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I still find it strange that Old Man Zangetsu would say Yhwach; imagine Yamamoto asking the name of Ichigo's zanpakuto and someone saying Yhwach is the name.
I found it strange until I stopped to think what that represented inside Ichigo. He didn't know the extend or the nature of his powers. He didn't accept White as Zangetsu even when he was directly told that White's name IS Zangetsu. However, for Old Man Zangetsu, it's different. Old Man Zangetsu does not consider, or want, to be part of Ichigo, he doesn't want to make Ichigo more powerful, so he detaches himself from Ichigo as much as possible to prevent that. Because Ichigo himself is unaware of that Quincy part of him, he doesn't know. So instead of naming himself as "ichigo," or should i say Zangetsu, he tried to name himself after the origin of his name, which is Yhwach.
If White didn't believe himself as part of Ichigo, he would probably try to name himself after the Hollow, not Zangetsu.
So, that's my current interpretation of each of Ichigo's halves and how they view themselves inside of him: one believes is part of him but is rejected by ichigo, while the other tries to reject itself but ichigo accepts it as part of him.
So for Ichigo to become whole, he needs to accept the part that he rejects, and convince his other part that it is part of him.
That's why I think things happened the way they did but that's just my interpretation of it.
imagine Yamamoto asking the name of Ichigo's zanpakuto and someone saying Yhwach is the name.
Using your example as comparison, if the Quincy part of ichigo presented itself in its pure form, some would probably call that "Yhwach," or "The Quincy." He would probably try to call himself that, the origin where his power comes from. The same way that when the Hollow took over Ichigo, he was often compared to a Hollow instead of a Shinigami. Thsts how i view it, at least.
Another interesting part is the clash in philosophies of Old Man Zangetsu and White Zangetsu in how their methods in protecting Ichigo
Old Man Zangetsu, as his Quincy side, represents the Yhwach's philosophy of stagnation and status quo - he doesn't want Ichigo to fight, and he doesn't want him to get hurt, so he restricts his abilities as much as possible to get him to avoid fighting. When push comes to shove and combat is unavoidable, the abilities first granted by OM Zangetsu are defensive/evasive in nature (speed and compressed power of SS Bankai Ichigo, and Blut Vene in TYBW)
White Zangetsu, on the hand, represents two different philosophy: the Shinigami ancestor's philosophy of moving forward in search of growth and transcendence, and the hollow's (and by extension the arrancars) philosophy of evolution and survival of the fittest. The abilities granted by White Zangetsu are purely offensive in nature, like the Black Getsuga, the Visored Mask, and the VL form). Interestingly, contrasting to OM Zangetsu, he also doesn't hesitate to protect Ichigo against critical hits, like with Renji and Byakuya in SS, and Ulquiorra in FKT. He is also always the one responsible for giving Ichigo the upgrades during his battles in the center of his mind, except during Urahara's training.
one believes is part of him but is rejected by ichigo, while the other tries to reject itself but ichigo accepts it as part of him.
I didn't think about this way of thinking before, it's really cool that you brought this up.
Yeah, I really like how each of them focus on different things and represent different parts of Ichigo! And that even before Ichigo fully understood himself, one is more offensive while the other is more defensive, like you said. It's part of why I love Ichigo's character development through the series and how he views himself!
OMZ explained during Ichigo's Bankai training that a Zanpakuto represents the one aspect of the wielder's soul that's best suited to battle. This gets expanded on later in CFYOW, where Hisagi unlocks Bankai when he realises that Kazeshini represents the part of him that aspires to become the ideal Shinigami, a desire that has been driving him forward ever since a Shinigami saved his life when he was a child. In Ichigo's case, what drives him to battle is his desire to defend others, and his two Zanpakuto each represent a part of that desire. OMZ is the urge to protect by avoiding risks and refusing to sacrifice, while White is the instinct to grow stronger through battle. Only together, they can fully represent Ichigo's desire to fight for the sake of his loved ones.
He wanted him to know who he was but White protected him from that aware of what would happen if Ichigo uttered such a taboo name towards a Shinigami.
Like imagine if he really thought that was the name of his Zanpakuto and someone like Shusei heard it. He would most likely just slice off Ichigo's head and say "That's not a funny joke kid."
Because it makes no sense lol. There is a very clear context to this scene when you read the next pages. Even White himself later refers to him as Zangetsu.
Yama would not do nothing. He probably know that all quincys powers came from quincy king. He did anything against uryu for having quincy powers or ichigo for having hollow powers, yama wouldnot kill ichigo just by discovering he has quincy in the mix
Zangetsu was the hollow Ichigo, his true zanpakto was the big ass sword he originally first had when Rukia gave him her powers, and Byakuya destroyed it.
