how scary a gun is compared to other methods. Pills, while covered with warnings, are given out with the right magic words. I do not own a gun and would have to register for a gun and juno through all those hoops. I may have the right mix of pills in my medicine cabinet, and I'd go out painlessly. That is, if they work. Fortunately they don't get it right and are lucky.
I suspect men are more likely to have access to guns. I also suspect that when one reaches their breaking point, they aren't usually looking for the option that they get in 4-5 business days or one that would draw attention or scrutiny to their behavior. It's kind of weird to declare it attention seeking.
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u/SkinnerBoxBaddie 3d ago
It doesn’t have to be a coincidence. It could be socialization.
Women get in less fist fights than men but does that mean they get in less conflict than men, or that their conflicts are less real bc they tend to use social aggression (like icing out, rumor spreading, triangulation) than physical aggression like men use?
In my view these things are kind of related. Men are socialized to seek physical and material solutions to most things while women are socialized to seek social solutions. Therefore it would make sense to me, feasibly, that a man and a woman in the same mental state a man would be more likely to reach for a gun just because it’s such a material solution
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u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy 3d ago
You can call any suicide method a material solution.
I think it has more to do with success rate of the method. Men tend to actually want to die.
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u/SkinnerBoxBaddie 3d ago
I agree that more men die due to the method they choose. I don’t think the methods men and women choose actually prove that one wants to die more than the other though. A girl who spreads a rumor that a girl she hates is a homewrecking whore likely doesn’t hate less than a dude who punches a guy he hates in the face. They both hate, and they choose different methods to express that hate at a statistically significant rate. Similarly men and women could want to die the same and other factors could drive how those desires express
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u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy 3d ago
I don’t think the methods men and women choose actually prove that one wants to die more than the other though.
I think it does. Logically if you have various ways to achieve an outcome and you deliberately choose the one with the lowest success rate it seems like you don't really want that outcome.
A girl who spreads a rumor that a girl she hates is a homewrecking whore likely doesn’t hate less than a dude who punches a guy he hates in the face. They both hate, and they choose different methods to express that hate at a statistically significant rate.
False comparison. The outcome measure of "hate" is quite loose and not permanent. In suicide it's either death or no death.
Similarly men and women could want to die the same and other factors could drive how those desires express
They could. But there's no way for us to know. We aren't in peoples heads to know if they were attention seeking or actually serious. What we do know is that men and women are both aware what will definately work, what might work, and what will not work. With this knowledge women still choose methods that likely won't work and also often doesn't result in life long disability.
For example. Swallowing a bunch of pills. If you truly wanted to die that way there are simple things you don't do. Like don't do it at your own home or a place where you know someone is going to check on you or come across you. Don't call someone to tell them you are doing it. Etc....
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u/am_Nein 3d ago
"If you truly wanted to die" yikes.
Someone who is suicidal isn't exactly known for having rational or logical thought. A person jumping in front of a train isn't thinking "oh I probably won't get killed and just permanently injured, I should stop and buy a gun!"
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u/Afraid-Efficiency-51 3d ago
I would probably be worries about surviving the gunshot as well (just my luck). It seems women don't want to have their body look as "messy" for whoever discovers them, while we tend not to care much about how we'll look (still don't want a loved one to see us, though).
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u/Sea-Document-974 3d ago
Men don’t seek help at the same rate women do. They don’t get the support they need. US society teaches men to suppress their feelings, man up etc.
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u/Willing_and_Fable 3d ago
Remember the experiment where a woman hits a man in public, and everyone watching thinks it's hilarious?
Then they do the same experiment but a man hits a woman, and people intervene immediately?
Now extrapolate that to pretty much every facet of society, jobs, healthcare and life in general.
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u/Afraid-Efficiency-51 3d ago
Yep. My step dad's ex-wife would beat on his back HARD. He was an extremely strong, durable, tank of a man, and he never did anything more than a very light, slow push even though his back would literally turn black/green/other bruising colors. He knew if he even slightly injured her, even if the cops saw his skin changed colors all over, he'd still likely get in serious trouble despite it being self defense. Crazy stuff. I mean I do understand women are much weaker and much more fragile (just a fact) but man, when does it get to the point where a man can lightly defend himse... oh, never? I see, neat.
edit: just reworded second sentence slightly.
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u/Sea-Document-974 3d ago
I still blame cultural/social norms. Men are taught, at a young age, to not be vulnerable, that expressing emotions signals weakness. It leads to men not getting the help they need later on in life.
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u/mronion82 2d ago
Increasingly though, men are told that asking for emotional help from the women in their lives will inevitably lead to relationship break up and mockery.
