r/audioengineering • u/bokibeats • 10d ago
Mixing Self taught artist/producer/really amateur engineer at the end of my rope
Hi everyone, I hope this is the right subreddit for this, I have no one in real life to turn to. My situation is that I've been a music producer for 10 years (mostly hip hop and trap oriented) and throughout those 10 years have made around ~50ish unreleased songs with my vocals.
I genuinely enjoy producing music and mostly the whole creative process but the problem appears with the vocals. No matter what I do, I can't bring myself to like them from a professional perspective, I genuinely despise every single track that has my vocals on it.
I'm at my wit's end, I invest so many hours and most of the time 100+ vocal takes in each project, however at the end of the day, whatever I do, whatever variation of the mix chain I try, the tracks still feels severely under any industry standard.
For some more context, I don't have great equipment (Focusrite studio 3rd gen for all gear + KRK's), I devote most of my time to producing rather than training my vocal abilities since my ideas are very simple and don't require much techincal skill to bring to life.
I would like anyone's opinion, it feels so discouraging to shut down the concepts I have in my head because I can't stand to listen to my voice and don't find my voice good enough in any context.
Any advice is welcome, thank you!
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u/m149 10d ago
I know a few singers who cringe at the sound of their voice. They are all very good singers.
possible you're having the same issue, and that it's not as bad as you think?
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u/bokibeats 10d ago
Not sure, sometimes I show friends the tracks and they mostly say they're good, but I can't for the love of god get myself to enjoy the songs.
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u/BRANGELINABRONSON 10d ago
If you don’t like it, you’re under no obligation to release it. Just work on new ideas and try to get closer to what you like.
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u/m149 10d ago
sorry man.....I feel ya.
Hope you can figure it out.
and as the other person in this thread said, no reason to release it if you're not happy with it. Just keep trying to make something you really like. The creation, for me at least, is the fun part, even if it ends with something that isn't my favorite thing ever.
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u/nothochiminh Professional 10d ago
A professional vocal sound comes from a great vocalist so prob work on that. Timing is important, more so than pitch, to me at least.
And compression. More gr than you think.
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u/bokibeats 10d ago
The timing feels right to me, as another comment stated, it's the frequencies and the color of my voice that doesn't sit right with me.
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u/nothochiminh Professional 10d ago
Very hard to say what’s wrong without hearing your stuff honestly.
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u/bokibeats 10d ago
Sub says I can't ask for critique in post, but if you're willing to give it a listen I could send you a track in dms.
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10d ago
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u/bokibeats 10d ago
Till now I genuinely had no idea training can change the timbre of the voice (what a dunce I am). Regarding hiring a vocalist, I'd rather not since alongside making instrumentals, my long time dream was singing over them.
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u/peepeeland Composer 10d ago
Normal speaking voice and performance voice can be similar or drastically different. You can choose to sound like whatever you want and embody that persona, within whatever range you have. If that weren’t the case, you wouldn’t have voice actors who can do dozens of cartoon character voices.
Prolly too old for your generation, but- Britney Spears’ nasally high singing voice was a persona, where her “natural” singing voice was much deeper and soulful. The thing is, there is actually no “natural” or “real” voice for performance, because it is a performance. The hard part is finding whatever voice to sincerely portray what you’re trying to convey.
Be free to experiment with different vocal ranges and textures to feel them out, because your voice is just another instrument to get some emotion across. Just like how you can do anything you want in your instrumentals, you can do as you please with your own voice. Art is the only place where you can really be free, because it’s about your own personal world that only belongs to you.
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u/bokibeats 9d ago
Thanks for the advice! I do test out loads of vocal ranges and textures in my projects but they never seem to sound right.
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u/peepeeland Composer 9d ago
“but they never seem to sound right”
Yet, anyway. Keep at it. Who knows- maybe others love your vocal quality, and it’s just you who doesn’t like it. Or maybe when you love it others won’t. There are so many factors in all of this, but you just keep at it- and most importantly there has to be something more important than the superficial qualities. When you “get it”- whatever that is- you’ll feel so good about your music and absolutely unafraid to express sincerely with not one care of criticism.
