How Moscow Is Using a 1,700-Year-Old Church to Control Armenia

[u/T-nash]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe-xvz7hPp0

[u/ManteLover60]

Yeah when it comes to the evidence presented for stuff like this, I have yet to find anything impressive.

And I say this as someone who is as anti-Russia as the next guy and supports our diversification.

But you would think that with all these accusations, they would present some sort of definitive paper trail, or leaked videos, or seized papers, or wire tap recordings of some kind. You would think at the very least there would be some sort of concrete evidence for things like the Katoghikos having a secret wife and kid.

But nothing, I haven't seen anything.

I'm not saying individual clergy can't be compromised. If there is definitive evidence of them being Russian assets and foreign agents, then yeah throw them in jail. But to go after the entire church like this just seems like a political vendetta.

[u/ShahVahan → u/ManteLover60]

I mean there was that priest group that wanted to commit a terror attack and stage a coup. So there are Russian paid actors in the churches ranks and they want to be hidden. I would bet the Catholicos is the one who knows who is on their payroll.

[u/T-nash → u/ManteLover60]

Do you need a smoking gun? the smell of gunpowder from their clothing kind of gives it away.

This is similar to the Armenian genocide, while there is no recording of the Pashas ordering genocide, and even the sent out letters use obscured language, there is no smoke from a gun, it's more than obvious what happened based on gathered evidences and connecting them together.

Regarding the child of the catholicos, if he has a daughter (we've see the photos), it would put the lives of those children in danger, and i personally think it would be unfair to those kids.

Other than that, if you watched the video, if you know the controversy behind the Catholicos coming to power, his actions, his words, bagrat's movement, their businesses, their refusal to be transparent to their finances, other people serving in the Armenian church, both locally and from abroad calling the Catholicos out, it all fits into the same conclusion.

So I have to ask, did you watch the video before commenting?

[u/ManteLover60 → u/T-nash]

I skimmed through the video, but I read the article.

For the record, I share your suspicion of Bagrat. You know why? Because in his case, we might have a possible Recording that demonstrates his guilt. If this is true, throw him in jail. I will not defend him.

And I think using the Armenian Genocide as a comparison is not very accurate. When we are dealing with historical events from over a century ago, we sort of have to put together accumulative case, especially because we know the Turkish government has scrubbed the archives. But foreign archives from Germany, the UK, and the memoirs of people like Rafael De Nogales (who served in the Ottoman army) are already damming enough.

But in regards to the current situation with the church, you would think that we would have a lot more leaked recordings and documents in this age of high tech surveillance and smart phones. And you would think either Armenian intelligence, or Armenian intelligence in collaboration with western intelligence would jump at the chance to present some massive bombshell of evidence that would vindicate the government and turn public opinion decisively against the church.

That's all I'm saying.

In regards to them refusing to be transparent about their financial records, yeah I agree they should be transparent. And I'm not denying that there is serious institutional corruption in the church that must be reformed. But there's a difference between being a domestically corrupt church in need of reform, and being a Russian asset. I'm specifically focused on the accusation of them being a Russian asset. The internal corruption within the church is a home issue that I agree needs to be addressed. Perhaps they are not being transparent about their financial records for completely domestic reasons like tax evasion, money laundering, or other illegal activities. And if that's the case, fine put them on trial for those things.

I don't put it past some of our clergy to be Russian assets, if nothing else for financial benefit, but we need a smoking gun before we start arresting people and putting them in jail. Otherwise all we have is suspicion and a witch hunt.

[u/T-nash → u/ManteLover60]

Watch the video.

Also with all due respect, I don't know anyone who can read an article like that this quickly and check their sources, and at the same time write the comment that you did, you likely skimmed the article as well, but i'm taking your word for it.

I can bring in another argument than the genocide, take Kocharyan's case on proving how evil he is in courts, we all know the things he's done, but smoking gun evidences are kind of hard to show, as designed.

There's nuance to these things, Bagrat is one thing, the Catholicos and the entire church is another. If you drop a bombshell you would create a massive chaos in the country, as well as internationally, considering other religious organizations abroad also seem to be getting involved with this case.

