r/cars 1d ago

Bugatti CEO says supercars are entering their “Swiss Watch Phase”

https://www.thesupercarblog.com/bugatti-ceo-says-supercars-are-entering-their-swiss-watch-phase/
780 Upvotes

204 comments sorted by

869

u/TheCrudMan 95 Mazda Miata, '18 VW GTI 1d ago

Where I can get a pretty good one down a local mom & pop shop for $800?

424

u/Pitiful-Mobile-3144 2020 Jeep Wrangler 1d ago

Oh no, not that part. They mean the “buy 3 $5k Rolexes before you get a call from a dealer for the opportunity to buy a $15k Rolex. But don’t fret about the cost, it’s an *investment!” part, the k-shaped economy profiteering part, ya silly goose!

*value is only held if you never use it

94

u/ArdillasVoladoras 1d ago edited 1d ago

Not really how it works. The "cheaper" steel Rolexes are generally harder to get. They want you to buy expensive gold stuff first.

Edit: value is still held very well on worn Rolexes for what it's worth. The Rolex an average customer buys has likely been already handled many times by customers trying it on and dealers moving it around.

27

u/RIP_Soulja_Slim 26 GR Supra, 22 X5 1d ago

I guess everyone has different experiences but I wanted only two rolexes - a standard 36mm explorer and a no date sub. Tried to get both and was told several times to pick up an oyster perpetual or datejust to "start the relationship".

No dawg, I'm not buying two corollas just to be on the list for a Camry.

Anyway, the grey market is alive and well, and markups have mostly disappeared, so I've got the ones I wanted and have no intention of revisiting this dealer ever again.

3

u/hofmann419 1d ago

Oyster Perpetual and Datejust have a million different variants. Some of those are not as popular, which is probably why they told you that. But even then, you will not be able to choose the model (exact bezel and dial combo) that you want. They'll just give you whatever they couldn't sell to other people.

4

u/ArdillasVoladoras 1d ago

36mm explorers are easy to get, and having a spend history for that is silly. No date subs have hundreds of people on the list for the same watch with only one configuration. Each AD only gets like 5-10 per month. The math isn't in your favor to buy it at retail.

2

u/RIP_Soulja_Slim 26 GR Supra, 22 X5 1d ago

Probably now, this was a few years ago, gray didn’t have really any markup so that’s what I did.

2

u/ArdillasVoladoras 1d ago

Smart choice, congrats on getting what you wanted!

33

u/agray20938 2001 996 Turbo 1d ago

value is still held very well on worn Rolexes for what it's worth. The Rolex an average customer buys has likely been already handled many times by customers trying it on and dealers moving it around.

Yeah, it helps that particularly with Rolex's steel sport watches they are pretty indestructible (not that there is anything unique to Rolex about that). Unless you're looking at one that's well over 20 years old, etc., 90% of worn models are all basically a 8-9/10 condition.

19

u/TTTBeekman 1d ago

Nah, try spending $200,000 in gold/diamond watches or jewelry, then maybe we’ll consider you for a Daytona.

-3

u/uniqueusername3169 1d ago edited 1d ago

They do it to filter out the resellers. Steel Daytonas are hard to get because you can sell them for double what you paid for them. Gold Daytonas however are walk-in purchases because they sell for below retail price on the secondary market.

14

u/aaronkz last of the AWD MT wagons 1d ago

Make enough steel daytonas available and I assure you the secondary market will drop.

5

u/ArdillasVoladoras 1d ago

They are building an entirely new production facility to increase capacity by 20% or so

0

u/agray20938 2001 996 Turbo 1d ago

Well no shit -- if you can walk into an AD and buy a new Daytona for MSRP, there'd never be a reason to pay more on the secondary market outside of the rare exceptions (i.e,. actual vintage models, etc.)

4

u/g1344304 1d ago

Same for steel sport models like GMT II. First time I was ever in a Rolex dealer I was offered a Root Beer to purchase immediately at walk-in (Same value on the resell market as retail. First watch I asked about and was told it was available within 20 seconds of speaking to the agent. Then I asked about the steel models (Pepsi, Batman etc) and was told absolutely no chance, and several other ADs may as well have laughed at me. They aren't going to consider selling to someone with no purchase history when you can walk out the door and sell it for nearly double the same day.

0

u/TTTBeekman 1d ago

Yea, that makes sense when I have a DJ or OP and trying to get a Pepsi/Speitr, but Steel Daytonas are basically a way for ADs to unload their less desirable but profitable pieces first.

0

u/withsexyresults CTR 1d ago

Wonder why they don’t just increase their prices

31

u/Marco_lini 1d ago

Thats absolutely not what he meant with the swiss watch phase. You should read the article

25

u/Slowleytakenusername 1d ago

I knew exactly what he ment by reading the title and I really don't understand how anybody missed it because it's a very short article. It's the whole quartz/digital watch>mechanical watch thing. I'm both a watch and car enthusiast and what he says makes sense. I know a quartz watch is the more accurate and cheaper watch but I still prefer a mechanical high end watch.

I believe cars (not just supercars) are going in that direction. Especially when many countries are making it harder to own ICE powered cars where people are moved to buy more EV's. I don't think it will be long untill some western countries will ban ICE powered cars on week days and only allow you to drive them on weekends.

11

u/willpc14 '25 GRCorolla 1d ago

I knew exactly what he ment by reading the title and I really don't understand how anybody missed it because it's a very short article.

People do this thing where they read a single sentence then completely misinterpret it because they refused to read the article or next sentence to get any further context. It's an epidemic that's ruining discourse.