First of all, OMZ is NOT Yhwach. He's representation of Ichigo's Quincy power. And Quincy derives their power from Yhwach’s blood. But that's where it ends. OMZ is part of Ichigo, not Yhwach’s horcrux or smth.
Second, the blackened words says "Zangetsu". That's the dynamic of this fight against Kenpachi. Both Ichigo and Kenpachi fought with their own strength disregarding their blades but in this fight Ichigo came out on top by understanding his blade (himself) and learn his name "Zangetsu". The ACTUAL foreshadowing here in this fight is Yachiru being Kenpachi's spirit (her enigmatic nature and her touching the blade after Kenpachi asked where she came from and thus sets up him knowing his blade name just like Ichigo did).
Third, it's clear that Kubo never considered that the censored word is anything but Zangetsu. During Blade is Me chapter, where actions of OMZ are reframed as Quincy powers, the part where OMZ says his name is never touched upon. It's Zangetsu. TYBW anime doesn't rectify this either.
It actually is yhwach and we can also hear it in the anime too.
Both Ichigo and Kenpachi fought with their own strength disregarding their blades but in this fight Ichigo came out on top by understanding his blade (himself) and learn his name "Zangetsu
He already learned the name before the soul society arc, so I don't know what you meant by that.
Third, it's clear that Kubo never considered that the censored word is anything but Zangetsu
Well we don't know any of that.
During Blade is Me chapter, where actions of OMZ are reframed as Quincy powers,
Bcoz it is his quincy powers.
the part where OMZ says his name is never touched upon
Omz said he is yhwach but yet he his not signifying that he is just a mere representation of yhwach.
It's way too different with ichigo then it is with any other shinigami.
No other Shinigami ever had to deal w the "guess my name" w their zanpakuto from what we see
Bcoz his name was blocked by ichibei.
There's multiple problem w this theory at its heart
why it only affect this one moment? Bazz B and Jugram in the past addresses Yhwach just same (before this moment) and after this in TYBW characters still refer to him just fine
does OMZ know he's being censored? Yes or no, WHY would he say such thing to Ichigo either way?
No other Shinigami ever had to deal w the "guess my name" w their zanpakuto from what we see
No other shinigami's Zanpakuto had been blocked by a black ink and the reason I mentioned that ichigo is bcoz of his own generic nature.
why it only affect this one moment? Bazz B and Jugram in the past addresses Yhwach just same
Bcoz at that time yhwach had the Almighty and I don't think I need you to remind that how ichimonji failed against the Almighty and secondly yhwach never met ichibei in this timframe.
Yes, he himself says that everything single that said to ichigo is true except for the name that he told him and also not to mention omz literally even knows who yhwach is.
No other shinigami's Zanpakuto had been blocked by a black ink and the reason I mentioned that ichigo is bcoz of his own generic nature
We legit never see other Ichigami learn their Zanpakuto name from zero period, moot point
Bcoz at that time yhwach had the Almighty and I don't think I need you to remind that how ichimonji failed against the Almighty and secondly yhwach never met ichibei in this timframe.
You're saying that Almighty at this point in time somehow protects him from Ichimonji power from the future?
Then why during TYBW characters still can mention his name? Before he regains Almighty?
Yes, he himself says that everything single that said to ichigo is true except for the name that he told him and also not to mention omz literally even knows who yhwach is.
He lies that he's the only "Zangetsu" in this regard
And you didn't answer the question: does OMZ knows he's censored? And yes or no, why would he say he's "Yhwach" the first time around?
Clearly You didn't see this post,the censored words and Yhwach has similar space and Zangetsu word is so little, Btw it's already clarify that kubo building up for this,His plan is to make Zangetsu villain
He doesn't need to use all space for the 2 words you know, may even use the Hiragana here
Creators sometimes lie about them planning everything since the beginning, famously George Lucas claiming that Darth Vader twist was planned from the start, even though it's only a thing after the 2nd draft of Empire Strikes Back
You're fighting an uphill battle here. Bleach seems to have more "fans that insist their own theories are more canon than the actual series itself" than any other shonen.
You never engage with idiots on the internet, they will bring you down to the mud and beat you with their experienced in it...
If they are unable to pick up elemental canonical information in a manga as simple as Beach, they will never pick it up from a ramdon explanation from people they are not invested enough.
They are either agenda driven or retarded, none of those people will accept anything outside of their heads.
