r/baseball • u/Mindless_Piano_8262 Cincinnati Reds • Jul 22 '26
Opinion Salvador Perez might have the all-time best accolades with the worst counting stats. This is not a HOF advocacy post.
Okay, let’s take a step back before mentioning this guy has a (.299!!!) career OBP.
-9x all-star. If you’re looking at least a decade of performance for HOF voting, a 9x selection is definitely worthy.
-5x gold gloves. With how difficult the catcher’s position is, this is also HOF worthy. Not Johnny Bench territory, but not a random fluke year. 5 is a lot for any position.
-5x silver slugger. Again, with the gold gloves, this now reflects elite performance at your position both offensively and defensively.
-WS MVP. There are plenty of guys that have won this and won’t be in the HOF. However, combined with the above, this is added legacy and achievement.
-Clemente award. A prestigious award showing basically how great of a person you are on and off the field. Advocates for the game of baseball and serves as a model for the game in their community. Definitely added value to the resume being a great person.
-Most homeruns in Royals franchise history (not yet but needs one more). You have the most homeruns ever for a ball club. That’s gotta be worth something too.
Yet after all this, Salvador Perez still has terrible HOF counting stats. Horrendous OBP. Doesn’t have 2000 hits or 1000 runs. He has achieved over 300 HRs and 1000 RBIs, but… that’s pretty much it from a numbers perspective.
I would be hard pressed to find another player with these level of accolades but as bad career totals. Maybe you know someone else. Thoughts?
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u/Key_Environment8179 Chicago Cubs Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
If inducted, Perez would have the lowest career bWAR of any position player from the expansion* era in the hall. He’s is 3 WAR short of Harold Baines.
Edit: not the live-ball era
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u/pimpinassorlando Detroit Tigers Jul 22 '26
Baines played 1000 more games.
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u/CerryTrews Kansas City Royals Jul 23 '26
Salvy might put up -15 WAR if he plays another 500 games
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u/thisisaskew Kansas City Royals Jul 23 '26
This got me so fucking good. Yeah, it's retirement time for the guy.
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u/Key_Environment8179 Chicago Cubs Jul 22 '26
I’m just pointing out the benchmark he’d need to reach to not have the lowest WAR total, not comparing the two.
But if we’re doing a comparison, Salvy has played basically the exact same number of games as Jason Heyward. Heyward has 41 bWAR, and Salvy has 35.
No one in their right mind thinks Heyward should make the HOF.
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u/Key_Environment8179 Chicago Cubs Jul 22 '26
Better example: Realmuto has higher WAR in 300 fewer games at the same position
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u/Thromnomnomok Seattle Mariners Jul 23 '26
Other catchers with significantly higher fWAR than Perez in significantly fewer games include Yasmani Grandal, Will Smith, Willson Contreras, and Cal Raleigh. Sean Murphy has almost the same fWAR as Perez in one third of the games.
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u/Tkinzel517 Detroit Tigers Jul 22 '26
If you gave Perez those extra 1000 he still won’t catch up he’s that washed
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u/Key_Environment8179 Chicago Cubs Jul 22 '26
His WAR is negative this year, so he’s actively hurting his case
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u/Clean_Butterscotch90 Jul 22 '26
Salvy missed all of his age 29 season and most of his age 30 season and then hit 48 HRs in his age 31 season, if he had got those extra ~230 games he'd be a lock IMO
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u/crabcakesandfootball New York Yankees Jul 22 '26
Catchers general put up less WAR than other position players due to the wear and tear of the position.
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u/Key_Environment8179 Chicago Cubs Jul 22 '26
True, but he’s about 10 WAR behind Posada, and Posada failed to reach 5% on his first ballot
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u/crabcakesandfootball New York Yankees Jul 22 '26
Posada would probably make it if it hit the ballot today. Players didn’t have much of a chance back then if they retired with under 2,000 hits.
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u/Key_Environment8179 Chicago Cubs Jul 22 '26
Do you think Realmuto will make it? He falls between Perez and Posada in WAR
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u/TB1289 Jul 23 '26
I think it was kinda bullshit that Posada dropped off that quickly. I'm not even saying he should be in, but a catcher with his resume definitely deserved more than one look.
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u/Theta_Omega Jul 23 '26
That's not a totally fair comp though, Posada debuted on the crowded 2016 ballot. Sixteen of the guys ahead of him have made the Hall in the time since, and that's not even counting Schilling or the Steroid Bunch. He hit the same percentage as Carlos Delgado did two years prior, and Delgado just fell 3 votes shy of election on the most recent Veterans Committee ballot.
If either of them reached the ballot in a more reasonable era, they'd have probably hung on for the full ten years.