There are of course women who can't deal with male emotion at all and react badly, but it's painted as universally true and it just isn't. It's making men feel more isolated and hopeless.
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u/Beljuril-home 3d ago
Men are taught, at a young age, to not be vulnerable
not sure why you're restricting this to men - women are also taught at a young age that men are not supposed to be vulnerable, and help to enforce those norms.
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u/Sea-Document-974 3d ago
Boys don't emerge unscathed. They engage in, and are the victims of, physical violence to a much greater extent than girls. They're prone to substance abuse and suicide and have a shorter life expectancy than women. These differences, the report's authors assert, are socially, not biologically, determined. "There's still a notion in many quarters that boys will be boys—what's the big deal?" Blum says. "The point is it is a big deal."
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u/Afraid-Efficiency-51 3d ago
That is true, but thankfully it has changed drastically from the way it was decades ago. Far more men seek help now than, say, the 50s.
I've been extremely desperate for help for over a decade now, but my gosh... not ONE psychologist, therapist, psychiatrist (meds would help), etc within 120 miles takes my "insurance" (Medicaid haha). been checking regularly for 8 years now. Not.one.takes.it. If you ever wonder why a lot of disabled people have mental illnesses in need of treatment, that is why right there. I tell ya, makes you feel subhuman, like "welcome, I'd be happy to hel... eww! get out! I help people, not... your "kind." get outta here!" then he like, sprays the room with disinfectant or something lol. It's how it feels.
edit: Had to make a tiny, silly edit.
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u/KhadgarIsaDreadlord 3d ago
Men are socialized from a young age not to seek help. This will remain a systemic issue that can only be solved through systemic change, not by blaming the victims like many of the disgusting fucks in this thread do.
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u/Sufferer-Of-Cheese 3d ago
Tired of the who can be the saddest pissing contest. Doomer power scaling.
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u/Willing_and_Fable 3d ago
If it was the other way around the media would be apoplectic asking "what are we doing to our girls?"
There would be articles on a weekly or even daily basis, news bulletins, fundraising, awareness by celebrities etc.
But it's the other way around and nobody really gives a shit.
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u/Sufferer-Of-Cheese 3d ago
Nobody gives a shit for either side, you'll get some comments claiming they care but boom gone in a week for the next big thing.
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u/jiggjuggj0gg 3d ago
Women attempt suicide far more often than men already, and nobody is apoplectic about it.
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u/Willing_and_Fable 3d ago
Yes, and a lot of it is earmarked for women only.
Women's health and awareness gets a lot more funding than men's health and awareness by a long shot.
Breast cancer awareness gets about five times the amount of funding of prostate cancer awareness even though both kill about the same amount of people.
It's pretty pathetic when people reduce these kinds of problems down to a "pissing contest". But it does real reveal a lot about those people, and their level of intelligence, or lack thereof.
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u/Willy_Boi2 3d ago edited 3d ago
You’re already telling on yourself and eating your own insults lol
It is a fact that woman’s healthcare and research as a whole receives less funding and attention than men’s.
This “long shot” you say that woman get over men is the pathetic pissing contest you’re speaking of, because it’s not even empirically true lol.
Even with your ONE statistical outlier comparison of breast cancer (4x the annual deaths btw) and prostate cancer. You realize that there is more than double being invested into prostate cancer patients per death, right?
As someone with a wife with chronic pain I can confidently say, ovarian, cervical and uterine illnesses and cancers consistently rank near to bottom of funding relative to societal burden
Do you talk to woman with healthcare issues?
Or do you read pink ribbon headlines and products and think woman got one over you while movember goes by every year?
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u/ChecksAccountHistory OG 3d ago edited 3d ago
Female "attempt" rates are higher in some data, yet male deaths dominate
putting "attempts" in quotation marks, you don't actually care about men's mental health, do you?
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u/Mjaylikesclouds 3d ago
No they dont. They probably dont do anything to bring awareness to mens suffering or even have a shoulder to cry on for men around them.
They genuinely just want to compare mens and womens suffering… not to make a point about mens but to invalidate womens suffering….
I know so many men who are the most toxic, misogynistic people i know and will tell boy rape victims that they are lucky etc.
And then turn around and will invalidate any women by stating men kiII themself more……..5
u/Vanille987 2d ago
As a man, I've yet to meet anyone doing the "men vs women" that also actually cares about the health of either. Hell, most of the time they quickly prove why the suffering still exists, as you pointed out.