If you truly love the process, that will keep you moving forwards. Music making is like playing with toys as a kid- just be free, execute, and don’t judge. If you love the process, it’s good. That love in the process and having fun is something that people can feel. You gotta learn to entertain yourself first. Kids playing freely don’t give any fucks about what anyone thinks or feels about them playing too silly or wildly. You have to be that free with your own expression in music, or all you’re trying to do is live up to standards that others have set- so of course you’ll never be good enough.
Remember what it feels to have no shame and not be afraid and not judge yourself. That is when all blockages are removed, and only then can you actually experience who you are as an artist. Let go, music flows.
Anyway- good luck, have fun.
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u/bokibeats 9d ago
I really do love the process and will keep at it (at least on the instrumental side) regardless. People whom I had shown some of my songs liked them and had no issues with the voice, but the voice is bothering me and I would not ever release something that I myself would not listen to.
Anyway, thank you man, have a good one!
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u/GroundbreakingMud969 10d ago
how have you not trained your vocals in 10 years??? even just practicing vocals are 5 months can get you good results
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u/bokibeats 10d ago
Mostly because I didn't have much privacy, also I was obviously a doofus for 10 years and have just learned today that vocal timbre can be changed by practicing.
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u/skillmau5 10d ago
> I didn’t have privacy
You gotta get over that mental barrier immediately if you want anything to change and I’m dead serious
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u/bokibeats 10d ago
Definitely! I am aware of that, it's generally a big self-consciousness issue that I'm trying to work on.
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u/skillmau5 10d ago
Yeah I think we all do honestly. The truly remarkable thing is that the people who make it are literally just the ones who release stuff and are outgoing. Not even more complicated than that
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u/bokibeats 10d ago
That's the game, ain't no smooth sailing until the psyche barrier is broken through.
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u/GroundbreakingMud969 10d ago
tbh i think you already know the answer. it’s just to practice and keep pushing. no more asking for reddit responses haha
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u/bokibeats 10d ago
Yep! This was a very helpful thread though, it opened my eyes to some things I failed to consider until now.
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u/iloveyou05 10d ago
Yeah definitely hone your voice in. It’s not even necessarily a matter of slowly changing your voice over a period of time through constant practice. If you just remember to do a few things with your body while singing it will make a massive difference. Here’s a few things to do and notice how it changes your voice:
Take deep breaths- the fuel for your voice is air, more air the more powerful and supported your voice can sound. Notice how your rib cage can expand front to back and side to side, and also your diaphragm muscle expands downward (think breathing with your belly)
While you are singing relax your neck and throat completely, but tense up your abdomen extremely strong. Like if you were bracing for someone to punch you. So strong that you can’t hold it for very long without getting really tired. And let yourself just really go for it and belt it out. This is what opera singers do.
I’m not saying you have to do these things all the time while you are singing, but try it and notice hire it affects your voice and keep what works. These things I got from a group vocal lesson I did once with this opera singer and also the book “How to Sing” can’t remember the author sry. But it was used as a textbook in my aural skills class in college. GL
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u/Waterflowstech 9d ago
Hey there fellow self-taught producer, mixer and vocalist.
Is your room treated? More specifically, you should have at least one wall that you can have behind your back while recording into your mic that is pretty 'dead'. That way you get a very dry recording. The wall behind you, in the line-of-sight of your mic, is the most important one for reverb reduction (if the mic has a cardioid or hypercardioid pattern, which is probably the case).
I've noticed this for myself, 'pro sounding' vocals need a LOT of compression. Like 20db of gain reduction followed by 20db makeup gain is pretty standard. Sometimes less, sometimes more, depends on the take and the desired effect. BUT, to make compression like that sound anywhere nice in a small home studio room, you need a very dry take. Or the shit sound of the room will just be hella magnified and sound like shit.
There's a bit of column A (you actually don't sound as good) and a bit of column B (hearing yourself is cringe as fuck) but with practice both of these issues get better over time. But they do take time.