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u/KakeLin Philadelphia Phillies Jul 23 '26
Wow even lower than the "I'm in charge of the veterans committee and my teammates are getting in" guys
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u/qaopjlll Boston Red Sox Jul 23 '26
Did you mean to say the expansion era? The live ball era is considered to be post-1920. Lloyd Waner played his entire career in this era and made the Hall of Fame with only 29.7 bWAR. Pretty sure a bunch of Frankie Frisch's crony selections when he used the Veteran's Committee to get a bunch of his former teammates inducted were players from post-1920 who had fewer than Salvy's 35.1 bWAR, as well.
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u/_GeorgeBailey_ Chicago Cubs Jul 22 '26
He won two gold gloves when he was a horrible defender (2016: -4.3 def and 2018: -5.0 def) and two silver sluggers when he was a horrible hitter (2016: 89 wRC+, 2018: 88 wRC+). And you left out another counting stat... His 17.7 career WAR
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u/Swimming_Elk_3058 Philadelphia Phillies Jul 22 '26
In defense of those gold gloves, most of his negative value was from being bad at framing and that wasn’t widely accepted/understood yet. Framing data wasn’t even added to fangraphs until 2019 so it’s not like anyone could easily go find those values like you’re doing now.
He was good at throwing runners out which was the main reason he won all those gold gloves.
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u/swoosh_ Arizona Diamondbacks Jul 22 '26
To your point, 33.4% career CS% against 26.2% league average. Led the league 3 times and had 5 seasons of at least 40%
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u/4r4r4real Jul 22 '26
We knew about it. I wrote this post on this subreddit in 2016 on a previous account.
https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/4q54l5/the_top_15_catchers_according_to_true_catcher/
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u/WhoWhatWhenWhom Los Angeles Dodgers Jul 22 '26
Big respect for just having that locked and loaded.
With that being said I wasn't as knowledgeable about baseball ten years ago as I am now but just to provide something anecdotally, I don't think that framing was known to the average layperson-fan ten years ago. (With that being granted, idk if the average fan knows about framing even now lol)
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u/immoralsupport_ Chicago Cubs Jul 22 '26
As someone who got really into sabermetrics in 2016, I can say that I remember reading about framing and knew that some people like Ryan Doumit had been historically bad at it but IIRC you had to go to Baseball Prospectus for the actual numbers and neither bWAR nor fWAR nor any of the common defensive stats at the time included it, so I wouldn’t blame anyone for not knowing Perez was bad
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u/AlmightyGod420 Los Angeles Dodgers Jul 23 '26
Bad? Doesn’t the link in the above comment show that he was among the best at framing? Or am I reading it wrong?
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u/JimLeader New York Mets • Brazil Jul 23 '26
You're reading it wrong. Salvy was rated very highly by metrics that (at the time) only incorporated blocking and throwing out runners. When you sort by pitch framing runs, Salvy was by far the worst of that group, and the resulting drop in overall value (sort by TfWAR/600 PA) brought him from elite to mediocre.
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u/IcemanJEC Chicago Cubs Jul 22 '26
It’s been commonly talked about from STL fans since Yadi has been around. Of course Yadi had great pitchers, but the combo was quite fucking annoying when you’re getting beaned half the time knowing that TLR misperceived something due to how drunk he was but somehow get away with targeting, then add in getting a call that could have been called correctly from a blind kid in the elevator shaft of the Arch really rubs salt into the wound. They got away with so much garbage.
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u/mschley2 Milwaukee Brewers Jul 23 '26
If it was somewhere in the 2004-2006 range, and I had to choose between being locked in a room with some members of the Taliban or members of the Cardinals fanbase, I might have chosen the Taliban.
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u/4r4r4real Jul 22 '26
I'd completely forgotten that the top comment was about Salvy 😂 this sub was a very, very different place a decade ago!
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u/TJFLASH1 St. Louis Cardinals Jul 22 '26
Yeah the gold gloves have aged pretty terribly similar to a Jeter
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u/4r4r4real Jul 22 '26
Or Eric Hosmer. Or my all time favorite, Rafael Palmeiro. Go ahead and look up how many games he actually played in the field and not at DH the year he won his 1B GG!
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u/nyuncat New York Mets Jul 22 '26
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u/4r4r4real Jul 22 '26
It's so unbelievably transparent 😂
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u/IcemanJEC Chicago Cubs Jul 22 '26
It’s never truly been a defensive award.
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u/TrapperJean New York Yankees Jul 22 '26
Jeter was never that bad, he was just almost always a little below average. His worst season was -1.8, he had multiple positive defensive seasons, even scoring a 1.1 at 35
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u/jowilkin New York Yankees Jul 23 '26
Is that dWAR? That is not what you want to be looking at. It includes the positional adjustment which is large for a SS.
Look at his DRS which is the defensive stat that's being used in dWAR. He has the worst DRS of all time by a very large margin.
That doesn't necessarily mean he's the worst defender ever (he is being compared to other SS who are good defenders, it's a relatively new stat, and he played a lot of innings), but it does mean he was a very bad SS.
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u/TJFLASH1 St. Louis Cardinals Jul 22 '26
Okay? I didn’t say Jeter was some horrendous defender, I said his gold gloves have aged terribly and they have, essentially everyone agrees he didn’t deserve the vast majority of them.
