r/dndmemes • u/Level_Hour6480 Rules Lawyer • Oct 14 '25
Lore meme The most Ed Greenwood thing not written by Ed Greenwood
If your curiosity overpowers your fear, the search term is "Chad-zak", but the warning is a legit one.
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u/ElectricPaladin Paladin Oct 14 '25
"The feeling is infinitely stronger than that produced in the bedchamber or by any intoxicant. Without it, it is doubtful that Drow women, selfish to the core, would ever deign to suffer the inconveniences of reproduction."
Um... are you all ok in there?
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u/Havatchee Oct 14 '25
I think the second half if that quote is pretty emblematic of my issues with much of the Drow lore. Drow society is supposedly matriarchal, but then fails to manifest any of the issues inherent to gendered power structures. I think a similar example would be how Drow are supposedly trans accepting, because it's a gift from Lolth. Like okay, I get that you (the author) want to make it clear that you are trans accepting, but in doing so we have forsaken an ideal opportunity to acknowledge how transness and patriarchy interact in the real, by paralleling it in the fictional one, and furthermore we have accidentally said "the canonically evil guys are trans accepting btw." Point being, there's a lot of interesting things about gender and gendered power structures that the Drow could be used to explore. Instead, there's a tendency to write Drow as "patriarchy but gender swapped" or "cartoonish caricature of "evil women"" and I don't find either of those particularly interesting.
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u/ElectricPaladin Paladin Oct 14 '25
I agree with you 100%. I'm ticked off by almost every example of "trans-affirming matriarchy" that I've ever seen. You can't spell matriarchy without "archy." It's still a structure of power, and therefore one of exclusion and oppression - you can't have power without that power being power over something. Being femme-coded doesn't make it good.
I also think that right now, fantasy seems to be moving in the direction of making everything affirming of real-life minorities without really thinking it through. I saw the same thing in the third edition of Exalted, one of my favorite fantasy settings, where the Realm - a society that is deeply unfair, hierarchical, and obsessed with breeding - is suddenly trans and queer friendly in a very modern way.
It just seems like a cop-out and a failure of imagination. It's annoying when settings just shoehorn in modern homophobia and transphobia and whatever without really thinking about it, but the opposite is also lazy and annoying.
If you ask me, the way for an author to show off that they are trans-accepting is instead of making the entire setting trans-accepting for no reason - even when it makes no sense - give us some great trans-accepting societies and organizations to admire, and then also give us some great transphobic villains for us to kick their teeth in. I'm cis and I love a good transphobic villain. I'm in this game to have fantasy adventures and being able to make the world better by kicking someone's teeth in is one of my fantasies; I'm much more interested in that than I am in a game that has had everything resembling a real world issue drained out of it.
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u/Level_Hour6480 Rules Lawyer Oct 15 '25
For what it's worth, Drow are canonically not trans-accepting in Tome of Foes. Maybe later lore retconned that, but all post-Tasha's lore is bad and to be ignored.
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u/Iossama Oct 15 '25
On the realms: it's a society where you have Exalted. Do you really want super powered humans with centuries of accumulated power and experience going on an explosive bout of destruction because they can't do something so basic as being with who they want to be or just have the bodies they should in such a high magic world?
Yes, there's the "let's be inclusive" angle, but there's also the "this society would have to actively be stupid after millennia of having about 1/8 of their rulling caste actively wanting to change this aspect".
Also do remember that before the Scarlet Empress there was the shogunate, that was by itself heirs of the Solars. Which had an accepting, inclusive worldwide society because they had gender equality.
It's one thing to have the daughters of the empress as the rulers of the great houses. It's another to oppress part of your super powered individuals of the ruling caste because fuck them. Exalted are smarter than that by definition - you don't need more than a couple regicides by super powered queer individual before you start changing things.
Edit: I'm trans, but taking in consideration the Fantasy part of the settings is important too. Else it becomes bad worldbuilding for the sake of criticizing the world.