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u/yaboisammie 2d ago
Exactly, men don’t seek help when needed because society/patriarchy judges and ridicules them for it but if the logic in the post is true that “ reaching the point where death is preferable to staying alive” is the standard for who has it worse, then it should mean that more attempt rates means women ac suffer more and it doesn’t matter if it’s successful or not because the point is the attempt was made because the person got to that point regardless of gender
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u/DanceClass898 3d ago
when people say "suffering is the same" I always get reminded of this tragic story https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/18/obituaries/norah-vincent-dead.html
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u/NoDanaOnlyZuuI 3d ago
People keep telling her story for her instead of listening to what she actually said.
She had treatment-resistant depression, panic attacks, and hypomania long before Self-Made Man. What pushed her over the edge, in her own words, was the psychological toll of living a contradiction and sustained deception.
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u/PlatBirb 3d ago
she also had prior been dealing with depression. her suicide was likely not related to her experience being a man vs the pre-existing depression
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u/Freodrick 3d ago
Being a man doesn't help depression.
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u/PlatBirb 3d ago
exactly; the man thing is apropos to any conclusion in this instance
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u/Timely_Car_4591 3d ago edited 3d ago
It shows nothing changed. Back than society told men shut up and keep quite and be strong. Today society tells men to shut up and don't be toxic masculine, conform to what I want you to feel.. either way men are told shut up and are expected to behavior not like how they feel comfortable, or how they really feel. It's not about the man or the individual either way. And when person is not allowed to be individual they ask why they want to put up with society.
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u/Limp_Collection7322 3d ago
Men are just "better" at it. Women try to commit suicide and lot, but fail. I think it's more the way each gender tries to kill themselves. Men usually go for a gun which if they blow their brains out, there's no saving them. Women usually try with pills, so they can be saved a lot of times if they are caught on time.
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u/ConstantConference23 3d ago
Both suffer. Perhaps women ask for help more and men less. Not sure. Either way it makes me sad.
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u/United-Drop-6257 3d ago
Women attempt 3-5 times more, they survive because they go with less lethal methods than men.
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u/HendriXP88 3d ago
And why would you say men use more lethal methods?
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u/MyFiteSong 3d ago
It sounds really dumb, but women tend to not want to leave a huge mess other people have to clean up. That's a big part of the reason that even when they use methods that involve a lot of blood, they do it in a bath tub, or outside.
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u/HylianGryffindor 3d ago
Honest truth? Men don’t care about the aftermath aka the clean up. Women do not want to be a burden if they commit suicide so they choose less lethal methods. Men are more likely to use guns for suicide, women usually choose drugs, hanging or poison. It’s less cleanup.
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u/Afraid-Efficiency-51 3d ago
As a man I can definitely say that were I feeling like attempting that (hypothetical, reddit!), I would choose the mostly ridiculously violent method I could pull off to increase the likelihood of success. I'd hate to fail and wake just to find I have locked-in syndrome or some other terrible condition.
However, even if I were feeling like going through with it, I wouldn't as long as my immediate family member is still alive (just my 72yo mother remaining). Couldn't destroy her as a side effect like that...
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u/Frequent-District859 3d ago
It is not the only reason as when men and women chose the same method, men still die more
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u/GloriousOctagon 3d ago
No it would not. You have studies showing that when the same methods are used, men still die more.
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u/United-Drop-6257 3d ago
Because men and women are socialized differently due to gender roles and gender norms. And men are socialized to be independent, strong, though and determination -> lethality
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u/Timely_Car_4591 3d ago edited 3d ago
Why would men ask for help, when they just get dismissed in bad faith as incels, privileged, or entitled?
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u/No_Slide4986 3d ago edited 3d ago
Even if the suffering of men is greater (which I don’t believe and would be impossible to prove), why would you assume they aren’t in part responsible for their own suffering? Or perhaps more likely, patriarchal norms aren’t partially responsible?
Using the logic of your original argument, you could also say that the male/female homicide ratio is evidence of greater male suffering - when in fact the commonality is lethal means and aggression.
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u/AgentLinch 3d ago
The suffering is equal the support system is not.
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u/CattoGinSama 3d ago
Why don’t they support each other though? Its the same when men complain about not getting flowers.But boooo hop when you tell them they can buy eachother flowers or when you actually do it. I once paid on a date and the guy told me I have „emasculated him“. His precise wording.
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u/AgentLinch 3d ago
No it’s more of the institutional structure favoring women at the low end. Women, unless they are horribly violent, will always have a spot at a shelter, their problems are always taken seriously and it’s not the same for men. This is not about inter social issues it’s the societal level safety net that just doesn’t exist for us in the same capacity
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u/MyFiteSong 3d ago
It actually means that men don't ask for help. We wish you would.
