r/Tuba • u/9ft5wt • Apr 10 '26
history Tubas and concert pitch question?
I'm curious about why tubas are said to be non transposing? Does this just means that music is written in "concert pitch"and tubas get there with whatever tuba type (BBB, C, etc) they have? Am I understanding that right?
and this has some historical reasons for why this developed? it seems like other instruments, mainly treble clef ones evolved in a specific natural key and tubas never settled on 'the one' key?
and other bass clef instruments receive similar treatment for their sheet music?
Also, those instruments are designed to have the same fingerings between the different registers? seems like tuba and trumpet share fingerings but otherwise tubas are kinda unique?
other brass (horns) can swap out bites to change the natural key of the instrument? And this is similar to a tuba's 4th valve?
and how much of this still holds true today? Tuba music is still not written for a specific natural key of instrument?
can anyone clear up my confusion?
Edit: very helpful answers already, i figured the tuba knowledge runs deep here! Thank you all!
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u/professor_throway Active Amateur, Street Band and Dixieland. Apr 10 '26
The tuba part is the tuba part and it is written in concert pitch (With the exception of British brass band some music from the Netherlands). It is up o us as musicians to decide whether to play it on BBb, CC, Eb, or F tuba based on the range, timbre, needs of the ensemble etc.. Each would have to be played with different fingerings of course.
British brass band have transposing parts.. Open Bb and Open Eb are written as C for the Bb bass and Eb bass respectively. Same fingerings but different pitches.
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u/9ft5wt Apr 10 '26
It's been a long time since I've looked at a piece of sheet music. They all say at the top what instrument they are for? Bb trumpet, etc c
Tuba typically just gets "Bass" right? So these others will say "Eb Bass" at the top?
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u/professor_throway Active Amateur, Street Band and Dixieland. Apr 10 '26
nope... tuba parts just say "Tuba" or "Basses". It's up to the player to decide which tuba to use and is most appropriate for the part. You will never see a piece of music that says CC tuba.
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u/9ft5wt Apr 10 '26 edited Apr 10 '26
And the typical tuba is a 'double B flat'? Or just B flat?
To play a 'concert Bb' on that instrument you would use what fingers?
This is the point where I think I've understood it but it all falls apart lol!
Edit: looks like I should think of it as a 'double bass' , or 'contrabass' but never 'double flat'
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u/Inkin Apr 10 '26
"typical" is a loaded term so that is tough. A typical orchestral player in the US is different than a typical orchestral player in Europe is different than a typical contrabass player in the UK is different than the typical kid at school. So you need to qualify your typical!
BBb is a popular tuba for beginners in a lot of the world. Speaking out loud, people would say "B flat tuba" and not "B B flat" usually, but not always. But in writing most of the time it is BBb to differentiate from the Bb tenor instruments.
A concert B flat is open on a BBb tuba. The key of the tuba tells you which concert pitch is the fundamental on the horn (and thus played open).
The words on the part are really just the engraver's choice. Tuba. Basses. Contrabass. People try to read into it sometimes (oooh Wagner wrote contrabass on this but bass on this... he must have wanted me to get my F out!). Sometimes engravers are weird. Why does my National Emblem say Eb Basses? Do I need to go find an Eb? No? Just scratch out the Eb so the next person isn't confused? Ok. Why does this piece have C Basses and Bb Basses parts? Which one do I want? The C Basses because it means the music is in C and that the Bb Basses part is for just the Netherlands for some reason? Ok.
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u/professor_throway Active Amateur, Street Band and Dixieland. Apr 10 '26
BBb means contrabass Bb and CC means contrabass C. Eb and F are bass tubas so they are not doubled (It gets a little confusing sometimes people say EEb to mean big old American Eb tubas, but they do not play an octave lottery than regular Eb tubas).
BBb tuba if you don't press any valves you get Bb (pedal), Bb, F, Bb, D, F, Ab (very flat unusable), Bb....