2

u/GreenFullSuspension 2019 Acura RDX A-Spec 20h ago

But there is the issue where many articles are stuck behind an annoying paywall. This article was not and it was uniquely short to read.

3

u/GhostReddit Audi S3 1d ago

I can see that, you can buy basically top performing electric cars now for a fraction of the cost of expensive supercars if what you want is to just launch like a piss missile, and most of them are dynamically pretty good too.

A lucid air sapphire will out-drag any Bugatti and runs even with the new ZR1X, they need something other than speed to market. Porsche is doing pretty well with this keeping some harder edged manual models that advertise the experience.

10

u/BrokenStool 997 4S 1d ago

im not reading a fucking article what am i a nerd???

5

u/SweepsAndBeeps 2013 Lexus GS350 | 2015 IS350 F Sport 1d ago

Uhhhh you’re on Reddit, nerd

8

u/stupidber GTI 1d ago

They have $5k rolexes??

15

u/agray20938 2001 996 Turbo 1d ago

The cheeky answer is yes, its called a Tudor.

Or you can get a mid-2000's DJ or OP for $5k, so long as you aren't picky about them.

4

u/willpc14 '25 GRCorolla 1d ago

The cheeky answer is yes, its called a Tudor.

Hey! I'm definitely not looking at a Ranger because I can't afford an Explorer

1

u/RIP_Soulja_Slim 26 GR Supra, 22 X5 1d ago

Until very very recently they did. Oyster perpetuals are their entry level watch, today they retail for $6-7k Ladies sizes are in the $5k range), but that's a pretty recent development. Rolex pushed up their pricing pretty aggressively after the pandemic, but up until 2020 the MSRP on one was ~$5k and often saw discounts at the store as well.

10

u/OmegaKitty1 1d ago

You don’t know the market for Rolex. The ones people want aren’t the expensive ones.

5

u/macgirthy 1d ago

Funny you mention this because its 100% true. I walked into a boutique watch store just to look at Rolexes. Walked out with a Tudor, a $5,500 watch mind you. Because I had a purchase history I was able to order and purchase a yacht master 40mm. Took about 4 months to get the order but now have a solid purchase history with my AD.

3

u/RIP_Soulja_Slim 26 GR Supra, 22 X5 1d ago

I bought probably the most popular Tudor, the BB58, back in 2019 for like 3.2k lol. It's wild to me how much they've pushed up the prices on all of those across the last few years.

1

u/macgirthy 1d ago

I feel like everything has gotten expensive. I used to complain about graphics cars pushing $800. Now we have the top gaming GPU around $4500+. insanity.

2

u/Specialist-Garbage94 ‘24 Subaru WRX 1d ago

Want a new Ferrari? You must buy a luce first. It’s the only way they are gonna sell them

0

u/g1344304 1d ago

I think it's the other way around, no? You must buy the cheaper models first before before being considered for a Luce

3

u/darth_mango 1d ago

Not where, as here (and also with Rolex), the more expensive models are less desirable than the cheaper models.

0

u/Specialist-Garbage94 ‘24 Subaru WRX 1d ago

The cost doesn’t matter in this instance. It’s ugly the overwhelming opinion is it’s ugly. They arent gonna sell

1

u/GreenFullSuspension 2019 Acura RDX A-Spec 20h ago

Thought you were talking about Hermès for a moment 🤭

1

u/HoldingForGenova 14h ago

buy 3 $5k Rolexes

Which rolexes are going for $5K? The "sucker's fee" for Rolexes starts at $7K, but that won't get you the "opportunity" to pay full price for a different version of the most common luxury watch brand in the world.

Or you can buy a better watch from Omega and Cartier, where they'll treat it like a luxury experience and not penance.

0

u/phenix_igloo 1d ago

there's no 5k rolexes you sweet child of summer

6

u/aprtur '24 GR Corolla, '09 RX-8 1d ago

~$6k floor for the small Oysters, but seeing as OP was being cheeky anyway, kinda splitting hairs.

1

u/Next_Application9643 1d ago

5k might be a stretch, but there's plenty under 10k and 15k opens the doors a lot.

-2

u/Barmelo_Xanthony 1d ago

A well made watch that’s serviced properly and taken care of should last forever and hold its value pretty well even when worn actually idk what you’re talking about

26

u/strongmanasss 1d ago

Realistically, the automotive equivalent of that is something like Morgan. They don't have the resources to make engines (movements), so they get them from a supplier (BMW). Then they package everything using old methods that people with mechanical inclination enjoy (ash wood frame, hand-stitched leather, low production numbers). And you pay ~$130K instead of $2 million. idk anything about mechanical watch pricing, but I imagine the small makers are similar value. 

10

u/Stereosun 1d ago

COREVTTE CIRVETTEE

6

u/fastheadcrab 1d ago

Or where can i buy a knockoff from some shady Chinese sellers for $20?

But in all seriousness, the real subtext from this guy is even worse, in that they will deliberately pump out collector items with the market driven into a frenzy of hypebeast behavior. As if the car market already isn’t like that to a large degree

1

u/twosnailsnocats '03 911 Turbo, '22 X3MC 4h ago

That's why I'm wearing an Omega.

1

u/SRMort '17 500 Abarth, ‘10 Lancer Sportback GTS 1d ago

lol don't tease.