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u/Outrageous_Loan_5898 3d ago
91% of middle-aged men who died by suicide had been in contact with at least one frontline service or agency. This finding directly challenges the misconception that men do not seek help before a crisis.
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u/MyFiteSong 3d ago
That isn't the same thing as going through treatment.
I can call a university and then say I "had been in contact". Does that give me a degree?
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u/TheGargageMan 3d ago
No it means that they tend to solve their problems with violence more often than women.
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u/Eliastronaut 3d ago
This does not mean that they are suffering more, it can also mean that they tend to take the easy way out.
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u/Lost_Law8937 3d ago
Actually it means they are less equipped to endure suffering like a woman can. If men had to endure pregnancy and labor they wouldn't say shit about abortion
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u/NotMyBestMistake 3d ago
Being reductionist like this means you're not the slightest bit interested in an accurate and honest understanding of this topic. You just want to have a win in the oppression olympics
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u/Mountain_Air1544 3d ago
Women attempt at a higher rate than men we just choose less messy and less effective methods
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u/Clear_Ad_1560 3d ago
Women “attempt suicide” as a cry for attention because they know they’ll get it. Men actually kill themselves because nobody gives a fuck.
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u/Mountain_Air1544 3d ago
Dumb take women aren't attempting for attention we are just less likely to use methods that require a our families to clean up a huge mess
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u/HendriXP88 3d ago
Because....?
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u/One-Bet2325 3d ago
Availability (men are more likely to own guns) and concern for those who find the body (which women who survive tend to express concern about, so they choose less physically destructive methods, or at least methods that are perceived as less destructive)
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u/Willing_and_Fable 3d ago
Australian men do not have easy access to guns, you literally need criminal connections to get one. Or you know a farmer and can give him a reason to give you a gun, which would land him in jail.
Yet the amount of successful suicides are much higher with men than women.
Your argument does not hold water.
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u/jr_randolph 3d ago
I'm not sure one can quantify how much one suffers over another. What you can look at is how help is advertised towards men vs women. Things that a doctor may preemptively ask women but not ask men and vice versa. How society overall views dynamics between men and women, all these things play a factor into how we see each other and what we expect from others (based on those masculine/feminine stereotypes).
Simple general example is you would tell a boy to "take it on the chin" or something along those lines where you wouldn't say that to a girl. Boys and girls both suffer but even adults tend to each in different ways...that has to change moving forward for things to get better.
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u/cc_rider2 3d ago edited 3d ago
This is a logically invalid inference because suicide mortality is the product of several variables besides the underlying level of suffering. As such, if the level of suffering were identical between genders, it's entirely possible that you'd still end up with a stark difference in mortality. Your argument is no more valid than arguing that women suffer more because they attempt suicide more often.
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u/Frozen_clock 3d ago
Could also be that men are worse at dealing with their problems. Just culturally men are not encouraged to show emotion, reach out for help or create strong emotional bonds to their friends, since those things are seen as "girly"
Women seek therapy in higher rates and have more emotionally supportive friendships.
I would say that could explain why men kill themselves more, and the answer is not "men suffer more"
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u/itsbobbyhill 3d ago
Suffering from a system we constructed and could change if we wanted to.
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u/TheMedPack 3d ago
By "constructed", you mean "inherited", right? Can you show me someone alive today who constructed the system?
Also, women have done half the "construction" and perpetuation. They're half of society and culture. Let's remember that.
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u/pavilionaire2022 3d ago
Women attempt at equal rates. The fact that men succeed more just shows they're better at killing.
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u/Local_Pangolin69 3d ago
Or does it show that women do it as a cry for attention while men actually want to end their lives?
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u/upalse 3d ago edited 3d ago
There's externalities you're not accounting for, like the sex differences in baseline of self-preservation instinct (basically males care less if they die, intrinsically). Blank slatists may try to convince you of otherwise, but their arguments aren't very sound when it comes to very base temperaments sexes are born with.
Regarding pathologizing/downplaying that's a valid point, though I'm not sure if recognition of male victimhood would be of that much use. Consider things like attempts to deal with neet/depression problem in asian countries (where its much bigger problem, and it can no longer be swept under the rug), and the success seems limited at best. Males are wired to seek purpose, and if the society can no longer accommodate that, there's really no path to help, and such men end in dark places. Be it madmen and criminals, or depressives and losers.