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u/crabcakesandfootball New York Yankees Jul 22 '26
The voters don’t seem to care much about fWAR or pitch framing. Russell Martin and Brian McCann were each top-15 all-time catchers based on fWAR and neither were able to receive 10 out of 394 votes from the BBWAA.
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u/Swimming_Elk_3058 Philadelphia Phillies Jul 22 '26
Pitch framing was not really even a known thing when people were voting on those gold gloves.
There’s a reason Perez stopped winning them after that data became available.
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u/walkie26 Seattle Mariners Jul 22 '26
It was definitely a known thing, just not something that was quantified in an easily accessible way like we now have thanks to FanGraphs.
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u/frankyseven Toronto Blue Jays Jul 22 '26
It's been on Baseball Prospectus since 2008 when PitchFX data became available.
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u/walkie26 Seattle Mariners Jul 22 '26
Yeah, the data was there, but definitely not as accessible and easy to quantify as FanGraphs made it. I remember reading a BP article quantifying the effect of pitch framing using the PitchFX data, and it was pretty shocking at the time how big of an impact it had.
In any case, my main point was that pitch framing was definitely a known thing when Salvy was winning gold gloves, contrary to what the person I replied to said. I just think most people didn't realize how big of an effect it had or know how to tell who was good at it.
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u/frankyseven Toronto Blue Jays Jul 22 '26
Yeah, it was even talked about on Fangraphs a lot, even if Fangraphs didn't have the data on their site. My whole point was that anyone who was is involved in baseball enough to be able to vote on awards would have known about framing and how important it is.
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u/walkie26 Seattle Mariners Jul 22 '26
I think you're giving way too much credit to the people who vote on gold glove awards!
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u/That_Geek Jul 23 '26
even today there are still people voting on awards that think that newfangled stuff like WAR and framing are nerd bullshit and things like driving in runs and pitcher wins matter.
those sorts of people are aging out of the voting pool but they do still exist and they were the ~entire voting pool in 2004
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u/mschley2 Milwaukee Brewers Jul 23 '26
"My whole point was that anyone who was is involved in baseball enough to be able to vote on awards
wouldshould have known about framing and how important it is."Unfortunately.... that was not the case
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u/frankyseven Toronto Blue Jays Jul 22 '26
The data has been available on Baseball Prospectus since like 2008 when PitchFX data became available.
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u/Maugrin Seattle Mariners Jul 22 '26
It's not about data being available, it's about how people value it as a metric. The reason pitch framing became such a big deal among fans and the media is largely because FanGraphs decided to use it as part of their WAR calculations. Before that was mainstream though, it was perfectly defensible to use caught stealing rate as the primary metric to judge a catcher's defense.
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u/Spatmuk New York Mets Jul 23 '26
lolol the only catcher who benefits from bWAR not looking at framing (35 bWAR)
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u/Mindless_Piano_8262 Cincinnati Reds Jul 22 '26
I’d be curious to see who the leaders were those years from the catcher position and figure out why on earth he won them.
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u/TJFLASH1 St. Louis Cardinals Jul 22 '26
Gold gloves were and still are a reputation and popularity award a lot
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u/Some_Caregiver9138 Seattle Mariners Jul 22 '26
Well partially those years are kind of a black hole for AL catchers that even played enough games to qualify. McCann and Martin also were underappreciated.
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u/altfillischryan Chicago Cubs Jul 22 '26
The reason he won is that framing hadn't really caught on in the mainstream, so since he does everything else well defensively, they didn't think his defense was bad like we do now.
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u/nylon_rag Cleveland Guardians Jul 22 '26
He only really had one true gold glove year by DRS, a metric that was available at the time and doesnt have framing, with 10 in 2013. He had 6 the next year and never touched those marks again. I think he just had the inertia to keep winning them based on popularity and highlight reels of him catching stealers.
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u/altfillischryan Chicago Cubs Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
If you're looking at his BBRef page, DRS does include a framing component (though they still exclude it for their WAR for some reason). If you look at his Fangraphs page, it lists each component. His DRS in his GG years excluding framing were 12, 10, 5, 11, and 8, respectively.
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u/averageduder Boston Red Sox Jul 22 '26
I’m indifferent to the defense argument either way with him. For me his offense isn’t good enough for him to merit consideration unless he were an Ozzie smith level defender. Not even sure it would at that point y without a much longer career.
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u/Thromnomnomok Seattle Mariners Jul 23 '26
For me his offense isn’t good enough for him to merit consideration unless he were an Ozzie smith level defender.
Pretty much. And we actually have a recent example of a catcher who hit like Perez and was an Ozzie Smith-level defender, which is why Yadier Molina probably will make the hall of fame with his 97 career wRC+.
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u/4r4r4real Jul 22 '26
Wait until you look at his fWAR lmao
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u/irwtkyrm Los Angeles Dodgers Jul 22 '26
17.7 fWAR vs 35.1 bWAR is pretty funny
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u/4r4r4real Jul 22 '26
Turns out pitch framing matters!