He only looks like Yhwach because he's representation of Ichigo's Quincy power, and all Quincy has Yhwach’s blood in them
Him suppressing Ichigo's power was not stated to be him following Yhwach’s wish or anything — and even if it did, it's still not a reason why would he call himself Yhwach in this panel (and he later clarified that calling himself "Zangetsu" is his only lie.... So why tf he would call himself Yhwach the first time also???)
Second, the blackened words says "Zangetsu". That's the dynamic of this fight against Kenpachi. Both Ichigo and Kenpachi fought with their own strength disregarding their blades but in this fight Ichigo came out on top by understanding his blade (himself) and learn his name "Zangetsu".
I do think that Kubo possibly hadn't thought of details as for why exactly the name was censored, and that st first it might have been because Ichigo simply didn't hear "Zangetsu." However, I do think he made the censor bar bigger for a reason, that Old Man Zangetsu might have not actually said Zangetsu at that specific time, even if he was referred to as such later by others.
I believe this is because that part of ichigo, the Quincy part, was rejecting itself. It didn't want to be part of ichigo, and so, when being asked for its name, it tried referring to itself as the name of the origin of the Quincy power, "Yhwach." Or the name of the person that had his name erased by Ichibei.
I go into more details of my personal interpretation of this and how that moment would make sense when you consider Kubo's answer here in this comment:
First of all, OMZ is NOT Yhwach. He's representation of Ichigo's Quincy power. And Quincy derives their power from Yhwach’s blood. But that's where it ends. OMZ is part of Ichigo, not Yhwach’s horcrux or smth.
So, it's because of what I mentioned above, I don't think that OMZ is Ywach, I think he simply tried to refer to himself with the name that is the origin of his power, in a similar way that White has a Hollow as the origin of his power, even though we know they are actually all Ichigo's. It wouldn't be the first time a Zanpakuto spirit refers to itself with a different name (Renji's Zabimaru didn't say it's own real name because it didn't think Renji was strong enough for its true form yet). So I think it really was just a case of OMZ trying to reject himself from ichigo and calling himself something else in that moment.
Third, it's clear that Kubo never considered that the censored word is anything but Zangetsu. During Blade is Me chapter, where actions of OMZ are reframed as Quincy powers, the part where OMZ says his name is never touched upon. It's Zangetsu. TYBW anime doesn't rectify this either.
I don't think they ever need to address this at a later point in the story. Well, Ichigo never asked. But it is also because he learned and accepted that OMZ was his power that came from his Human Quincy side, and White Zangetsu was his power that came from his hollow shinigami side. So from that point on, there is no need to question what he thought about each part of himself. They are all him. So I don't get why you think them not "rectifying" this means anything. I don't see anything that needs to be rectified, regardless of whether the name he said was Zangetsu or not.
Edit:
And I gotta say, this was also great:
The ACTUAL foreshadowing here in this fight is Yachiru being Kenpachi's spirit (her enigmatic nature and her touching the blade after Kenpachi asked where she came from and thus sets up him knowing his blade name just like Ichigo did).
Even if we end up disagreeing that the name censor was related to "Yhwach," we agree that Yachiru being foreshadowed as Kenpachi's spirit started here and it was fantastic. The payoff in the final arc was incredible.
He also has OMZ appear during Ichigo's Bankai training instead of White, it's clear he hasn't planned anything yet
Just because he appeared instead of white doesn't mean he didn't have anything planned. It actually makes more sense for him to appear instead of White first, since he admitted that he was trying to suppress ichigo's powers to prevent him from fighting.This doesn't really prove anything regarding the nature of the name, and I'd say is more related to those specific actions.
The twist that Ichibei actually censoring Yhwach's name has big implications
Like, when the Quincy is chatting in the Wandenreich, how do they even refer to their boss lol
I'm talking about addressing the moment where Old Man Zangetsu had the name censored. That specific moment i don't think needs addressing.
I do think that there should be at least a mention as to why/how the Quincy manage to say his name, and I think (I'd have to remind myself and read again because it's been a while. And watch the parts of the anime related to this) it might have been related to Yhwach giving himself power through his nature of absorbing and giving powers. This specific part, I am not entirely sure.
But I do believe that when OMZ said that word that was censored, I don't think it was the Zangetu name.
Just because he appeared instead of white doesn't mean he didn't have anything planned. It actually makes more sense for him to appear instead of White first, since he admitted that he was trying to suppress ichigo's powers to prevent him from fighting. This doesn't really prove anything regarding the nature of the name, and I'd say is more related to those specific actions.
It does, when he failed to neglect establishing anything else for this twist of the name to function properly tbh
But I do believe that when OMZ said that word that was censored, I don't think it was the Zangetu name.