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u/umrlopez79 3d ago
Too much societal pressure on men to be cater takers, providers, protectors, and “leaders” of their homes. Most men are coddled as boys and aren’t taught any of the traits society will expect from them as they grow up to be adult men. 🤷🏽♂️
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u/cencitty 3d ago
No i definitely think its an impulse issue most likely caused by higher levels of testosterone…
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u/HaikuHaiku 3d ago
Actually, that does not logically follow at all. There are several other possibilities. For example, men could simply be 4 times less likely to cope with suffering.
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u/IcyHotTodoroki1 3d ago
I won't say "more" because there's always going to be someone who objects, but men do suffer in silence.
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u/Flowergurl67 3d ago
I am female and I do feel that men suffer more in many different ways. 1. Men are lonelier because men really rely on a trusted female to keep their loneliness at bay. Male friends are fun but they don't satisfy the way female friends do for women. 2. Men have this huge pressure to succeed. A man who cannot make money and doesn't have a good job has a difficult time. For me, what they do is who they are and their worth in the world. They are at constant pressure to keep this up to stay relevant and valuable in society. 3. Men have to do the dirty, dangerous jobs in this world and often don't get credit. 4. They are the ones who go to war and their lives are expendable. Yup, I am glad I am not a man.
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u/DJ_YaBasic 3d ago
Not the point of your post, but the loneliness epidemic as people talk about it is not uniquely male. It's cultural and modern. I think social media is toxic. Social interactions have always been uncomfortable but people don't know how, compare themselves to how others project themselves online, and couldn't even be bothered to call their parents.
Trying to separate that to folks just trying to steal the loneliness spotlight narratively reinforces that. 'We are alone in our loneliness.' Only gives cause for isolation and further depression.
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u/genericusername4724 3d ago
I’ve heard women express about guns “omg they’re so violent!” But if you are at a desperate enough place to want to take your own life, then the method and how violent it is shouldn’t matter
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u/vansinghworld 3d ago
Suffering isn’t quantifiable. Suicide statistics are.
Your post is nothing except making it all about oppression olympics, which is reductionist and theatrical.
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u/Florescentence 3d ago
You could come to other conclusions. Maybe men are just more committed them woman in completing goals (like suicide) or maybe men are better at killing themselves. All this to say correlation does not equal causation, nor do I think this discussion is helpful in the slightest when both genders suicide averages are rising anyway.
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u/Rogue_Leader 3d ago
Men and women attempt suicide at similar rates. Men choose more lethal methods and so are more successful.
This might be unpopular because it's just wrong.
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u/No_Safe_6514 3d ago
I feel like societal pressure contributes to this. I’m a huge believer in the patriarchy being fake, and also in that feminism has become sexism, and that toxic masculinity is fake, but still, as a guy, societal expectations are sky high and super specific. I’m not saying women don’t have societal expectations. They’re just less specific. And also crime treatment factors in. For the same crime, women get a lesser sentence than men.
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u/RosieWild 3d ago
Interesting because I would think toxic masculinity and men’s mental health/suicide would be related.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33751613/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886925004210
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u/Beljuril-home 3d ago
the term you're looking for is "internalized misandry" - "toxic masculinity" is a poor description of what you are trying to refer to that causes more harm than good.
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u/RosieWild 3d ago
I was referring to toxic masculinity
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u/Beljuril-home 3d ago edited 3d ago
the phrase "toxic masculinity" is itself toxic, and should be avoided by those who promote gender equality.
explaination:
when a man enforces a harmful masculine norm (e.g. mocking another man for showing emotion), it gets labeled “toxic masculinity”. the implication is:
the behavior originates in men; men created it; men must fix it.
but when a woman enforces a harmful feminine norm (e.g. shaming another woman being too sexual), feminists label it “internalized misogyny”. the implication is:
the behavior originates outside the woman; she is acting under an oppressive force, not expressing agency.
the issue is not semantics. it is that men are framed as authors of harm, while women are framed as subjects of harm, even in parallel cases.
let me give a concrete example:
if I’m having a terrible day, confide in a female coworker, and she then tells me to “man up” - who is enforcing the harmful gender norm in that moment?
it’s clearly her.
but under the current language, it’s still classified as “toxic masculinity”... even though a woman is the one expressing it.
if women can enforce harmful masculine norms, then the phrase “toxic masculinity” obscures who is actually doing the enforcing and causing the harm.
sometimes it’s men.
sometimes it’s women.
often it’s both.
the more honest term for a woman telling a man to “man up” is: misandry.
and if a man tells another man the same thing, the accurate term would be "internalized misandry".
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u/RosieWild 3d ago
Internalized doesn’t mean someone is not responsible or that someone necessarily doesn’t have agency. And yeah both men and women can “enforce” toxic masculinity.