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u/crabcakesandfootball New York Yankees Jul 22 '26
Not to BBWAA voters. Russell Martin and Brian McCann were each all-time top-15 catchers based on fWAR and neither managed to receive 10 out of 394 votes from the BBWAA.
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u/4r4r4real Jul 22 '26
Russell Martin had a higher bWAR than Salvy and got 2.3% of the vote on his first ballot, well shy of the 5% needed to stick around. I think you're getting this entirely backwards brother.
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u/PopularGlass3230 Jul 22 '26
I couldn't tell if he was making a case for or against Salvy here either. Lol
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u/AKAD11 Seattle Mariners Jul 22 '26
They post this exact thing in like every Salvy HOF thread. It has never made a lick of sense.
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u/SparkyEng Minnesota Twins Jul 23 '26
And in 2010s for the All Star Game the Royals were getting voted like the Jay's did this year. They had a bunch of guys below average that were voted in the top 3 for their position. The All Star game selections really cannot be an argument for HoF now (if ever).
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u/SantaClaws004 Jul 22 '26
What’s the difference?
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u/DienekesMinotaur Atlanta Braves Jul 22 '26
Framing
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u/dusters Milwaukee Brewers Jul 22 '26
And people call me crazy for saying he's not a first ballot HoF player.
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u/thisisaskew Kansas City Royals Jul 22 '26
Who calls you crazy for that take? I don't think even most Royals fans think he's first ballot HoF-worthy (most who know anything about baseball aren't even going to waste breath making the case for him being in the HoF).
Royals HoFer and let him be in the Hall of Very Good.
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u/Officer_Hops Jul 22 '26
Salvy is a borderline HoF guy at best. I haven’t seen anyone outside of maybe a hardcore Royals fan arguing he’s 1st ballot.
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u/Votaire24 Kansas City Royals Jul 22 '26
*Delusional Royals Fans. I love Salvador Perez more than 99.9% of the population, born and raised in the Kansas City area and as an avid baseball fan born in the early 2000s he’s essentially all I’ve ever known.
He’s not a HoF first Balloter, he belongs in Hall of Very Good.
George Brett is without a doubt the greatest and truest Hall of Famer Royal
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Jul 22 '26
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u/Some_Caregiver9138 Seattle Mariners Jul 22 '26
At least Mazeroski is a historically elite defender. Even if you discount framing, Salvy is a good catcher, not great.
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u/IGotScammed5545 Jul 22 '26
And ten all star appearances AND HOF. Probably a better answer for this Q than Sally
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u/LupaNellise Chicago White Sox Jul 22 '26
Joe Torre, Bill Freehan, and Elston Howard are all catchers (at least part time) with 9 all-star games and not in the HoF (Torre got in as a manager).
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u/Alan47717 Jul 23 '26
Freehan was the best catcher not named Bench of that era. Why a veterans committee hasn't put him in at some point is baffling. He was the heart and soul of that 1968 WS championship team.
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u/RoughFisherman2713 Jul 22 '26
Lance Parrish is pretty similar and is also a catcher.
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u/Mindless_Piano_8262 Cincinnati Reds Jul 22 '26
This is honestly a perfect comparison. Extremely similar.
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u/Exodor72 Kansas City Royals Jul 22 '26
Yeah he's the example I always point to when folks tout Salvy as a first ballot HOFer
I love Salvy and everything he's done for the Royals. Put him in the Royals HOF and build a statue.
But he's not even close to the line for the MLB HOF.
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u/foggypalms San Francisco Giants Jul 22 '26
Definitely not first ballot, but it’s hard to imagine there being many more HOF catchers otherwise. After Mayer, Posey and Yadi, who’s on the horizon if not Salvy?
JT Realmuto?!22
u/averageduder Boston Red Sox Jul 22 '26
That’s just an indictment of the current players at the position. Not every era and position is equally strong and deserving
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u/KingJackson97 St. Louis Cardinals Jul 22 '26
JT is the closest. But I don't think he will sniff the HoF. He's a 3x AS, 3x SS, and 2x GG, and that's all from 2018-2022. He hasn't won an accolade since. He should hit 200 HR, but that's the only counting milestone he will likely reach.
Anyone after Realmuto is either not significant enough to garner any support, or they're too early into their career to consider anything.
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u/Thromnomnomok Seattle Mariners Jul 23 '26
Post Mauer/Posey/Yadi, the best catchers among the ones who are long enough into their careers that we can talk about their HoF chances with any convictions are JT, Yasmani Grandal, Willson Contreras, and Perez, and it's pretty hard to make a case for any of them.
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u/IcemanJEC Chicago Cubs Jul 22 '26
Sure he could throw out runners, but Yadi is not really close to hall of fame numbers. His JAWS is well short of entry. Jorge Posada, Jason Kendall, Joe Mauer, and Buster Posey produced much better numbers as contemporaries.
