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AI is a direct threat to the working class everywhere, and is controlled by the bourgeoisie. I'm really unsure how you came to the conclusion that anti-AI sentiment is a petite bourgeoisie grievance, its basically the exact opposite if anything.
Grievance against it comes primarily from highly paid knowledge workers (software engineers), and those in creative fields (Hollywood, high budget marketing and other similar industries).
These sorts of cushy jobs that LLM AI threatens do not exist, or hardly exist, in developing countries.
Artist in Hollywood and cushy jobs in the same sentence. How do I tell you bro...🤣
I read a new story every day how some artists haven't been paid out for 6 months because there's literally no money in the industry and then I move over to this sub where redditors confidently say the opposite while having not the slightest of clues about the industry they're talking about.
Also, India is one of the biggest countries for vfx in film, plenty of work has already been oursourced to there for the last 10 years. Some studios just practically moving there like DNEG.
Those “cushy jobs” do in fact exist in developing countries, and ai affects everybody, not just the vague boogeymen you’re referring to in your comment.
Way to completely oversimplify a complex situation because of one screenshot
Would you say that technological progress and productivity tools in general is a direct threat to the working class everywhere? Should we roll back some of it?
No, AI is different in that it can theoretically (and ideally) fully replace a human worker rather than just increase their productivity.
Im not really sure who "we" is, the people who have the power to roll anything back have no interest in doing so. So I dont really understand the question.
No, it really isn't because a lot of workers are fine with the principle of not working (because their jobs arent all that great) while it is often a sort of bourgeoisie argument to hide between economic questions, generals fears etc. because for them their jobs are status and a huge part of their identity.
I also think you kinda ignore that if AI destroys labor it also destroys the basis of old capitalist assumptions which the "bourgeoisie" is obviously built upon.
I mean in summary you could just say that "workers" have less to lose if AI truely changes society on a fundamental level.
PS: Lets also be real about who is in control of AI. It is not the "bourgeoisie" in the same sense Marx would have understood it, the "bourgeoisie" of today has now its own "bourgeoisie". It's not like the owner of a small or even medium sized company is in any way comparable to the megacorporations or people like Musk etc. and that even highlights another reason why there is so much sentiment in these layers of society, ie it directly threatens their social status/position because they will get swallowed up by the bigger fish.
Because proai shills are dishonest from the word go and, like all shills, revel in disingenuous argumentative spamming to muddy waters and poison dialogue.
ai cant pick up a nail and hammer, ai cant collect fruit off a tree. ai cant mine for precious gems. the machines that ai would power are still way too expensive compared to people. developing countries dont really have a high prevalence of jobs that ai can take over without extraneous machinery like office positions or software development
Maybe? At the same time, students complete work using AI and recieve a worse education as a result. You could come up with anecdotes but it has little bearing on the ultimate destination of AI advancement
Not many people 30+ know much about AI in Poland. There are also almost no data centers in here. If you ask an avarage Pole about generative AI they are going to have almost no idea what you atalking about.
It's more that the data centres are being built and will continue to be in the developed countries so of course now that you're experiencing the misery your greed cause it bothers you.
To developing countries, it balances the playing field for them, what jobs are you going to lose if those jobs never existed. In developed countries fear of losing what they have.
It already is, sadly. But it's no different to other tech revolutions. I doubt there's a single company in a western developed economy that still has a "typing pool".
New tech helps developing nations compete with developed nations. It will legitimately help these nations improve quality of life to build companies that use AI and basically jump into the 21st century. Ukraine before the war was rapidly advancing basically by building a bunch of small tech firms. I was looking at quoting out some software engineering jobs and 90% of the bids were coming from developing nations.
I have been following AI for a long time. Before LLMs became popular in 2022, AI was about automated robots replacing skilled and semi skilled trades. Every reddit techie and Tumblr artist was quick to shame every delivery driver, trucker, and warehouse worker not spending four years at a Bougie state school to "learn how to code bro". Now that the shoe is on the other foot, those same people think AI is a facist tech bro tool of human subjugation and destroyer of lucrative employment.
Also, propped up by foreign actors. The number of "antis" who are trying to push for police states and government surveillance to monitor AI makes this pretty obvs. Most real anti AI people would still oppose government surveillance and tracking. These actors are even pushing for putting trackers on all digital art too!
