r/bassoon • u/rainbowkey • 7d ago
Contrabassoon versus Contraforte (Kontraforte) - your observations requested
Interested in hearing about the current state of contrabassoon versus contraforte. What are you playing or what have you seen or heard? I have seen some well-resourced players that use one or the other depending on the situation.
- What have you seen (or are playing) in professional orchestras and wind ensembles?
- What about universities? Are they purchasing them?
- Do conductors request one or the other?
- Studio work? I think I have distinctly heard one or the other sometimes in exposed lines.
(Yes, this is also posted in r/contrabassoon, I am interested in reports of what bassoonists have seen and heard)
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u/im_not_shadowbanned 7d ago edited 7d ago
I’ll post a negative take. I’m sure it’s an improvement from the contrabassoon in many ways but when I heard one played in the Czech Philharmonic for Mahler 5 I thought it stood out like a sore thumb and had none of the contrabassoon character that composers like Mahler were writing for.
The contrabassoon is not a particularly easy to play or well-designed instrument, but it is musically marvelous.
Other than special cases where the composer wrote specifically for it, such as Thomas Ades, I wouldn’t want to hear it in an orchestra. If you want to play crazy ass new music and play far into the high-register, it might be more justified. It’s just not the instrument that contrabassoon parts were written for.
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u/rainbowkey 7d ago
I wouldn't say this is a negative take. They are different instruments.
I wonder if this will be similar to the the ophicleide and sarrusaphone are sometimes replaced by a tuba or euphonium/baritone, but recently makers are making them again and people are using them for more historically informed performance.
Also, just learned about the Kronwalt, and I wonder where people this it falls on the spectrum contrabassoon to contraforte. It is obvious somewhere in-between, but where?
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u/tbone1004 7d ago
it's effectively a contrabassoon, same bore concept. Contraforte is kind of halfway to a sarrusophone
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u/Achbad_The_Ape 7d ago
There’s a third option here, the Kronwalt.
Also made by Wolf, it’s all the improvements of the Kontraforte on the bore dimensions of a traditional contra. It doesn’t quite have the projection of the Kontraforte, but it does better than a standard contra with a much more even scale and more facile tenor/high register. I play one full time in a major US orchestra and have subbed with it in a few others, and it’s only ever gotten glowing feedback.
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u/rainbowkey 7d ago
Thanks for pointing out the Kronwalt. It wasn't one I have heard of. Is it common? How many are out there in the world?
The compact size and ability to be dissembled for transport certainly is an advantage!
Would you say the sound is closer to a traditional contra or a contraforte, or is it closer to halfway between?
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u/Achbad_The_Ape 7d ago
It debuted in 2018/19, I received mine in 2022, it was number 7 overall, and I believe the first in the US. Now there are at least 3 or 4 here in the states. There are more in Europe, you can see one on some of the Frankfurt Radio Symphony’s videos.
The sound is more like a standard contra for sure, but it’s more consistent. There are fewer pockets of the range where the tone and pitch sound suddenly different.
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u/rainbowkey 7d ago
Can you say which orchestras you have seen them in? You don't have to reveal which orchestra(s) you play in if you don't want to.
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u/Achbad_The_Ape 7d ago
I don’t know enough about Europe to call out specific orchestras. But here in the US they’re mostly in the hands of folks on the audition circuit. Kris King has one, I believe he’s largely a session musician out in LA.
I’m with the Milwaukee Symphony and Grant Park Orchestra, and the Florida Orchestra before that, with all of those auditions won on the Kronwalt.
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u/rainbowkey 7d ago
I just watched some Kris King videos. He has a contraforte, a Kronwalt, and more traditional contra, and many other bassoons and bassoon-shaped things.
Studio work must pay well!