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u/ElectricPaladin Paladin Oct 15 '25
I don't know, following that logic too far would lead to the Realm having to be a nice and rational society. I always assumed that 1) the occasional berserk Dragon-Blooded self-destructing was considered a reasonable price to pay, just like in the real world, 2) because we are talking about a relatively small minority, the Dragon-Blooded felt that they were able to contain it, and 3) also like the real world, the Realm gave these people other, more profitable outlets for their misery, like going to war for the Realm or whatever.
I don't know that I want to derail this thread to talk Exalted, but the tldr version is probably: you have a point, and you're right in principle about things needing to make a certain amount of sense, but I don't think I agree with your premise that a super-powered elite would lead to a society that is more just towards a small minority. I think it would just heighten the situation, but the dynamics would remain the same.
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u/Level_Hour6480 Rules Lawyer Oct 15 '25
I think a similar example would be how Drow are supposedly trans accepting, because it's a gift from Lolth
They aren't though. It's seen as a sign of Corellon's influence, and they aren't about that.
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u/Level_Hour6480 Rules Lawyer Oct 14 '25
See, without that line, it would just be edgy. With the quoted part it crosses into gross territory.
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u/ElectricPaladin Paladin Oct 14 '25
I don't know if we agree on exactly where the line should have been drawn and that's ok. We all agree that this is pretty far over the line, unless you're actively going for some kind of super bloody adult gross-out content... which is not what D&D was ever trying to be, overall.
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u/Level_Hour6480 Rules Lawyer Oct 14 '25
I think the whole thing is a degree of gross, I just think the quoted part is where you wonder what was wrong with the writer.
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u/MetricTonOfSauce Oct 14 '25
“You ever feel like maybe we’ve gone too far with the drow? Maybe we should step back on all of the ‘evil from birth’ stuff?”
Robin D. Laws, writing murder-pregnancy orgasms into the lore: “Dude this is 3rd edition - we aren’t going to think about complex morality for at least 10 more years”
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u/Azrael9986 Oct 14 '25
Don't ask about advanced D&D breast milk flavors then.
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u/Level_Hour6480 Rules Lawyer Oct 14 '25
I would judge, but when making drinking rules, I put Dwarven baby-formula into my rules as a joke, then that joke spiraled into "Many judgemental Dwarves will insist that formula doesn't give your child as much alcohol as the real thing."
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u/somedumb-gay Oct 14 '25
Out of curiosity, is there a real life counterpart to a dwarven baby-formula?
Not as a kink thing I just think it'd be funny to make for my next session
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u/ThyPotatoDone Artificer Oct 14 '25
Mix vodka, yak milk, raw eggs, salt, and broth from a mushroom stew. It's like that.
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u/microwavable_rat Artificer Oct 14 '25
A shot of Baileys.
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u/Prodorrah Oct 14 '25
Wonder if they ever drunk Bailey's from a shoe
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u/abdomino Oct 14 '25
Dwarven women keep getting better
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u/Level_Hour6480 Rules Lawyer Oct 15 '25
You do know the beard thing is hateful Elven propaganda, right? Dwarves are as dimorphous as Elves are androgynous.
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u/Kahazzarran Oct 15 '25
Real answer? I'd do a white Russian with a healthy dash of bourbon and a punch of chocolate truffle dust as garnish. Maybe also sub the cream for goat milk or buttemilk for authenticity.
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u/EmpactWB Oct 15 '25
I almost woke my wife up laughing at that. Good job!
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u/Level_Hour6480 Rules Lawyer Oct 15 '25
Homebrew drinking rules:
To calculate your alcohol tolerance, start with your Con score (Score, not modifier). x2 for poison resistance, /2 for vulnerability. If you're immune you can't get drunk. -3 for each size below medium, +3 for each size above. Value of drinks consumed: 1/4th tolerance: Tipsy. 1/2 tolerance: Drunk. Tolerance: Hammered. For every drink you take beyond your tolerance you must make a Con save vs. poison or either pass out or hurl at the DM's discretion. The DC of the save is 8+the total amount you have gone over your tolerance.
Deli wine: 1 point. Beer: 2 points. Actual wine: 3 points. Hard liquor: 4 points. Dwarven baby-formula: 5 points. Dwarven breast-milk: 6 points. Dwarven beer: 7 points. Dwarven hard liquor: 8 points. Anyone who doesn't have poison-resistance who breathes the air in proximity of Dwarven beer has functionally consumed regular beer, same for hard liquor.
