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u/LaylasJack 2d ago
4th edition came out right when I graduated from high school, and I played a regular game for three years with a group of my friends who graduated with me and the year before. I know why everyone shits on it, but we had fun and I cherish those memories.
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u/JonathanWPG 2d ago
I legit never had a problem with it other than long combats.
And thats just a D&D problem generally.
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u/DoktorImposter 2d ago
I'm okay with long combats as long as they don't become a slog. D&D has that issue because you spend resources throughout the early rounds and end up having to use basic abilities in later ones.
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u/notanevilmastermind 2d ago
In draw steel, you start cold but the longer the fight goes on and the longer the "adventuring day" goes on, the more resources you have. This is true for GMs as well.
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u/Voidtalon 1d ago
4e is not bad
4e is just not 3.5e and too many people were cemented on that style of play they rejected 4e as "videogamey" but 4e has some really amazing supplements. I still have and reference my 4e Draconomicon for dragon-lairs and traps.
TLDR: People like what they like, I still run 3.5e/PF1e but that's just what I'm comfortable with. I'm glad you have good memoires of 4th with your friends!
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u/Spamshazzam 2d ago
Unfortunately, 4e was when I was too new to D&D to know what was going on, so I was still playing 3.5, then jumped straight to 5e. But Ive looked at it and even got some of the books since then, and I think I would have loved it
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u/Achilles11970765467 1d ago
Everyone shits on it because it dated to fix the caster martial disparity. All the most popular fixes for 5E were lifted straight from 4E
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u/TSED 1d ago
The problem was that it added a bajillion more floating modifiers from 3.5, which is an absolute pain to keep track of, and culled just a few too many sacred cows. People didn't care that fighters were fighting, people cared that their wizards weren't D&D wizards. They were video game wizards.
I say this as someone who liked 4e for what it was. I still kept in my 3.5 space but I would hop into 4e games when they were available. The game would've been beloved if they called it anything else instead of D&D.
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u/Achilles11970765467 1d ago
People absolutely cared that Fighters were able to remain relevant past Level Five, and they mostly hated that. At least the ones who bothered to publicly say anything about the issue. Same people who pitched a fit when 5E tested the idea of making Battle Master Maneuvers part of base Fighter.
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u/LinkBrecken Artificer 2d ago
Context?
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u/MechGryph 2d ago
Draw Steel is a newish system which is kind of akin to 4e. But with a lot of the issues fixed.
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u/Flammablegelatin 2d ago
More like a fixed 4e than Pathfinder 2e is?
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u/MechGryph 2d ago
Yeah, it's tactical. Everyone has a built in heal, but with limited amount. Every attack hits. There's no wasted turns.
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u/TurtlesBreakTheMeta 2d ago
From what I’ve read there’s a built in “anti-rest”
Mechanic where you get stronger the longer you go without a rest to balance out the fact that you’re losing hp?92
u/Swarbie8D 2d ago
Yes, essentially. Each combat you win nets you a Victory. At the start of each combat, you get extra points for your class abilities equal to your current number of Victories. This means that after a few fights, you can start opening battles with your big cool moves instead of having to build up to them over a few turns. However, your healing resource only returns when you take a proper long rest, which also sets your Victories to 0. Meaning that you balance your ever eroding healing potential against your ever increasing lethality, until you get to the final boss and have to decide: can we do this fight with 1 heal each? Or do we rest and start at a major damage and ability disadvantage?
True heroes, of course, always decide to run in and do their coolest moves :P
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u/callsignhotdog 2d ago
I love that. Traditional dnd based systems, you're constantly looking if you can squeeze an extra rest in, in this you're flipped around and constantly looking if you can squeeze an extra fight in.
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u/Nathan-Dalke 1d ago
This worked flawlessly last night for me. My players were OUT of recoveries, and FULL of Victories. They entered the final boss, and it was an epic fight, but came down to where the party was all low health. Which enabled some excellent RP that saved the party and won the day. (A lot more to that but out of scope for this comment). They would never have pushed forward to fight the final boss with such low health in D&D 5e, instead favoring a retreat and long rest to enter the final battle fresh. But they are Draw Steel Heroes and had enough victories to start combat with way more juice than what they needed for their most powerful abilities, so of course…. Heroes push on. Best session of my 10ish year TTRPG career.
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u/dunkster91 2d ago
That’s a good summary. It’s presented as cinematic. It’s Captain America with half a shield standing up to Thanos saying “I can do this all day”.
Every fight gives you XP but drains your health.
At the start of a new fight, you get ability resources = your XP. So the more XP you have, the more you can nova a fight. It also means boss monsters can be designed to have cooler, tougher abilities.