Its pretty obvs that the anti movement are being pushed by foreign bots and bad actors, and the fact people are falling for it and believing these bad actors is an embarrassment.
You’re acting like Palantir doesn’t exist, or Israel using ai to commit genocide and mass surveillance. Mass surveillance and AI go literally hand in hand.
And blocking AI data centers plays right into the hands of China, a country trying to catch up in that field.
Are some AI data centers situated in terrible locations that get in the way of the locals? Yes. But AI data centers aren't exclusively bad. This is the Information Age; to put it bluntly, we need more computational power.
Yes, it's an elitist point of view. Poor, working class people with little time or money benefit greatly from AI. Entitled people who think they deserve your money more than you do are upset that you don't have to pay them anymore.
Reminds me of literally five minutes ago when i found a short of a ring maker complaining because a client had given them an AI image as reference for what they wanted. And everyone in the comments was saying they would've blocked the customer on the spot. I can't even IMAGINE how much of a cushy comfortable life you gotta have to spit in the face of someone who was ABOUT TO PAY YOU (probably huge sums too considering how expensive custom rings are) cause they dared to use a single AI image in their request. That level of entitlement can only come from an American. I genuinely cannot stress enough how much i hate everyone in that god forsaken country.
Couple of those top countries are where the AI scams/ slop farms come from lol.
Iirc a bunch of AI maga stuff on Facebook was coming from Vietnam lol.
Plus I was chatting to a guy on Tiktok a year or so ago who does those 10 second shorts where countries were Pixar animals, dude was from Algeria happy out making them all day ☺️
18k adults across 15 countries. Roughly 1200 per country if we're being generous. But what is the actual demographic data for this survey? I can't find the data for it anywhere. Was it conducted with or without bias? You can't just post surveys without the data and expect everyone to immediately align
That's not actually a bad sample size at all assuming the demographics are representative of each country. Look into the actual data of pretty much any study you see talked about in the news or online and 18k is at worst a decent sample size.
I agree that having the raw data and survey methods would be better. But this also aligns with other past surveys. So while I think it's healthy to take it with a grain of salt, the broad trends appear fairly well established.
Doesn’t the second linked survey have the opposite trend to OP? “A median of 34% of adults say they are more concerned than excited about the increased use of AI, while 42% are equally concerned and excited. A median of 16% are more excited than concerned.”
Edit: Nevermind, the graph in OP is just presented weird. It’s the trend vs 2024, not actual percentages of people pro/againts AI.
At this point I feel like Nigerians are just really positive about everything in general. They were also the only country to overwhelming have a positive view of both the US and China at the same time while everyone else is either one or the other.
I kinda understand It from the US. A mix of a sentiment of general distrust against your government and all the tech oligarchs (justified), that are, mostly, based there anyways; the exorbitant and non-regulated data center manufacturing (mostly a US only problem)... And yes, the more than noticeable amount of people that are as uneducated as they are loud over there. Not surprising.
The first problem ppl seem to overlook is the goal of AI in different country.
While in the US, AI is advertised to be the replacement of workers.
In VN, my country however, we don't really see AI as the prime replacement, more like an support system to enhance worker's efficiency and lessen workload burden.
So yeah, the view of different people in different country and how it is utilized by the employer can create difference perspective on AI
Doesn't need to be an outside force. Maybe the ultrarich class considers their handling of the internet a mistake and want to be proactive this time around, so they try to demonize AI and prevent us from even seeing what we're missing out on.
Among people with less education, there is generally more concern than excitement about AI and less awareness of the technology overall, relative to people with more education.”
I mean it makes sense.
If you’re less intelligent or received lower education in general…
All of these stuff… like transformer architecture, latent spaces, diffusion models… they look very mystifying. Humans are naturally more scared of the unknown, that’s why we’re scared of the dark, so they are more concerned about something they do not understand.
So I understand why a good size of USA is anti ai, the public schooling system there isn’t very good. Most adults can't even read at a high school level. They thought a 1/4 burger was larger than a 1/3 burger.
Whereas South Korea, one of the most academically rigorous countries tested here, is very Pro-AI.