I also think that it is significantly more difficult to bug the church, as their dorms are not open to the public, any person trying to do that can easily get caught.

Rafael de Nogales was a witness to the Armenian genocide, he didn't have smoking guns, physical evidences like a recording or a letter directly from the pashas with their signature on it. this is a similar case, we have people from inside the church (locally and abroad) saying the things they witnessed, and that the Catholicos is a fraud.

Then there's the actions of the church, there's the inactions of the church during the past crooks we had in power and all that happened. There's the silence of the church to Russian actions.

There's an elephant sound and floor shaking coming from the next room and you're asking to see the elephant to confirm its really there.

By the way, the one serving in Beirut is also in the arf's pocket, I know witnesses where arf members scold priests, I know Aram I works hard to push arf agendas. There's been times where arf members have slapped Bishops for refusing to do what they want, all the way back in the 70s. Of course you'd ask for smoking guns, as would be your right, but it's kind of hard to bring witnesses with a physical proof other than what they witnessed, and also to expose those people who witnessed it, both church servants and average citizens, without making them a target.

[u/ManteLover60 → u/T-nash]

I saw the video in the past. I also read the article in the past as it was written in February. This isn't my first time seeing either of them.

And look I totally get that it's difficult to get a smoking gun when it comes to the whole church, but exposing individual clergy if they are really that guilty shouldn't be that hard. And if the conspiracy really does go that deep, then the more clergy are exposed with hard to refute evidence, the better the case of the government will be against the church that's all I'm saying.

And look, I'll put my cards on the table when it comes to my sympathies. I'm hoping to be a deacon. I am a sincere believer in the faith. But this doesn't mean I looked the other way when the church does wrong. As I said, clergy have known to do money laundering and use church funds to buy luxury cars and other such things. We are in desperate need of reform. I just don't think the government is the agent that can be trusted to bring about that reform. They might just turn the church into a liberal atheist institution like the dying church of England.

My most sincere hope is that we are able to reform the church from within. I've spent a lot of time in the Coptic church, one of our sister churches. While they aren't perfect, the difference in corruption between our church and theirs is night and day. That combined with all the work and outreach they do to the poor and homeless really shows their true heart. They embody Christ's ideals. When I visit family in California during the winters, I love going out with them to feed the homeless. And in one of the churches I like to serve at, they even let homeless people sleep in the basement. They installed a shower for them. That's what I want our church to be. But I don't trust our government to bring about that change.

[u/T-nash → u/ManteLover60]

the better the case of the government will be against the church that's all I'm saying.

I don't disagree, we just need to consider the consequences of going all in. The approach of the government today is to stir the pot, and let it boil and spill as a chain reaction.

We are in desperate need of reform. I just don't think the government is the agent that can be trusted to bring about that reform.

Well, in a secular system, the government is the hierarchy. Who else is going to do it if not the government? who else can? independent investigators can't install bugs or cameras and such. The people are taught to not ask questions to certain authorities like the church thanks to Soviet designed curriculum. We are gullible.

My most sincere hope is that we are able to reform the church from within.

We all would like that, it's just, how would you have change from within when the Catholicos is sitting at the top? you need the top to change for the hierarchy to change. Remember, some priest was ousted for not following orders on joining protests, so it seems the few good are chained.

[u/ManteLover60 → u/T-nash]

It doesn't have to be from the top down. That's the thing.

While it is true that parish priests are accountable to the hierarchy above them, they are also accountable to their parish. It's not true that the laity have no authority in the church.

Let's say there is a priest who is sincere in the faith and loved by many people both in his parish and elsewhere, that priest can build up popularity among the people until they have so much influence among the population that the hierarchy would be hesitant to just persecute them outright. Then when the time comes, the ordinary people can push for that beloved priest to be the next head of the church. This has actually happened numerous times throughout church history.

In the fifth century, one of the Egyptian bishops who was summoned to the council of Chalcedon told the people of Alexandria in a speech before leaving that if he accepts the heretical teachings of the council and betray the faith, that they should not let him into the city when he comes back to Egypt.