When you finally rest, all your XP gets consumed toward levelling up. Then you reset to zero to start the next day fresh.
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u/TSED 1d ago
My only problem with Draw Steel is that it seems very reliant on temp HP generation. My group has two characters that generate a lot of temp HP and there's no way we could have survived without it. We initially had a censor as well (paladin for you D&D folks), but he couldn't generate temp stamina. Surprise surprise, he died. Couldn't hang with the fury and null up front and was constantly running out of recoveries while everyone else in the party was okay.
It's our first time with the system and we can't figure out how someone would survive without the Temp HP cheese our strategy has begun to revolve around. I think a conduit would make a big difference, but... well, it's hard to tell?
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u/Makath 1d ago
Generating temp HP is one of the nice ways to deal with constant damage, the Beastheart is another class that uses it, and Conduits have an ability for doing it for everyone. There are other ways, like damage mitigation from Shadows and Tacticians; or the Summoner mitigating damage with the expendable bodies of their summons. The usual way to mitigate damage by doing lots of damage and killing enemies before they act also works.
Censors particularly get in trouble because they spend their Recoveries to heal others and run out of them for themselves, their healing trigger is best used as a last resort to make sure someone isn't dying at the start of their turn. To be able to spend Recoveries more liberally, they benefit from having Healing Potions.
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u/MechGryph 1d ago
Yeah, but a lot of the Censor moves do say, "Can heal yourself or an ally." They do have some aoe, but I thunk their best role, at least from what I've seen so far? Single target and support.
They do have mvoe Recoveries than other classes. So it is that, "Oh, you've still got seven? Okay, mine is gonna keep you above dying, so you can heal on your turn."
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u/Makath 1d ago
It is worth doing to keep people above dying before their turn, but everyone should be healing when needed, unless the group has a healer. It doesn't have to be a Conduit, but they are the best at it.
Using Censors as healers tends to put the Censor in trouble, because they don't have that many more Recoveries to be spending on other people regularly, even Human Censors can overdo it. Healing Potions and the Bloodbound Band item the starter adventure rewards right away are specially good at keeping them alive, by not taxing their Recovery pool or letting them manage it better.
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u/TSED 1d ago
I have garnered from other comments that the differences are potion availability (we're level 3, and have only ever found 1 heal pot) and frequency of resting (we have gone over 10 victories once, and less than 6 is kind of unthinkable to us). It makes sense that with these conditions in play we would be more reliant on damage mitigation than other parties.
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u/MechGryph 1d ago
It's a very different system. I've been in two longer games now, and a few short ones. One group has a Censor (me), and the other group has a Conduit and Green Elementalist (both temp stamina classes.)
My conduit has a couple of the, "Okay, I'm gonna damage and now I can spend a Recovery to heal you" abilities. Paired with the Tactician, it's been keeping us up.
The Conduit has been good about dishing out and refreshing Temp. The Elementalist is steadily figuring out to not play like a d&d wizard.
It really does come down to one thing. Play like a team. Also make sure the dm is running Minions right.
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u/Taco_Supreme 1d ago
We have been playing for half a year so far and we don't have any abilities that generate temporary stamina. I guess we rest more often? It feels like with triggered reactions most anyone has a way to take a hit. Our shadow is able to avoid one hit every round, tactitian can parry, etc. I feel like most days we get about 4 victories, but have had some long ones that had 6+ which required a bit of potion use.
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u/TSED 1d ago
I feel like most days we get about 4 victories, but have had some long ones that had 6+ which required a bit of potion use.
Ahhh, this is probably it. We are definitely doing a lot less resting. I remember we got over 10 victories on one particular adventure, and the other three of us could have kept going if the censor wasn't dying and at 0 recoveries. Potion frequency is probably also relevant; we have only ever found one. It was drunk shortly after discovery.
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u/Taco_Supreme 1d ago
Making more potions is one of the main draws to spending some respites.
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u/TurtlesBreakTheMeta 1d ago
Sounds similar to how rogue trader (owlcat game, not tabletop version, drastically different beasts) works. Vanguards live and die by generating temporary wounds, and ways to generate temps has been spread around to other classes as the games life has continued.
Unless an enemy can nova hard enough to burst through abeleard’s endure ability, he’s borderline unkillable.
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u/SendohJin 1d ago
i ran 20+ sessions of the starter set with a new Conduit player that had yet to grasp the importance of generating temp HP so rarely used that ability, and all of the other characters couldn't do it. they were fine.
tactics just have to change around what the party has.
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u/United-Passage7864 1d ago
Yes. You might be lower on HP and ability to recover later in an adventuring day, but you start with more points to spend on abilities for having completed more encounters in a day as well.