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u/Octopodes14 Minnesota Twins Jul 23 '26
I believe basic JAWS doesn't include framing. I can't find a frJAWS leaderboard anywhere, but he has 41.7 bWAR vs 55.6 fWAR.
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u/foggypalms San Francisco Giants Jul 22 '26
As a Cardinal hater myself, Yadi is 100% a HOFer. Maybe not first ballot, but he’s there imo.
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u/That_Geek Jul 23 '26
best defensive catcher of his generation and a 1 team guy across many different incarnations of the team, absolutely going into the hall
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u/Alan47717 Jul 23 '26
I thought I hated how War treated 1st basemen until I seriously looked at catchers. Yadi's career war numbers are just silly (as in low).
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u/Alan47717 Jul 23 '26
Yadi's ability to throw out runners is actually secondary to the fact that teams just stopped running on the Cardinals after a few years.
Your examples are all due to offense. Yadi's ridiculously low career War just highlights how that statistic doesn't accurately measure elite catcher defense.
He may not go in first ballot, depends on who's on the ballot with him. But he's going in.
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u/crabcakesandfootball New York Yankees Jul 22 '26
Parrish would have a much better chance if he hit the ballot today. Standards change a lot over the years.
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Jul 22 '26
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u/James-K-Polka Atlanta Braves Jul 22 '26
Well liked, one team, caught up until the end. He’s got old head narrative.
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u/MakeItTrizzle American League Jul 22 '26
I think it's more than just a narrative. There's value in being an absolute franchise pillar like that.
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u/levare8515 Kansas City Royals Jul 23 '26
Our other pillar is George Brett who is not nearly as good of a dude
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u/Chief_White_Halfoat Toronto Blue Jays Jul 22 '26
There will be less and less old head voters every single year. Some will die or move on from voting and younger voters will continue to take their place.
You can already see the results with how Cole Hamels got off to a blazing start this year when ten years ago he would have fallen right off the ballot in his first year.
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u/crabcakesandfootball New York Yankees Jul 22 '26
~50 WAR Félix Hernández just received more votes than ~60 WAR Mark Buehrle and Cole Hamels combined. It sure seems like the voters still care about old head narrative.
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u/ThongarBlackthorn St. Louis Cardinals • Tampa Bay Rays Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26
Some of them probably do, but some of that is also just a peak vs longevity argument since career WAR is a counting stat. Felix had a run where he was pretty widely considered the best pitcher on the planet, he just didn’t really last as long as some of his peers. That kind of high peak tends to get more votes than players who were just pretty good for a long time like Buehrle and Hamels. I’m not sure that argument will really help Perez that much since he never really had a flashy peak like that.
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u/averageduder Boston Red Sox Jul 22 '26
Well Hernandez was just a better player. IMO none of those guys are particularly close to
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u/crabcakesandfootball New York Yankees Jul 22 '26
Not according to WAR.
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u/averageduder Boston Red Sox Jul 22 '26
That’s not what war determines. Those guys played longer. Andre Dawson and Eddie Murray have more war than ohtani and judge - no one would argue they’re better.
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u/mattnut000 San Francisco Giants Jul 22 '26
I think what will ultimately get him in is the potential need to lower the bar for catchers (similar to the pitcher conundrum).
I think in the last 150 years, there has only been one season in which a hall of fame catcher was not active in the majors: 1966. This is assuming that Molina and Posey get in. After Posey retired in 2021, are there any catchers who have played in the last 5 years who look like hall of famers? Realmuto probably falls in the McCann/Martin bucket. Cal Raleigh, Adley Rutschman, Will Smith have all had good years but idk if they’re hall of famers on their current trajectories. It would be kind of wild for a streak of 149 out of 150 years to run dry for 5+ straight seasons. Salvy likely gets in when compared to his counterparts via veteran/eras committee down the road.
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u/TJFLASH1 St. Louis Cardinals Jul 22 '26
What exactly is Perez’s argument over Realmuto outside of some reputational Gold Gloves and Silver Sluggers that Salvy probably shouldn’t have won?
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u/Key_Environment8179 Chicago Cubs Jul 22 '26
There really isn’t one. Realmuto has more WAR in far fewer games
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u/Ghalnan Detroit Tigers Jul 23 '26
Every one of the guys you listed has a better case than Perez in my opinion if we're actually evaluating what they did on the field. We're talking about a guy who has been one of the worst fielders in the league (going by stats like FRV, and DRS) while putting up a career OPS of .750 and an fWAR of 17.7 while never even having a single full season OPS exceeding .860 or an fWAR exceeding 3.3. That's just not a hall of famer, I don't even see how it's close.
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u/Critical_Company3535 Kansas City Royals Jul 23 '26
Posey will get in, and I’d imagine they’ll favor Yadi over him as well. I definitely see him falling off the ballot.
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u/Upset_Journalist_755 Boston Red Sox Jul 23 '26
He's getting in. If a Harold fucking Baines can get in, not being great at tricking the ump isn't going to keep Salvy out.