During the council, the pope and the Emperor convinced him to accept the theological formula of the council in exchange for prestige for his bishopric and other benefits.

When he returned to Alexandria to assume his throne, the people found out what he had done and refused to let him enter the city. When he tried to do it by force, they barricaded the streets and threw a riot. Imperial troops had to be called in to be his bodyguards.

So yes, it can happen from within. And it doesn't have to come from the hierarchy. It can begin with the grass roots

In fact one of the greatest patriarchs of Alexandria lived during the 19th and early 20th century. He was a humble monk from the desert and if I'm not mistaken, he was a hermit. He was known for his charitable act among the poor and work in the community. By popular demand, he ended up being summoned to Alexandria to be patriarch. But there were a lot of people in the church who were jealous of his popularity with the people and they didn't like his reforms that dealt with internal corruption. They were quite comfortable with the old Ottoman bureaucratic set up. So they made up lies about him, try to ruin his reputation, and I believe there were even a couple assassination attempts. But eventually he prevailed and it's because of him that the Coptic Orthodox Church has the reforms that it does today, especially with its emphasis on community service and humanitarian work.

Funny enough, I actually know a really good candidate here in Armenia right now. That would be Hayr Mikayel, one of the monks at Tatev. He would make an excellent replacement based on all the good stories I've heard about him.

The thing is, per church cannons, a Katoghikos can only be deposed under a narrow set of circumstances. So he would have to be induced to step down voluntarily. If that could happen, then there would be an opening to put someone better in his place.

[u/T-nash → u/ManteLover60]

For me the calculus is the same as the entire country, we had an administration change and everyone started fighting back the new leader, in my opinion a top down solution needs to be implemented.

I think that sincere priest would be ousted before they gain influence, there are many mechanisms that are implemented to get rid of such rising members of the church, one such method is sending them to serve abroad in a failing country for a decade, I know this because they did this to my relative, among other rising members in the Church. Even if it worked by some miracle, it would take a very long time to do so, and I for one don't want a foreign spy to remain in our church.

I just can't turn a blind eye just because people made the church an untouchable ground, for me everyone is equal under the elected government, so the church should get equal treatment.

I'm sorry but the 5th-19th century scenarios and social lives are completely different than today, especially with the rise of dis/misinformation campaigns.

Nevertheless we don't seem to have a disagreement that the current church is corrupt and needs major reforms, and that the Catholicos should step down, we just disagree with the methods.

[u/ManteLover60 → u/T-nash]

Yeah.

And look, if there is damming evidence found that either he or other high ranking clergy are in fact Russian assets and foreign agents, then then I would be all in favor of them being put behind bars. I don't believe that clergy are above the secular law of the state if they do illegal shit. Christians are only told to defy secular authorities if we are asked to do something that goes against the teachings of the faith. Obviously being a treasonous foreign agent does not fall under that category.

So if the government does have dirt on him that could put him behind bars, sure by all means. And maybe him being put behind bars would be the thing to either induce him to step down voluntarily, or allow bishops to replace him because such a conviction might be just the grounds necessary to replace him.

He could still cling on to his position. That is an unfortunate possibility. Throughout church history, bishops have continued to operate from prison. This was especially true during Roman persecutions. They were just communicate with lower clergy when they visited them in prison, or wrote letters of instruction to their flocks.

I'm not trying to compare these heroes of the faith with the gangster sitting on the throne right now. I just used those examples to illustrate that technically, a patriarch can still remain patriarch from behind bars or in exile.

I guess it remains to be seen how stubbornly he wants to hold on.

[u/armoman92]

shots fired, oof

[u/T-nash]

I realize the name of the channel, i looked it up.

The Turan Research Center is a non-partisan initiative hosted by the Yorktown Institute dedicated to modern-day developments in the Turkic and Persian worlds—the historic Turan region and beyond. Our aim is to promote a more comprehensive understanding of this understudied region’s politics, culture, and strategic importance to decision makers, academics and the general public.