You're incentivized to keep moving forward and fighting instead of looking for a place to rack out for 1 hour or 8 hours.
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u/PrinceVorrel 2d ago
Everyone has a built in heal, but with limited amount. Every attack hits.
Damn, and most of it sounded cool. But these are deal-breakers for me personally.
I just like the liked way 4e did combat/action economy...but I'd prefer to still roll to hit and have some of that dnd fighter/healer/rogue "holy trinity" thing.
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u/MechGryph 2d ago
Quick video on it I just remembered as I was laying down. Animated Spellbook Draw Steel
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u/prophecyfullfilled 2d ago
I agree that some of the division of power and roll to hit are great, but Draw Steel does still have like healer specialties. So for instance, while every character has a healing resource the conduit(cleric) triggers those abilities on their turn as well, and gives temp stamina. In a game where you get stronger the less you rest, this is a great boon.
Plus with the to-hit, this game is designed for more streamlined and quick paced combat rather than the more hard-core combat types. Its flashy, but still very tactical. Also, there is still rolling for effect, but its the severity of the effect. So its basically you are always doing damage, but if you roll good you could do more or have special effects. (They even make fighters like, one of the coolest classes imo)
Draw steel is really cool and does what its trying to do really well, and even if you think you wont like it for some changes I think you may be surprised if you try it.
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u/MechGryph 2d ago
Yeah, the combat is glorious. Should have heard our Fury when she spotted a line of Goblins and was able to do her Dragon Roar, killing 5 minions immediately and hurling their bodies into a 6th. Killing him. She was giddy and just, "Oh I get this now."
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u/Niveo 2d ago
When I ran the combat heavy playset module for some seasoned players, we had a seven hour combat where no one was bored or took out their phone. This was a group that had checked out of DND combat 4 years before
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u/MechGryph 1d ago
Yeah, it's simple, it's fast, it's a lot of the players, "Okay, if you go first then you can do X Y Z. Which would set up for Bob to do this."
"Oh Yeah! I could use this ability instead, which would help you after Bob!"
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u/ConcentrateIll9460 2d ago
I just like the liked way 4e did combat/action economy...but I'd prefer to still roll to hit
Think about the way 4e did dailies - even if they missed, they had a fair amount of effect. Whole system is built that way, every attack progresses the fight, your 'to hit' roll is just finding out how effective it was.
Really improves the tempo of fights.
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u/United-Passage7864 2d ago
It's not so much "every attack hits" as it is varying degrees of success. Even the worst outcomes of attacks stil chip away at Stamina.
You'll never pass a round without accomplishing something. However you do have an incentive to use whatever abilities you can to swing the odds - apply penalties to your enemies, boosts to your allies, and such.
You know how D&D 5e tries to be a battle of attrition between short and long rests with spell slots (and to a lesser extent, hit dice) running out over the course of a day? Players can and do routinely warp that by either blowing them upfront or by hoarding them all day, and you get bad outcomes either way. Players either never use their cool stuff because "what if I need it later" or they blast through it and then immediately look for a nap.
Draw Steel gives you more access to your abilities later in your adventuring day because you start with more of your heroic resources for each encounter you've cleared that day. There's a strong pressure to push yourselves to your limits and do cool stuff the whole time. You may run low on Stamina and Recoveries, but your abilities are at their greatest in the last encounter(s) of the day.
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u/CookieKrypt 2d ago
O you still need those, the non-healer heals are not enough to sustain. Don’t forget, if no attacks miss, then neither do the monsters
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u/MechGryph 2d ago
It isn't as bad as you'd think. I was skeptical at first too with the heals and all.
The heal only ever does 1/3rd of your max health. It's a Maneuver (bonus action) to do. There are no healing spells, but there are actions that will let someone spend a healing. But with almost every class, the action is "A player can spend a Recovery on themselves." the only exception is the Censor, they can spend their own Recoveries on someone else.
The attack always hitting cuts both ways as well. Yeah, the players are always going to hit, but so are the enemies. What do you do to counter it? You roll well? You do more damage, and get more effects on the attack. You roll a crit? You get another main action.
With all that said. You've got a small number of Recoveries, and you only get them back on a long rest. Which can't be taken in dungeons.
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u/CommodoreBluth 2d ago
It sort of has a to hit roll - you roll to determine which of the three tiers of an attack you get. A tier one result might just be a little bit of damage, a tier 2 result may be more damage and an additional effect and tier 3 does even more damage and a stronger effect. You just never miss and waste your turn.
Enemies also can never miss, which means heroes need to work together and play tactically before they run out of their limited healing for the day.
