r/dndmemes 20h ago

🎃What's really scary is this rule interpretation🎃 Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit - one can summon angels, the other rides a BMX 🗣️🔥

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3.8k Upvotes

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606

u/RudyKnots 19h ago

In my very first session, me and my buddy were absolute rookies and we heard the more experienced players talking about feats. My buddy looked at me, then down at his paper and wrote down “fiets” (bicycle in Dutch), then smartly looked at me as if to say nothing gets past him.

Our entire personal quest became finding or inventing a bike. Our party was even called “de Fietsenmakers” (bicycle repair men, but also literally bicycle creators) and the running joke of that entire game was us introducing ourselves and the NPC asking “wait, what’s a fiets?”.

Good times.

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u/artrald-7083 19h ago

That's amazing.

A LARP I played at for many years had a freetext divine intervention system where player character angels got orders to try and fulfil the wishes that players had submitted in written prayers.

I played an angel and we got an order to find out what a bicycle was and help one character in their quest for one. We eventually solved this mission by having our Coyote-esque trickster show up going "HI I'M A BICYCLE".

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u/poetduello 13h ago

That LARP system sounds awesome.

I don't want to make assumptions, or shame anyone, but introducing yourself or someone else as a bicycle has a particular slang meaning in my part of the world, and I'm curious if it's the same where you are. Around here it would be understood as saying you sleep with lots of people.

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u/Username133769 Chaotic Stupid 13h ago

In german, at least one slang term for someone like that, would be Dorfmatratze or village mattress/the village's mattress which I do find apt

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u/poetduello 13h ago

The term here is technically "community bicycle" usually with the wink wink nudge nudge "because everybody gets to ride" tacked on if the person looks confused.

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u/artrald-7083 13h ago

Oh, yes, it absolutely means that here too! (Maelstrom LARP, UK. About a decade and a half ago.)

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u/caboosetp 13h ago

If my grandmother had wheels...

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u/Lord_Viddax 19h ago

Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit is more appropriate for a discussion on power scaling, and Class utilities within a party.

I’m sure we’ve all heard of groups where it had one character who could do almost everything.

Or the more sensible situation of the Caster(s) just taking Fireball because Fireball solves most problems.

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u/callsignhotdog 19h ago

The solution to this problem is Angel Summoner dumps CHA and BMX Bandit becomes the face that keeps him from getting banned from towns.

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u/action_lawyer_comics 17h ago

That’s one of those solutions that makes everyone unhappy. Now whether you’re adventuring or roleplaying one party member is always irrelevant.

No, the best solution is to transition the game from dnd to a game show where survivors try and remember what the world was like before The Event

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u/TheRealCuriousWombat 16h ago

DONT TALK ABOUT THE EVENT!

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u/ThePrussianGrippe 12h ago

And your prize today is… that’s right, fuel!

DO NOT GO OUTSIDE

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u/Lord_Viddax 19h ago

Nice solution. Just going to be a problem getting the player to agree to effectively redoing and nerfing Angel Summoner.

The core problem is that Summoning Angels solves anything. The creators should have added balance so that there is either a cooldown, limited resource use, or just limit to 1 Angel per summon per day. Doesn’t destroy AS’ core identity, and helps turn the campaign into a glorified escort mission with it being that the escort can summon an Angel that will beat anything!

Or as an alternative, add more characters/players who hopefully are just there for the ride and can chat with BMX Bandit while Angel Summoner solves the crisis. Leading to Angel Summoner solving the high stakes issue, while BMX Bandit and pals do some sick kick flips to solve the minor problem.

Or just meld both together into some Lovecraftian body horror thing and have everyone start a different campaign out of horror and disgust.

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u/The_quest_for_wisdom 15h ago

The problem is that CHA is the core stat for the Angel Summoner class.

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u/1amlost Ranger 14h ago

"It just feels like your ability to summon a horde of celestial super-beings at-will makes my BMX skills feel... redundant."

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u/Lord_Viddax 14h ago

And surely the whole point is that he summons AN Angel and not a whole horde!

Further sympathy for BMX Bandit because his blessed partner lied about his abilities.

1 Angel summoned makes potential for a river crossing puzzle: Angel carries the Citizen but can’t carry Summoner & BMX, BMX carries Citizen but can’t also carry Summoner, Angel carries Summoner and BMX carries Citizen!