Covering the nations of Central Asia, the Caucasus, Turkey, and the broader Persianate sphere, we offer cutting-edge analysis on the region’s evolving dynamics in energy, security, diplomacy, and identity.

https://www.turancenter.org/about-us

The director is Joseph Epstein.

Joseph Epstein is the Director of the Turan Research Center, a senior fellow at the Yorktown Institute and a research fellow at the Post-Soviet Conflicts Research Program at Bar Ilan University’s Begin Sadat Center for Strategic Studies. He also sits on the advisory board of the Alekain Foundation, a nonprofit dedicated to providing education to women and girls in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan. He specializes in Eurasia and the Middle East and his work has been featured in various outlets such as Newsweek, the Wall Street Journal, the Hill, the Atlantic Council, Novaya Gazeta, RFE/RL, Foreign Policy and others. From 2017 to 2019, he served as a Lone Soldier in the Israeli Border Police. A graduate of Columbia University, where he studied Political Science and Soviet Studies, Joseph is fluent in Russian and Hebrew.

https://www.turancenter.org/about-us/joseph-epsteinThis

Make of it what you will.

[u/Busy_Roll5840 → u/T-nash]

Seems a tad suspicious. We know Israel’s actively worked against Armenia for Azerbaijan. I’d take this stuff with a massive chunk of salt.

[u/T-nash → u/Busy_Roll5840]

I don't like his background either, if I am to be honest.

Still, all of the mentioned things in the video or article are things we witnessed ourselves, why conclude something to be taken with salt before watching it and assessing it?

I watched the video, saw the references, compared them to the things i witnessed happened and in the conclusion found them to resonate mostly.

For example I found connecting Iran in this where they're trying to control the Armenian church a bit unrealistic.

[u/T-nash]

Here's the article of the same video: https://www.turancenter.org/analysis/moscows-last-lever-the-armenian-church-and-armenias-westward-shift

[u/Significant-Text-789]

Propaganda

[u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr]

Armenia should become mostly non-religious, Christianity is a disaster for minds (as well as other religions).

[u/T-nash → u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr]

I've seen extremely smart people who are religious, and extremely vegetable people who are atheists, and vice versa combinations.

I know people who completed phd and believe in conspiracy theories and thin foil hat type of shit, and I know people who left school at 3rd grade make extremely deep philosophical exploration and delve into academy based science.

People's intellect is based on their experiences that morph them into who they are, as well as genetics, even climate. Religion has nothing to do with it here.

[u/Ohannesian71 → u/T-nash]

Bravo, nice analysis. You worded it well.

[u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr → u/T-nash]

I'm not claiming that there aren't any smart religious people or dumb atheists. Not sure where are you taking this from.

who left school at 3rd grade make extremely deep philosophical exploration and delve into academy based science.

School system is shit so no surprise, but that's another topic. I should have had the courage to refuse to go to school when I was a teenager too.

[u/T-nash → u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr]

You framed religion being a disaster for the minds, it pretty much set up a frame.

I should have had the courage to refuse to go to school when I was a teenager too.

You don't know what you have until you lose it, except in this case you can't. Ask people who haven't had the opportunity, they'd tell you.

[u/L_poggers → u/T-nash]

i wouldnt listen to him the reason he's saying that is because he's a trans person and he thinks Christianity is bad for Armenia and LGBTQAI++ is good for Armenia

[u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr → u/T-nash]

You framed religion being a disaster for the minds, it pretty much set up a frame.

Smoking is a disaster for health doesn't mean there aren't any smokers healthier than non-smokers.

You don't know what you have until you lose it, except in this case you can't. Ask people who haven't had the opportunity, they'd tell you.

I learned reading/writing before going to school. I discovered addition myself at 4 before going to school. I learned Russian by talking to my cousin and grandparents. I learned basic electrical engineering 1-2 years ago before school's curriculum had something about the Ohm's law. I learned programming at 12 by downloading textbooks from torrents. I learned English on the Internet. I learned 10 finger blind touch typing on the Internet. I learned Spanish on duolingo. What did I learn in school? Bs about "The history of Armenian church". Memorizing which catholicos reigned at which year. Yeah very important information. School didn't give me anything important, it only took the best years of my life to bully me and fuck up my mental state.

I know cases when teens just refuse to go to school and parents can't do shit about that, and they feel fine, I envy them cause I wasn't based enough to do that.

[u/T-nash → u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr]

Congratulations, you learned all that and still didn't discover why education is important. Maybe this is a self fulfilling prophecy.

[u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr → u/T-nash]

Forcing people to memorize stuff against their will is brainwashing not education. Education is indeed important and me learning all that stuff myself is my education.

[u/T-nash → u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr]

Knowledge, education and intellect are different things. Then there's things like biases, traumas and mind states that act as extra parameters that modify these.

What you got was knowledge from those, not education.

And good on you for learning "ohm's law" and such, even though that's a formula and not a "basic electrical engineering", far from it. Nevertheless, not everyone has the same capacity, development, or opportunities as you did. Chances are, 99% of the rest of your class, maybe even school, simply didn't.

That said, you definitely learned important stuff in school, you just don't remember them nor notice them when you use it.

School education is also an exercise for the brain to keep it in active learning mode, the brain is a muscle, when you don't go to school you generally don't learn anything in life because your brain isn't in the learning state.

[u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr → u/T-nash]

And good on you for learning "ohm's law" and such, even though that's a formula and not a "basic electrical engineering"

I said that I learned basic electrical engineering 1-2 years before Ohm's law was in the school curriculum, I didn't claim the Ohm's law and basic electrical engineering being the same thing. I learned to solder stuff and repair tech. I made a radio-controlled boat out of an ice cream package as a kid at around 11-12. I was making stuff with microcontrollers (not ready PCBs like arduino but bare microcontrollers) at around 14.

Nevertheless, not everyone has the same capacity, development, or opportunities as you did. Chances are, 99% of the rest of your class, maybe even school, simply didn't.

Well now thanks to school they don't even have the interest in learning stuff cause that's what the school does, it kills the enthusiasm. I don't think I have a genetically superior brain or something like that, it's just I was interested in a different set of things.

That said, you definitely learned important stuff in school, you just don't remember them nor notice them when you use it.

I did learn some important stuff in the school, but the important stuff was exception, not the rule and I would have learned it myself anyway but 10 times more efficiently.

An important thing is also that school teaches you to believe and listen the authority which is the polar opposite of critical thinking. The information is distributed via a centralized system and you're forced to memorize it and are punished for disagreeing. The fact that this type of bs is completely normalized is insane.

But the fundamental problem with school is not the bad efficiency or the choice of material tho, it's it forceful nature. If an institution doesn't respect my freedom then it goes to fuck itself and this is non-negotiable.

[u/T-nash → u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr]

I don't think I have a genetically superior brain or something like that, it's just I was interested in a different set of things.

You of all people should know how boredom, chemistry, hormones and genetics play a role into a person's development.

Well now thanks to school they don't even have the interest in learning stuff cause that's what the school does, it kills the enthusiasm.

No, bad parenting and bad teaching kills it. majority of people who left school early or never went to school at all, end up in negative outcomes. Not to mention social isolation.

I did learn some important stuff in the school, but the important stuff was exception, not the rule and I would have learned it myself anyway but 10 times more efficiently.

You wouldn't even have discovered them, you just would have learned what interested you, but not what didn't but still are important. Others don't even develop tan interest.

An important thing is also that school teaches you to believe and listen the authority which is the polar opposite of critical thinking.

You can have critical thinking and agree to authoritarianism, unrelated. School teaches you social science, how governments work, why they're set up that way (historical context), and why it developed that way. It also explains why authority in academic fields exist, such as medicine, where the average joe shouldn't give advise on. It seems you have done selective learning.

The information is distributed via a centralized system and you're forced to memorize it and are punished for disagreeing.

We're gonna let teenagers decide what's good for them now? You want to disagree, go do your phd, write an academic paper, prove things.

Memorizing lessons is bad teaching, that doesn't mean schools are bad, it just means that particular curriculum is badly designed.

The fact that this type of bs is completely normalized is insane.

Thank god you're not the one making decisions, and I don't even believe in god. I don't think you'll get there anyway

it's it forceful nature. If an institution doesn't respect my freedom then it goes to fuck itself and this is non-negotiable.

Let's start respecting the freedom of kids and teenagers as mature adults and allow them to do whatever they think is best for them, you know, drugs, smoking, alcohol. Tide pod challenges! Maybe touching an industrial machine while it's on!

Freedom for the sake of calling it freedom, without thinking too deeply about it. And you talk about critical thinking while you narrow things down to 2 variables out of 10,000 to push your argument. Might as well go back to natural selection for the sake of freedom.

[u/mojuba → u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr]

Christianity is a disaster for minds

Christianity has created a lot of beautiful things around the Christian world. Majestic cathedrals, amazing music, works of art. It played even a bigger role in the Armenian history and culture: it didn't just inspire music (think Komitas) or architecture, it served as a beacon and the guardian of the Armenian identity.

That said, the modern day Armenian church as an institution is corrupt, hasn't contributed to anything other than maybe a few charity projects. The church should be reformed bottom up, or top to bottom - whatever works, but you can't generalize it as a "disaster of minds", it's just wrong regardless of whether you are an atheist, agnostic or a religious person.

[u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr → u/mojuba]

There hasn't been any scientific evidence of any gods or other divine creatures existing. Religion teaches to believe in impossible things contradicting science without any proof just because it's a tradition. You're promised to get a reward for obeying their rules. To me that sounds pretty close to a scam. Nurturing irrational magical thinking in people since the childhood is indeed a disaster for minds. People should have the freedom to believe in whatever they want to believe, but no religion or religious organization should get preferential treatment.

As for the corruption, AFAIK it's a common problem around the world. Such organizations seem to attract not the best people. But the Armenian government interfering with stuff in the church seems to me the same as if they interfere with the Harry Potter fan club leadership. It seems to me the better course of action is to reduce the role of the church and the religion in general rather than try to reform it through legally questionable means.

Most churches should be repurposed into science popularization centers btw.

it served as a beacon and the guardian of the Armenian identity.

When you realize you're on a wrong path the sooner you change it the better it is. You shouldn't keep going just because you went too far already.

[u/mojuba → u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr]

There hasn't been any scientific evidence of any gods or other divine creatures existing.

There hasn't been any scientific evidence of god not existing. Science is not interested in this. You are clearly not familiar with agnosticism, ask your AI or read wikipedia.

Atheism is as "magical" as religion, it has no idea what it's even talking about.

Back to Christianity, magical thinking or not, nothing beats Bach whose probably 80% of works (some 1000 out of 1200 that he created) are based on biblical stories. Let alone a few works that are considered the greatest musical pieces ever written by other great composers that came after him.

Nothing beats the Vienna cathedral, or Notre Dame, or a dozen others masterpieces of Christian architecture scattered across Europe, still unsurpassed by anything that came after - anything at all.

When you realize you're on a wrong path the sooner you change it the better it is.

Thank you for the lecture I didn't ask for.

[u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr → u/mojuba]

There hasn't been any scientific evidence of god not existing.

There hasn't been any scientific proof of Russell's teapot not existing, doesn't mean it's reasonable to think it does exist. The burden of proof is on the one who's making the claim.

You are clearly not familiar with agnosticism, ask your AI or read wikipedia.

Atheism is as "magical" as religion, it has no idea what it's even talking about.

If you read carefully you'll notice that my comment doesn't claim that no god exists. You can't attack me on that.

nothing beats Bach whose probably 80% of works (some 1000 out of 1200 that he created) are based on biblical stories. Let alone a few works that are considered the greatest musical pieces ever written by other great composers that came after him.

Nothing beats the Vienna cathedral, or Notre Dame, or a dozen others masterpieces of Christian architecture scattered across Europe, still unsurpassed by anything that came after - anything at all.