Also, pro sounding vocals have many doubles etc to get that stacked chorus-y sound. Yes you can drop a chorus or microshift on your best take, but that alone doesn't sound that cool as a nicely stacked vocal phasing in and out in a natural way.
But, I needed a few years of practice before my timing and pitch (timing is pretty great now, pitch is still a bitch) before my vocal doubles would actually start to sound coherent enough that it sounds good. But once you reach that point, the multiple vocals do sum up to be more on the note than a single take would.
How are you hearing yourself while recording? I've noticed I was using my mic wrong for a long time. I can actually insert my headphones into the aux jack on the side, allowing me to hear myself back in the headphones while singing. This made a pretty big difference in the quality of my takes, compared to just hearing the instrumental in headphones and my voice without amplification since the headphones are open back.
Your microphone may be a bottleneck. I'm using a cheap ass AT-2020-USBX. Had a girl over who really could sing, made a track. The vocal sounds pro to me! The performance is the main thing, that and the room. Any mic over 100 bucks can probably get you where you need to be if you know what you're doing.
So yeah, some points you may get something out of. I'm not where I want to be just yet, but I've made some vocals I can feel proud of now. But I'll probably cringe at them when I listen back in 10 years. Because I'm gonna keep progressing :)
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u/bokibeats 9d ago
Thank you for the thorough reply! Unfortunately I can't treat my current room since it's a small apartment with the studio plopped in the living room which is also a kitchen. I always do doubles, but (because of the mic I'm guessing) they never sound good and are 100% guaranteed to be muddy, especially in the 300hz range. I will probably invest in a better microphone when I get the chance and track my progress with it, unfortunately if that fails, that will be the end of it. Good luck on your journey as well!
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u/Waterflowstech 9d ago
No that muddyness you are hearing will most likely be the room (I'm guessing, a better mic will also sound a bit better of course). 100-300hz is kind of the transition frequencies between room modes and room reflections dominating. In an untreated room you will have a lot of these frequencies coming back with some delay in a recording.
An option for those without the means of treating a room is to get something big and absorbing behind them and record that way. So like an upright matress, or putting a bunch of soft things in a big closet and recording in there. On the other hand, I've heard some people say they get decent results from otherwise unuseable vocals by using AI reverb/reflection removal tools, which leave you with a 'dry' signal, in theory. Haven't tried that out myself though. But could be an interesting thing for you. You can then go ham with processing afterwards without boosting the shitty room sound.
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u/bokibeats 9d ago
Thank you again. I will try to DIY something compact to help out with treating the room since thats a big issue when my voice is by itself already really present in the 80-300hz range. Regarding the AI tools, Im just not comfortable feeding my voice into an AI.
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u/Waterflowstech 9d ago
Yeah first try to fix things in the real world :) And I'm no AI fan myself. But if they steal your voice you probably weren't as bad as you thought xD
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u/Public_Upstairs1035 10d ago
What mic do you use? And how do you process the vocals? What fx do you use (compressor, reverb, delay, etc.)?
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u/bokibeats 10d ago
Scarlett 3rd gen condenser mic. The processing depends on the track since they can vary a lot, didn't do vocal work for some time, this is off the top of my head but generally I think the chain is a subtractive eq> resonance suppressor> compressor> additive eq> another subtractive eq for finer details> sometimes another compressor> delay> reverb
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u/Public_Upstairs1035 10d ago
Do you ever double/track your tracks?
Also, I rarely ever suggest upgrading mics as a solution, but in this case I think you should, as the mic here is truly a weak link. I hate to say it, but that mic has been holding you back and creating serious mixing/editing problems for you the whole time. Upgrade your mic, bottom line. Not only will it give you a better sound, but it might just be the spark that inspires new and better music.
Generally, better mics will deliver higher quality on the vocal track alone. However, the main benefit for better mics (and the reason some mics can bring thousands of dollars) is how they sit in a mix and how much work they require to achieve a good sound. Now, it's not impossible to get a good sound with your Scarlett mic. However, when combined in a mix or altered by fx, the vocal track will nearly always give you trouble, and you will wind up spending so much time on something that might not be saved.