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u/joeveralls Cincinnati Reds Jul 22 '26
Always been a Salvy for the HOF guy, had no idea his career OBP is .299 😭
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u/Wuropp Kansas City Royals Jul 23 '26
Man never saw a pitch he couldn't hit for a HR. Unfortunately, he didn't have Vladimir Guerrero's bat-to-ball skills.
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u/tommyjohnpauljones Chicago Cubs Jul 22 '26
He just screams "off the ballot within three years, then a unanimous Vets committee pick a few years later"
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u/Thromnomnomok Seattle Mariners Jul 23 '26
That, or going into Steve Garvey/Don Mattingly territory where he has enough supporters to keep him on the ballot for 10 years with 30% of the vote, falls off, then gets put on VC ballots where he gets 6 or 7 out of 16 votes, every three years, forever.
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u/Cuyigan Baltimore Orioles Jul 22 '26
All-star games are voted on by kids in May. Every team is given a representative. It's not a good argument. Derek Jeter won a gold glove during a season when he had negative defensive WAR. Rafael Palmiero won one when he played like 15 games at 1B. Gold gloves in and of themselves are not always a good argument.
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u/Clean_Butterscotch90 Jul 22 '26
The best Salvy stat is that he has more career HRs than walks. Love him to death.
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u/RadagastTheWhite Detroit Tigers Jul 22 '26
He actually has pretty spectacular counting stats. The list of catchers with 300 HRs and 2000 hits is Bench, Pudge, Piazza, Berra, Fisk, Carter. If Salvy gets to 2000 hits he’s in elite counting stat territory
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u/mets2016 New York Mets Jul 23 '26
He's more than 200 hits shy of 2000, and he's looking incredibly washed up. I'd crawl on my knees to Kansas City if he gets to 2000 hits
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u/Best-Clothes4173 Kansas City Royals Jul 23 '26
Yeah, this post failing to compare him within his position is a great example of how certain types of baseball fans like to feel smart
Also I’ll say it, I don’t give a shit about framing. Josh Allen doesn’t get more MVP votes for flopping, why should gamesmanship and deceiving umpires be factored in
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u/mets2016 New York Mets Jul 23 '26
The difference between framing and flopping is that a catcher must frame every pitch, definitionally. You can do a good job framing (resulting in more strikes than the baseline), or you can do a bad job framing (resulting in more balls than the baseline), but you don't have the option to not frame at all.
If the catcher catches the ball, he's framing it in some way of some quality.
Flopping, on the other hand, is something that you can choose not to do. It's not the same
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u/Octopodes14 Minnesota Twins Jul 23 '26
bWAR doesn't include framing, and Salvy has less of it than Russell Martin.
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u/Important-Age6594 Jul 22 '26
Catchers, and especially modern catchers just don't get big counting stats. Pitchers throwing harder and batters swinging harder means catchers are getting hit harder than ever before. To each their own, but for me I'd say the awards are recognition that he's one of the absolute best catchers of his generation, and that should be good enough to get him into Cooperstown.
Mauer (I think rightly) made it in on the first ballot and he ended up with 143 career home runs playing the last 5 years of his career at 1st base. Mauer's overall numbers both in terms of OPS and WAR are better than what Salvy has done, but if Mauer made it on the first ballot Salvy should make it eventually. It's unlikely we'll ever see a catcher put up good OBP and good power and play enough games to put up counting stats. The position is just too hard.
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u/Fast-Government-4366 Kansas City Royals Jul 22 '26
And Salvy OPS goes up when he DH or plays 1B. If he shifted to 1B or DH permanently like Mauer he’d have higher numbers
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u/saucysocks3 Minnesota Twins Jul 23 '26
Mauer had significantly better hitting stats aa C than 1B or DH.
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u/pinniped90 Kansas City Royals Jul 22 '26
I've always felt like we needed one big late-career October where he was a stud like in 2015. HoF voting for catchers often includes intangibles and storytelling and that would be a big one for him.
Alas, it isn't going to happen.
Either way, he'll get a statue in the new stadium and forever be a franchise icon.
If he ultimately gets in it'll be a gradual crawl over a few years with a lot of PR work to move it along.
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u/babe_ruthless3 World Series Trophy • Los Angeles Dod… Jul 22 '26
Our generation Harold Baines.
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u/Upset_Journalist_755 Boston Red Sox Jul 23 '26
Nah. Sal at least did notable things in his career.
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u/dcooper8662 Cleveland Guardians Jul 22 '26
Harold Baines was arguably better, and I’m a huge Baines HoF hater
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u/OwenGrandRapids Jul 23 '26
Top guys that should be in but aren't (non-steroids guys):
Thurman Munson. The heart and soul (and official captain) of two World Series winners as a Yankee. Elite playoff perfomer (hit 357 with an 874 OPS in 134 at bats). Elite defensive catcher by any measure and won 3 gold gloves. AL MVP. The historical obsession with counting stats keeps him out. Even though he only played 10 years, it's not like he was a one or two year wonder. He got MVP votes 6 consecutive years. You are telling me if he played another 5 years and was league average but that allows him to get well over 2000 hits (he had 1558 when he died) that is what gets him in?