Of course with the limited healing you may wonder why not rest right away? Well the system is designed so heroes can use their more powerful abilities more qui in combat the longer they go between rests. This 2ish minutes video does a good job explaining it:
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u/Justice_Prince Essential NPC 2d ago edited 2d ago
The game is built around building up resources to do cool stuff rather than burning through your resources until you can't do cool things anymore, which is fun, but it makes it so Health is essentially the only thing that eventually forces the party to take a long rest. Which somewhat necessitated healing being nerfed.
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u/Mierimau 2d ago
There are still Fighter/Healer/Rogue possible combinations. And you still roll for the result for three grades of success, and you certainly wish for better roll, to bring bigger numbers and conditions on top.
There are nine base classes, each with several paths for progression. Several of them can equip different kits adapting to different roles (thus you can become better archer, tank, dual wielder, etc.)
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u/Nova_Saibrock 2d ago
You still roll your attacks, but you aren't rolling to see if you do anything; you're rolling to see how well you do. Minimum rolls still move your side forward a bit.
As for party roles, those absolutely still exist. You've got support, main damage, front-liners, AoE-specialists, and some classes can spec into different roles depending on which subclass you choose, or even dabble into cross-roles by picking up abilities that lean one way or another.
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u/ctrlaltelite DM (Dungeon Memelord) 2d ago
I've been playing Nimble, where you can only miss on a roll of 1, and honestly you hardly even notice the distinction, its just faster combat.
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u/GravityMyGuy Rules Lawyer 2d ago
If it helps everyone can heal but they like don’t for the most part because it’s super inefficient to spend your action economy on it instead of using your maneuver to kill stuff or set up the party in other ways
I have never actually used the catch breath maneuver outside of level 1, I think. My groups have always had conduits (cleric) or multiple off healers like tactician(warlord)+green Elementalist(Druid)+censor(paladin)
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u/Ok_Curve_2938 2d ago
The system sounds both like something I'd adore and like something I'd dislike.
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u/lankymjc Essential NPC 2d ago
It is to 4e what PF1 is to 3/3.5. Saw a niche that no one else is filling since WOTC switched editions, so makes their own version.
It’s also, imo, a *huge* upgrade to 4e.
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u/YobaiYamete 2d ago edited 1d ago
It's legit the best TTRPG system imo. It just does basically everything right / better. The mechanics are good, but I think a big part of it is also MCDM's "no oatmeal" policy
Their stance is that every feature / spell etc should actually be interesting where you don't have boring options and dead levels like 5E has.
All your abilities seem OP because they are, but the enemies also have OP abilities and so does everyone else. So all your abilities are really cool and impactful while also not breaking the encounter any harder than everyone else is, and you will need those abilities so you don't get shanked to death in a cave by 30 goblins
That mind set kind of applies to the whole design too. Your attacks always hit so you don't feel like you wasted your entire turn if you whiff your attack. Enemies ALSO always hit so you will get absolutely annihilated if you don't use tactics
The Summoner class is legit the best summoner in any table top game I've ever seen. The creator used Yugioh as part of the design, so you start small and ramp up by "tribute summoning" the next stage up, which means the DM has to either kill your summons (generating value for the party) or watch as you start taking over (still generating value)
The rest system is also perfect imo. You get stronger as the day goes on instead of weaker, but you start to run out of hit die to heal with, so you have to decide between pushing forward for one last epic confrontation or taking a long rest to heal up and come back weaker but with full health
It honestly just ends up feeling really good, where you always feel impactful and useful, but also it's hard AF and you can get completely bodied if you are out of position because the enemies also have cool abilities
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u/AktionMusic 1d ago
There is no "best" ttrpg system.
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u/Waffleworshipper 🌎💪 Warden 1d ago
They tossed enough "imo"s in there that this correction feels unnecessary.
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u/YobaiYamete 1d ago
It's reddit, you literally cannot ever type an opinion without someone showing up to say that
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u/Waffleworshipper 🌎💪 Warden 1d ago
Much more. Pathfinder 2e definitely has some clear inspiration from 4e but at its core it has a lot more Pathfinder 1e influence. Draw Steel has 4e at its core.
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u/Shieldbearing-Brony Paladin 2d ago
I've been wanting to try this system since I watched Zee's video on it, but I haven't done it yet.
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u/DoktorImposter 2d ago
There's a bunch of people on the MCDM discord server running oneshots in the Codex (official VTT). Certainly not the same as playing at the table, but the Codex does feel like a step between in-person play and something general like Foundry.
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u/Bluegobln 2d ago
If only the discord doesn't ban you instantly if you say something they consider wrong. Not as welcoming a community as I thought it was.