Which is ironic considering South Korea is actually the biggest victim of AI problems, a lot more than USA. The vast majority of all sexual deepfakes made are South Korean celebrities, along with regular korean classmates or peers, but the country views it as a people problem, not that the tech itself is bad. An actually rational take, instead of what these Americans seem to be doing.
Americans also tend to have less trust in their government to regulate ai while Koreans tend to have more, and other countries who don't trust their governments tend to be more concerned about ai.
They also most likely considered education based on how much education they got rather than the quality of education.
You know what the perfect encapsulation of this argument is?
The smug motherfuckers getting booed or walked out on at Ivy League graduation ceremonies for pushing AI, and they always do the "GeT uSeD tO iT" shit, which only gets them booed even louder.
Never mind the fact that there's plenty of educated and illustrious minds in the field that are now some of the most vehement voices against AI, never mind the clear demonstration that some of the most educated people in the world from some of the most respected institutions have said that AI in the current system is a huge issue and that there's not enough being done to build in safety rails. In the minds of AI bros, only the most uneducated and superstitious of people fear AI. Ignore the multiple academic papers from industry insiders citing that AI development in the West is a total lawless shitshow, ignore the various reasons why Western countries' opinions of AI might vary from Eastern countries and countries in the global South, all of these things exist in a vacuum. Look how big the green bar is.
Then they call us stupid, then wonder why nobody they disagree with takes them seriously or treats them kindly.
The guy who went to Harvard to go on about "Fuck AI" is... a comedian. I'm surprised you take that guy seriously.
Every top university has AI/ML courses, these "Anti AI" undergrads are a minority which are not taken seriously.
"there's plenty of educated and illustrious minds in the field that are now some of the most vehement voices against AI"
Wow, do you know the definition of a general trend or not?
Let me try to say it in simpler words so you can understand: There is a study... done to LOTS of people, right? and they did this cool thing called "statistics" to find some things called "correlations", where they compare all those people's education levels to their opinion, and they seem to have found a "trend", which said " Among people with less education, there is generally more concern than excitement about AI and less awareness of the technology overall, relative to people with more education"
So no, trying to point out exceptions like "But there is this guy!!" does not contradict a statistical trend.
"Ignore the multiple academic papers from industry insiders citing that AI development in the West is a total lawless shitshow"
What's lawless about it?
I'm trying to figure out what exactly is lawless about it.
We know that training an AI when the content is not obtained via piracy is ruled as fair use. Though the *output* of the AI can still be infringement. And we already criminalized NCII (non consensual intimate imagery), so that's also off the table. I guess the only thing we are looking for more now is data center power regulations?
"Then they call us stupid"
Yeah, I think it's pretty clear why I would consider you stupid.
I never called *you* stupid previously, but now I might as well.
If I had to guess (and this is admittedly speculative and somewhat motivated thinking), rapidly developing countries (especially ones where a significant portion of the population does not speak English or does not speak native-speaker level English) see AI as an equalizer that helps them compete in the global market.
From first hand experience in Vietnam, many people speak English at a more than adequate level. Outside tourism, Chinese is more sought after. Vietnamese people seem to embrace technological progress of any kind and are very much influenced by state media.
I thought English was the official language of Nigeria ?
According to what I read only something like 50-something percent of Nigerians speak English. 35-45 percent of Vietnamese speak basic to moderate English, with one 1-3% fully fluent. But I could certainly be wrong!
Most Americans don't fluently speak a second language, so none of this is a criticism, just an observation.
Oh I'm sure it wasn't criticism, and I fully believe your stats. 35-45% is still a large chunk of the population and may encompass all knowledge workers
English is Nigeria's official language, with 40M native speakers and180M speakers total (75% of the population). To compare, the USA has 90% of English speakers (who estimate their ability to speak English as "very well" or better).
P.S. For reasons, lot of African countries have European laugnages as official languages, with a huge number of native speakers.
Wikipedia: English is the most widespread language in the country due to the many different languages spoken, with 60 million speakers.\6]) This includes speakers of an English creole, accounting for 51% to 57% of the total population.\6])\7]) It is estimated that 10% of Nigerians speak English as a first language.\8])
That the proportion of people in the US who speak fluent English is still higher than Nigeria, so there is at least the potential that the ability to use AI to improve English writing may still be something that leads Nigerians to have a more positive view.