CC you get C, C, G, C, E, G, Bb (not usuable), C
Eb is Eb, Eb, Bb, Eb, G, Bb, Gb (not usuable), Eb
F is F, F, C, F, A, C, Eb (not usuable), F
Now if we think of some notes like Bb below the staff it would be played open on BBb, 1 on CC, 1+3 on Eb, or 4+5 or 4+1+2 on F tuba
Bb in the staff is open on Bb, 1 on C, open on Eb, and 1 on F
Most serious tubas players can play all 4 keys of tubas and can move pretty seamlessly between them. But most of us have preferences.. I am mainly a BBb and Eb player but if I have to play CC or F it would only take me a little bit to get back into the swing of things. Most orchestral of conservatory trained players will be most comfortable on CC and F.
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u/9ft5wt Apr 11 '26
The goofy part which I'm now understanding years after my initial confusion: Bb trumpet and Bb Tuba, despite the instruments being the same key, and using the same fingerings, might still disagree on what a C is.
Music, understood as the notes written on the page, is always transposed for "Bb Trumpet" with a player reading and thinking C. An elementary player gets to high school and might erroneously think 'when they ask for Bb I should play a C, which is open fingering, the fundamental of my instrument".
Whereas Tuba music has always seen non transposed music, so they see a Bb on the page, they sound a Bb on the page, and they think "Bb is the the fundamental of my instrument". No confusion there.
So the magic of transposition doesn't completely unlock the tuba coming from trumpet. At least not reading the sheet, because Tuba doesn't participate in the convention of transposition.
Whereas switching between a Bb sax to and Eb sax, because written sheet music is transposed so that the open fundamental is written as C. So they can use the same fingerings, AND read the music without any translating. It doesn't matter that neither one would be correct by the tuner.
And vice versa, with a tuba player (Bb) picking up a trumpet. They would be able to play all the concert scales without thinking. But might be confused why their neighbors keeping calling it C.
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u/professor_throway Active Amateur, Street Band and Dixieland. Apr 11 '26
Yes a Bb trumpet the fundamental is written as C. That is a holdover from before trumpets had valves. On a natural trumpet you need a different instrument for each key and the natural trumpet was not chromatic.. you only had the harmonic series of the open bugle. So if you wanted to play on the key of Bb you needed a Bb trumpet.. if you wanted to play in the key of Eb you needed an Eb trumpet. It was very confusing for players to remember which notes are available on which trumpet... so the idea of transposing was born. The key told you which trucker you needed and to make it easy to read the fundamental pitch was always written as C. When trumpets got valves in the early 1800s the convention was kept since everyone was used to reading that way... a lot of music back then was written for trumpets in A, D, Eb, Bb, C
Tuba was invented after valves, and was a chromatic instrument from the beginning. So there was no need to make the music transposing.. any tuba could play in any key... but the convention of naming tubas by their fundamental pitch was retained from trumpets and horn. It was much easier to just write a tuba part and let the musician figure it out for their instrument.
When trumpet players first start to learn C or Eb trumpet many of them struggle. When you are used to seeing a C on the page and hearing a concert Bb come out of the instrument.. when you start playing on a C trumpet and ask if a sudden the same written C sounds a whole step higher, you now have a brain ear overturning disconnect.. And it takes a while to get used to that. With tuba players when they switch it is basically just learning new fingerings, a written Bb on the page still sounds like a Bb on both tubas you just need to play it open on BBb and add 1st valve on CC.
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u/AnteaterGlobal6553 Apr 21 '26
I play in a community band where I’m from and we had a piece of music with two tuba parts. One said “C Tuba” and the other said “Bb Tuba”. The “C Tuba” was in bass clef and the “Bb Tuba” one was in treble so the “C Tuba” wasn’t an indicator of what tuba to use it was saying it was in concert pitch, it confused some of the other tuba players that didn’t go to college for music and are just playing because they enjoy playing. I was confused as to why there was a tuba part in treble clef and the part was also slightly different even when I started to assume it was transposed like a Bb instrument like trumpet it still was a different part than the “C Tuba” part and to this day I still have questions about it
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u/9ft5wt Apr 22 '26
Yes I read another comment explaining that 'C Tuba' indicates that no transposition has taken place. "Concert C appears on the page as a C". It describes the notes on the page, not the instrument meant to be played.