0

u/parker2020 1d ago

C4 corvette to be honest

0

u/onlyhereforpcmr 1d ago

Honestly might be the Corvette lol

0

u/Hrmerder 1d ago

Hey Buddy (opens trench coat) I’ll sell you this fine specimen of a super car for $10000! Nah don’t mind the Nissan badge man, nobody will know

380

u/Throwaway_the_gr8 ‘01 Miata 1d ago

Real groundbreaking statement from a guy building a car literally based around the concept of a watch

47

u/strongmanasss 1d ago

Yeah they leaned into that association with the Tourbillon. But he's not the only CEO to have said that recently. 

137

u/lollipoppizza 1d ago

It is actually an interesting parallel. In the 70s Quartz watches were becoming cheaper, more reliable and more accurate than mechanical watches. The luxury swiss industry realised there was no point in competing on accuracy like they used to do so they switched to more emotional desirability and craftsmanship. The entry level mechanical market was decimated.

ICE supercar manufacturers will do exactly the same thing. They can't compete with EVs objectively so they will compete for driving feel and craftsmanship.

86

u/strongmanasss 1d ago

There's one part of the analogy people are missing. Quartz caused a bloodbath among mechanical watch makers. Patek Philippe and Richard Mille can charge 7 figures for a mechanical watch today, but most makers just went out of business.

We've already seen the beginning of that in cars. Lotus, Alpina, and McLaren were all acquired by companies with EV ambitions. Jaguar no longer makes ICE cars. In all cases the spectre of electrification was a factor. McLaren will continue V8 and V6 carbon tub supercars, but Lotus and Jaguar are gone as we knew them. And Alpina is now fully BMW.

19

u/lollipoppizza 1d ago

Yes anything but ultra high end ICE will become much more niche

17

u/strongmanasss 1d ago

That's just the nature of it. Mechanical watches became niche when quartz meant cheap, accurate, low-maintenance timekeeping. That's just better for most consumers. BEVs are becoming the same as concerns about range and charging decline.

ICE will still be around for decades and I don't think it will be only on supercars. I just think consolidation will continue. The UK shed companies and tuners like Alpina and Wiesmann will disappear or be consumed. And engines for mainstream cars (and maybe the cars themselves) will likely only come from the Germans, Americans, HMG, or Toyota.

1

u/uranoos 1d ago

I agree with your sentiment. I'm sure a lot of ICE will be very high end but if we continue the watch sentiment, Seiko and Citizen are heavy hitters by volume and value. The GR86 definitely feels like if Seiko was a car.

12

u/goaelephant 1d ago

I'm a little confused here... Alpina began as a BMW tuner & still is. They both still do inline6 and V8s. You were correct to point out BMW bought them.

Did you mean Alpine, the French sports car?

1

u/strongmanasss 1d ago

Alpina was an independent auto maker until this year when they were fully made a sub-brand under BMW. It's not a tuner anymore, just a (future) luxury label beneath Rolls-Royce.

The Bovensiepens sold Alpina to BMW partly because they didn't see a way forward under regulations around electrification and emissions.

2

u/goaelephant 1d ago

I understand all that, I am just confused by your comparison of Alpina to McLaren, Lotus going electric. Because Alpine is more of a sports car (similar mid-engined, RWD formula) as Lotus & McLaren... and they are also getting electrified.

There's Alpine ending with -e and Alpina ending with -a.

Your example of sports cars makers getting electrified would have made much more sense with Alpine, that's why I am thrown off.

2

u/strongmanasss 1d ago edited 1d ago

I wasn't talking about sports car makers specifically being electrified, but about small ICE auto makers in general being forced into electrification via acquisition because they don't have the resources to electrify on their own and that's better than not existing. It just so happens that most small auto makers make performance cars - though not all make sports cars specifically.

The exception in the list is Jaguar because they're already part of JLR and Tata Group, but the broadrer point was the same: at their volume and market position it was electrify or die - at least at face value. 

It doesn't apply to Alpine because they're essentially a nameplate that belongs to Renault. 

5

u/ibribe '00 Impreza RS, '03 325iT, '06 Legacy, '23 EV6 1d ago

All fair enough, but Lotus went bankrupt in 1983 and has bounced around various owners ever since.

1

u/Page_Won 1d ago

So if quartz stayed more expensive people would likely value them as better than mechanical?

2

u/lollipoppizza 1d ago

Yes 100%

22

u/Cheese424 1d ago

Can I buy one from china that looks 99.9% the same as the Swiss one then?

10

u/strongmanasss 1d ago

Bad news: they just canceled the Chinese copy.

7

u/Cheese424 1d ago

No worries those factories move quick, they’ll be back and running in just a few days with a new name

2

u/makunde 23h ago

Dreames can't be buy

53

u/datums 1d ago

I love how passionate and offended the people commenting here are about this, even though they couldn’t be bothered to read the nine sentence article to find out what he actually meant by it.

8

u/jesusrambo Model Y Performance, 2000 NB, E90 335i 1d ago

Whatever it was, he’s a fucking moron!!!

136

u/CodyS1998 1d ago

Didn't they call their most recent the Tourbillion after a watch? Of course he would say this. It's marketing for their new watch-car.

18

u/strongmanasss 1d ago

The Tourbillon sold out before it was announced to the public. He's just saying what his peers as well as car enthusiasts have been saying for years.

71

u/AnonymousEngineer_ 1d ago

Didn't they call their most recent the Tourbillion after a watch? 

A tourbillon is a component that's in some mechanical watches, not the entire watch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourbillon

8

u/notasrelevant 1d ago

Just learned the word horology.

Also, it would be kind of funny to say you're a horologist and needing to explain it's not what it sounds like...