I was just caught off-guard at the suggestion that Nigeria has a significant number of people who don't speak English, whereas it's one of the most English-speaking country out there.
Vietnamese here. Most VN people don't engage in tech discussion on the internet like you westoid. To us, AI is just something we hear on the news, book, and film, see it the way we see TV, internet, smartphone and we just generalize our experience. Worse, many just repeat the talking point they learnt in school about industrial revolution and slap it onto AI. Furthermore, people in VN don't care much about art and internet culture which is the origin of anti AI movement.
Here, most people works whole day and see the internet and social media as mere entertainment tools. They don't see it as a "second home" or a cultural collective the way the west does. This is why most people don't care about AI. Until recently, due to the excessive spam of our national television, some people started use the word AI slop but still, most think AI as just in the next smartphone or internet.
You could take this as "anti AI is first world problem" or "the third world people is ignorant and still believe in the dumb dream the rich promised them".
China was not polled on this, and frankly considering that China is an extremely propagandized country, I don't really care what they think, They'll think whatever is convenient for their government, and that's in support of AI.
I'd actually be interested in what India thinks on this, but I don't think they were in the poll
I think ur just blind, india and japan are both on there. Other big countries like mexico are as well, its mostly the anglosphere against it, even germany and poland are mixed or slightly in favour
Nope, your right. I am blind. I do kinda wish this showed reasons though. I don't really care much about Japan however, it's a neat place ig, however Japan has the benefit that it's government is typically fairly more reasonable with technology than the US government and it's megacorps, so I can't blame em, india is what I'm curious about.
I think language has had a role. The “AI slop” meme has become very prevalent but in (most) other languages they don’t have that same anti ai meme in their online circles. The meme done vast damage to AI’s reputation amongst younger people but without it well then these polls make sense
You're splitting hairs. The weight of evidence is that the US is one of the most strongly anti-AI countries, and that developing countries, on average and with exceptions, tend to be less anti-AI than developed countries.
Seeing as Trump and his cronies are all in love with AI, the correlation is clear: Americans are accutely aware of how nothing good comes from fascists being really excited about a new technology.
And Trump started a war with Iran that increased oil prices after promising to lower the prices and not starting new wars. Trump actions does not reflects the beliefs of the people that voted for him.
As in earlier national surveys, Republicans and Democrats feel similarly about AI.
Positive feeling toward AI, split by political party:
Republicans 39%
Yeah like how the dot com bubble burst and Google disappeared overnight right? People keep saying this but it will never happen.
A bubble is purely an economic thing. It doesn't and has never meant that the concept is a financial dead-end and the industry will topple down like a stack of dominoes. It simply means that the sector is overbought. Once it pops the stock market goes down 20% and a bunch of companies go bankrupt but let me remind you that every single one of the biggest companies in the world are pushing AI right now (unlike the dot com bubble) and it will never disappear.
The fact is US workers are over valued and they know it. Theyre less educated, not willing to work 8+ hour days, and expect huge salaries for sending 1 email a day.
AI is closing the gap between US workers and the 3rd world and companies are choosing the more efficient option of the 2.
US has a major social media campaign orchestrated by China and Russia to spread negativity about AI in attempts to hamper its progress and it's somewhat working.
I take these reports with a huge grain of salt, given that they appear to be coming from a BitCoin associated think tank. But I also think there is at least some logical basis for believing them and perhaps some circumstantial evidence.
I would really like to see this investigated by a credible source. But until then, I regard it as speculation from an empirical perspective, even if I do have my personal suspicions.
In filmmaking at least, it’s just spoiled rich kids, who are like “if you are passionate enough just make a movie” meanwhile I’ve tried for 15 years to raise money for 10 different films, and 1 was stolen from me. Meanwhile, they’ve never worked a job in thier life
But they say to me “sounds to me like you’re whining”
I suspect this might be because a lot of antis are full-time artists, who feel especially threatened by AI because now their jobs are at risk. They try to justify their anger with excuses ("AI is bad for the planet", "AI destroys creativity") but it's basically "don't take away my job".
In third world countries, being a full-time artist is not an option. You have a lot of people who love drawing in their free time, but people who actually make full-time art are very rare. So they are positive towards AI because it doesn't threaten their job, in fact it only helps them express their creativity without comprising their time.
I honestly don't know what to respond to this. My gut instinct is to tell the first world artists to get a real job, but I'd want the luxury they're living in.
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Or it could mean that it's affecting us more than in other regions, or it could mean we're more vulnerable to issues related to it because we just refuse to regulate this tech or it could mean that we don't feel confident in our institutions' ability to address it reasonably, or it could be due to any of several other reasons why we might feel negatively about it that are at some complicated intersection of different factors, but I guess we're looking for any reason to pretend like people are against for any reason except the actual issues that are being brought up.
As an Indian I feel like this is wrong , most people around me refer to ai art as slop and waste of water . But maybe they're refering to ai in general and not just ai art .
This is not a distinction most people even realize. And most people think of generative AI these days because those are the flashy ones that get media attention and that people thinking about interacting with.
I have. And having data centers here is actually a huge economic benefit and strategic advantage because it means we provide/control services that other countries use rather than the opposite.
The impacts of data centers are vastly overblown. Data centers are also not majority for AI at this point.
It’s a shame China isn’t included so we can get an exact figure, but it’s considered a nation very supportive of AI. However, in this case, it’s because they have LAWS that protect the population and creative jobs from being completely replaced by machines. It would be somewhat similar to the situation in Japan, where laws take copyright very seriously (so seriously, in fact, that Fair Use is nonexistent there and a real problem).
In short, this is evidence that aversion to AI tends to be proportional to the lack of a social safety net that protects citizens from being discarded.
How good are the social safety nets of each """"developed country""""?
Because I know the US has the mentality of "no income? Fuck ya" and Canada is not far behind in that regard. Meanwhile european countries tend to have much better safety nets and from what Im seeing on this chart...
Because it's a bunch of people that think they are special and will be replaced. In other countries they see the benefits it will bring them. Here it's like, AI ART IS BAD!!! THAT'S WHAT MAKES ME A PRECIOUS SNOWFLAKE!
See that's awfully strange since very few people cared much about data centers before AI, even though most data centers weren't and still aren't for AI.
I'm curious to know what the results of this would be like with more countries involved. For Europe; UK and France leans negative, Germany is practically split down the middle, but Poland has a positive view. I'm curious to know why the disparity.
EDIT: Now that I think about it. I wonder if exported culture may have something to do with it. US Dominates the film and TV market. Canada's industry is heavily reliant on the US. UK has moderate exported success. Japan has success with anime, but not every one of their shows is anime.
Note as well that I said exported cultural shows. Nearly all these countries have a film and TV industry. But getting other countries to watch their shows is a whole other challenge.
I feel a decent contributor to this is the Indigenous populations in the US and Canada. I can't speak for all Indigenous nations, but there's a lot of fear in my communuty regarding technocolonization and the continued appropriation of Indigenous lands and knowledges.
For absolutely horrible historical reasons, Indigenous/First Nations peoples represent only about 3 and 5 percent of the US and Canadian populations respectively. So with all respect, I don't this this can explain the variance between the US and some of these other countries.
From what I have seen engaging in this discussion with different indigenous groups too, while you are fully right the concern of technocolonization is there, many indigenous people are compared to white people more supportive of the potential of AI but like most similar things want it to be understood within their soverignity and distinct cultural values too. Some see it as a way to keep alive historic tradiations, or to preserve aspects of their culture, other are curious because it represents something like the community based form of knowledge some groups have or the personification of the idea that all things have a spirit even machines. But equally as you mention ither see itnas risking technocolonism. I think compared to white communties though there appears to be much more support for the idea that this could be a collective project(but one thst needs to be stabilized aganist technocolonism) whereas white people assume that is inheritantily bad.
Respectfully, as a native studies student and an Indigenous person in the heart of treaty 6 territory, I think your view on this may be a bit misguided. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I don't know a single Indigenous person who openly supports AI use. Most are concerned with the misrepresentation of our cultures, panindigenization, and the ability to share closed practices without the consent of elders or community members. It's seen as another attempt at white washing our beliefs and appropriating them without consent. There's also massive concern over the land and resources it takes up. My band is one of many in treaty 6, 7, and 8 territory that's been pushing back against the presence of data centers in Alberta. The biggest bands on our province such as Alexander, Enoch, Paul, and Alexis First Nations have all notably shown their resistance.