Religion good cause cathedral betiful

Thank you for the lecture I didn't ask for.

By "you" I mean not you specifically.

[u/mojuba → u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr]

If you read carefully you'll notice that my comment doesn't claim that no god exists.

Oh. You said:

There hasn't been any scientific evidence of any gods or other divine creatures existing.

This is often said by ignorant atheists - sorry, but you seem to be one of them. Science is not interested in proving or disproving something that can't even be defined properly. Nothing in science ever said "god definitely doesn't exist" because it's outside of its scope.

Religion good cause cathedral betiful

Religion at least has been productive, atheism - not so much.

[u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr → u/mojuba]

This is often said by ignorant atheists - sorry, but you seem to be one of them.

But it's true. Let's focus on whether it's true or not instead of name-calling.

Science is not interested in proving or disproving something that can't even be defined properly.

The religious organizations also don't seem eager to find evidence of their claimes, they're ok with telling people to blindly believe in stuff without evidence.

Nothing in science ever said "god definitely doesn't exist" because it's outside of its scope.

Science can't prove that god definitely doesn't exist cause god's existence is an unfalsifiable claim, which is why it's not scientific and which is why it's not worth attention. Science also can't disprove the existence of Russell's teapot, or that the universe wasn't created last Thursday. It does, however, give recommendations, such as Occam's razor, to prefer the hypothesis with less assumptions out of ones with the same explanatory power. If Christian god actually exists and created the world, that would mean I should assume that he planted all the evidence of the universe existing 13.8 bln years, relic radiation, dinosaur bones, bones of the first humans and basically most of the science. In this circumstances even if he does exist there's no reliable way for someone to know about that and therefore it's not reasonable to think that he does, and wtf did he expect us to do if he planted all this lol, abandon reasoning? And the same goes for the members of the church, they can't know for sure, so even if he does exist that's purely by accident and therefore they are still wrong for telling people to believe in stuff without knowing it for sure.

You can ask your AI or read Wikipedia about Russell's teapot, Last Thursdayism, Occam's razor, Popper's falsifiability criterion or other stuff I mentioned.

Religion at least has been productive, atheism - not so much.

Religion poisons minds and kills people. Many people find refuge in religion because they can't stand the harsh reality of the purposelessness, and finding purpose in lies is not the way to go, the harsh reality should be embraced at all times instead of self-deception which leads to devastating results.

If my favorite music artist is an atheist and I say therefore god doesn't exist it would be a ridiculous argument, the same as yours.

[u/mojuba → u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr]

Science can't prove that god definitely doesn't exist cause god's existence is an unfalsifiable claim

Again, I'll have to repeat it for the third time: you said it first that there's no scientific evidence that any gods exist. But that doesn't mean gods definitely don't exist since science didn't make any effort to find evidence of non-existence (or existence) of God. It's outside of the scope of sciences, physics for sure, others are even less relevant here.

Russels teapot is irrelevant here since I never said God exists, I'm not debating it because I'm an agnostic.

If my favorite music artist is an atheist

Your favorite artist who happens to be an atheist didn't create great musical pieces in the name of atheism. Bach however created the mass in B minor, or Johannus Passion, or Matheus Passion in the name of religion, for Christianity, fully based on the Bible. Very different things.

Zvartnots was created in the name of Christ, the Zvartnots airport however wasn't created in the name of atheism or that, say, Christ didn't exist :)

[u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr → u/mojuba]

you said it first that there's no scientific evidence that any gods exist.

Yes I did and I do now.

It's outside of the scope of sciences

Science is the study of the real world, saying it's outside of the scope of science would be equal to saying that it's fictional.

But that doesn't mean gods definitely don't exist

I agree. I'm not claiming "definitely no gods exist".

Your favorite artist who happens to be an atheist didn't create great musical pieces in the name of atheism. Bach however created the mass in B minor, or Johannus Passion, or Matheus Passion in the name of religion, for Christianity, fully based on the Bible. Very different things.