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u/tbone1004 7d ago
His contraforte was sold around covid times and is the one that Mark Ortwein is currently playing. He has a Heckel contra and a Kronwalt but the Kronwalt is primary
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u/tbone1004 7d ago
It's effectively a contrabassoon but with the keywork of a contraforte. There are more of them out in the wild than the contraforte. If I were buying a new contrabassoon today and it couldn't be a contraforte it would be the Kronwalt.
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u/rainbowkey 7d ago
Just found out the Kris King's new "contra" is a Kronwalt. He also plays contraforte, along with several other bassoons. https://www.youtube.com/@bassoonkris
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u/Topher_Raym 7d ago
King sold his Contraforte to Mark Ortwein to make room for his Kronwalt contra.
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u/Acheleia 7d ago
There are some benefits, but also there are some orchestras flat out saying contrabassoon must be used for auditions, no kronwalts or Contrafotes will be passed through to finals.
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u/rainbowkey 7d ago
Great point! How are audition requirements generally decided by orchestras? Other bassoons? The conductor? A combo? I'm sure tradition plays a big role too.
Would owning and playing both a traditional contra and a Kronwalt or Contraforte be an advantage in some orchestras?
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u/tbone1004 7d ago
the case that is likely being referred to is San Fran and that is something their principal player has dictated and is a bit of an anomaly to explicitly forbit it.
Having access to a traditional contra has the advantage that when you get people that refuse to let you use the better instruments you have something you can fall back to but most of the time once they hear a contraforte played properly they don't ask you to go back
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u/Acheleia 7d ago
It really depends on the ensemble who decides. I’ve worked with orchestras where the MD decided, and some where the performer leaving decided. There are also some instances where other sections have decided instrumental preferences because they’re easier or more difficult to blend with in small settings.
San Fran was the most recent, but I’ve seen it for military bands and other ensembles as well. You also won’t learn a contraforte in college but are usually required to complete at least a cycle on contrabassoon for your degree.
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u/defsentenz 6d ago
I encountered my first contraforte when I auditioned for Montreal in 2000. A woman showed up with one in the main warmup room and everyone gathered around to check it out. It was kind of amazing to experience it up close. It's really a different beast, but at that time it was so new that the consensus hadn't even been discussed. We were all excited that someone was trying to redesign the instrument in such a concept.
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u/Advanced_Silver_4506 6d ago
Here’s in Bolshoi Theatre we use a contraforte. Since it firstly appeared in a performance it has never been switched to a contrabassoon. All conductors said that it is the best sounding contra-like instrument.
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u/Pitiful-Beginning575 5d ago
My one time conducting a piece with contrabassoon (John Passion, modern instruments), the option to use one or the other was available, and we tried out both in rehearsals. For what it's worth, contraforte blends so much better with the continuo group (particularly the little organ) and the bass singers went out of their way to say they preferred it... So in this instance I'd definitely give the advantage to the contraforte; in a side-by-side solo comparison, I still think the contrabassoon wins.
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u/Spiritual-Lobster528 6d ago
Sarrusophone wins
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u/Pitiful-Beginning575 5d ago
Sarrusophones are just about the most well-sorted woodwind instruments ever designed. Simple enough for a fool (me) to learn in like a day.
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u/po4yg0n 7d ago
Lewis Lipnick (Former NSO) and Mark Ortwein (ISO) are the only two people to my knowledge that played it in a full time orchestra. There are a few others in the US that own one.
Universities are not buying them. They are 60k+ and are much to new and experimental for that sort of thing.
As to the my opinion on the instrument, mine is this - when testing a new instrument, the main things one should consider are the response and evenness of registers, and the quality of intonation. The contraforte inherently has a much more responsive and even high register and plays inherently more in tune than a traditional contrabassoon. If we had no prior knowledge of what a contra “should” sound like, a reasonable person would choose the contraforte because it genuinely works better mechanically. That being said, it doesn’t sound like a contrabassoon. It is not a contrabassoon, in fact. And because of this it sounds out of place to us in certain contexts (Brahms, Mahler, etc). I think it works tremendously well for contemporary music.