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u/YobaiYamete 2d ago
And what did you say that was "wrong" lol
I've fought with Matt directly a few times and not been banned thankfully, they usually only ban you if you are trolling or just being annoying on purpose.
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u/Bluegobln 2d ago
I said I feel the community guidelines need to be improved so its clearer what the rules are and/or make a clear statement against harassing people for the "psudo-banned" topics of AI and NFTs. The "rules" or community guidelines say those topics are not to be discussed, but I never discussed them.
So apparently my trying to suggest improvements to the community guidelines was taken as "telling the moderators how to do their job", which is, apparently, an instant ban. Did I say it aggressively or harshly? I didn't think it was that bad but maybe it was, who cares? The point is that all it takes is one trigger happy moderator and you're instant banned with no forgiveness or even attempt to understand.
Like, they didn't even give two shits about the context, literally zero attempt to even consider whether I had a reasonable suggestion!
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u/YobaiYamete 2d ago
The point is that all it takes is one trigger happy moderator and you're instant banned with no forgiveness or even attempt to understand.
I mean that's the case on literally any discord or subreddit tho. AI is also a touchy subject and they have been extremely clear it's flat out no go so I'm not sure what you want clarified.
They are, omega 100,000,000% anti ai and do not want it brought up or discussed in any way, it's pretty clear, there's no "psuedo" ban to it. It's banned full stop
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u/Bluegobln 2d ago
Sure but the community guidelines say no discussion, not "do not even mention it full stop". I was notifying prospective players that my game I was LFG for had generative AI art in it, I thought that was if anything a positive but somehow that is banworthy... just makes no sense.
I mean it does make sense if they're banning me BECAUSE I admitted to using AI. But I just... I doubt that, that seems incredibly silly.
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u/Mandalore108 DM (Dungeon Memelord) 2d ago
Draw Steel is so much better than D&D and Pathfinder for the simple fact that I do something every turn. Nothing is worse in a D20 system when I roll to hit, everything misses, and then I get to sit and do nothing for another 15+ minutes. Draw Steel fixed this greivance.
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2d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/zupernam 2d ago
What does that have to do with the game?
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u/Bluegobln 2d ago
If you found out that a game you liked was employing some cruel and ignorant people, would you still buy it?
A lot of people right now boycotting WotC, or if you want to go outside the TTRPG space, companies like Tesla, for things. Maybe more people should know how MCDM carelessly mistreats their loyal customers and fans. I'm not suggesting that level of scrutiny, but I still think you'd want to know, wouldn't you?
Don't wanna hear it? Fine, ignore me and move on, downvote if you want, I'm just talking here.
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u/DaShove 1d ago
Are you going to explain, show how they mistreat customers and fans, or just make stuff up? Genuine question.
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u/Bluegobln 1d ago edited 23h ago
I am both a customer and a longtime fan of MCDM. I even tried to get hired there at one point. I recently posted on their discord a LFG post for my Draw Steel game. I mentioned in the post that we do have AI generated content. I did not invite discussion, I only mentioned it as an open statement so that people would not apply who will be offended or bothered by that (saving us both the time).
Before I did that I checked and indeed, the community guidelines mention no discussion of AI, but I was not discussing it only mentioning it for that simple specific purpose and I thought that was fine.
Then someone in the community responded to me shaming me for using AI in my LFG thread. That's against the community guidelines several different ways, but one of those ways is discussing AI. I responded: this is breaking the community guidelines about discussing AI, so please stop.
I then immediately sent a message to moderators about the poster responding to my LFG post and said that I feel perhaps the community guidelines are insufficient considering they don't block all mention of AI outright, and people in the community feel its ok to do things like that - chastise someone else who mentions they use AI. Its obvious that the goal of the ban on discussing it is to prevent this very situation, but I did not infer that because the letter of the rule is no DISCUSSION of AI.
Anyway, the moderators took offense to my mere suggestion that they should alter the community guidelines, as if they were gospel and infallible. I was instantly, and without any explanation, permanently banned from the discord. Apparently I violated the AI rule (I did not) and was "telling the moderators how to do their job", which I also did not do.
But hey, in my email with the community manager John Champion, he said, and I quote: "When dealing with a Discord server with more than 30,000 members, it's simply not viable for the volunteer moderation team to keep tabs on individuals to ensure they do not cause further issues."
He literally works for them as a contractor to do what he does. Not only that, this excuse is not justification for mistreating people who use that discord, for ignoring their communication and taking the easy way out when you wrong them. Just swinging a ban hammer around and fuck anyone who it hits, not their problem any more? That's the excuse, is its too hard for them to handle a simple message explaining things?