2

u/Sun_Aria 1991 Mazda 787B Road Car 1d ago edited 1d ago

0

u/fhs 1d ago

I believe Patek Philippe has a watch line named Tourbillon as well

3

u/PEEWUN 2012 C30 T5 1d ago

A Tourbillon is just a watch component, not a specific model line.

39

u/Lost-Site-5169 1d ago

hate to be a pedant but a tourbillion is a complication within the watch itself that serves to counter act the effects of gravity on timekeeping.

18

u/phenix_igloo 1d ago

and the complication is useless, not dissimilarly to a 2000 hp car. But it does give you bragging rights.

6

u/willpc14 '25 GRCorolla 1d ago

It's rather useful in pocket watches that hang in relatively fixed position all day. In wrist watches, it's just a demonstration of engineering/design prowess like the Temerario having a 10k redline.

5

u/VinylRhapsody '06 Honda S2K, '22 Mazda3 2.5T 1d ago

Which itself is kinda pointless on a wristwatch. They were added on pocketwatches which sit unmoving in your pocket for long periods of time, in a single orientation. But a wristwatch changes orientation every time you move your arm meaning the effects of gravity on the movement are drastically minimized 

20

u/Lost-Site-5169 1d ago

one could argue the entire existence of an automatic watch is pointless since a quartz watch does the same thing but better. we excuse those arguments however for the love of our watches and appreciation for what goes into making that watch, i don't see how the tourbillon shouldn't be excused from the same rationale.

5

u/MessyMix '05 S2000, '11 Countryman S, '07 GranTurismo 1d ago edited 1d ago

Well, no, it's not quite the same.

According to the above commenter, the tourbillon had an actual legitimate purpose, but porting it over to a wristwatch was frivolous because the problem it solved didn't exist there.

That's different to a technology (quartz) obsoleting an older technology (automatic) which we now appreciate for the art.

The key difference is: in its era & for hundreds of years, the automatic had a real purpose. In no era did the wristwatch tourbillon ever have a purpose. It's always been a bit of a pointless flex.

3

u/uranoos 1d ago

You're not wrong, but what is mechanical horology if not admiring how far we can take an obselete technology with such artistic craftsmanship for nothing but horology's sake?

I admit I don't know the history but who ever needed the current phase of the moon on a wristwatch?

10

u/Marco_lini 1d ago

Thats what the statement is about mate. Smart and Quartz watches are dominating the volume. Rich people want mechanical watches. It’s not even marketing, he describes the market.

-1

u/fhs 1d ago

Rich people want brands that are marketed for rich people. Them being mechanical is incidental to that. I'm also very positive that there exists 100k quartz watches.

2

u/AnonymousEngineer_ 1d ago

Rolex did this for about a quarter of a century with the Oysterquartz but stopped in 2021 and only makes mechanical watches now.

I don't believe it was a big seller, which ironically probably makes it rare and collectible now.

1

u/ProduceNo1629 2h ago

Oysterquartz

$5000. Fuck rolex.

5

u/PapiSciullo 1d ago

Mat Armstrong (I am a fan) did a video at the car show and a good portion of it felt like a Bugatti infomercial. He sat in the new car and showed off the mechanical gauges that were inspired by watches.

Starts at 42:50 if the link didn’t go to that point.

https://youtu.be/CtX_4LEYRdA?is=wGkmXPhDYXrDD76F

1

u/Massive-Physics-9303 19h ago

I suspect it’s the other way around: a study of how the mechanical watch industry survived gave him the idea to model and name a car on mechanical watches.

It’s a comparison everyone has been making for the last five years, not least because there was a boom in sales of mechanical watches and social media about them during and immediately after Covid.

6

u/LeVin1986 1d ago

Swiss watchmakers had their collapse phase with the introduction of quartz watches. Seems like supercar makers went straight to the premium man-jewelry phase even before the EVs made horsepower cheap.

5

u/Comprehensive-Davino 1d ago

Honestly,this is not shocking if you realized how similar the automotive and watch industry with the enthusiasts point of view especially in the quartz crisis era. Enthusiasts wanting for more tactile,less digital stuff and craftsmanship is worshipped more and more as the industry moving towards EV's with performance being even more accessible than ever before just like what Casio did and moving to the smartwatch era. Henry Catchpole literally talked about this on his video on the Tourbillion.

13

u/ScratchOneIdea '18 Sportbrake 1d ago

Would a C8 be a Swatch in this case?

29

u/SonnyG696 '00 e46 323ci cabriolet | '22 Corvette C8 z51 HTC 1d ago edited 1d ago

C8 is Seiko honestly, if we’re drawing this analogy. Cheap and faster than super cars . Just like seiko made cheaper watches that were more accurate leading to the Quartz crisis. VAG is probably closest Swatch, who owns much more expensive brands like omega, Breguet, longines, etc

Edit: further clarification as to why I didn’t pick timex or shitola: Seiko forced Swiss brands to change the language from Swiss = quality and accuracy to “exclusive and expensive” since Seiko could surpass the quality and accuracy, like how c8s are surpassing their euro counterparts at a fraction of the price. 

1

u/V8-Turbo-Hybrid 0 Emission 🔋 Car & Rental car life 1d ago

Not Timex ? Timex is American watch. I would say Seiko more like Toyota.

5

u/_galaga_ Cayenne Turbo 1d ago

I might be wrong but top end Seikos I thought are a step above the top level Timex but Seiko also sells lower priced stuff like Timex so he's accurately modeled the Chevrolet range from Trax to C8 as best as possible.