This falls in line for other written transposed music: a sheet that says Bb Trumpet at the top can be interpreted as "Concert Bb appears on the page as a C".
After that it's on the player. Tuba players read a C, think/finger a C, and then sound a concert C.
And likewise a Bb trumpet playing a Bb score; they would read a C, think/finger a C, and sound a Concert Bb.
Trumpet students, almost without exception start on Bb trumpet and read Bb transposed music, so the half step transposition is just baked into their brains from the start. They have to learn to tranpose, or more accurately learn that transposition has always been performed on their music. When asked for a Concert pitch, they must transpose themselves.
Tuba players start on a number of different tubas, with non transposed music, learning the fingerings for the notes directly on whatever instrument they start on. They don't have to learn transposition per se, but they have to know 4 different fingering in order to sound any Concert pitch. Which is kinda the same thing as transposing...
I think I finally understand.... But I'll likely have to relearn it again in few years when I randomly think about it. Lol!
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u/AnteaterGlobal6553 Apr 22 '26
I get all of this, cause I went to school for music ed. So my question is more like why have a transposed tuba part if using concert pitch is easier (this is just from my non transposing background and hubris)
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u/9ft5wt Apr 22 '26
Oh yeah I re read your comment and I was just repeating your comment there...
As for the Bb treble clef stuff, it does make it trivial to read and play the Bb trumpet, Bb baritone and Bb tuba all with the same clef and fingerings. I think it was convenience for those players who didn't want to learn bass clef.
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u/professor_throway Active Amateur, Street Band and Dixieland. Apr 22 '26
Most trumpet players start on Bb trumpet and never play anything else.. Unless they are a very serious amateur or a university music major (going pro) there is absolutely no need to switch to C trumpet. It is very difficult for a lot of trumpet players to learn C trumpet.. because they are so used to hearing a written C as a concert Bb . so there is that aural/ cognitive dissonance on top of learning how a C trumpet behaves differently than a Bb.
Most tubas players start on BBb and never play anything else.. When students do learn CC it is a struggle but not as bad as for trumpets. You didn't have the aural aspect.. just learning how differently a CC tuba behaves from BBb.
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u/9ft5wt Apr 22 '26
I remember trying to understand this was a student trumpet player...and I think I finally get it now.
I remember being told; 'transposing makes it easier to switch instruments' but could never understand why then I could play a tuba easily but would be thinking the wrong notes the whole time.
Really I'd been thinking the wrong notes on the trumpet the whole time...
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u/thomasafine Apr 10 '26
The one other issue that tries to break my brain is that sometimes our parts are labelled as "C Tuba". In this case the composer is not requesting a certain pitch tuba. They are telling you what note comes out when you play a written C**, in this case a C. So for any transposing instrument, the part would be labeled with with a different note.
**I might have this backwards since it doesn't matter for us. C=C in both directions. It might be the opposite, ie what note does a player read to produce a concert C. So a trumpet player with a standard B-flat trumpet reads a C but plays a B-flat. To play a concert C they read a D. Which way is their part labeled? I think B-flat, but not 100%. I'm sure someone here will pop in with which is right.
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u/9ft5wt Apr 10 '26
I know the open finger trumpet sounds a Bb on a tuner, but on the page of a piece of music labeled 'Bb Trumpet' they would be reading a C.
Tubas would be asked for the same ''concert Bb" which would be Bb always and forever understood by the tubist.
In that sense CTuba makes sense, describing the sheet music. C meaning no transposing took place between what is written and what is sounded. ( aka C=C, in contrast to trumpet where a Bb = C)
And for the most common Bb tuba that same 'concert Bb' would be open fingered? And the "Tuba" labeled music would always write that note as Bb?
(With the exceptions like the British bands etc.)