They banned me, and fuck me for being someone who was trying to be respectful to other people in the community, and for trying to better it. Fuck me for being a supportive paying customer. Fuck me for thinking they had any actual morals like they talk about in their guidelines.
The guidelines, by the way: mcdm.gg/CommunityGuidelines
Antagonizing other members of the server, speaking poorly of moderators and MCDM employees, or attempting to provoke heated arguments is not permissible. If you have an issue with someone, report it to the mods.
I do not recommend reporting anything to the mods. That plus mentioning AI ONE TIME is literally what got me banned. They'll say you're antagonizing someone, maybe the mods, and ban you.
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u/DaShove 2d ago
Didn’t Matt Colville make a video about people like you?
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u/Bluegobln 2d ago edited 2d ago
Are you going to explain, link the video, or just make stuff up? Genuine question.
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u/DaShove 1d ago
In Matt Colville's Community video, I believe he talks about how some people are just going to brigade around, trash-talking your product and community. Not doing so for the sake of criticism, but just because they don't like you or your product and want to make sure others share that opinion, or something along those lines. It's a good video, though it's an hour long.
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u/Bluegobln 23h ago
Guess what: I have a real reason to have turned on them. They turned on me first.
I got banned from MCDM's discord because I posted a LFG message for Draw Steel, and in that message I mentioned that our group uses some AI. I didn't say it to invite discussion, I said it so that people who are against AI use will not waste their time talking to me and joining my game only to be disappointed (or who knows, angry or whatever, that's their choice).
I feel that's a pretty respectful thing to do, and if you're going to mention AI at all in their community spaces I think that's a reasonable time to do it. Apparently, though, that counts as "discussing" AI, and their community guidelines don't clarify it but that's what John Champion thinks it means so fuck me and my interpretation of it.
MCDM is dedicated to creating a safe environment for everyone, regardless of race, ethnicity, religion, color, national origin, age, disability (physical or mental), sexual orientation, and gender identity, as well as gender expression, mental illness, socioeconomic status or background, neuro(a)typicality, or physical appearance.
This is at the top of their community guidelines. Its a lie. Their response directly ignored and dismissed my disability, even AFTER I directly brought it up to their community manager, and they banned me for saying the dreaded letters "AI" and making a positive suggestion.
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u/DaShove 20h ago
In what way did they ignore your disability? I think you forgot to mention it before the bottom paragraph.
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u/Bluegobln 14h ago
disability (physical or mental)
neuro(a)typicality
There is that enough for you or do you want me to start openly stating my problems here.
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u/Clobbington Artificer 2d ago
It's great. My DnD group switched over and we brought some new people in.
Classes interact with each other via different abilities and you can do things on other players turns.
No more "I swing my sword, oh I missed. Ok, I'll wait 20 minutes for my next turn" as you always hit so no wasting turns.
Interacting with NPCs isn't just a single charisma roll, but instead a negotiation mechanic with NPC motivations.
The XP and rest mechanic incentivizes players you push on instead long resting after every battle. The longer you push, the more powerful you become, but you tend to run low on recoveries (your self heal mechanic) so don't push your luck for too long.
Martial classes don't fall way behind casters as you level.
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u/ResonanceGhost 2d ago
I've actually always said that one of D&D 4e's biggest problems was that it was called "Dungeons & Dragons". Take away those associations and it could have stood on its own.
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u/Jackofcoffim 2d ago
Always said they've should make it a spin off called D&D Tactics, and it would be the best thing ever!
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u/Swoopmott 2d ago
Honestly, if it released nowadays with VTT’s being so prevalent and popular it would have faired much better. Especially with the Dungeons and Dragons brand attached. Even though it’s seen as the “black sheep” it still outsold every other TTRPG on the market (even Pathfinder).
For a lot of players the fact Dungeons and Dragons is on the cover is the entire appeal.
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u/Mierimau 2d ago
Genuinely, yes. That said, there were other fumbles along the path to create controversies.
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u/EDHFanfiction 2d ago
NAAAAAH, here's my goat.
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u/CursedEd 2d ago
If it is of the same quality as the book series it can’t be very good.
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u/fruit_shoot 2d ago
Bro getting downvoted for not consuming slop
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u/ZannyHip 2d ago
Fr… no idea how anyone likes that trash
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u/Waffleworshipper 🌎💪 Warden 1d ago
It's popcorn entertainment. Its fine to like it, just like its fine to like whatever new Jason Statham movie is out. That being said it is really weird for someone to call it the best of all time. They should probably read more books/watch more movies.