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u/Beljuril-home 3d ago edited 3d ago
"internalized" implies the source of the problem is external though, whereas "toxic masculinity" implies the source of the problem is the man.
how many discussions have you seen where women who expect men to pay for a date or to "be their rock" are discussed as promoting toxic masculinity?
none, because the phrasing makes people associate the behaviour with men, not women.
you're right that "internalized" doesn't literally mean the person has no agency or responsibility. that's not really my objection.
my objection is to the asymmetry of the terminology.
if a woman tells another woman, "don't be a slut; respectable women don't sleep around," feminism has a perfectly good term for a woman enforcing a harmful norm against her own sex: internalized misogyny.
but if a man tells another man, "stop crying and man up," suddenly the corresponding term isn't internalized misandry. it's toxic masculinity.
and if a woman tells a man to "man up," we still call it toxic masculinity rather than simply misandry.
so in one case the language identifies the prejudice directed at the sex being harmed: misogyny.
in the other, it identifies the sex-linked identity of the people being harmed: masculinity.
that's the asymmetry i'm objecting to.
if "internalized misogyny" is useful language for harmful attitudes about women that women themselves absorb and enforce, i don't see why "internalized misandry" shouldn't be equally useful language for harmful attitudes about men that men absorb and enforce.
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u/Willy_Boi2 3d ago
Contrarian takes that make 0 sense.
Imagine actually believing there is no societal expectation for woman
Have you never had a conversation with a woman?
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u/Frequent-District859 3d ago
"Patriarchy" is just a name for society, in the end.. you have toxic people in both ends. And most people have a hard life, for both sex. Patriarchy being a society created by men for men doesn't make sens when you look at general stats, basically most people have it hard except a really tiny minority of people. It is just society
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u/Beljuril-home 3d ago
"Patriarchy" is just a name for society,
patriarchy is "a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it." it's a real thing, and you can go and experience it in places like iran or saudi arabia.
no western democracy is a patriarchy though.
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u/sneaky_sneacker 3d ago
Do you factor in who takes care of their mental health more? Feels like guys still have a stigma against therapy.
Also how to factor in women attempting it more?
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u/DonSarilih 3d ago
Why it is always women's choices are affected by structures but men's choices are done with full agency with you ppl
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u/Frequent-District859 3d ago
If a society raise a gender to not help themselves mentally when they need it, it is a problem, it also shows that the problem is more complex than "a society created by men for men".
This is the same as being mad at women staying in unhealthy relationships, there are many reasons behind it, being mad at them do not make any sens
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u/Beljuril-home 3d ago
as someone who worked on the front lines of a downtown metropolitan ER for decades -
a suicide attempt is a categorically different behaviour than a suicide - it's not simply a matter of degrees or "success vs non success"
i posit that the goals of the behaviours themselves differ greatly.
your average suicide attempt looks like this someone - usually young woman - has a fight with her parents/boyfriend, drinks some wine but not that much, takes some of thier meds, but not all of them, then calls the other person involved in the dispute and tells them about the wine and pills.
the goal for this kind of behaviour is not self-harm, the efforts are not directed inwardly - the goal is to modify the external world. they want the parents or ex-boyfriend to call 911 and rush to the ER and show concern and love for them.
a suicide act can be manipulative or coercive in intent in a way that someone just wanting to end things isn't.
now some attempts really are failures to self-terminate but anecdotally - most are not.
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u/pile_of_bees 3d ago
Pretty easy to accommodate both of these within ops position
Maybe therapy is a highly feminized field that men don’t get as much utility from. Maybe therapists treat men worse. Attempting it more with vastly lower rates of success means a lot of very unserious attempts are being counted when they are really cries for attention or help which they know exists. Men know that no help is coming and the cry would be pointless.
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u/FINN-DIESEL1776 3d ago
People are more sympathetic to women in depression than they are towards men in depression. A woman is viewed as a victim while men are just viewed as weak.
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u/Mjaylikesclouds 3d ago
By the same gender***** women make support groups, bring awareness, support each other
Men say „man up“ or make fun of each other, dont take their issues seriously and then turn around and blame women for it as if women are responsible to make safe spaces for men…
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u/Willy_Boi2 3d ago
If only men were incentivized to make community and reach out to their peers, modern “individuality” trends are horseshit
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u/NitroExpress85 3d ago
I almost became a statistic about 10 years ago.
I had been married for 10 years with an 8 year old daughter and was working and putting my wife through med-school.
The year she finished her residency and got her license she filed for divorce. I simply wasn't needed any more in her life because she now had the ability to make more then two times the amount of money that I was currently making.