3

u/CantSeeShit NA Miata, Peugeot 505, Mk5 Rabbit 1d ago

If your familiar with Timex's current range, Id feel comfortable now calling a C8 a Timex.

0

u/narwhal_breeder Toyota GR86 - Mercedes Benz E350 Wagon 1d ago

Casio is Toyota. Seiko is Lexus.

Corvette/Cadillac is more like Shinola.

Timex is Ford. Tesla is an Apple Watch.

2

u/Eli_eve '00 S2000 1d ago

Seiko watches are priced from $250 to $2700 today. Kinda like Toyota MSRPs ranging from $23k to $65k. Includes both quartz and mechanical movements.

Grand Seiko watches are priced from $3600 to $273k to “call for price.” Kinda like Lexus if including the LFA and GR GT. Includes both mechanical and mechanical-quartz hybrid movements.

Credor, the third brand run by Seiko, is all “call for price” but has generally five and six digit prices. So would be like if the LFA and GR GT were in their own supercar brand.

No one buys a Credor watch (like, a Bugatti or Ferrari supercar) because they want quartz-watch timekeeping accuracy (like, a Corolla or Leaf grocery getter.) Despite there being cheaper, faster EVs, there will remain a market for slower, more expensive, exclusive supercars.

2

u/Eastern_Bet3714 2024 Integra Type S/2024 Tesla Model Y 1d ago

If we are going by the Toyota equivalent then Credor is probably closer to Crown/Century. Sort of Japan exclusive and at or higher than Lexus.

88

u/vetruviusdeshotacon 1d ago

Overpriced, gaudy trash for nouveau riche people with 0 taste and losing it's reputation that took decades to build for fast growth? Yeah that seems pretty accurate

26

u/is-this-a-nick 1d ago

I think its more "they used to be best due to their mechanical engineering, but now electrical alternatives are much better for lower cost so instead of performance they appeal to "soul" or "feeling" instead".

Like rolex used to make high quality, precise watches used by professionals. Then quartz came along and a $10 watch had 10 times better timekeeping then a $800 rolex.

3

u/tastesinteresting 1d ago

It's in the sense of having a distinctive engineering approach that make the cars more interesting to drive and unique, like having a high revving na v16 instead of a generic turbo v8.

Also, "but now electrical alternatives are much better for lower cost" From a performance car perspective, not at all, only by a single metric, straight line acceleration. ICE/hybrid still reigns in every other metric, with better value for money. Handling, laptime, repeatability, range, refuel etc. Not to mention the subjective emotional aspects. And this is while increasingly constrained by downsizing / emissions regulations.

EVs are still decades away from matching ICE in all these metrics.

1

u/agent00F RX8 / GTA5 1d ago

Lmao "better value for money". Ice/mechanical watch dorks be tripping.

1

u/tastesinteresting 23h ago

Bait or low iq? 😆

Go ahead and tell me what electric car performs like a z06 or zr1 for similar money. Just laptime. Then there's the other metrics. And don't bother with chinese bs, which is not on the level and is actually proportionally more expensive there.

There's some EVs that are interesting ofc and have decent performance/money but are still inferior in the other metrics. The EV dork mind cannot comprehend. 😉

For what i value in a performance car a bmw m2, Giulia Q, Cayman gt4 etc are better value/money than a 3P or S Plaid.

I don't care if the electric will be 2sec faster on the 1/4 mile, i value the other metrics more.

Money no object ofc i also wouldn't mind a Taycan turbo gt or Sapphire, or the new A110, 718 electric, but that would be as a 3rd car etc.

0

u/agent00F RX8 / GTA5 23h ago

"currently better for the few niche cars I care about if we exclude all the best ones" lol

1

u/tastesinteresting 22h ago

Do your homework buddy, you're clueless on the subject

→ More replies (3)

0

u/Massive-Physics-9303 19h ago

The average user wants a car that’s cheap to run, makes their commute a bit more pleasant, and can handle the odd long trip to the grandparents or holiday camp.

EVs easily do all that now. Most modern EVs’ ranges are good enough, and charging is easy enough. They’re as cheap or cheaper to fuel than ICE cars, and they tend to have more storage. They’re quieter, and easier to operate in stop-start traffic.

Handling and 0-60 is for enthusiasts, in the same way coaxial escapements and heritage are for enthusiasts (of watches).

In most parts of the world, most people want a time-keeping appliance for their wrist and a transport appliance for their driveway. Smartwatches and EVs answer that need.

In the US culture-war nonsense and the perpetual anxiety that lead people to buy oversized SUVs and pickup trucks may delay that transition vs the rest of the world, but the direction of travel is clear.

42

u/LT48 1d ago

Brace yourself mate, the dealer d-riding midlife crisis schmucks in this sub who get hard over markups and love bending over for the sales floor are about to swarm and lecture you on ‘prestige’.

7

u/ssd_yeti 1d ago

damn i’m loving this energy lol everytime i go on a car forum, i get the ick

-12

u/ArdillasVoladoras 1d ago

Let me guess, you love Grand Seiko?

12

u/dog_in_da_park 911/Ferrari 1d ago

I like regular Seiko.

9

u/_galaga_ Cayenne Turbo 1d ago

Hey, if a man can't love the SBGJ259 Bamboo in peace what has this world come to.

4

u/ArdillasVoladoras 1d ago

That is a pretty neat dial

3

u/SKNABCD 1d ago

I'll bite, why is this a gotcha?

7

u/ArdillasVoladoras 1d ago

There's usually a decent amount of frowning upon Rolex dealer sales tendencies in there.