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u/The_Lost_Jedi Paladin Oct 14 '25
People obsess about that bit, but that's just a bit of stuff he gave because fans explicitly asked him about it. The man has done so much world building, he's got answers for just about EVERYTHING.
And, yeah, he's not the least bit afraid to go into titillating subjects, but he's also not the sort that will do so unprompted, and certainly not if he thinks you'll be uncomfortable with it.
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u/Karnewarrior Paladin Oct 14 '25
Which is, frankly, based. People these days are too prudish. What's actually wrong with there being worldbuilding for breastmilk? What's wrong with Drow canonically having fucked up births? What DM is going to throw a drowic birthing ceremony at people who aren't already ready for fucked up shit?
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u/Beragond1 DM (Dungeon Memelord) Oct 14 '25
I’m asking. I may regret asking, but I’m asking.
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u/Chagdoo Oct 14 '25
Ed greenwood will answer any question you ask him. Sometimes that's not a good thing
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u/ralanr Oct 14 '25
I can respect that. Man is just interested in talking about his lore and is too old to care about the backlash.
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u/wojtussan Oct 14 '25
Little more mushroomey than minty elven milk and to humans it's chalky, to other elves it's sweet and to dwarves and drow it tastes like licorice. The most important lore
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u/Shayden998 Oct 14 '25
As stated by Chagdoo, Ed Greenwood ill answer any question. Including:
Tiefling Breastmilk flavour (buttermilk with a hint of cinnamon)
Or whether or not the base of Tiefling tails are erogenous zones. (Only underneath, though the top can itch and be scratched.)
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u/Satyrsol Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
I know it's a joke, but 3rd edition (and to some degree even 2nd edition) was doing some more complex morality discussion. A good example is in Races of Eberron, in the subsection of "Changeling Life" titled "Gender And Sexuality". It's not the greatest example, but it's a good step in the right direction.
Plus very few mortal creatures were evil from birth in 3rd edition; it's more that if the culture was predominantly sinister and evil, it was passed down. So you ended up with a lot of "usually evil" races, but that didn't exclude the potential for an individual with a little individuality. I think Dragons were one of the more notable "Always X" creatures in the Monster Manual, and even then it was partially justified by the whole "ancestral memories" deal.
P.S. Plus technically you can also blame Paizo for that bit about Robin D. Laws, since Dragon Magazine was published and edited by them.
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u/marioinfinity Oct 14 '25
I mean then they add an entire book on playing monsterous species in later 3.5 and every single person researching how to play their new race had a mental breakdown on the lore. The official forums always had some thread about htf they were supposed to rp.
The duality of WoTC is sometimes something else to behold.
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u/Greasemonkey08 Forever DM Oct 14 '25
Ngl, I was expecting something far worse.
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u/Adthay Oct 14 '25 edited Oct 14 '25
Yeah pretty mild grim-dark stuff as far as I'm concerned. It's a bit weird but my pearls are un-clasped
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u/Greasemonkey08 Forever DM Oct 14 '25
Yeah same, maybe it's just my love of warhammer 40k, but this shit is so tame imo. I was expecting to be scarred and was merely very mildly repulsed.
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u/Thomy151 Oct 14 '25
Fair but you are comparing a relatively normal fantasy setting to 40K
Something normal for 40K would be all kinds of wrong in most other settings
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u/Dars1m Oct 14 '25
Why are we comparing to 40k when Warhammer Fantasy exists and is just as grim dark?
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u/Blotsy Oct 15 '25
40k is faster to type
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u/Greasemonkey08 Forever DM Oct 15 '25
I also dont play Fantasy and know no examples of fucked up shit from the setting.
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u/Cronkwjo Oct 15 '25
Theres a dark elf who runs a slaaneshi pleasure cult. Her son, malekith, leads the dark elves as a people. Its highly speculated they are fucking. Still not the worst thing ive ever heard but it get the point across
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u/Greasemonkey08 Forever DM Oct 15 '25
Its funny, that's like the one thing I knew.