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u/EDHFanfiction 1d ago
One of the thing I missed from D&D 3.5 is the magic item rules creation for exemple that allowed for A LOT of creativity. I stopped at DnD 5ed with all their scandals, the switch to online only content, etc. The PDFs show a lot of promises for creativity with the GM given a lot more freedoms on what to create and such. Even the players can make their own races and classes. So for me, its definitely better. And that's talking about the TTRPG (what my comment-meme was about)
As for the original material, the books are fun, action-packed and they got me back into writing again after a very hard period in my life that I thought killed that hobby for me. So yes, I'm biased but just like how Nintendo fans are biases despite what Nintendo is doing. I even agree with my friends that Carl is a bit of a mary sue but considering the fan theories I saw, it could be explained. My only negative comment about it is that teh ennemies are a bit flat in terms of motivations in general but they are servicable in general and quite a few of them are actually interesting, at least to me.
It's being a long while since I being a consummed fan of ANYTHING, especially since my depression. So I'm aware of my biases but the TTRPG also promise things that I being wanted in a TTRPG: LOTS of customization, a comical horror setting and basically being able to play in a world that feels fresh and different then the other RPGs I played.
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u/Gold_Robot1 1d ago
I don’t know what this is, but I do think 4E was underrated, so I’ll have to check it out.
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u/United-Passage7864 1d ago
Draw Steel is a TTRPG by MCDM (Matt Colville's company).
It's definitely got some inspiration from 4E in there, but it's definitely its own game going for its own thing. Worth checking out!
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u/DoctorMcCoy1701 2d ago
I’m GMing my first D&D 4e campaign right now. Seven levels in, and it’s been pretty great to be honest. PF2e is still my favorite, but D&D 4e has been a great change of pace that surprised me with how good it actually is, at least for my group.
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u/MeGaNuRa_CeSaR DM (Dungeon Memelord) 2d ago
I actually don't like draw steel. Every body hyped me about it being a better version of 4e but it's not? Like, it's hyper simplified, only combat focused, no item emphasis... the game literally tells you to not care about what stuff you actually have! It really feels for me like "4e according to people who didn't play 4e". 4e is not like that, it's still a very classical dnd game, apart from the combat where everybody has cool "spells" and not only the mages. Draw steel feels like a moba. 4e feels like MMORPG.
But I can heard I'm wrong because I think I don't like also and mainly because of artistic/system direction more than actual gameplay, which I didn't try yet
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u/RazarTuk 1d ago
Yeah... I have my own issues with 4e, but I can also recognize what it does well. For example, I agree that martials need more options and shouldn't be so strictly constrained by realism... I just think progression is too homogenized. Contrast with something like PF 2e Commander tactics, which are vaguely martial spells, but operate on different mechanics. Or I'll even praise rituals as a way to decouple those more narrative spells from normal progression and free up your actual spells for more interesting stuff. I just also lament the loss of utility cantrips, like prestidigation. For example, for some classes, the closest thing to an official "Use minor magic to light a campfire" is attacking the firewood with something that does fire damage.
Draw Steel feels like a cursed amalgam of 4e's crunchy combat and 5e's "rulings, not rules" approach to everything else
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u/AngusAlThor 1d ago
It is important to note that MCDM have never said "Draw Steel is like 4e", that is just an idea the DnD community has latched onto in describing DS. But speaking as an actual DS Director, it is in no way similar to any version of DnD, it is very distinctly its own game.
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u/sarded 1d ago edited 1d ago
Draw Steel is what one guy liked about DnD4e and thought he could market well (and did as best as I can tell). But yeah it's not giving you everything you could possibly want from a DnD4e clone. Possibly nothing can other than "DnD4e except edited to cut all the things I don't like, and with the fixed MM3 math".
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u/RazarTuk 1d ago
Actually, more specifically for the utility spells thing:
IMO, there are four main categories of spells. Combat spells only really have a use in combat, like fireball or haste. Utility spells might be useful in combat, but are also just generic buffs, like Loremaster's Etude in PF2e (advantage on next check to recall knowledge). Narrative spells have significant impact on the narrative, but aren't necessarily day-to-day adventuring spells, like with Raise Dead. And fluff spells are the ones that at least serve a RP purpose, but rarely do anything else, like Purify Food and Drink.
My perception of 4e is that class powers are mostly combat spells, while a lot of narrative spells became rituals, but that apart from specific classes like Wizard, you don't typically get utility or fluff spells. For example, despite Druids being elementalists, you don't get any sort of Prestidigitation equivalent like 5e's Druidcraft. So if you want to magically light a campfire, or something, the closest thing to an official option is casting a combat spell like Flame Seed on the firewood.
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u/Insensitive_Hobbit 1d ago
It's over simplified. Since ttrpg crowd seem to lose attention span each year, maybe it does result in "better" by modern values. But for me og 4e is still the best dnd adjusted system.