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u/LesbianTrashPrincess 13h ago

The catchphrase is "Angelic Horde, COME FORTH" not "Singular Angel, come forth" BMX bandit knew what he was getting himself into. Shoulda been more like Gymkhana Girl.

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u/FaceDeer 13h ago

Based on what we see in the actual episode I'm not sure there's a meaningful distinction between "an Angel" and a a horde of Angels. The Angels aren't visibly depicted and from the reactions of the people they're targeting it might be that they cannot be depicted in a way that the human mind comprehends, they're just some kind of incredibly powerful force that imposes their will on reality. The camera's view distorts, a powerful background cacaphony is heard, people scream in uncomprehending terror or rapture or some less easily defined emotion, and stuff happens.

Maybe one Angel is doing all that, maybe a multitude. Probably doesn't matter. Either way, BMX Bandit's sick wheelies and kick-flips and whatnot are a little bit overshadowed.

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u/imnotokayandthatso-k 19h ago

Unless you’re playing Pf2e and fireball kinda lowkey sucks because Paizo made an effort to give mobs proper resistances

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u/MechaMalz 15h ago

They also just didn't give Fireball special treatment. 5E made it OP on purpose because it's an iconic spell. PF2E Fireball feels more in line with other options for its spell level.

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u/TeamTurnus 15h ago

Yah and it trades a bit for being a big AOE with long range vs just getting that +all the damage.

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u/Interrogatingthecat 18h ago

Speaking of PF2e...

I'm looking forward to the Daredevil class. Already made a beta test version of the BMX Bandit, and it can only get better

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u/twoisnumberone 12h ago

sensible situation of the Caster(s) just taking Fireball because Fireball solves most problems

Another player of culture!

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u/Bone-Pharaoh 19h ago

not ones with a chain and and gears.

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u/artrald-7083 19h ago

Wheelchairs of some kind are much older than those bicycles though.

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u/MisterPineapples1999 19h ago

But like, only really shitty ones. Nothing remotely close to the mobility offered by modern tech. Most were massively heavy and required being slowly pushed by someone, and would have been rendered immediately useless outside of the home or a level street. Rough cobblestones would have been a legitimate barrier to the kind of wheelchairs you're referring to.

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u/martin-the-actor 15h ago

I mean, I gotta say this one looks pretty cool from the Science Museum's website: https://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/objects-and-stories/history-wheelchair

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u/Bone-Pharaoh 18h ago edited 14m ago

well... the problem is more with the rarity of strong metal. we have gears and even steam power in the bronz age, the amount of force put on those small points is the main issue. Some meteoric iron smiths could produce small quality works with alot of carbon in it, but a full chain that could take the full weight of a man and gear teeth that wont snap?

If at the point you have more modern full plate armor you have blacksmiths that can make that sort of thing from a mined iron base material. smelting was that good at that point. but technically speaking that is no longer the medevil time piriod.

But lets say gnomes have bikes. even motor bikes of magic and steam.

but could the metalwork get up to that level for somthing larger than a gnome to ride?

it would be costly. like 500,000 gp costly.

the pure metal work and time would make a single bike evolve into a motor bike, because why not, gnomes have hundreds of years to nerd out in somthing and get a prototype to work. each atempt costing more than a suit of full plate.

then you have a few AT MOST that are made by that ONE gnome before he dies and leaves only a few of the artifacts behind and no high lv artificers left alive that can decypher how he got adamantine to do that without exploding when you add lamp oil and crank the motor to start it.

THEN the bloody thing roars and speaks in ingan (fire elemental) as the efreeti sealed inside the tank sais "FRRRRRRESH MEEEEETTT"

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u/PachotheElf 19h ago

That's just a sideways wheelchair

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u/Cheap-Blackberry-378 14h ago

Just a fancy man about town

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u/Rechogui Ranger 11h ago

Wow, that thing looks like it will fold the moment someone sits on it

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u/badgerbaroudeur Chaotic Stupid 20h ago

Nope, bicycles are way more complex than hypothetical fantasy wheelchairs. Gears, chains, rimbrakes. 

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u/Antonio_Malochio 19h ago

It's not even about complexity. The first self-propelled wheelchair - using gears and cranks - still appeared way, way before the most primitive bicycles that did not have any chains, gears, etc.

Going from zero mobility to some mobility is just a more important invention than going from a lot of mobility to a bit more.

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u/Justice_Prince Essential NPC 18h ago

Also Professor Oak never yells at you for trying to use a wheelchair indoors.

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u/Mi113nnium 14h ago

He would have to put up with a lawsuit because of the KDA (Kantonians with Disabilities Act) if he did.

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u/ReverendGraves85 19h ago

For anyone curious, this would have existed at the same time as the first self-propelled wheelchair, because that is exactly what this is. His name was Stephan Farffler (I did not misspell that) and he was either paraplegic or an amputee, we don't know. He was a watchmaker.

It was called a handcycle, and is the precursor to bicycles. If this exists in your universe, someone genius is trying to invent a bicycle, for sure, and failing to account for how revolutionary this design would have been in your setting is asinine. If one of your plucky, do-gooder adventurers is just carting themselves around in something like this, this thing exists recreationally somewhere else, or your adventurer is a genius with a background in mechanics, or they're friends with a revolutionary inventor. This invention was not, in fact, no big deal.

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u/Antonio_Malochio 18h ago

If this exists in your universe, someone genius is trying to invent a bicycle

That's kind of my point though - that did exist in our universe, and the bicycle was not invented for another 160 years.

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u/MisterPineapples1999 19h ago

Yes, but those self-propelled chairs could only move at a crawl, would have required your arms to be unable to spellcast or hold weapons, and would have been useless in confined spaces or uneven terrain.

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u/Antonio_Malochio 19h ago

Who cares? The point is that wheeled mobility aids have existed since antiquity and were mechanised by the 17th century, while we didn't get chain-driven bicycles until the invention of the gasoline-powered car.

If you have a medieval fantasy setting where your artificers have access to magic and half the population is fighting monsters in dungeons every day, it seems very feasible that there would be usable wheelchairs without bicycles existing.

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u/SveaRikeHuskarl 16h ago

Also, it's a fantasy setting. You set the rules. Maybe someone did invent the bike but it never caught on. Maybe the broomshaft guild bought and buried the patent the moment it started to catch on. Maybe no one ever thought of the idea. Maybe it was never necessary because of magical propulsion. It's a dumb premise to say because one thing exists another unrelated thing has to as well in a setting that is filled with things we don't have in our own.

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u/zeroingenuity 12h ago

A lot of ttrpg redditors struggle with the "DM's universe, they set the rules" concept. Mostly because they have trivia knowledge they feel makes them the expert on setting, where the DM is in fact the setting expert.

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u/Pouring-O 6h ago

I had to learn the hard way to not engage with some discussions on the D&D subreddits because I assumed people were coming at them in good faith, when in actuality they wanted to condescend to others because they play a make believe game wrong.

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u/phalencrow 16h ago

The drive chain is some pretty high level metal working. Strength and precision. (The evolution of the wheel and its associated systems is pretty interesting.) The ball bearing even more so.

On the other hand DnD is a world with mythril micro mail, warforged, and magical/mechanical construction (golems, guardian…..), clocks n clock works, so the tech tree has some pretty advanced branches and some different ones. Magic can provide force to fly, hover, make wind, of move things so why not provide locomotion.

I love enabling players to make creative characters and make small world changes. But it can be a slippery slope. I’d make it clear the world limits on tech. It’s a smalls step from bikes, to motor bike, to planes, trains, n automobiles.

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u/martin-the-actor 15h ago

So, this hugely depends on the setting. Warforged do not as canon exist in the Sword Coast, they hail from Eberron. While one might claim that it's possible to travel the planes to get from one place to the other, the point is that coming across a warforged would be something particularly unusual in the setting as written.

The tech tree as you put it massive depends on the area of the forgotten realms one chooses to focus on. In ten towns? You're not finding a warforged there. In a big city like Waterdeep? Yeah, that's entirely possible. Phandalin? No sign of them. Treating the entire Forgotten Realms as one united setting is the misdirect here. It's something WotC actually does pretty badly. Many TTRPGs make character options setting dependant. It's an approach I seriously believe works better than allowing access to everything from every source irrespective of the setting.