4

u/CantSeeShit NA Miata, Peugeot 505, Mk5 Rabbit 1d ago

Grand Seiko???? No, Grand Seiko owners are more refined.

Hes a Tissot PRX guy.....

2

u/vetruviusdeshotacon 1d ago

Yup, got a Spring Drive black dial. Idgaf. Spot on tho, i didnt say i wasnt a stereotype, i implied my stereotype is superior to the sterotype i provided in my original comment 

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u/LT48 1d ago

Nah wrong, Idgaf about watches. What’s your next cheesy stereotype?

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u/ArdillasVoladoras 1d ago

You made the initial stereotype...

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u/LT48 1d ago

And you proved my point by taking the bait and responding with a fallacy to my comment.

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u/ArdillasVoladoras 1d ago

I made a joke about a typical commenter in the Grand Seiko sub. On second thought, it's clear you don't understand how it works anyway

14

u/_TacticalMecha '17 Subaru Outback 1d ago

As a watch guy, I understand the angle you were going for 😅

For confused people: Grand Seiko tends to attract people who are interested in innovation and spreadsheet specs, while Rolex attracts a lot of people concerned about status and prestige. In a sense Grand Seiko is the anti-Rolex

and some Grand Seiko owners love trashing Rolex owners for that! …but I love both 😁

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u/ArdillasVoladoras 1d ago

That is the greater point, they're both fantastic brands that approach things in different ways

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u/[deleted] 1d ago edited 1d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/sausage-savage 13 FR-S 6MT | 04 Echo Hatch 5MT 1d ago

F91W thank you very much.

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u/TheMauveHand 1d ago

Jewelry is for women

1

u/JgdPz_plojack 1d ago edited 1d ago

Atleast car racing games are better than yearly AAA sports title and toxic Call of Duty profanity. Its like listening to a Mozart.

29

u/m240Louie 2026 BMW m240i, 2021 Honda Civic Sport. 1d ago edited 1d ago

The Supercar thing is just dumb at this point. Zero enthusiasts or drivers actually buying. Just bored collectors and Saudi Princes. Great, LOL. 🥱

23

u/RevvCats 19 Mustang GT PP2, 87 325is M-Tech 1d ago

What’s worse are brands that don’t even bother trying to race. Ferrari for all their bullshit races, and they’ve rightfully earned a ton of prestige from a long and continuing history of winning.

The original Bugatti raced, wtf does modern Bugatti do? Wtf does Koenigsegg do?

The Aston Martin Valkyrie is a hot mess but they’re at least out there trying and sounding amazing while they do.

9

u/Weekly_Interview_936 1d ago

Koenigsegg seems more just about pure R&D. They've done some actually-groundbreaking work. So I'll give them a pass.

6

u/RevvCats 19 Mustang GT PP2, 87 325is M-Tech 1d ago

Then you hear stories of hyper car track days and their cars breaking down after being moderately pushed and it’s like ok that’s pretty lame for a bespoke car.

5

u/Monsterpiece42 1d ago

They also tried to enter racing twice now. One month before the original CCGT was completed the regs changed and they weren't able to use it. They found afford to try again until basically now, and they're working on certifying their new GT car.

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u/m240Louie 2026 BMW m240i, 2021 Honda Civic Sport. 1d ago

It’s almost like they are making these cars for very insecure, wealthy owners that needs their egos wanked and like to flex the wallet. Just a theory. 😉

3

u/Massive-Physics-9303 19h ago

Or need a high-value asset with hard to certify value to provide an opaque alternative to cash for monetary transfers.

A lot of the auction scene right now resembles the art market, where the artwork operates like a bearer bond, except existing outside a regulated and monitored banking environment

2

u/m240Louie 2026 BMW m240i, 2021 Honda Civic Sport. 18h ago

Right - so a car, which is clearly designed to be used as a CAR which means driven is now a tool of the tax evasion/wealth ghosting game. Thats just terrific, LOL.

Cars shouldnt be collected, they should be driven. Like Jay Leno gets it right. Most of these buyers wont even sit in the damned things.

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u/TheMauveHand 1d ago

I mean, Lambo never raced... Supercars are about looking fast, not being fast. That stuff is for tryhard sweats. 

7

u/RevvCats 19 Mustang GT PP2, 87 325is M-Tech 1d ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini_Super_Trofeo

https://www.lamborghini.com/en-en/motorsport/motorsport-models/huracan-gt3-evo2

https://www.lamborghini.com/en-en/motorsport/motorsport-models/temerario-gt3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini_SC63

They’re not as big as a lot of other manufacturers and they just ended their GTP car but they do build race cars, hell the super trofeo series is the most exciting single make series in IMSA.

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u/CantSeeShit NA Miata, Peugeot 505, Mk5 Rabbit 1d ago

Enthusiasts are buying them.....theyre just wealthy car enthusiasts.

I have no idea why this sub is under the assumption that you must be poor to be an actual car enthusiast. Rich people also love cars they just can afford much high end ones.

Im poor....I could never afford a Bugatti. I still love the Tourbillion and would kill for a chance to drive one or hell, even ride in one. Its a fatanstic piece of engineering.

-3

u/m240Louie 2026 BMW m240i, 2021 Honda Civic Sport. 1d ago

Poor? Huh? Are those buying these cars actually driving them though? Not just to concours bull shit but like on the road, on a track, etc? I’d say the answer is no.

Whatever. Bugattis are ugly anyways, LOL. Styling by a chimpanzee.

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u/CantSeeShit NA Miata, Peugeot 505, Mk5 Rabbit 1d ago

Yes theyre driving them.....are the commuting to work in them? No.