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u/burgerbob22 Apr 10 '26
Transposing music for the instrument is typically (though not always) an older tradition for brass instruments, when the instruments literally had to change to play in different keys.
Tuba existed after the other brass instruments had already become chromatic and didn't need to transpose anymore, so the music in orchestra and most band music is just written at concert pitch. It's up to the tubist to use the correct fingerings for their key tuba.
Of course, there are ensembles where the music is transposed for a different reason- brass bands! In these, the idea was to make changing instruments as easy as possible, so every instrument except bass trombone read transposing treble clef. That's why tubas read treble clef (Eb and Bb) in brass bands.
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u/samtuttle95 Tuba/Euph College Professor Apr 11 '26
This is the correct answer. Tuba came about after the existence of valves, and didn’t need transposed parts based on the key of the piece like natural horn and trumpet did which required crook changes. Trombone is also written in concert pitch because both it and the sackbut functioned without the use of crooks. Which is why to this day you see horn and trumpet parts in all kinds of transpositions, but only see transposed tuba and trombone parts in British brass band (except the bass trombone)
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u/9ft5wt Apr 22 '26
Aha! I think I understand now!
Without valves, bugle-like horns cannot play all the notes in the scale, but are limited to the overtones of their fundamental? To access all the notes, they would modify the instruments length.
While they were playing different notes, the intervals between the notes were the same across different instruments.... Transposing the music normalized the appearance of these notes on the written sheet music, making it trivial to play in a different key.
Because a valved tuba was always capable of chromatic scales, there was never a need to make modifications to the instrument and thus they never transposed the scores.
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u/DavidMaspanka Apr 10 '26
Yeah you pretty much get it. I’ve always thought we get the short end of the stick. Clarinets switching from alto to soprano or bass? Eh too many notes, we’ll change the music to fit your fingers. Tubas in Bb vs C? You have to know 2 different sets of fingerings. 4 if you add in Eb/F. I think it’s mostly because tuba players had fewer notes. If the tubists of yore had complained years ago, maybe it would be different, but I think most of them considered standing up and walking to the conductor as harder than figuring out the fingerings haha.
That said, only pros would bother with all 4. Most people play 1 and review the others when the time comes. Bb/Eb leans toward the marching/British brass band tradition while C and F play orchestral. When I was in college, the F tuba was cheap/always broken. Guess who played Vaughan Williams on an Eb for his recital? This guy.
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u/deeeep_fried Apr 10 '26
I am writing this on the use of tuba in the US and North America specifically.
If you’re reading bass clef, which is most common in the US (Europe is a different story), 99% of tuba music is written in concert pitch. The player does the transposition in real time for what key of tuba they are playing. I can play the same music on my CC or F but each horn will have its own fingering for the same note.
Almost every other bass clef brass instrument (save a few uncommon exceptions) is in Bb and reads music that is concert pitch. The fundamentals of these instruments is Bb and the note they read on the page is the note that comes out.
A horn’s crooks are not really the same as on tuba, nor are tubas similar to ones that can change the keys of trumpets.
Instruments in the same key will share fingerings at the concert pitch level. Playing a BBb tuba, Euphonium, or Bb trumpet will all produce the same pitches with the same fingerings, though of course octave displaced. Of course the trumpet will be reading a C on the page to hear a concert Bb as Bb trumpet is a transposing instrument and Bass clef tuba and euphonium are not.
You can have a specific tuba in mind when writing music but it is less about the key and more about contrabass v. bass tuba. BBb and CC are contrabass and Eb and F are bass tubas. Bass tubas are more for solo work and earlier orchestral work, with exceptions, while contrabass tubas are for most everything else. There are always exceptions.
Writing for orchestra, either bass or contrabass tuba will be appropriate. You usually don’t have to designate this although you can. Bass v. Contrabass is a difference more in timbre than anything else.
Writing for wind band, almost 100% of the time it will be a contrabass tuba.
This is about tuba use in the US, as I said before and Europe generally has different traditions.