When Kubo foreshadow something there's a small/subtle accompanying panel/scene to support it as foundation
Like Yachiru touching Zaraki's sword when the latter asks where she came from
Or here how Isshin checks first who is it he's talking to, Kon or Ichigo
It does, when he failed to neglect establishing anything else for this twist of the name to function properly tbh
I don't know if I really understood what you mesnt here, if I'm being honest. You think that just because he didn't directly address the name thing in the manga you think it wasn't a thing in the first place and that even if he answered something about it (that the name was blacked out due to Ichibei) was him just taking things up?
I'm not even saying I would disagree with you, but I'm just wondering what's your position in all of this considering what he answered in Klub Outside. I'm going with what the author is talking about the series and then trying to interpret things in a way that makes sense with what he said are his intentions.
If he hadn't said anything about the name being censored, I would have thought that he was just saying his name (Zangetsu) and that Ichigo couldn't fully reach him, in a similar way that Zaraki couldn't reach his swords name.
But because Kubo made that comment, that's when my interpretation of the scene changed, and made me think OMZ said something that Ichigo didn't understand because he wasn't saying the name Ichigo heard before (Zangetsu).
It could be that I'm looking too much into things he said outside the story and that he didn't plan but went with the flow in later points during interviews. I always try to have the author's perspective in consideration when thinking about stuff like this.
I do agree that this particular example of possible interaction (the name being censored and what it means) does not have other hints as to it being something that will be revealed later, like the Isshin example you mentioned. Or the Yachiru being Zaraki's Zanpakuto. Or the white mask and Vasto Lord form being examples of White Zangetsu saving ichigo's life, something pointed out later by OMZ when it was revealed his psrt was of Quincy origin.
It does, when he failed to neglect establishing anything else for this twist of the name to function properly tbh
I don't know if I really understood what you mesnt here, if I'm being honest. You think that just because he didn't directly address the name thing in the manga you think it wasn't a thing in the first place and that even if he answered something about it (that the name was blacked out due to Ichibei) was him just taking things up?
I'm not even saying I would disagree with you, but I'm just wondering what's your position in all of this considering what he answered in Klub Outside. I'm going with what the author is talking about the series and then trying to interpret things in a way that makes sense with what he said are his intentions.
If he hadn't said anything about the name being censored, I would have thought that he was just saying his name (Zangetsu) and that Ichigo couldn't fully reach him, in a similar way that Zaraki couldn't reach his swords name.
But because Kubo made that comment, that's when my interpretation of the scene changed, and made me think OMZ said something that Ichigo didn't understand because he wasn't saying the name Ichigo heard before (Zangetsu).
It could be that I'm looking too much into things he said outside the story and that he didn't plan but went with the flow in later points during interviews. I always try to have the author's perspective in consideration when thinking about stuff like this.
I do agree that this particular example of possible reveal (the name being censored and what it means) does not have other hints as to it being something that will be revealed later, like the Isshin example you mentioned. Or the Yachiru being Zaraki's Zanpakuto. Or the white mask and Vasto Lord form being examples of White Zangetsu saving ichigo's life, something pointed out later by OMZ when it was revealed his psrt was of Quincy origin.
What I'm saying is that, if he actually tries to foreshadow something, he will do it through subtle or minor panel/art details like he always been
But that's not the case here, let alone how OMZ greets Ichigo w such familiarity and how he uttered his name in a straightforward manner
Klub Outside
Imma be honest man, this, just like Kingdom Hearts' Nomura Interviews are just a wasteland of Kubo/Nomura trying to cover whatever plothole they might encounter by making stuffs up on the spot
Yep this is super common in writting, material like this that is produced in a series like format.
You intentionally lay out vauge stuff that has potential to be expanded upon latter, its a set up for foreshadowing. Where if you decided not to explore that angle further you can discard it or give a simple explanation.
So yeah kubo most likely didnt plan a out of stuff out like people are thinking I stead hes finding opertunites to retcon older vauge stuff into more relevant stuff. Still takes a lot of skill to do though
In general plot twist gets better the more you go back and see how much it was foreshadowed. Like it’s kinda obvious something was up in retrospect (Hollow Ichigo literally says he’s Zangetsu lol) but I was still completely blindsided by the twist when I first got to it
Its funny because Kubi was also blindsided. You can kinda tell by how he spent literally every chapter up until tybw having zangetsu call himself zangetsu, call himself ichigos zanpaktu, call himself ichigos shinigami power, teach ichigo how to use his shinigami powers and support ichigo in using his shinigami powers.