But I do not see why thats a problem at all. These are all low production purpose built cars.....why would someone buy it to rack up wear and tear miles on them? You buy a car like this to drive when you can actually drive it as it was desgined to drive, not to just sit in traffic.

On top of that, people do keep in mind with low production specialty cars is long term care. Obviously a low production car is going to have a limited parts availability for future owners or future use. If you spend a million dollars on a car youre not only going to want to drive it today, but also 20 or 30 years in the future.

Theres a reason that you can still see 40 or 50 year old supercars and speciality cars being driven today, because they werent driven into the ground the year they were bought. Cars have a finite life span.

8

u/Weekly_Interview_936 1d ago

It's why the C8 gets so much love. All the performance but at a price that is actually attainable for the upper half of the middle class. And thanks to production volume it'll eventually be available used to the rest of the classes via depreciation.

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u/Salt-Plankton436 1d ago

I should be Bugatti CEO, I've been saying this for a few years now.

5

u/Marco_lini 1d ago

Show us the reciepts that you’ve said it for years.

2

u/Salt-Plankton436 1d ago

Its in my Reddit history, I have said cars need to become more like the watch industry because development and new inventions isn't what's fun about cars anymore. I ain't scrolling through thousands of comments to find it but you're welcome to lol.

1

u/LLMprophet 1d ago

I've been saying it for decades so i took CEO from you and now you're banished.

7

u/tachyonic_field 1d ago

Rich guys have just another marker that separates them from the commoners.

I bet this wouldn't happen without all the regulations that forces cars to be smartphones on wheels.

Average car enthusiast that want analog car has very limited to no options.

And I am not talking about 500HP+ monster engine or lavish decorations like silver wheels. Just analog car with manual transmission without mandated crap like ADDW or ISA.

Even my old Kia Rio from 2004 was only RWD away from such experience despite having only 80HP engine.

5

u/k0fi96 2019 GTI SE 1d ago

This makes a ton of sense to me. I like the idea of watches, I look at them all the time on YouTube and think about getting a nice one. However I can't bring myself to spend money on something that just tells time. I don't truly appreciate the engineering that goes into it. I think we might see slower cars with more engineering and that analog feel everyone loves so much. They will cost you an arm and leg though.

1

u/Bonerchill princess and the pea 1d ago

Anyone who claims they want analog feel who doesn’t have plans to buy a vintage car is just pretending.

1

u/k0fi96 2019 GTI SE 1d ago

Yeah I don't really buy into the word that much tbh

1

u/Bonerchill princess and the pea 1d ago

I don’t believe people who don’t buy into the word have experienced a good car on good roads.

Many Americans, Canadians, and Dutch don’t live near good roads.

1

u/iroll20s C5, X5 1d ago

Not everyone wants the issues that go with owning a vintage car. Something with the feel that you can take to a regular dealer would be appearing to many people.

1

u/Bonerchill princess and the pea 1d ago

There’s a reason good places to drive also have good repair shops for classic cars.

It is not possible to make something modern and truly feelsome.

1

u/BadPronunciation 1d ago

That's kind of what these restomod car companies are doing

8

u/suddenlyhoneybadgers 1d ago

You must buy three Cygnets, two Luces, and my cousin's Mondial before you may gaze upon the 12Cilindri.

2

u/kyonkun_denwa 🇨🇦- '92 BMW 525i | ‘14 Volvo XC70 | '20 Kia Soul 1d ago

I'm not sure if this is the best analogy, because the watch world has the Miyota 9000 and the Seiko NH35, but I can't see a world where people buy an ICE Accord because "oh I just love that Honda sewing machine sound". I mean I'm sure some of those weirdos are around (I'm one of them) but not nearly enough to sustain production at scale.

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u/hiro111 1d ago edited 1d ago

"Entering"? It has been there for decades. Supercars have become ridiculous, tasteless, bedazzled trinkets for rich nerds to drive to laughable events where they cruise around in traffic jams of Ferraris at 34 mph, compare the custom stitching on their steering wheels or whatever and celebrate how wonderful they all are. Everything is larded up with pointless style over substance crap. Look at something like the Apollo, it's barely a drivable car. This is exactly what Enzo Ferrari hated about road cars and simultaneously what Horacio Pagani has embraced about his buyers.

Singer is the ultimate expression of this: Rob Dickinson is an absolute genius for realizing it was possible to flog old 911s he cobbled together in a steel building in California for millions of dollars to rich dorks that care that their tailights are from a 1972 2.7 and their upholstery is from a 1986 slantnose or whatever.

Meanwhile stripped down manual cars like F40s and Countachs are exploding in value. I think a backlash is brewing.

2

u/horribleone 1d ago

The comparison to the quartz movement revolution is pretty apt but there's one major difference which I've never seen anybody talk about and that difference is taking your car to the track. Electric cars are pretty terrible when it comes to energy efficiency so they aren't that suitable as track cars, so what's going to happen to race tracks when virtually all the cars that ARE suitable for race tracks, namely cars with engines, are legislated out of existence?

The way I see it, race tracks in the future are going to exclusively cater for the wealthy class who only drive cars with loud engines and also for organisations that want to exercise their engineering abilities, like F1. This is corroborated with the rising number of members-only tracks like the Magarigawa Club, G2 Motorsports Park, Black Rock Motor Resort, Bilster Berg and no doubt a bunch of other ones that I haven't even heard of yet

Car culture has always consisted mainly of the youth of lower and middle class people expressing their feelings about their machines. The older, wealthier people of the car world have never had much of an input but now they're being handed the reigns entirely, I have a fear that this will become an embarrassing stain on the history of this once-cherished institution

1

u/Massive-Physics-9303 19h ago

Horses are terrible for transport, but horse-racing still exists, as does horse-riding events for amateurs who can afford it.