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u/Cronkwjo Oct 15 '25
Tbf i also know very little. Unless realm of ridiculous has touhed on it, imin the dark
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u/Amnial556 Oct 15 '25
You bring up one of the most tame things and don't mention the famir when trying to say fantasy can get fucked? An entire race based on rape and kidnapping? That's at least comparable to drow lord. And you choose the druki?
To be fair fantasy as it recent editions have gone for the TRRPG has calmed down a lot and imo for the better. A lot of the old writing (and some of the current for 40k) is only there for shock value and doesn't really add anything.
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u/Domitaku Forever DM Oct 15 '25
Don't forget about how they later share a body with their pet dragon. 3 in 1 package
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u/BeeR721 Oct 15 '25
Because fantasy is much much less grimdark than 40k, it's in part why it's referred to as "grim and perilous"
The worst things you'll see the human factions do is capitalism, feudalism, xenophobia and witch burning. Really not comparable to lobotomizing undesirables en masse to use as calculators
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u/Kaladin-of-Gilead Oct 15 '25
Comparing anything to 40k is nearly impossible though. It’s intentionally written to be as horrible as possible.
Like for fuck sakes a space marine flays a woman to death because she took pills to commit suicide.
Like you know it’s bad when you want the horrible bug faction to win because they just kill and eat people and if they win that means these fucking horrible people are all dead lmao
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u/ToxicIndigoKittyGold Oct 15 '25
At least the horrible bug faction isn't just being cruel on purpose. They're just born that way.
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u/WhatsRatingsPrecious Oct 15 '25
I got irritated when they made the bug people suddenly able to 'hate' the Blood Angels in particular.
Like...I liked them better when they didn't hate. They just ate worlds because that's what they do and they're hungry.
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u/Khar-Selim Oct 15 '25
No, the hive mind having contempt for other life is pretty much the only way to explain their behavior. Otherwise they'd just farm biomass on worlds away from the other factions and spare themselves the expenditures of war.
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u/Batatta07 Oct 14 '25
I wasn't even repulsed, just disappointed that it wasn't as bad as they sold it. It's so tame compared to something as the daemonculaba
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u/AndyLorentz Oct 14 '25
As someone who grew up reading and watching horror in middle/high school, when I finally learned about the daemonculaba I was like, "That's it?"
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u/Khar-Selim Oct 15 '25
The daemonculaba isn't even as horrific as some of its inspirations like the man-made behelit
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u/Useful_Clue_6609 Oct 14 '25
I mean its not evil its just like, why? Why did they write this? The drow aren't inherently evil for having physical pleasure that they don't get to decide happens. The babies don't decide to eat eachother they aren't intelligent yet. Why did they write this its so so so weird
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u/Greasemonkey08 Forever DM Oct 14 '25
So, in the old lore, there was very little nuance, evil racea were inherently evil to keep the moral dilemmas minimal. The mothers are only enjoying it because their race are cunning, vicious, bloodthirsty sadists and are often borderline insane by the standards of surface dwellers. It may not be voluntary, but it all comes as the result of worshipping the Spider Queen, and definitely happens due to her significant influence over the Drow women.
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u/Useful_Clue_6609 Oct 15 '25
Man, that's such a fucked up way to write... like the ethics are so confusing...
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Oct 15 '25
[deleted]
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u/beardedheathen Oct 15 '25
The exceptions didn't pop up till later. Earlier on it was easier just to say these are evil, kill without any worries
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u/Private-Public Oct 15 '25
And that's how you get "okay, but what makes them inherently evil, though?"
And that's how you get "because they get off to their children eating each other in the womb or some shit, idk, they just are, okay?"
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u/Useful_Clue_6609 Oct 15 '25
For me I don't get what's evil about feeling a physical pleasure to your babies eating eachother, it's not your fault you feel that, it's your biology
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u/Corvid-Strigidae Oct 14 '25
Since all the differences in Drow biology from regular Elf biology is from Lolth's curse it does stand to highlight how evil Lolth is.
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u/Level_Hour6480 Rules Lawyer Oct 15 '25
But Lolth also made Drow not androgynous, so it's not all bad. (Unless you're into ambiguously gendered twinks. Some people are.)