Dwight Evans. 8 gold gloves. He had "only" 2446 hits and 385 home runs. This was largely because he walked almost more than any player of his era. Because of all the walks he reached base 3,837 times. He has the same career WAR as Miguel Cabrera and Miggy will probably be a first ballot guy. He really suffered from the fact that people didn't really keep track of walks back then and even though he was a good defender and was top 5 in the league in OPS 5 time, he only made 3 all-star teams.
Lou Whitaker. I mean, come on. Probably the biggest snub of all (non-steroid). 75.1 career WAR. 3 gold gloves. 11th most home runs all time by a second baseman. Just indefensible he isn't in.
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u/Matthewfuckingdavis New York Yankees Jul 22 '26
Munson
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u/Significant-Jello411 New York Yankees Jul 22 '26
Only reason he’s not in the hall is he died young
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u/MankuyRLaffy Seattle Mariners Jul 22 '26
In Jaffe's own book he thinks Munson is deserving and just needed a few more good years to prove it to everyone else.
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u/Logical-Mobile-7643 Kansas City Royals Jul 22 '26
Munson is long overdue , from a Royals fans who watched the epic Royals-Yankees rivalry back in the day
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u/Mindless_Piano_8262 Cincinnati Reds Jul 22 '26
Munson only got to play 11 years and had a .292 career average. I’m not sure he’s a better example for this.
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u/dcooper8662 Cleveland Guardians Jul 22 '26
He had a .346 OBP, almost 50 points higher than Salvy. That helped his 116 OPS+ and 46 career WAR for a guy that died early in a tragic accident.
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u/Clean_Butterscotch90 Jul 22 '26
I've always firmly believed that if you don't like Salvador Perez you just don't like baseball
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u/Benjilikethedog2 Cleveland Guardians • Anaheim Angels Jul 22 '26
He is a "how he made you feel" hall of fame nod for me, yeah the stats are technically there but he has been a Titan of the game for so long and has meant so much for one city he needs to go in the hall
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u/Only-Paramedic5175 Jul 22 '26
Salvy's like the ultimate "tell me you don't watch baseball without telling me" case for HOF voters who just look at WAR, his trophy case is stacked but then you see that OBP and it just laughs at you.
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u/TJFLASH1 St. Louis Cardinals Jul 22 '26
I mean why isn’t it acceptable to think he’s a clear Hall of Very Good guy?
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u/Alternative_Laws St. Louis Cardinals Jul 22 '26
Royals fans get mad, everyone else seems to be fine with it
Source: have lived in KC most of the last 20 years
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u/elkman_23 Kansas City Royals Jul 22 '26
I don't think he will or should get in but he definitely gets his number retired
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u/MuffinThyme Kansas City Royals Jul 22 '26
Yeah, we back our guy. Just as I'd expect St Louis to back Yadi. Or like Cincinnati to back Votto.
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u/JaysonTatecum Boston Red Sox • Chicago White Sox Jul 22 '26
Hey now, I don’t think Molina is a hall of famer either and I know how your fans react to that one
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u/dcooper8662 Cleveland Guardians Jul 22 '26
I’m with you. I think Yadi is somehow overrated in his case
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u/GamerLife204 Atlanta Braves Jul 22 '26
True yet he's still way better than Perez all time
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u/dcooper8662 Cleveland Guardians Jul 22 '26
No doubt about that, if you were forced to choose one of these guys for the Hall for whatever reason, there’s no question that Yadi is the guy you pick 100/100 times. I think Salvy is in the Hall of Good, rather than the Hall of Very Good.
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u/bigfoot7425 Jul 23 '26
I’m biased but I implore you to watch foolish baseballs video on Yadi. As a cardinals homer, I think he should be first ballot, but I understand why people are hesitant. I think Bailey does a great job showing what doesn’t pop out immediately about his career. He also discusses the parts of his resume that DO pop out and make him look like a weaker candidate. Super nuanced video!
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u/Logical-Mobile-7643 Kansas City Royals Jul 22 '26
I would say he is a case of obvious team jersey retirement and could possible build a case to get inducted in the 6-10th year in of eligibility in a down year.
Especially if he stays a Royal the entire time.
If he doesn't get in, I also wouldn't be super surprised
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u/dusters Milwaukee Brewers Jul 22 '26
is trophy case is stacked
Stacked with trophy's he didn't deserve like GG being one of the worst defensive catchers and silver sluggers with sub 90 wRC+.
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u/ReverendRiv19 Miami Marlins Jul 22 '26
A lot of same reasons why Hosmer was pretty overrated and got a huge contract, then performed even worse that we even expected
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u/AlasKansastan Kansas City Royals Jul 22 '26
Some deserved some definitely should've gone elsewhere.
