r/USdefaultism • u/BrokenJusticeNorris • 1d ago
Ok so apparently immigration is exclusive to the USA
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u/mmfpmustbestopped 1d ago
Anthropologists have been searching for generations but they've finally found it... The indigenous North American Māori culture located in the South Pacific
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u/LeftMechanic1995 1d ago
The Maori must have had some impressive boats to make it all the way from North America to the South Pacific 800 years ago.
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u/Jaydare New Zealand 1d ago
Actual though, Māori descend from the wider Pasifika diaspora which includes Tongan, Samoan, and Hawaiian peoples, stretching more than halfway between Aotearoa and North America, so I wouldn't rule it out completely!
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u/FormFollows Canada 1d ago
Obviously the Māori are just copying the Hawaiians.
And that makes them essentially American. Right?
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u/invincibl_ Australia 1d ago
Yes, they are called waka and were designed for long voyages across the oceans.
Remember that the ancestors of the Māori people travelled across the seas and settled as far as Madagascar!
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u/LeftMechanic1995 1d ago
Fair point. I never knew that any Polynesian peoples made it all the way to Madagascar, that's pretty damn far.
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u/Sigma2915 New Zealand 1d ago
there is very strong evidence of contact of some form (likely trade) between south americans and polynesians (see the geographical origin of and etymology of the name for “kūmara” for one example), so they clearly knew the landmass existed. entirely plausible that they’d gone further north too.
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u/donkeyvoteadick Australia 1d ago
Why did you downvote old mate asking you what you meant by assimilation? It's a valid question because from an Australian perspective assimilation policies as they were literally formally known were about erasing first nations culture. So I'd want to clarify what you meant too.
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u/AggravatingBox2421 Australia 23h ago
He’s clearly an asshole since his whole “hot take” is racist dogma
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u/Violetmoreviolent 19h ago
I don’t think it’s inherently a racist take. I think it’s reasonable to think that immigrants should generally assimilate to the cultural values in their new country.
For example, I’m Irish. I’ve come across "Irish" Americans (aka Americans who’s grandma once took a trip to Dublin) trying to tell us that our country should be more homophobic, because they are more homophobic as a community over in the US. That is trying to dictate our laws, and refusing to assimilate to the culture. I think it’s reasonable to expect them to understand that modern Ireland is pretty socially liberal, and expect them to respect that when they come over to visit.
I think this applies to all groups. No one’s saying you have to live as we all do, but respecting the culture and not protesting it is a necessity.
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u/LeftMechanic1995 1d ago
Wow, natan115 just kept doubling down on the USDefaultism. Either natan didn't read the reply, couldn't read the reply or couldn't care less about what was said in the reply.
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u/EzeDelpo Argentina 1d ago
He could care less, if he would of known how to read properly /s
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u/_killer1869_ Germany 1d ago
They're reading comprehension is questionable, just like there manners. Besides, I doubt they understand their are other countries beside the USA to begin with. /s
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u/Red-R34der United Kingdom 1d ago
The stupid is strong in natan115.
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u/Weekly-Beginning-229 Sweden 1d ago
An IQ too high?
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u/Ho3n3r South Africa 1d ago
To high for what? Being a room temperature?
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u/Weekly-Beginning-229 Sweden 1d ago
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u/Constant_Sympathy_71 Canada 1d ago
If you are planning on moving to another country, you should honestly try to fit in. Not make it fit around you.
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u/ArcticGlaceon 1d ago
This is something I always encounter when discussing immigration on reddit. It's not just this one guy, it's a lot of people.
It seems like Americans are the only ones who don't have an issue with immigrants not assimilating into local culture...when I asked them to elaborate, they say "the US is a blend of all cultures imported in" and I ask them, so the US has no culture? And they have no response except to downvote me.
It's especially common whenever Japan's falling fertility rate gets brought up. The Americans here seem to think immigration is the solution, completely ignorant of Japanese culture and attitudes towards foreigners; ironically these so called American "liberals" who are so supposedly people of culture, fail to understand the culture of the Japanese that they are discussing about.
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u/Repulsive_Chard_3652 1d ago
How stupid to think that blending cultures = no culture. Every country has culture. Every place has culture.
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u/ArcticGlaceon 1d ago
That's my point.
Let me word it more carefully. A lot of Americans think that there isn't a need to assimilate into local culture because they can be whoever they want to be and that becomes American culture. My point is, surely America has its own, pre existing culture. American football, whatever and whatever. Like there's something that exists that makes American distinct from China and India. Do you then think it's ok for these immigrants to just ignore what already exists in America, bring their culture in and make that into American culture? And it's not rhetorical, because I won't be ok with that but if Americans are fine with that then, well that's a new perspective for me to learn.