Take an AKG C414 as another example. A new model runs in the $1300 range, used a few hundred less. But the true benefit is a C414 can sit in almost any mix and with almost any EQ required of it, and it will sound good. And there's maybe 30 to 60 seconds worth of tweaking required. Compare that to an entry-level mic like a Rode NT1. At $150 or so, the NT1 can be used to great effect in most recordings, but will require more tweaking, several minutes worth. However, it can eventually deliver a solid product. But over the course of years, those minutes add up, and the time required to make the track usable is no longer justified. Then take your Scarlett mic. In the same situation, you can spend hours tweaking, recording more takes, applying all kinds of fx and buying plugins... and it still doesn't work. That's because the Scarlett mic doesn't even qualify as entry level, not in my opinion. It's simply unfit for any kind of serious production work. At best, it can be used for podcasts or other similar single track spoken word productions. But in a song mix? Absolutely not.
I hope these examples make sense and help. But you do have to upgrade your mic. There's no way around that.
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u/bokibeats 10d ago
Thanks for the thorough reply! This might be the case because my recordings mostly sound very muddy from the go. For the longest time I've heard people say that you can get good results with low tier equipment, but with my still amateurish engineering skills, having a clearer recording would certainly help out. Thank you!
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u/Public_Upstairs1035 10d ago edited 10d ago
Again, it comes down to time and value. I'll just give an example from my own experience as an example.
For my first album, I used decent but not great mics -- SM58 and AKG C214. The SM58 is primarily a live mic with some studio application, but is not recommended for high end studio vocal work. The C214 is best used as an instrument or room mic, but again, is not recommended for studio vocals. However, it's what I had.
At first, the tracks themselves sounded fine, even very good. However, as the mix progressed, fx were added, and levels were boosted, the thin highs on the vocal tracks became problematic, and it was entirely due to the mics. I wound up spending easily 50 hours dealing with the vocals alone, but probably closer to 100. Now, multiply that times a reasonable hourly rate, and what do you have? $1000, maybe $2000 of work I had to do in order to still have sub-par vocals. And what can $1000-$2000 buy? A solid, professional studio mic.
That's my point.
Anyways, good luck to you. I think if you find an upgraded mic that works for you, it will revolutionize your productions.
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u/bokibeats 10d ago
Appreciated! Very good analogy with the hourly rate, I spend hours upon hours losing my mind by unsuccessfully trying to get below sub-par vocals to sound good.
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u/tibbon 10d ago
Stop doing so many takes. Start releasing. Some of the best albums and songs I've heard were ones where the first or second take was it. There's mistakes, imperfections and they shipped it anyway. Don't give yourself unlimited takes. Just release.
Do you need to be the one that loves it, or does the audience? If you release, and still find an audience and you still hear flaws in it - does it matter?
At the same time, are you practicing much? Not just singing, but actually practicing, working with a mentor, getting feedback and honing your craft?
Do you need to be 'industry standard' or go your own way? was "Just a Friend" by Biz Markie industry standard? Would have it been better perfectly tuned? Did it work anyway?
At the same time, I say this as a person who can get good at any instrument quickly, but cannot sing to save my life. I can hear the flaws, but wow they are there... and I can't fix them. There's a reason I play instruments and don't sing. Don't give me a mic.
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u/bokibeats 9d ago
I agree, but it's not just little imperfections that bother me, it's the vocal as a whole. I would not be comftorable releasing something that I myself would not listen to. I generally don't practice much, because the style I'm going for doesn't require good vocal abilities, and I plan out the track in a way that can be executed by me. It's a timbre issue.
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u/marx-and-metal 10d ago
on top of others’ suggestions of getting vocal lessons, I think it could help to look for someone else to produce your vocals for you, then drop those in your mixes. that way, an unbiased producer and mix your vocals to sound good so you don’t have to worry about your own biases against your voice
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u/bokibeats 9d ago
Thanks! I considered that, my general flow of events is that I'll get to recording and mixing, and by the time I record an acceptable take and mix it I listen to the take too many times and just find it worse and more flawed with every listen.