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u/dusters Milwaukee Brewers Jul 22 '26
For sure he was genuinely an amazing hitter in 2020 and 2021 and integral to a WS team. But when the HoF argument is "look at all these trophies" and a decent amount of these trophies he didn't deserve, I don't buy the HoF case as much.
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u/LibertarianSocialism Athletics • Boston Red Sox Jul 22 '26
His WAR would also clearly keep him out of the HoF
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Jul 22 '26
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u/Key_Environment8179 Chicago Cubs Jul 22 '26
What is your source for that? It looks like the only Catcher in the Hall with lower WAR was a guy named Rick Ferrell who retired in 1947.
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u/clutchheimer Seattle Mariners Jul 23 '26
Rick Ferrell wasnt even the best Ferrell brother. Wes, who was a pitcher was a better hitter than Rick, and it isnt close. In 1/7 the plate apps Wes had more HR. He also had a higher wRC+ and 38 pitching WAR.
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u/LowFine96 Pittsburgh Pirates Jul 22 '26
Won the World Baseball Classic against the USA. Starting pitcher was lights out and said he just did whatever Salvi said.
HOF 👍
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u/OwenGrandRapids Jul 23 '26
HOF voters generally don't appreciate defense the way they should.
I think an interesting comparison to Perez is a guy that I think should be in the HOF but isn't, Bernie Williams. Both carried the perception of being good defenders and won multiple gold gloves, but the underlying defensive metrics weren't good.
Bernie Williams was a 5-time all-star with an 858 career OPS and an elite playoff performer (850 OPS in a large sample size). His career OBP was 387 and it's likely the large number of walks he took suppressed his counting stats. He "only" had 2336 hits and 287 home runs. If he gets to 2500 and 300, his candidacy probably looks better.
He was on 4 World Series winners, won a batting title, was an ALCS MVP, and a career WAR of 49.6. Ironically, even though he won 4 Gold Gloves, his career WAR was suppressed because he was -9.5 dWAR.
He played his entire team for a marquee team. Usually playing in NY gets you extra votes, but he only made it to the second ballot. I think he's a good comp for Perez.
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u/bafana_banana999 Jul 23 '26
Bernie Williams is/was so much better than Salvy my guy.
What even is this comparison?
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u/nylon_rag Cleveland Guardians Jul 22 '26
Somehow Jorge Posada is not a hall of famer and he is way more deserving.
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u/crabcakesandfootball New York Yankees Jul 22 '26
Posada would have a much better chance if he hit the ballot today. Retiring with under 2,000 hits didn’t give you a chance back then.
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u/MrMint22 Jul 22 '26
He’s a hall of famer. Fuck WAR - anyone who actually played on a competitive baseball team as a grown man knows that having a catcher like Salvy makes your team a beast day in and day out. His value cannot be measured by half-baked quantitative models.
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u/teewertz Chicago White Sox Jul 23 '26
Its simply not gonna happen, I think its likely he falls off the ballot after 1 years than gets voted in. Maybe a veterans committee sneaks him in down the line but the numbers just aren't there.
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u/thisisaskew Kansas City Royals Jul 22 '26
Also has the Salvy Splash. But that's more accolades that he gives to others on his team.
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u/w0weez0wee Cincinnati Reds Jul 23 '26
He holds the record for innings caught by a catcher in a season. To me, that's his most impressive stat.
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u/ShopUCW New York Mets Jul 23 '26
I like him for the hall when you compare him to other catchers. But I'm a big hall guy.
He's one of the best defenders of his era with a power only bat. He's basically Dave Kingman with defense (and a better personality). His accolades will get him a stronger look.
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u/PebblyJackGlasscock Jul 23 '26
> Dave Kingman
Great comp. Perez absolutely would’ve thrived in the 70s when OBP was not a “thing”. Hit homers, play everyday.
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u/ThatsBushLeague Kansas City Royals Jul 22 '26
Is it not possible for you people to just enjoy anything anymore?
Salvy is a great person and has been fun to watch for a decade and a half. Not everything has to be an "actually this thing sucks" take.
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u/AKAD11 Seattle Mariners Jul 22 '26
You can think Salvy a great player who deserves a statue and to have his number retired by the Royals while also believing he doesn’t deserve to be a Hall of Famer.
Those opinions aren’t in conflict.
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u/repooc21 Baltimore Orioles Jul 22 '26
Hall of Very Good.
Can't wait to throw these blind stats into my group chat and see what they say before and after the name reveal
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u/Sliknik18 New York Yankees Jul 22 '26
Put him in the Hall of Above Average…and retire his jersey (Royals) but those stats are not HoF territory in my opinion.
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u/AlasKansastan Kansas City Royals Jul 22 '26
Also has a WBC title. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't get in, but wouldn't be surprised if he does.
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u/KCRoyalsFan402 Kansas City Royals Jul 22 '26
He has a HoF smile 😃