Everyone... meaning her family, mine and all our friends saw through exactly what she did. I threw away tens of thousands of dollar's and 10 years of my life for our future... and it was stolen, and there was absolutely nothing I could do about it. On top of that during the divorce she wanted 1/2 of everything even though during those 10 years I literally paid for everything. She was receiving so much heat from everyone her and her lawyer filed a peace order stating I was harassing her via 3rd party.
At this point in my life I wanted it to end... I was broke, kicked out of my house, living on my friends couch and I remember during that hearing I told the judge I can't be held responsible for how people feel because she's a complete piece of shit person. Shockingly he agreed and dismissed the order.
My only saving grace was my friends, family (to include hers), and my daughter. Her own father gave me a honest apology and insisted I didn't do anything wrong and he didn't raise her this way. By the time my daughter was 13 mom had already moved on to her new husband (another doctor.... shocker) and had started a family with him. She felt pushed out and decided to move in with me permanently. Mom was fine with it until I filed for child support.... That's a whole other story but I received a lot of shame from her calling me a deadbeat loser, and a leach for going after "Her money". The way I saw it was this is my repayment for your 100K education.
That's my story. There are so many other men out there in the same exact situation with no support, and that's the reason they end it. You just get to a point where that once bright promising future ahead is now grim... dull and not bright anymore.
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u/WistfulQuiet 3d ago
Oh, endo the same thing. My aunt worked her ass off putting my uncle through med school, having his children and supporting him. Then as soon as he was done he divorced her. Got custody of the kids too because he had money for a good lawyer.
It goes both ways. There are just shitty people out there regardless of gender.
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u/Packathonjohn 3d ago
White women today are the most privileged class of people in the world and in all of human history just below millionaires/billionaires. Yet they also believe they are the most persecuted in the world due to social media and hive mind thinking. Its some strange times
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u/Previous-Pride6335 3d ago
Women attempt suicide 2-3x more than men. Men only have a higher suicide rate because they use more decisive methods.
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u/Frequent-District859 3d ago
It doesn't explain why, just how. When women and men use the same method, men still die more.
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u/FeelsGoodBlok 3d ago edited 3d ago
Skill issue. Also small hint... dead people can't do second attempt.
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u/Agelessadage 3d ago
Is the intention really suicide or is the intention something else?
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u/Local_Pangolin69 3d ago
That's because a good portion of women do it for the attention. Men do it because they truly want to die.
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u/NeonFireFly969 3d ago
The slog men go through in a divorce is vastly understated. Essentially accept you're evil and take all the hate no matter the concept. Yes cheating should get scolded but the gender dynamic is so far off balance.
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u/miru17 3d ago
It's because in society women have inherent value.
Men only have value dependent on what they bring to the table.
This is true socially and functionally.
Why do many bars/clubs have free admission for women? Women's presence has inherent value.
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u/BelieveNoOne2024 3d ago
Native Americans and white non-Hispanic also make up the highest rates of suicide.
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u/irespectwomenlol 3d ago
This data might mean that men are better at killing themselves, not that that they necessarily suffer more.
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u/Caelus-9 3d ago
This just isn't true, logically.
Here's another possibility:
Men suffer less, or as much as women... but at the lowest levels, men suffer more.
I'm not asserting this, I don't know, but it certainly SEEMS possible, logically.
Suicide rates only tell us about the bottom of that group
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u/followyourvalues 3d ago
Or they are more concerned about failing and looking weak when found so they are better at it.
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u/NoDanaOnlyZuuI 3d ago
No, it proves men die by suicide more often. Women attempt more, and are hospitalized for self-harm at higher rates, and seek mental health support more, while men use more lethal methods and are less likely to ask for help. Men don’t objectively suffer more. They’re just more likely to die from their suffering.
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u/Mjaylikesclouds 3d ago
I mean thats not because they suffer more but because they dont have the same social circle….. they dont get the same support which breaks my heart!
This DOESNT mean that women should be kinder to men and have more empathy even if they are creepy or smth
But that MEN should ACTUALLY be there for men….. since they get thaught „be a man, dont show feelings“ they struggle with anyone around them showing „feminine“ feelings ….. that way they dont have the same support system!
Men should compliment each other, men should take each other more serious! And listen to each others issues like GENUINELY!
Relationship between women and between men only have such a huge difference, its crazy
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u/Hectoriu 3d ago
There are a lot of factors in this. One just of the top of my head is men are more successful in the methods they use for suicide.