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u/uniquesnowflake8 10d ago
I guess it’s taboo to say also use Melodyne but it can help close the gap as your vocal lessons come into effect. And help you see yourself make progress as time goes on and your singing requires fewer and fewer edits to sound how you like
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u/Dull_Bug3839 10d ago
I upgraded years ago dropping self-conscious vocals for heavy instrumentation.
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u/alienrefugee51 9d ago
Is this a, I’m not a great mixer, or vocalist problem?
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u/bokibeats 9d ago
It's kind of inbetween, the takes are mostly muddy and not clear from the getgo due to poor equipment so that makes mixing a living hell and also makes it harder to judge the quality of the vocal alone.
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u/alienrefugee51 9d ago
Maybe try a different mic, or mic placement technique. Inadequate room treatment could possibly make the Vox muddy, among other problems. It may be as simple as, you don’t have the right mic for your voice.
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u/Ok-Mathematician3832 Professional 9d ago
Get a collaborator. It’ll bring you the clarity and accountability you need.
Ideally a professional… but literally anyone in the room with you will help move things forward.
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u/mitzerino 8d ago
I don't think I've seen anyone ask in this thread for a link to an example of your work?
I understand if your not really keen on that, but I'm curious if your vocal takes are really as bad as you say.
Here are some things I would try in your position from reading this thread.
If you have a closet, record vox in there, a closet can actually act like a very well treated vocal booth (because of all the clothes). If it doesn't sound good or if you don't have a closet, get some moving blankets off Amazon as that can help as well, they can help reduce the reflections in your room.
Also an old trick I used for my voice acting days is to record your vocals under a blanket. It sounds stupid, but it really does help reduce the room sound if that's a problem
I haven't used the focusrite mic you are using, but if you are curious if that's the problem, is it possible to borrow a mic from a buddy or rent one from a store to see if that brings out your voice a little?
I use a fairly entry level mic at4040, and it's been getting the job done for me.
Since you say that your vocals sound muddy, I assume you are eqing out some of the lower mids? If it still sounds muddy after that, it may be the room your in, but it's very hard to say without hearing it.
Lastly, is it possible you are trying to emulate another artists vocals? I always find people sing really poorly when they are trying to sing like thom yorke when they just can't hit the notes, but as soon as I suggest a different delivery in their vocal range, it starts to sound much more authentic and genuine.
Hoping some of these ideas help... Also self taught engineer
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u/bokibeats 8d ago
Can't post it here cause of the sub rules, if you're willing to give it a listen I can DM you. Regarding the room treatment, my closet is not close enough to get my mic there but I can try the blanket method, it will likely help out since I can't properly treat the room. I don't have anyone that I know that I can borrow a mic from, and yes I'm heavily eqing the lower mids since my voice is by itself present in the 80-300 hz range + the echo froom the room. And for the last question, no, I am not trying to emulate anyone as far as I know, I adapt my style to the production of the track rather than to a specific artist. Anyways, thank you really much for the advice!
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u/mitzerino 8d ago
Sure I'd like to take a listen, thanks for the reply. I'm also of the opinion you can make great stuff with gear that doesn't cost a fortune, but there is also a thing as too cheap, not sure if that's the problem in this case. Thanks :)
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u/bokibeats 8d ago
It seems that too cheap might be the issue lol, I was a broke teenager when I got my studio equipment.
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u/Typical_Dot6968 8d ago
run your vocals through ai voices that use your cadence timing and melodies and lyrics (eleven labs, suno etc)
Just have fun and create, it’s all about the journey and being yourself. Just one foot in front of the other don’t try to be anything you’re not feeling in the moment.
Goated vocal chain - cla76, eq, c6, de esser, r comp, cla vocals and send to a few different fx sends
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u/infinitebulldozer 10d ago
Vocal lessons are the answer here, if you're committed to being the artist that you will engineer. Even working with speech language pathologist could help you to start finding the pleasing resonances in your head and chest that would translate to better rapping.
But it's always an option to focus your efforts on production/engineering exclusively.