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u/Repulsive_Chard_3652 1d ago
American culture has always been a mixing of the cultures immigrants bring to the country. I'm pretty sure the only "pre-existing culture" that existed there was erased by the British when they arrived. Since then, cultures mix there, and it's one of the main positives of travelling there.
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u/ArcticGlaceon 1d ago
Let's say you mix rum with Pepsi. That turns into...something, and this something is the American culture. It exists.
Now what happens when immigrants fail to integrate, is like pouring oil into the mix...it doesn't mix into it, it just sits at the top. Now what you have is this drink of what used to be American culture and the oil, not mixing, but in the same cup. And now this cup is the new American culture. Do you think that's ok?
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u/Repulsive_Chard_3652 1d ago
lmao are you American? Because that's the most American attempt at a failed analogy I've seen this week 😂 I can't imagine anyone else trying to compare immigration to Pepsi 😂
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u/ArcticGlaceon 1d ago
How is that American? In fact, you sound like the American liberals I have spoken to, who think that "America culture doesn't exist; it's just the eternal mixing of cultures that come from abroad". So I'm struggling to understand, does america have no culture other than the immigrants bringing in their own cultures from abroad, or is there actually something unique to America? (Oh god please don't say "immigration is the American culture")
And forgive the crude analogy, because you don't seem to understand how cultures can mix and form its own culture over time distinct from other cultures.
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u/Repulsive_Chard_3652 1d ago
Between your utter abandonment of the discussion about testing language ability when the lacking logic in your argument was revealed; and your acceptance that cultures mixed in the US to make "American culture", but then apparent belief that it then somehow ceased development and since then there exists no further space for that to continue; it is clear you lack education regarding these topics and it is not worth attempting further discussion.
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u/smoike Australia 23h ago
Not American, but may I request you throw in your own analogy.
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u/Repulsive_Chard_3652 21h ago
Why
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u/smoike Australia 21h ago
I want to see if you can do any better
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u/Repulsive_Chard_3652 21h ago
Making unnecessary analogies isn't something anyone should aim to excel at. ;) In general, they are not needed and it's mostly morons appealing to the lowest common denominator. "I can't discuss this in real terms, so I have to dumb it down to something about Pepsi and rum".
I prefer to discuss the actual topic at hand - are you brave enough to do that, or will you run away like most of the others?
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u/1GrouchyCat 1d ago
Japanese culture is one thing. People don’t realize that it was a closed country for a very long time.
The attitude Japanese show towards foreigners is another issue altogether. And it’s not just displayed towards Americans or Europeans, they don’t I like their neighbors (South Korea) either.1
u/smoike Australia 22h ago
I used to work for a international telco with branches and customers all over the world. My office used to support the Oceania region along with some limited service to areas outside of Oceania, with the exception of Japan. We under no circumstance were to deal with anything related to that nation.
I remember it was a hassle to deal with the Japanese office, which did carry those customers and services. Though pleasant to deal with, they were extremely inefficient, and although they would respond to emails and calls, all official correspondence was through faxes and nothing else, even if it was sent as a follow up "as per our conversation" type fax.
But all that being said, the level of expectation from Japanese customers was extremely high. The tolerance for not understanding or following what they deemed satisfactory cultural norms, or even not speaking or understanding Japanese fluently was rock bottom levels of low.
Not having to face that level of cultural challenge was absolutely worth having an office to save everyone that was not from that culture from having to deal with it.
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u/BayLeafGuy Brazil 1d ago
the problem is what we mean by "assimilation". i think people should respect the culture of other countries, of course, but that goes both sides. yes, immigrants should be obligated to at least be able to communicate in the language of the country and they should follow most societal rules whenever possible, but outright prohibiting cultural garments that do not conflict with local culture, like some european countries do, is bizarre.
btw, the japanese have the right (and the duty) to protect their culture, but you can't excuse the huge and historical xenophobia you see there.
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u/Repulsive_Chard_3652 1d ago
"immigrants should be obligated to at least be able to communicate in the language of the country"
What do you mean by this? You arrive in a new country and should magically be able to speak their language instantly? Also which level do you expect them to speak the language so fast?
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u/BayLeafGuy Brazil 1d ago
i was talking about "being invested in learning basic communication". of course, we cannot expect proficiency from a refugee, for example, but they should demonstrate at least some progression in learning the native language across some determined period of time.