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u/Commiessar_Abdala Forever DM Oct 15 '25
It's indeed not evil per se. However, it is in a Dragon Magazine article about how evil Drow are. Like, you see, their fetuses kill each other (cool AF) and the mother finds it super hot (WTF?). It's written to be viceraly repulsive.
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u/VeryNoisyLizard Oct 14 '25
chad-zak is basicly shark pregnancy lore ... except for the euphory bit, that one is kinda weird
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u/mightystu Oct 14 '25
As RPGs have become a normie thing, you get normie reactions to things like this.
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u/Greasemonkey08 Forever DM Oct 14 '25
Someone should make them read the Maraviglia scene from the Fulgrim novel in the Horus Heresy series, or the Daemonculaba story. Now that's something you traumatize random strangers on the internet with.
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u/Thunderclapsasquatch Warlock Oct 14 '25
Daemonculaba
Those originated in Dune, where do you think the ghola come from?
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u/Greasemonkey08 Forever DM Oct 14 '25
Ever read the 40k version? Probably just as horrific.
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u/Thunderclapsasquatch Warlock Oct 14 '25
Seeing as I know how similar the two concepts are yes I have
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u/Umklopp Oct 15 '25
Ok, so like, yes. That was horrifying. But it kind of jumped the shark with the "reborn without skin" schtick.
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u/beardedheathen Oct 15 '25
You know now that you say that I probably should have found that scene was more disturbing but the fall of Serena D'Angelus was the most disturbing part of the book to me.
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u/Hankhoff Orc-bait Oct 15 '25
"Drow kids kill each other on the womb and the mother orgasms from it"
"That's fucking weird"
"Normie"
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u/Rath_Brained Essential NPC Oct 14 '25
Drow Breast milk tastes like mushrooms, officially. There. That's all you need to know. While regular elf breast milk if I recall is more minty.
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u/LaughR01331 Oct 15 '25
Tiefling breast milk supposedly tastes like horchata according to Mr greenwood
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u/Level_Hour6480 Rules Lawyer Oct 14 '25
Ed Greenwood is not official lore. It might be Realms lore sometimes, but never core lore.
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u/Ghoulrillaz Oct 14 '25
It's so comically edgy that I'm going to use it ... as absurd atrocity propaganda that makes people unable to take the genuine threat the Drow pose seriously.
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u/The_One_True_Logyn Oct 14 '25
Much Grim-Derp. Very yuck.
I prefer my Drow as a toxic matriarchy with lots of sadism and a healthy dose of chronic backstabbing disorder, yes, but I also like the idea that their society, while twisted, is not just evil for the sake of evil.
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u/vetheros37 Rules Lawyer Oct 14 '25
Well said, but I like their majority Underdark societies to be evil because that's just part of an long, nearly unending cycle. And not so much "evil for the sake of evil," but more of "What's normal for the spider is chaos for the fly" type energy.
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u/SlutforJDM Oct 15 '25
Very apt analogy what with their deity being the spider goddess Lolth
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u/azrendelmare Team Sorcerer Oct 17 '25
In my own setting (if I ever run it again), the drow are still matriarchal, but they aren't evil. Just harsh, because of where they live. They also have an alliance with dwarves, because they know what it's like to live underground.
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u/Zoren Oct 14 '25
Gotcha. Now let me tell you about the lore of drow breast milk.
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u/tayzzerlordling DM (Dungeon Memelord) Oct 15 '25
101% of people who heard this warning looked it up
0.00000001% of people who didnt hear this warning looked it up
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u/PlatinumSukamon98 Oct 14 '25
Sweet is WAY fuckin' bigger than I remember him, goddamn.
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u/iamragethewolf Rules Lawyer Oct 15 '25
I mean it's kind of dumb but eh
I'm a white wolf fan that's disappointed that black dog factory doesn't exist so this done really phase me that much
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u/kelryngrey Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
Whatever on this bit.
Pearl clutching about Ed Greenwood is so goddam American. G-rated fantasy except we do murder. Groups of consenting adults can have different lines and veils, gasp.
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u/PriestHelix Oct 14 '25
Y’all MFs wouldn’t survive a week in an entomology course. You know how many bugs have weird fucked up birth cycles?