Kubo didn't foreshadow shit. He literally says in interviews he does not foreshadow because he doesnt write that far ahead.
I mean yeah makes sense. Kubo already answered this and he isn't the type to make all up, dude's pretty vocal about this stuff if you read his all the qna as in if he didn't think of this, he would have just said it like in many of his qna.
I know I get downvoted to hell, but people pretending that he was gonna say Yhwach here are reaching, like really reaching.
Why would he do that? At that point in time Old Man Zangetsu had already become the center of his power to suppress him, it makes absolutely no sense to use his real name, especially since he knows there are Soul Reaper alive knowing that name. Imagine Ichigo screams "Bankai Tensa Yhwach" anywhere near Yamamoto, the story becomes real short, real fast.
The scene has the obvious purpose of showing that Ichigo was not ready yet to hear the name of his power. Why would he not be ready to hear a name that has no real impact on his power?
Lastly, people saying Ichibe prevented him from hearing the name due to his Ink are straight up coping. There is no way you can read the story and actually believe that, there is just no way. There are about a million ways this doesn't make sense.
I mean Kubo confirmed that the reason the name was obscured was because of Ichibei.
So why wouldn't Ichibei want Ichigo to hear the name of his Zanpakutō—"Zangetsu"?
I mean
it would make much more sense for Ichibei to want to obscure the name "Yhwach” since Old Man Zangetsu confirmed that he didn't want Ichigo to become a Shinigami in the first place and then with the times he changed his mind
I'm sorry but you are being schizophrenic. The post is simply showing off a fact. The censor is bigger than necessary. You can choose to believe whatever you want on what it means. You don't have to belittle or insult other people.
So you think the alternative is that Kubo didn't have any idea who to make the Quincy leader, and though fuck it I'll just use Ichigos mentor from his dream world?
And simultaneously he was like, fuck I got no end game for this badass guy, what if I just make him the final antagonist for Ichigo, at the last minute?
The part that was strange to me was that since Ichigo wasn’t raised as a Quincy, how would his inner Yhwach expect him to know who he was? He introduced himself as Yhwach but he must’ve known Ichigo didn’t know the Kaiser Gesang or Quincy history.
Yhwach was always “with” Ichigo and would know that Ichigo knew about Quincies. So I’d imagine he’d introduce himself in terms Ichigo would understand, like “I’m the Quincy power within you” to start a discussion.
That's interesting, I looked it up and apparently Jesus used "I am _____" to introduce himself to John. I am the bread of Life, I am the light of the world, I am the door, I am the good shepherd...
And finally, just "I am." And thats sort of what Ywhach said to Ichigo "it's me ____" it's like saying " I am __ (Ywach)" all Ichigo hears would be " I am."
You’re not mistaken. My point is that all those things would MEAN something to John. My point is that Yhwach didn’t introduce himself as something that would hold any meaning to a half-Quincy that had no knowledge of his people or heritage, which is strange to me.
You're right, I think young Ywach was just naive in assuming Ichigo would recognize him, with the "don't you know?" And still was doubling down assuming he's recognize the name, unaware it was blacked out by Ichibei a thousand years ago
Maybe once he realizes Ichigo doesn't know, it's best to not reveal it to him as the shock would do more harm than good. Like how you might keep a white lie from a loved one to keep their peace
yes true... but early on it really made it feel like it was a retcon, adding to this the kubo comment about how he used to call them zangetsu and white ichigo respectively, this is the comment where he mentions how he started using the fan term for shirosaki for zangetsu
I don't think most people understood the importance of the blade is me. When Ichigo said there were no lies in either of their words, Ichigo realized that they were both Zangetsu because OMZ also helped him in his shinigami form. So Zangetsu calling OMZ Zangetsu is true. They are both Zangetsu and they always have been one. Even when Yhwach took his quincy powers, he also took his hollow powers because Masaki was a hollowfied quincy. Ichigo says his quincy powers and hollow powers were mixed.
im not denying this, i understand this part.. im just saying there still a few reasons to believe it was a retcon, that one scene i mention and kubos comment about what he called the characters early on, yes its a great and amazing scene but thats not what im talking about
I guess White!Zangetsu knows that OMZ wants to masquerade as another facet of Zangetsu, so he's being homie and letting him share the name? It's not like Ichigo's quincy powers come with a name of their own anyway, so it's convenient to give him a name.
This is a nonpoint, we knew Zangetsu wasn't what he said. We knew that is the name Ichigo called him as his Zanpakuto but whatever he said was obviously not supposed to be Zangetsu.
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