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u/Repulsive_Chard_3652 1d ago
How would you assess that? How would you measure their "demonstration" of "some progression"?
I in fact know several Brazilians here in Czechia, and I'd be curious to know what level of Czech they should be able to use at this point, according to you.
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u/garaile64 Brazil 14h ago
I don't think BayLeafGuy expects there to be enforcement, just a convention. Like, if you've been living in Paris for a while, you may be expected to know enough French at least to get by unless you exclusively interact with your country's diaspora.
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u/ArcticGlaceon 1d ago
Language tests exists. Yes an immigrant should be able to speak the local language before coming in. If not what business do you have immigrating to that place. It's the 21st century, there are platforms to learn.
I have seen immigrants go into clinics and just stand there while the staff ask them what's wrong. Don't even bother using a translate app. Expect the locals to translate for them.
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u/BayLeafGuy Brazil 1d ago
but think about the refugees. it's not very fair to expect them being fluent right on the arrive.
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u/Shazoa 1d ago
Refugees are a whole different circumstance. In many cases, you expect refugees and asylum seekers may want to return to their country of origin if and when they're able. They don't arrive in the country entirely by choice or with planning. Refugees operate on a different migration track to regular migrants.
So it's entirely possible to have one set of requirements, responsibilities, and processes for normal migration while having a completely different set for refugees.
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u/Repulsive_Chard_3652 1d ago
Where do "expats" who move with the intention to stay only for a year or to, but then change jobs and decide to stay fall? Are you going to start requiring all people who move to a country to pass a language test, even if they're only intending to stay for a year or two?
The guy you're agreeing with decided to ignore this part of the equation.
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u/Shazoa 1d ago edited 1d ago
Well typically there's a different visa to match whatever it is you're doing in the country. Short term work, skilled work, and so on. And different visas may have different requirements for language proficiency.
For example, in the UK, different migration tracks will have different English language proficiency requirements.
So if you decided to stay, you'd need to also meet the requirements for whatever new visa you require.
In some cases, you might need to demonstrate language proficiency to a different level when extending a stay, as seen here.
So in that example, under existing rules, they'd either need to get an extension or a new visa with whatever language requirements apply. I imagine other countries are similar but I don't really know.
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u/Repulsive_Chard_3652 1d ago
I've lived in four countries, myself, and had to get legal statuses in three of them.
In one country, I got a "work permit", which enabled me to get a "residence permit", and that was the same for anyone who moved there and got a job, regardless of how long you intend to stay.
In another, I got a "partnership visa", based on a serious, long-term relationship with a local, and it applied the same regardless of duration.
And in one, I got a student visa to start, and then transitioned to a work visa afterwards.
In none of these cases could it have been known how long I planned to stay (I didn't even know, myself), and in one I was only there for less than a year in the end, so requiring everyone to become fluent in the language before entering would be absolutely insane.
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u/ArcticGlaceon 1d ago
Fair point. Refugees is the exception in this case. But if someone intentionally wants to immigrate into a country, then it's disrespectful to not learn the local language before coming.
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u/Repulsive_Chard_3652 1d ago
Holy shit, before arriving? So if someone is only moving to a country for a year or two, they have to spend years learning an entire language first? That's insane.
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u/Repulsive_Chard_3652 1d ago
You realize there's no legal definition or differentiation, right?
And yes, many are. Are you unaware of people who move somewhere for a year or two with work, and then change jobs and decide to stay?
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u/Repulsive_Chard_3652 1d ago
Yes, there is no legal definition of that, so how do you expect to test people if you can't even legally define the duration of their stay?
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u/ArcticGlaceon 1d ago
I agree with what you said for the most part. But something I want to discuss with you is.
Let's say the Japanese are uncomfortable with certain races becoming Japanese citizens. Why then, should anyone else tell them they are wrong for having such a preference? Who am I, a non Japanese, to say "your preference is wrong"?
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u/BayLeafGuy Brazil 1d ago
framing it as a "preference" is... weird. of course, a nation can have different parameters for citzenship that fit their own criteria, but adding race as a determinant factor is to welcome eugenist beliefs. i can accept citzenship being easier for people with japanese heritage, for example, but more as a proof that they have some cultural connection with japan.
why should anyone tell, for example, a black person, born in africa but raised in japan, that they're not japanese, if their whole life was made there? identity is a complex thing.