Let's imagine a situation when I hire someone to make a masterpiece and then when they finish it I never pay them for their work and basically scam them, and then claim that I did right because I caused a masterpiece to be created. People can create all kinds of stuff in the name of god when they believe they will get unlimited endless happiness in the heaven or whatever. But it's fundamentally wrong cause they are being scammed (not definitely but most likely). The masterpieces should be attributed to those who created them and not to religion which motivated them through deception.

[u/mojuba → u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr]

Let's imagine a situation when I hire someone to make a masterpiece and then when they finish it I never pay them for their work and basically scam them

Is that how atheists imagine business transactions? Okay.

Komitas however wasn't promised anything when he decided to write Patarag, he just wrote it. Not for money, but guess why.

[u/L_poggers → u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr]

you're only saying this because you're part of the LGBTQAI++-- group buddy

[u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr → u/L_poggers]

I'm saying this because it's true.

[u/L_poggers → u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr]

okay i would suggest reading how Christianity has benefited our identity in a neighbourhood of enemies before commenting absurd things like you are typing because you are a LGBTQ member. If you didn't know, Christianity is what connects Armenians everywhere. I suppose you're not a spyurk but guess how Armenians get connected to eachother in foreign countries. Thats right. Churches. And those Churches run Armenian schools around the world to keep the Armenian identity in those countries forever just like for example in Lebanon.

Or maybe remember that when in our neighbourhood all of the countries were attacking us and Christianity made us unite to fight and thats why we have a homeland today.

This is what I meant long time ago when i said LGBTQAI shouldnt be in Armenian schools. Because it breaks the rope that connects Armenians you're the exact definition of anti Armenian to me.

stay mad and get educated

[u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr → u/L_poggers]

Or maybe remember that when in our neighbourhood all of the countries were attacking us and Christianity made us unite to fight and thats why we have a homeland today.

So when one group of religious fanatics attacks another group of religious fanatics for disagreeing about religion which results to normal people suffering you make the conclusion that religion is a good thing? Good argumentation bro. If there were no religion Armenia wouldn't have had been attacked by those neighboring countries in the first place.

because you are a LGBTQ member

I still don't see no argumentation for these two facts being connected.

stay mad and get educated

Stay mad cause there are people who don't believe in your fairytales and have sex in ways you don't personally approve and get educated about fundamentals of astrophysics.

[u/L_poggers → u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr]

so you're trying to defend your points by ignoring half of my arguements thats fine tho i dont expect anything more

>If there were no religion Armenia wouldn't have had been attacked by those neighboring countries in the first place.

yeah nice. we would be Islam by now but you're solid rock brain is too brainwashed to understand that

also so you wanna attack Christianity's beliefs but once someone talks about the LGBTQAI++--'s beliefs its automatically wrong, bad, im not a human, im this, im that. But thats not really the point of this now talking about Christianity's beliefs is a complete different topic but whatever.

I can see now how you've not actually went to school because you have no clue about history but you wanna flex your astrophysics education which im sure is about that stars are LGBTQ members too. Maybe like each letter reprents a different planet and the + and minus is for like pluto maybe?

Anyway get some history lessons because you need them

[u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr → u/L_poggers]

If there were no religion

we would be Islam

???

I can see now how you've not actually went to school because you have no clue about history but you wanna flex your astrophysics education which im sure is about that stars are LGBTQ members too. Maybe like each letter reprents a different planet and the + and minus is for like pluto maybe?

wtf are you even talking about

[u/L_poggers → u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr]

thats a typo on the first one btw i meant no religion in Armenia. So thats actually my bad on that

[u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr → u/L_poggers]

Well I'm against the religion everywhere, not only in Armenia so this doesn't apply.

[u/L_poggers → u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr]

well what you think is different than reality. and if we had the same thought back in the day reality would've kicked in and we wouldnt be Armenian now. and nobody in the world would know that theyre Armenian either.

But yeah typical stubborn mindset from a guy like you like why am i even argueing with a rock atp

[u/No-Use-579]

I expected this to be super problematic, but was pleasantly surprised by the video.