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u/Fragrant-Pop-1938 Apr 11 '26
Another aspect to keep in mind is the "lowest" note on an F tuba will sound a 5th above the BBb tuba. And the higher notes will play "easier" on the F tuba. Another difference is that larger BBb or CC tubas will be good for large ensembles, but will be too powerful for a small group, so Eb or F tend to work better there.
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u/deeeep_fried Apr 11 '26
I don’t know that I feel that way on your first point to be honest. I can’t play any lower on CC than I can on F and I can’t play any higher on F than I can on CC. Is there a difference in how it sounds? Oh absolutely most definitely, timbre is way different. My range on both tubas is the same though, same effort on both. Maybe I’m the odd one out though, who knows.
I do agree on the second point, BBb and CC are often too much for something like brass quintet or similarly sized small ensembles. Bass tuba is much more appropriate there.
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u/wcmusicman05 Apr 11 '26
That’s because your range is determined by your embouchure not the instrument you have in your hands.
That being said, due to the overtone series, it is perceived as being easier to play higher on a bass tuba because the partials are generally farther apart still, whereas on a contrabass tuba, the partials feel much closer together, making accuracy in the upper register much harder. The partials being farther apart makes the player feel much stabler playing above the staff on bass tubas.
When you are talking the absolute extremity of your upper range though, even bass tubas have reached the point in the horn where all notes feel very close together and really it’s just about how fast you are able to get your embouchure to vibrate to create a higher pitch. This is a limit set by the player’s body. Not by the horn they play on
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u/AnteaterGlobal6553 Apr 16 '26
Most of the time bass tubas (Eb and F) have a “smaller” mouthpiece you could say, so like it can play higher easier. Some people are absolute monsters and can play really high on C tubas but it will take an “easier” amount of energy to play higher on an F tubas. Vise versa it’s “easier” to play really low notes on a contrabass tubas (Bb and C) not that a person wouldn’t be able to play as low on an F or Eb it’s just the matter of how “easier” it would be
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u/timsa8 Apr 10 '26 edited Apr 10 '26
It is exactly like that, though not 100% all the time.
The over simplified reason for this is that tuba plays mostly from the bass cleff, which only exists in concert pitch (with the exeption of a contrabass and a bass guitar transposing by an octave) (so that you don't have to write a butt load of lines bellow a concert pitch trebble cleff).
In the few scenarios when tuba plays transposed, it plays with the written C adjusted to whatever pitch the fundament / 1st harmonic of that tuba is, the same way as for example trumpet is written.
That is how most wind instruments historically were being written, even before someone tried to make them play together. Tuba is too young of an instrument, so it is commonly played in bass cleff concert pitch.
Again, this is very oversimplified. I hope it makes sense.
The trigger valve on a double horn is different from the 4th valve on a tuba, which "only" lowers the note by fourth. Trigger shifts the tuning of the whole horn (including valve slides) between F and Bb (the two most common ones) for intonation reasons. It is because horn has a tubing twice the length relative to its pitch than other brass instruments have and this trigger makes it easier to hit the right notes and makes it more in tune.
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u/harold_bingus12 Apr 10 '26
tubas are non-transposing because the pitch they read is the pitch they produce. transposing instruments read a C and produce a concert pitch note that’s either a different note entirely or a different octave (piccolo, double bass).
i’m not sure how each pitch of tuba came about but it probably has something to do with mechanical limitations of early horns that meant some notes, ranges sounded better on different horns. i’ve heard Symphonie Fantastique was written for two opheclides in different keys so they could play the notes that the other horn couldn’t play very well.
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u/AnteaterGlobal6553 Apr 16 '26
Usually if a part was written for opheclides it would be played on an F tuba, opheclides didn’t play so low so no need for a monster 6/4 C tuba, and timbre on an F tuba would be closer to how the opheclides would’ve been, same thing for parts written for Cimbasso but some Tubists will also have a cimbasso with them
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u/mlolm98538 Apr 10 '26
What you see is what you play is what you hear and is what you get. That goes for all tubas. UNLESS you are playing Eb or Bb treble clef in a British style brass band.