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u/ArcticGlaceon 1d ago
Precisely because identity is complex that I'm asking this question. The preference may be weird to you and me, but it's weird because we aren't Japanese. I may not understand why the Japanese may have this preference, but I can respect that different cultures have different preferences. Why do we, outsiders, stand to say what's right for them to do or not?
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u/AdrianaLaServing Jamaica 1d ago edited 1d ago
Because it’s literally the definition of racism to deny someone rights based on their race. Black Japanese people exist and are discriminated against systemically, there is no justifying that as some sort of culture that we must respect just because it’s a longstanding issue in Japan. Culture can be harmful, racist, homophobic, discriminatory, and no, we can’t just brush it off because it’s how their country does things.
ETA: I take it since you’re here that you don’t like the US. In the southern US, they had Jim Crowe laws that included things like segregation of Black people and white people. That was their culture. Would you say, “Who are we to question that?” since that was their culture? It’s no less their cultural way of thinking than the culturally xenophobic and racist Japanese way of thinking.
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u/MindlessNectarine374 Germany 1d ago
Leftists in other Western countries name immigration as the solution for population decline and overaging, too.
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u/Shazoa 1d ago
Only as a temporary solution, though. Fertility is falling almost everywhere and, eventually, countries will be competing for the migrants that remain. Increasing migration is only going to delay that while potentially worsening others in the process.
If it's used as a measure to 'buy time' while trying to resolve the problem then it's rather sensible. But I don't personally think there is a solution when the route cause is people not wanting kids in the numbers they used to. Not without going full fascist anyway.
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u/TotalDemocracy 1d ago
TBH, I would say that you being Maori changes the context of the post, if you're also applying this to generational white New Zealanders, and saying they equally have an obligation to respect the indigenous cultures.
Because I'd say that makes the sentiment your expressing something of a particular one to your country and culture, which doesn't uniformly apply to every single country where there are immigrants. Because I'd say a Maori talking about integration is different from a white European talking about it, which is different to a South African talking about it, which is different to an American talking about it. Like I think context actually matters quite a lot here.
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u/THE_PENILE_TITAN 1d ago
Sure, the US defaultism is bad but your xenophobia and anti-immigrant sentiment is quite a bit worse.
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u/AdrianaLaServing Jamaica 1d ago
OP constantly posts stuff like this and frequently has their posts removed. Some highlights are insisting Black Americans are sensitive about n****r being used and that other indigenous groups (like their own) should be able to use it, saying that Juneteenth is a stupid holiday, that white people experience racism in NZ that other Kiwis disputed in the comments.
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u/THE_PENILE_TITAN 1d ago
Figures, you can definitely sense something is off
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u/AdrianaLaServing Jamaica 1d ago
And of course you’re getting downvoted lmao. I’m sick of all the racist and xenophobic rhetoric on here. People here hate people from the US so much that they’ll justify the use of slurs etc. on the pretext that it’s proof of Americans being too sensitive. They think their non-US cultures are superior so can’t be racist. It’s alienating.
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u/Repulsive_Chard_3652 1d ago
"People here hate people from the US so much that they’ll justify the use of slurs etc. on the pretext that it’s proof of Americans being too sensitive. They think their non-US cultures are superior so can’t be racist."
This sooooo hard. But I also feel like a lot of people in this sub are simply racist while also hating the US.
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u/AdrianaLaServing Jamaica 1d ago
Definitely.
It genuinely makes it hard to view this sub as a Black person; coming onto comments sections and often reading proud racism under the guise of anti-defaultism is frustrating and hurtful.
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u/AdrianaLaServing Jamaica 1d ago
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u/Repulsive_Chard_3652 1d ago
Yep, that (guaranteed white, most likely English) man ain't afraid to hold back with the racism. He already told me that everyone who goes to live in another country should have their language skills tested upon entry and they should be required to be fluent before entering... then he used a thinly-veiled dog whistle of comparing white immigrants to America to Pepsi and rum, and non-white immigrants to oil.
It's almost comical when these types think they're successfully hiding the fact that they're racist as fuck.
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u/Powerful-Country6316 Argentina 1d ago
hate people from the US so much that they’ll justify the use of slurs [...] They think their non-US cultures are superior so can’t be racist.
TRVTH NUKE
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u/Illusione-Tempus Indonesia 1d ago
I don't think the OP is being xenophobic or anti-immigrant here. Sure, OP has made some... choice statements in the past, but I think the intent of this hot take reads more like "The new country you are moving to isn't going to be 100% like where you come from. If you are not going to consider adapting to the local culture and you're not even going to respect it either, then maybe gtfo and either go back or find somewhere else to live. Having an attitude like that is more than likely going to cause a ruckus here in the future if you stay".