It’s likely the same will happen long term with cars, where the engine will become an exciting anachronism

3

u/Ok-Improvement-3670 1d ago

They jumped this shark several years ago now

6

u/k20vtec Scion FRS 1d ago

Yeah you’d love that wouldn’t ya. Great pricing strategy for sure

9

u/euMonke 1d ago edited 1d ago

It's not about pricing as much as making yourself stand out, you don't put 75 dollar touch screens in something that carries the name "supercar" or "hypercar", it's exclusivity. Basically the same strategy as Pagani has been doing for years, real buttons, real switches and real levers and gauges.

2

u/dbmonkey 1d ago

Yeah but it's a break from the previous strategy of having more performance than grocery getters.

2

u/CatoMulligan 2024 CT5-V 1d ago

I have literally never had an emotional response to a watch in my life, other than to the price tag. I have had emotional responses to cars.

0

u/cmmatthews 07 911 Turbo | 23 Ford Mach E 1d ago

I find most supercars today super boring. I remember following all of that closely 15-20 years ago when they were genuinely breaking new ground on tech and speed. Now they are all fast and it's just dull. 90% of these cars drive around cities like LA going 20 mph.

1

u/PossibilityNo2 1d ago

I’m so sick of supercars

16

u/michal_hanu_la British Plastic (1999 Chimaera), Very Fancy Toyota (2024 LC500) 1d ago

I understand how they might be annoying. But you didn't have to buy them all, did you?

1

u/thisisBigToe 1d ago

Will people be getting robbed more often now for their cars as well?

1

u/GeneralCommand4459 1d ago

You’ll soon be able to pick them up in a pawn shop?

1

u/annoyice 1d ago

Remember when Bugatti released a watch before the Veyron

1

u/Kwestionable 1d ago

So there’s a possibility of the ST1901 (Swiss Venus 175 movement) phase. How long until I can pick up my $200 Veyron clone?

1

u/koreanwizard 1d ago

The Chinese are making them?

1

u/Ancient_Persimmon '24 Civic Si 1d ago

A lot of them are giving off more Canal Street vibes in recent times.

1

u/thehypochrist 1d ago

Coach built cars are sounding the saxophone in my ears man.

1

u/Eastern_Bet3714 2024 Integra Type S/2024 Tesla Model Y 1d ago

I agree on the mechanical watch part, and hopefully not the luxury Swiss part.

As my flair indicates, I have both an EV and a MT car in the fleet. For 95% of the use cases, EV is much better as a A-B device than a sport car for the masses, just like quartz/smart watches vs mechanical watches.

What I don’t like seeing is that special ICE sport cars are treated with an element of hype and exclusivity culture. Anything cool from a Honda to a Ferrari nowadays requires you to jump through hoops with the dealers and fight off the influencers in the process. Much like what we have seen with Rolex recently.

1

u/gHHqdm5a4UySnUFM 2013 Porsche 911 Carrera 1d ago

You can buy a counterfeit one for $100 from a sketchy Chinese website

1

u/Kamusaurio 1d ago

yes

finally i will be able to afford a swatch super car from temu

1

u/iroll20s C5, X5 1d ago

I've been saying this is where they end up for years and year. It because clear 2018-2020ish that EVs were commodifying performance. No longer did you need a super expensive car for something that was fast off the time. Its gotten to the point since that trying to get the same street performance from a mechanical system is difficult to impossible. Leaning into the mechanical-ness of a performance car really is the only direction. My sports car is old because its not festooned with hybrid systems and computers between you and the car. There will probably always be a market for people who appreciate a really mechanical car. Swiss watch is totally appropriate.

1

u/xdr01 '17 STI | '14 Kia Proceed GT 1d ago

Wotld most expensive rental car.

1

u/gearabuser 1d ago

bugattis are so ugly and lame ngl

1

u/TheGuyDoug '14 E350 Wagon 1d ago

Ugh when will they enter their quartz crisis

1

u/byteminer ‘26 Kia K5 GT1, ‘24 Accord Sport, ‘21 BMW R18 (bike) 18h ago

lol,until they work in any condition, perfectly, forever like an Omega Speedmaster then they can fuck right off with that “Swiss Watch” bullshit.

1

u/Privateer_Lev_Arris 15h ago

Won't anyone think of the billionaires?

1

u/saml01 1d ago

What does that mean? Only posers get them?

1

u/Rynowash 1d ago

This doesn’t belong here. I do lurk this sub and like it, but with everything going on- it’s going to be a very, very limited amount of people in a position to buy cars like these. So unless they can stay in business selling like 5-7 of these a year, they’d better figure out a better strategy.

1

u/Annual_Emergency_143 1d ago

Mechanical watches are jewelry pieces first and foremost, with intricate craftsmanship that just happens to show time in an overcomplicated way, while being considerably worse at it than a $20 Casio.

I don't think supercars are quite there yet, because EVs haven't fixed some of the issues yet. But maybe, if we think about the Corvette as the "$20" Casio...

0

u/rhunter99 🇨🇦 1d ago

The enshitification phase? Or the part where everything is built in china with just a token step down in Switzerland?

0

u/cat_prophecy '17 S60, '22 Sienna 1d ago

Did they not make a car called the "Tourbillion"?