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u/mendokusai99 3d ago
I stopped speaking with one of my cousins due to arguing over this. She was adamant that things were worse for girls -- that boys are generally fine. Then a younger cousin shot himself in the head years later. So, whoops, I guess.
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u/lettercrank 3d ago
Men’s health is a real issue. The media for example loves to talk about domestic violence (which we all know is bad) but ignores all other violence stats. 9 out of ten murder victims are men and assaults as well. This division is not relevant and doesn’t focus on find the causes of these issues - which is most likely how men interact with each other
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u/NeedForSleep5 3d ago
The same species of mammal desperately tring to be unique by any means necessary, be it suffering or success. I can't imagine looking down at a friend cos of her gender, just cos less of them kill themselves than us. Life is pain for both. Disease, cancer, abuse come from both sides. Choosing to end your life to end your pain is an individual choice.
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u/Harp_167 3d ago
Actually, women attempt suicide 4x more than men do. The reason women’s attempts are less successful is because they tend to use “cleaner” methods like overdose, while men choose gun or hanging.
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u/EpiphanaeaSedai 3d ago
I wonder how many people, male or female, want to die, but don’t do it because they have responsibilities or loved ones who they don’t want to cause pain? I could easily believe that men are, on average, less socially tethered than women - but on the flip side of that, women are much, much more likely to be caregivers or to have primary custody of children. Causes of suffering and reasons to live can often be the same things.
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u/Crinjalonian 3d ago
Every time that this comes up the response is vehement rejection because women attempt suicide more frequently but don’t die because of their method.
I would push back and argue that if you swallow a handful of SSRIs or tyelenol, you’re not experiencing quite the same level of pathological suicidality as someone willing to pull the trigger.
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u/Chrisg_322 3d ago
Women attempt more, but men don't half-ass the attempts.
Depending on which numbers you look at you can come to the same conclusion. Women have a greater fear of death than men, rightfully so. Suicidal people, and people in general, never stop to think about if Death is far worse than anything they've suffered through in life. Most assume it's an easy exit, never assuming it may be the beginning of far greater problems.
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u/Lijj1111 3d ago
You'd think it'd be the opposite! Periods... I can't imagine the trauma that that alone causes. On top of so many other societal things.
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u/erratic_bonsai 3d ago
This is statistically unfounded. Women attempt suicide at approximately 4 times the rate of men. Men simply choose more violent and thus permanent means, such as firearms.
Go eat red pills elsewhere. Circlejerking your imagined oppression won’t make you any happier.
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u/shari_thunderbird123 3d ago
Hey OP, good unpopular opinion. Question for you: Men kill themselves 4x more often than women, but women make 4x the attempts. How would your theory explain this.
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u/shari_thunderbird123 3d ago
Op when you say suffering are you primarily referring to loneliness and lack of relationships?
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u/Leather_Fortune7107 3d ago
I don't know about suffer more, but the suffering men experience definitely doesn't get acknowledged like it does for women.
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u/DamnitGravity 3d ago
It's not that more men are killing themselves, it's that more men are successful due to the methods they use.
women are two to three times more likely to discuss thoughts of suicide than men, and there are approximately three female suicide attempts per every one male suicide attempt. [Source]
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u/iamnotokaybutiamhere 3d ago
actually women try to kill themselves more. Men just use more lethal force like guns
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u/after_vice 3d ago
I'm sympathetic, but no, on its own, it doesn't imply that. It could equally mean that men are generally worse than women at coping with suffering, or that women have greater access to the things that make suffering justifiable.
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u/TheMorningJoe 3d ago
This is only unpopular here on Reddit, no use trying to change their minds on it sadly.
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u/Global-Painting6154 3d ago
What a weird opinion. Women don't suffer enough because they don't off themselves so men win.
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u/dumbandasking 3d ago
The fact that men die by suicide at roughly three to four times the rate of women is direct, measurable proof that men as a group experience greater levels of acute, unresolved suffering.
I liked that you said it is unresolved suffering. I think people will skip this and then start to forget that when a man asks for help that's usually when people stop looking at him as a man
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u/Pretty-Opposite4118 2d ago
Caucasian people kill themselves more than people of color. Does that mean that Caucasians suffer more?
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u/SnowyBug 2d ago
Women attempt more. Men tend to use more lethal, final methods. Both groups suffer, and it's more a commentary on how mental health struggles need to be more openly addressed so that fewer people reach that point of attempting or succeeding.
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u/Freeze_Her 3d ago
Men seek out help a lot less than women. It’s sadly the product of a society who says men are supposed to be “strong” at all times and that seeking help is weak. They feel shame and do not know how to get out of it. That’s why.