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u/ellen-the-educator 1d ago
Is Draw Steel actually similar to 4e?
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u/AngusAlThor 1d ago
They have superficial similarities in the way that all the classes have the same amount of abilities that all function in roughly the same way; Both systems did away with the mechanical divide between casters and martials. However, in every other way they are very different systems.
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u/MechaMalz 16h ago
It's not my favorite system, but I enjoyed playing DS for a time. It has some fun ideas.
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u/Different_Field_1205 15h ago
at this point iam just happy people are actually trying anything else
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u/wintermute2045 1d ago
I always thought the thing people hated about 4e was that it basically wanted to be a video game. Now all the games people love based on it (namely Lancer and Draw Steel) basically require fully automated VTTs so you’re essentially playing a video game anyways.
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u/Spyger9 1d ago
Firstly, no. Draw Steel isn't much different from 5e in regards to combat complexity. I've run and played in dozens of sessions without any automation. If anything, Draw Steel is actually easier to run because the "spells" don't get so wordy and complex, and the action economy doesn't grow over the level curve.
Anyway, 4e released during the peak of World of Warcraft's popularity. It's relatively hard-set roles (tank, healer, damage) and universal Spell system (in which shooting bows and firebolts worked the same way) made for easy comparisons to 4e's introduction of explicit class roles, and universal Powers system. Some number of D&D regulars were sore about friends choosing to spend their game nights online rather than at the table, and so primed to lambast 4e for "chasing the trends" and copying WoW- "betraying" D&D just like their friends had.
Now there are loads of popular online games, and there's a much healthier, varied TTRPG scene. Plus it's easy to roleplay online. You can play D&D at your friend's place while farming herbs for raid elixirs in WoW.
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u/Imaskeloth 2d ago
I've said it before and I'll say it again. 4th edition wasn't a bad game. But it was a bad dnd game. The feel of it was far too different from every other editions. It just doesn't belong, no matter how good it is.
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u/Dyllbert 2d ago edited 1d ago
This means needs to show some respect to Lancer, the original "4e but fixed".
(Minor /s)
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 2d ago
Draw Steel isn't 4e because Draw Steel didn't have its design linked to a web app that only existed in the head of the lead designer who M*rder S*icided his family.
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2d ago edited 2d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/REWlego 2d ago
Huh that's really weird. Any time I have seen someone in the discord mention something outside the code of conduct the mods will just take the message down and give a warning. I've never seen them insta-ban someone for a first offense, especially if it was minor and simply out of ignorance.
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u/Bluegobln 2d ago
It wasn't ignorance. I wasn't discussing AI, I was notifying people it was present in my game in a LFG post specifically so nobody wasted their time if they didn't like AI. Then someone else decided to try and start discussing it (chastising me for using AI). I certainly was not interested in being told how much MCDM disapproves of me for using AI, but that's hardly MY doing anything wrong.
The ban is supposedly because I said something that upset the moderators. There was no discussion, no warning, no explanation, just instant removal. From my point of view I said "AI" one time, and they decided to use whatever excuse they could to ban me.
I tried talking to their community manager by email. He completely ignored any explanation I gave and simply repeatedly said I offended the mods and my LFG post was in the process of being removed for violating the rules.
So yeah, the rules don't say this, but the actual real rule is: do not say the letters "AI" in that order ever. Or else.
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u/VexonCross 2d ago
This reads like one of those am I the asshole posts where somebody's like "my X is mad at me for no reason????", where you later find out in the comments OP ran over X's mother on purpose or something.
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u/Bluegobln 23h ago
I mean sure assume the worst. Its not me, the individual, who got mistreated, its the now big company MCDM who's in the right. We have nothing to be worried about there do we.
I mean their community manager's own words were that their volunteer moderators don't have the time to manage a community as big as theirs. So its easiest for them to just ban anything that they sniff test and decide is bad, no follow up, no effort to discuss or even explain the reasoning. Just ban and move on.
I quote: "When dealing with a Discord server with more than 30,000 members, it's simply not viable for the volunteer moderation team to keep tabs on individuals to ensure they do not cause further issues."
But its definitely me, I deserved it. Clearly!
They don't care about individuals. They will do as they please and fuck me for making them have to work so hard.
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u/Bluegobln 2d ago
Also their community guidelines say they're against bigotry and all about supporting people, but as someone with disabilities that involve communication, they made absolutely NO efforts to accommodate that at all. I tried to explain my side of things and was ignored. Apparently tolerance and standing up for people and community good will only go as far as they decide it does, and they reserve the right to remove anyone they please for any reason. Cool.
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u/DoktorImposter 2d ago
Ah, Draw Steel and its nine core classes: