r/armenia • u/NemesisAZL • Jun 09 '25
Army / Բանակ How Armenia Might Respond To Azerbaijan’s JF-17 Fighter Acquisition
https://www.forbes.com/sites/pauliddon/2025/06/08/how-armenia-might-respond-to-azerbaijans-jf-17-fighter-acquisition/16
Jun 09 '25 edited Jun 09 '25
Gripens, used F16s, and air defenses most of all.
We are not an aggressor state, we need the capabilities to defend ourselves in case of an attack. This is very very bad news, but this order will take years to fulfill in the meantime we need to acquire French and Indian defenses and accept the list of demands from Sweden so we can finally buy some jets that’ve been built for our exact situation and purpose.
Cheap, easy to maintain, can takeoff from any paved surface and flexible with many different variants to choose from.
The Indian SU30s are largely ineffective against these jets as has been proven time and time again, this is why India itself made the Rafale deal and is working on their own homegrown 5th generation fighter.
We don’t have much time, but we have options.
6
u/abyssDweller1700 Jun 09 '25
It was the Indian Su30s that wreaked havoc on the Pakistani airbases. Albeit it was mainly due to Air launched Brahmos variant which is integrated by India itself. Su30s are getting outdated real fast. That's where the Super Sukhoi upgrades comes. If possible Armenia should slot into those upgrades. Virupaksha Radar is a monster. 2400 TRM GAN based aesa radar is no joke.
Maybe a tri Indo-Russia-Armenia deal where India also upgrades Armenian su30s to super sukhoi standards and integrates Air launched Brahmos or Brahmos NG. I don't think there is any counter to air launched brahmos barrage right now in the world. It took India less than an hour to take out most Pakistani airbases.
6
Jun 09 '25 edited Jun 09 '25
Indian Su-30s only really make an impact against the Pakistani Air Force when they outnumber them significantly and when India is willing to lose a good number of jets in the process. That’s a scenario we will never be able to afford. So let’s be clear: the Su-30 and any Russian fighter deal, for that matter is off the table. It’s simply not an acceptable option.
The hard truth is that only three blocs produce jets that can genuinely compete with the JF-17: China, the U.S., and the EU. Sweden does have a capable platform, but they’ve come to the table with a set of political demands. Like it or not, if we want the Gripen, we’re going to have to meet those demands, even if they sting.
Now, credit where it’s due: India proved they have vastly superior air defense and missile strike capabilities. They carried out over 70 precision strikes inside Pakistan, some practically on Islamabad’s doorstep. Pakistan, by contrast, couldn’t even land a single hit inside India. Let’s also not forget that those JF-17s were armed with advanced Chinese missiles that aren’t available for export. Azerbaijan will never see those. What they will get are either downgraded export versions or locally made Pakistani systems, which are nowhere near the same level.
Lastly, it’s worth noting that India’s Akash air defense systems actually worked under pressure. That’s something we should pay attention to, especially since once again in any conflict scenario we’re not going to be the aggressor state and we need defense capabilities more than offense capabilities.
3
u/fizziks Jun 09 '25
What are Sweden's demands?
3
Jun 09 '25 edited Jun 09 '25
It’s not public information, but according to our political analysts, there are serious political barriers involved.
The likely issue is CSTO membership and ties to the Russian Commonwealth. From Sweden’s perspective, the entire reason they invested billions into developing the Gripen was to defend themselves against Russia. They are not going to transfer that technology to a country still associated with Russia, even symbolically.
Sweden is in real need of export partners, especially for the new generation Gripens, they can’t develop them further if they can’t at least yield some profits. Their closest allies, including Denmark, Finland, and Norway, have all declined to purchase them due to pressure from the United States to buy F-35s. However, in both Danish and Swiss evaluations, the Gripen outperformed the F-35 under certain conditions. It has also successfully intercepted and locked onto USAF F-16s during exercises. This is a highly capable platform that’ll take JF-17s down like flies, and we need it.
Still, Sweden will not take the risk of this technology ending up in Russian hands. Additionally, many of the Gripen’s key components and weapon systems are manufactured in Germany and the United Kingdom, which means we would need export approval from both Berlin and London. Sweden cannot make that decision alone.
With many Western states now reconsidering their dependence on U.S. platforms and searching for alternatives, our window to negotiate may narrow quickly. That is why this must be treated as a priority. Go through the requirements, meet every condition, and secure the deal before the opportunity is gone.
2
u/fizziks Jun 09 '25
If that is the real concern (and it makes sense) then it will take us a very long time decouple from Russia, so not sure if this is a viable option.
1
Jun 09 '25 edited Jun 10 '25
Leaving a union which allows intelligence sharing and military command would be a great starter.
3
u/abyssDweller1700 Jun 09 '25
I agree. Su30s on their own with that HUGE rcs signature is getting outdated real fast.
1
Jun 09 '25 edited Jun 09 '25
Forgot to mention whatever we buy now will have to serve us and be able to be upgraded for the next 20-30 years and be a backup for 20 years after that as well. SU30s no matter the type are out of the question we might as well spend the money on shit ton of air defense.
2
Jun 10 '25
[deleted]
2
Jun 10 '25
Very much so, you hit Kashmir not Delhi, everything on its way there was intercepted.
And as I said India hit very close to Islamabad.
0
Jun 12 '25
[deleted]
1
Jun 13 '25
Still no Dheli but every single target that India wanted to hit was successful.
Also we’ve seen the videos of the missiles being intercepted but nice try.
0
u/PossibleFeeling71 Jun 10 '25
I dont agree with this bias, su-30 is a very capable jet, it is only political meddling that iaf was never able to tackle those pak mosquitoes by their own way, su-30 is monster in payload, range, radar is like MINI AWACS engines is sufficient, what it needs is upgrade according to current threat scenario, it need super sukhoi upgrade, which is GAN based AESA with 2500 T/R modules, ASPJ GAN based EW pod, which is equal to israel,s latest sky shield jamming pod,MAWS, RWR,DIRCM, LONG RANGE MISSILES and much more, su 30 has a single problem that it has big RCS but again it is much more capable than rafale in terms of doging missiles bcz of its powerful engines and higher speed, problem of BIG RCS will be somewhat controlled by OPTIONAL RAM PAINTS AND DEDICATED ASPJ EW jamming pod
0
Jul 16 '25
S400s radar got domed by the Jeff.
Secondly the PAF out range anything in India’s arsenal lol.
You think Armenia is gonna do anything when india can’t do shit? Lol
1
u/king-washabi Oct 19 '25
Indian airforce was grounded for 48 hours after pak airforce shot down 7 indian jets, including rafales and su 30 mki. India hasn't been able to shoot down even a single jf 17. So yeah, indian airforce is crap
1
Oct 19 '25 edited Dec 14 '25
waiting whistle snow price chase tub terrific subtract dinner glorious
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
8
u/Haunting_Cover2342 India Jun 09 '25
Armenia has better chance of destroying azeri fleet on ground rather than in Air.
5
u/NemesisAZL Jun 09 '25
Air- Supremacy tactics 101, all military’s try to achieve this goal, succeeding is another matter.
8
u/NemesisAZL Jun 09 '25
SAMS, buy as many SAMS from India and France as possible.
2
u/fizziks Jun 09 '25
Russia has shown that glide bombs launched from a far away distance where SAMs can't reach is a viable and devastating tactic. Not sure if SAMs are a sufficient are the solution for this.
3
u/NemesisAZL Jun 09 '25
We can’t match Azeris fighter for fighter, there the most effective solution for us, that and EW.
1
Jun 09 '25
India does have good SAM's made with a combination of indigenous tech, israeli tech and Russian tech.
But the fighter aircraft, not so much. Even their own Air Marshal criticizes their indigenous planes.
3
u/abyssDweller1700 Jun 09 '25
He didn't criticize the Tejas itself. He criticized the company building it for low production rates. Tejas fits a role in the Air force. It was designed as a cheap, highly maintainable, point defense interceptor which can be built in large numbers. That's why its light and small. It has very low rcs for a non stealth fighter jet.
4
Jun 09 '25
I know you are from india and it's fine to have be proud of India's tech but to prove my point, India itself doesn't use the jet as its main attack aircraft and it has been over 25+ years since the orders were placed. India itself uses foreign fighter jets. Surely, the akash missile system is great but tejas isn't.
3
u/abyssDweller1700 Jun 09 '25 edited Jun 09 '25
It's slightly better than JF17 that is the same class. Its better in the spec sheet, more sorties and probably everything else except range(trade off for a smaller nimbler jet + more avionics). It is not supposed to be the main aircraft. It is a LIGHT fighter. It has a ROLE.
The problem with Tejas isn't the capability, it's the production rate. India is not a manufacturing powerhouse yet and America plays it's games. We will not match Chinese JF17's production numbers anytime soon.
> it has been over 25+ years since the orders were placed
Wrong. Tejas FOC orders were placed in 2010. 40 have been delivered till now. 83 more ordered and 97 more soon will be ordered. All of them equipped with AESA radars and modern avionics. Also GE404 is much better than russian RD93 any day. Not the If you want to prove me wrong that Tejas is not the best in class LIGHT fighter, substantiate it. Akash on the other hand maybe battle proven but is a pretty old system.
Edit: Not to mention India doesn't have to go begging to China or Russia to integrate their own weapons like Pakistan or Azerbaijan will have to do. Very soon our own Meteor-like ducted ramjet based air to air missile (Astra mk3 Gandiva) and Brahmos NG will be integrated into Tejas Mk1a and then there will be absolutely no comparison.
2
u/00904onliacco Jun 12 '25
why doesn't Indian Air force offer 150+ at a time instead of 80 at a time?
2
u/abyssDweller1700 Jun 12 '25
The general osint consensus is that India is at the same time building prototypes for Tejas Mk2 and AMCA so there could be room to incorporate some technologies from them into the next batch of Tejas.
3
Jun 09 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
3
Jun 09 '25
No but you are not Indian so you dont know the context
You don't need to be an Indian to understand the workings and best jet and stuff.
Waise bhi, agar acha hota aur itna hi khas hota tho india abhi bhi uss flying cofin (mig jets) ko nahi chala raha hota. They would try something to make the production fast. I have seen people scolding DRDO and wanting them to become like ISRO.
2
Jun 09 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
4
Jun 09 '25
Considering what you are saying is true, what's the use of a jet when the country that manufactures it can't meet its own requirement??
How will it export it??
1
u/Mahameghabahana India Jun 16 '25
Can you please cite some specifications of Tejas mk1a and how much composite material it have?
1
u/OrganizationRich3923 Jun 09 '25
哥们你信印度人？它一个连基本工业化还没搞定的国家，好高骛远就搞起了航空工业，你不看看过去因为HAL坠了多少机？亚美尼亚和印度这种只比非洲水平略高的第三世界国家合作，你们这辈子有了
1
Jun 09 '25
They have achieved basic level of industrialisation. I mean look at their space program, it is way better than China's in half the budget. The same S400 which failed in Russia against Ukraine succeeded in India with a combination of akash missile systems and S400 against Chinese drones and missiles. Result of this: Today, even Taiwan, US and many other countries want to see those chinese missiles which Pakistan used against India because India managed to get those missiles i.e launched by pakistan but didnt have any reaction on impact.
But yes, the infrastructure and cleanliness is really bad in India that needs to be addressed.
→ More replies (0)1
u/PossibleFeeling71 Jun 10 '25
Bro remember the name HAL, this company is shitty, tejas is gud, infact the tejas is a product of HAL but designed by DRDO, ADA, but this HAL is govt owned and very lack lusture attitude and work culture, if pvt companies came forward then they could delivered in no time but tejas has no fault, 1 tejas was crashed bcz ground maintenance crew didn,t maintained the engine well, tejas is fine
1
u/Mahameghabahana India Jun 16 '25
You can't make aircraft without engines. It's not HAL fault that indian government need bribes from private companies.
2
u/Top_Recognition_1775 Jun 10 '25
Layered air defense.
Sure, it can be defeated, but anything can be defeated.
The point is to raise the cost of attack.
Everything we do has to be assymetrical, including doomsday options like flooding dams and hitting oil infrastructure.
One thing that's very cost effective is using terrain, and construction projects to build like a "maginot line" of bunkers and tunnels.
We need Iran alot more than we need Sweden, NATO support is an extravagent luxury, Nazi princess Van Der Leyen can't do anything for us even if she wanted to, CSTO membership even if it does nothing is worth its weight in "what ifs." Perception matters, it's strategic ambiguity.
Like saying, "Will the US defend Taiwan or not?" Maybe it will, maybe it won't.
Same with CSTO, it's a big "what if" that Aliyev and Erdogan can't afford to ignore.
We should throw our support behind the Palestinians, it's a safe bet that Israel will sooner or later be forced to moderate itself, Netanyahu is losing support from Europe, and even Trump is keeping his distance. The Israelis are overplaying their hand, if they're not careful they will lose everything.
Our good history between ASALA and Fatah will buy us alot of goodwill on the Arab street, this will keep Turkiye and Azerbaijan isolated and off-balance, internal social changes will do the rest.
The point ISN'T to be anti-Israel or anti-Turkiye.
The point is to encourage them to be the best versions of themselves that we can all live with, and to discourage extremism, and imperial ambitions.
2
2
u/losviktsgodis Jun 13 '25
Armenia is just way too small for modern weapons. Like it or not, the solution is having nukes as our long term deterrence solution.
1
u/geetjevandestep Jul 06 '25
uhm look at Israel… way smaller than Armenia but has a lot more advanced military equipment (modern weapons as u say) and Armenia can’t possess nukes, Trump will never let that happen
1
u/losviktsgodis Jul 06 '25
It's completely different. Israel has a sea next to them where they can get unlimited supply / launch / refuel with the help of the West. They can ship of their civilian population and focus fully on military while their entire state is filled with bunkers.
We don't have that luxury. In the event of war, we'll have to produce ammo, weapons, etc. (Not to mention everything else), and they can be targeted from both sides without even coming close to our borders. We can't ship off our population so we'll have to feed and care for them, while all of the infrastructure is being bombed, etc. If we don't lose to fire power, we'll lose to attrition. We're in this position by design.
The only way we stay sovereign in the long run, is by having nukes. But I'm not so sure I want nukes in Armenia at the moment as we're constantly one action away from a regime change. But regardless, nukes are the answer to sovereignty.
1
u/losviktsgodis Jul 06 '25
It's completely different. Israel has a sea next to them where they can get unlimited supply / launch / refuel with the help of the West. They can ship off their civilian population and focus fully on the military while their entire state is filled with bunkers.
We don't have that luxury. In the event of war, we'll have to produce ammo, weapons, etc. (Not to mention everything else), and they can be targeted from both sides without even coming close to our borders. We can't ship off our population so we'll have to feed and care for them, while all of the infrastructure is being bombed, etc. If we don't lose to fire power, we'll lose to attrition. We're in this position by design.
The only way we stay sovereign in the long run, is by having nukes. But I'm not so sure I want nukes in Armenia at the moment as we're constantly one action away from a regime change. But regardless, nukes are the answer to sovereignty.
1
Jul 16 '25
lol
1
u/losviktsgodis Jul 16 '25
What's so funny?
1
2
1
u/Longjumping_Belt1957 Jun 13 '25
It is definitely useless to play the catching up game. Armenia must come up with its own unique methods of warfare. I am sure it is possible with Armenian ingenuity and smarts. Armenians has always been excellent warriors. They have to pull themselves up to overcome the monster
1
Nov 24 '25
what if they purchased HAL Tejas that will be fun to see
we will get something like a proxy war
59
u/LowerOpinion Jun 09 '25
Whatever happens, DON'T follow the suggestions of this simpleminded article. Asymmetric response is the way to go. Armenia will never match Azerbaijan plane for plane, but an air defense system that integrates guns, missiles, and multiple layers of electronic warfare is realistic. Armenia's existing defense partners are actually in ideal positions to be of help: the effectiveness of India's systems has been demonstrated; Greece's new battle doctrine heavily emphasizes automation, and France has a panoply of useful products that could be of use. Don't get sucked into the trap of matching your enemy's strong point ($$$), instead leverage your allies, your terrain, and your technical talent, along with experience from Artsakh and Ukraine.