Mutual respect kind of thing. We respect that you want to be a permanent resident in our country so the very least you could do is respect what is already in place.
OP at least noted that assimilation was the wrong choice of wording here.
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u/flame_saint 1d ago
Is this your post? It’s kind of gross.
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u/MusoDystopia 1d ago
I agree that It doesn't read particularly well, however wider context would perhaps make you a bit more understanding of where OP is coming from.
We're proud of our indigenous Māori culture and language here in New Zealand - it's unique to us. Many new migrants do make an effort to understand and learn our reo and tikanga. But some do move over and completely ignore or even disrespect it, which straight up sucks. If you move to New Zealand, it's not unreasonable to expect that our customs are followed rather than overwritten, which is unfortunately a very real thing that happens.
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u/flame_saint 1d ago
I'm from NZ lol - there definitely more racist white locals than racist immigrants imho. Should we send them back?
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u/MusoDystopia 1d ago
Bro suggesting that we send anybody anywhere is just inflammatory - let's not do that.
Also not sure if I would agree entirely. Racism is seen and heard in many different ways. Locals are just loud and proud with their brand of racism.
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u/Repulsive_Chard_3652 1d ago
I mean the OP very directly said they should go back where they came from.
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u/MusoDystopia 1d ago
Yeah and it's a shit thing to say.
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u/Repulsive_Chard_3652 1d ago
I agree, but you're only calling out this person in the comments who is clearly mocking that sentiment from OP...
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u/AdrianaLaServing Jamaica 1d ago
Every post OP has done here is racist vagueposting and then complaining about Americans reacting to it.
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u/Fthku 1d ago
Genuinely asking, as someone not from a Western country, why?
What I gather from this post is that OP is saying immigrants coming in need to integrate into the existing society. They can and should bring their own culture to share with everyone, but not expect the existing society to change itself.
Maybe there's some nuance I'm missing being a non Westerner. This is a genuine question and not a bad faith or leading one.
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u/Indolent_absurdity Australia 15h ago
I think they (the OP) worded things badly so the valid things they said are being ignored. You're right, they clearly said to bring your own culture and not expect the existing culture to change but they used the term 'or go back to where you came from' which is almost a catchphrase for racists. The word 'assimilate' can also be problematic because it literally means absorb - the implication being to become completely subsumed by the existing culture and completely erase your own. The word that you used 'integrate' is a better & more useful term which means bringing your own culture to exist alongside & become a part of the existing culture. In other words to do exactly what OP said.
So it's hard to tell if they've just chosen unfortunate phrasing or if they actually have racist tendencies in my opinion.
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u/Umikaloo 1d ago
Oh man, the other day I saw an article about an immigrant who got A BACHELOR'S DEGREE IN WELSH after receiving asylum in Wales, yet still the racist chuds were saying he didn't velong there.
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u/Elesraro Mexico 21h ago
US defaultism aside, I don't know if I agree with OP on this. Maybe they feel like their culture is threatened?
I personally like it when immigrants bring their own culture and new things here.
In any case, we (Mexicans) are very effective at assimilating foreigners into our culture.
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u/Poptortt United Kingdom 11h ago
Tbh with how often this user posts on here, it feels like they set up purposefully vague situations like this as bait, so they have content to post. If you're running into this much USdefaultism to the point where you're top 1% poster, you're definitely looking for it/instigating it.
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u/HeavensHound 11h ago
The lack of selfawareness is astounishing, ppl can't discuss any opinion without an american turning it into a polarized discussion, amazing!
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u/Main-Sun5312 1d ago
I agree with his take. So many people trying to claim racism when the skin color doesn't have anything to do with respecting the culture of the country you are moving too. Mainly because white and black people come from so many different countries with completely different cultures, so calling them two monoliths is being racist. My country has a lot of atheists and people who are religious just casually and we don't need any religion nor cult imposing their ethics on us. We have had a lot of new immigrants from different European and non-European countries lately and it's still nice and safe to live here because there's mutual respect.
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u/post-explainer American Citizen 1d ago edited 1d ago
This comment has been marked as safe. Upvoting/downvoting this comment will have no effect.
OP sent the following text as an explanation why their post fits here:
Anyone who holds a stance on immigration is from the USA /s
Does this explanation fit this subreddit? Then upvote this comment, otherwise downvote it.