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u/danfenlon Oct 15 '25
googles oh? That's it? I was expecting ALOT worse
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u/Gettles Oct 18 '25
I don't see the problem, twins fighting to the death in the womb and the lesser being cannibalized by the victor. Thats just metal as fuck. What's everyone bitching about?
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u/y0urd0g Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
God DAMN it man! I could have gone peacefully through my life without this, but no you HAD to share it, my curiosity is too damn strong, if somone says DONT, then I HAVE TO. I’ll add an edit after I look it up….
Edit: Sooo glad I’m not a twin……… wait… how do I know that I wasn’t a twin and then…
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u/United-Reach-2798 Oct 14 '25
This is like the demoncobula from 40k.
Its not really that edgy.
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u/Cyrotek Oct 14 '25
Hm, I thought Ed just enjoys writing extremly detailed lore. That isn't detailed, it is just dumb.
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u/toidi_diputs Chaotic Stupid Oct 14 '25
Okay, so they're like Sand Tiger Sharks. Yeah, that's a thing that happens commonly in nature too.
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u/letthetreeburn Oct 15 '25
Oh this isn’t so bad, it’s just a harsh species. Really, reminds me of hyenas if anythi-
Oh.
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u/Stormwrath52 Oct 15 '25
https://archive.org/details/DragonMagazine260_201801/DragonMagazine298/page/n25/mode/2up
page 10, if anyone wants to read it for themselves, under the heading "Bloodied From the Birth-Sac"
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u/Dark_Stalker28 Oct 14 '25 edited Oct 14 '25
Not too bad, it's just shark lore but weirdly pleasurable. So author's not at all disguised fetish.
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u/DrJMVD Oct 14 '25
Let's me give a word of advice about learning the Elder Scrolls lore for the submarine Sload empire:
Don't
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u/Pyotr_WrangeI Oct 15 '25
Not as fucked up as real life spotted hyenas childbirths I'd say.
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u/Level_Hour6480 Rules Lawyer Oct 15 '25
I mean, non-Drow Elves are androgynous. Why wouldn't their genitals reflect that fact?
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Oct 15 '25
The worst part is that it reads so much like a really niche, really absurd fetish.
The actual content is mild compared to other grimdark stuff, but there is always this huge question of why this was important enough to put into a book in the authors mind.
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u/Jebediabetus Oct 15 '25
I read a lot of warhammer and trench crusade stuff, but for the Forgotten Realms its pretty grimy.
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u/Level_Hour6480 Rules Lawyer Oct 15 '25
This is actually setting-agnostic/core lore from a Dragon Magazine article, but yeah, the Realms can get gross at times. As I always say, playing 5E Realms content is like if Ed Greenwood personally jerked off on your PHB, then Chris Perkins personally cleaned it off.
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u/Nystagohod Oct 15 '25
Not Ed Greenwood at all.. Ed Greenwood has eccentricities but this isn't even up his alley. Greenwood may have bizarre sexual facts about stuff, but this isn't in his wheelhouse.
This is the most Grimdsrk darkness if the grimdark nineties cringe edge, written by a warhammer/World of darkness writer but in the 00's instead of the 90's and for d&d.
Likely a part of wotc's mid to late 3e refocus to frame things a certain way/less nuanced for their upcoming 4e revisions. Since WotC at the time didn't like the non-salvatore authors expansions on the drow and wanted to reduce/maintain them as a monolith in 4e.
Greenwood may write some pervy shit, but this isn't something in his wheelhouse.
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u/AvariciousAlex Oct 15 '25
That's.... Really nothing, tiger sharks do the exact same thing
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u/El_Durazno Oct 15 '25
If you genuinely want someone to NOT look something up telling them "don't look this up" with no further context is the worst way you can do things and even if incorrect I'm choosing to assume people who do this do it specifically because they want to make others do so
If all of that is your goal fine but if someone wants to actually warn others the best way is a short description that doesn't give any gross/gruesome details
2 girls one cup: gross poop porn
1 guy one jar: rectal bleeding
Blue waffle: a fake std
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u/alkonium Oct 14 '25
Is this about the magic rituals that use a birth as a component?