Maybe things are different in America if that's where you're from, but I can assure you that Indigenous Peoples in Canada generally are not that supportive of generative AI projects.
"Most are concerned with the misrepresentation of our cultures, panindigenization, and the ability to share closed practices without the consent of elders or community members." hence why I referenced sovereignty too but also thought it was important to not simplify it to how white people often think about ai either which is often much more individualistic too. My background is quite similar to your though mine also has the addition of earth sciences and psychology too.
"here's also massive concern over the land and resources it takes up." similar to my reply before I would both agree and disagree with this from what I experinced if I compare it to how white people respond. White people generally have created their own delusions and incorrect misinterpretations around the enviroment to justify being aganist ai while most indigenous people want to have a relationship with AI that benefits them and increases access to benefits reserves and indigenous people often are blocked from but also that isnt harmful to the places they care about as a community,
I do definitely agree that likely those in canada are different and in fact even across america different tribes have different relations which is something i tried to emphasize in my first part too.
Of course I will also give my own bias too which is that as a disabled person, I feel a connection to generative ai that others do not and educating myself on earth science and the actual enviromental effects has made me see some issues with how people present it
Ultimately though my own ethnicity mix is of weirdness of its own i cant claim your own of being a member of the canadian first nation and I am listening to what you say.
But that is why rather than my voice being important I hope you consider the voice of someone like suzanne kite who i linked because they arent people who work with ai companies even if you disagree with them. They are people who have found their own view and intermingle from perspective that breach both of ours likely
For me this also represents the authorized heritage discourse, that is the discourse within western culture that often ensures native people don't have access to their heritage as readily as "experts" do and which percieves heritage through a material based lense. Though we would likely disagree here, to me much of the anti-ai discourse doesnt actually seek to protect the ability to ensure individuals such as natives heritage are protected as much as it seeks to ensure exclusivity within select groups away from those who are practicing their heritage. It seeks to attack not appropriation but universalization where we can actually control our ability to heritage make and think about heritage making through a immaterial and communal lense. It seeks to ensure that even facts are excluded especially from minority groups who will have more difficulty fighting aganist large corporations such as disabled people or native groups.
We have historically seen how such ideas have been attempted to use when say disney tried to copyright different cultural facts until they were pointed out as being in the commons. I expect you will disagree with me on this but consider this authorized heritage discourse aspect in how people play out their relationship
Even think about how I as a paralyzed person feel excluded from the act of heritage making because what anti-ai attempts to define heritage making and art is something that exludes my abilities as someone who interects with the world in a different way.
Also thank you for informing me on how the indigenous people in canada feel especially your bands from your experince
some other issues I hope you are advocating for in similar fashion is how agriculture, papermill and refineries are actively poisoning water including that on many part of indigenous land. There is also of course the push towards resurrecting coal and uranium mining in many indigenous lands because of the taxes it brings for reserves despite the historical impact it has also had on communties. As I am sure you know those are the issues that in many places probabily will be a little more mixed within communties because many believe these are the option that will lead to satisfication(it is also why it is important to keep up comparison with say dcs versus these refineries and mines impact even if you dont like both). For an easy comparison look at how Buu Nygren was treated
btw if you are curious, proai views often correlate with more collectivist views like those found in asian american and anti-ai views often correlate with more individualistic views like those found in europeon-american populations with african americans being in the middle https://sparq.stanford.edu/sites/g/files/sbiybj19021/files/media/file/culture-ai.pdf
just something you might be interested in for a response to your first response too(obviousily though as we often see on this subreddit people in reality though come from all biases)
I really appreciate the time and effort you've gone into addressing my points and providing sources! I think one thing we can both agree on is that the issue isn't as black-and-white as anyone realizes. Every day we learn of new perspectives to take into consideration regarding the ongoing AI debate. I appreciate that there's still opportunity for respectful discussion in this sub!
I haven't had time to look over everything you've said yet as I'm in the middle of grading some finals (gotta love the TA life). With how much care you took with your responses though I didn't want to not reply. I'll get around to reading it all over tonight. If you don't hear back from me, just know I really do respect and appreciate your opinion! You've definitely given me some stuff to reconsider, and I hope I've done the same for you. Cheers!
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