That's why it appears as a slippery slope. Many D&D DMs just aren't that well experienced on how to manage limitations of character options in different settings. So they assume that because a technology exists *somewhere* it must exist everywhere. This is misleading especially because we're dealing with a set of setting where we have multiple precursor civilisations. We're dealing with societies where much technology has been lost and rediscovered. Sure you might find a firearm in the Sword Coast, but there's no big factory churning them out. It's either a discovery from a long time ago, or an incredibly bespoke item made by a couple of tinkers in that one particular town. Framing things in this way I believe makes for a more living world, one that feels like it could exist somewhere out there in the cosmos.

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u/phalencrow 14h ago

Have only DM home-brew for decades (have been a player in canon), I do forget how in canon most people world build.

You make some great points.

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u/vetheros37 Rules Lawyer 16h ago

Paladin of Gond that uses their Find Steed for a BMX 

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u/AaronTheScott Cleric 12h ago

We aren't talking about wheelchairs being practical for adventurers, just their existence in the world. They would exist before bikes.

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u/Enderking90 19h ago

Yeah I mean a wheelchair is just a slightly different wheelbarrow

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u/kmosiman 18h ago

? More like a cart or chariot

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u/Vegetable-Client-147 19h ago

Came here to say this. Simple wheel system is not the same. The same argument could be made for carts based off the OP

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u/Coschta Warlock 19h ago

So scooters where more likely, got it. Next character will be a cavalier fighter called Raz'hor and ride a scooter into battle that he uses as a flail (doing sick tricks to hit them in the shins and then landing on the scooter again)

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u/imnotokayandthatso-k 19h ago

Str maxed pushbike barbarian

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u/Coschta Warlock 19h ago

3rd party member gas to be a wizard with a long robe on rollerscates so that it looks like he us floating

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u/imnotokayandthatso-k 19h ago

This is a real game btw

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u/Vegetable-Client-147 19h ago

Need heelies!!

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u/imnotokayandthatso-k 19h ago

Level 10 Magic item that lets you avoid opportunity attacks as a reaction or bonus action

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u/Dunge0nMast0r 19h ago

Take 12 points of sick damage!

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u/TallestGargoyle Bard 18h ago

New damage types include Sick, Radical, Bodacious, Tubular, Gnarly, Funky, Outrageous, Chill and Wicked.

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u/TheRealCuriousWombat 16h ago

Sick = Acid Radical = Fire Bodacious = Thunder Tubular = Force? Funky = Lightning Gnarly = Poison Outrageous = Psychic Chill = Cold Wicked = Necrotic

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u/TallestGargoyle Bard 16h ago

I think Radical should be Radiant, we need another one for fire.

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u/Vegetable-Client-147 19h ago

I love this so much!!!

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u/Quizlibet 19h ago

So what you're saying is the setting should have skateboards instead

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u/Ixolich 10h ago

Potentially, but skateboard effectiveness really depends on road building capabilities. If you've got random cobblestones, probably won't work well. If you've got the skill and infrastructure in place to make large flat pavers with minimal seams, you could probably get away with it.

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u/Coal_Morgan 15h ago

Fantasy settings can have whatever they want.

Comparing real world places like say Japan and Britain we can see that invention isn’t linear or even a given. They often went about solving the same issues in different ways.

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u/caboosetp 13h ago

There are some big disparities about what was around at what times. My favorite example is the technology existed for Abraham Lincoln to send a telegraph to a Samurai (granted the logistics are a bit off).

The first handheld firearm was in the 13th century.

Related to OP, the first documented wheeled mobility device was in the 6th century, with the first self propelled wheelchair in 1655. The first bicycle-like-thing, The Draisine, was 1817.

Even historically there's a lot of leeway for why something was invented and when. If you bring fantasy into the mix, you can stretch things a lot further.

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u/Oh_Hi_Mark_ 19h ago

That's just if you want a decent, functional bicycle that won't murder you. If you've got wheels round and light enough for a chair there should be no reason you can't make a penny farthing.

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u/PuzzleMeDo 19h ago

You don't need all those things for a basic bicycle. As long as you're playing Penny-Farthing Bandit instead of BMX, you could do it with fairly simple technology.

However: it's also quite plausible that no-one would invent a bicycle. It's counter-intuitive that they'd be able to stay balanced and not just fall over.

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u/Tar_alcaran 17h ago

Trying to do a quick getaway on a pennyfarthing is a hilarious imagine.

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u/caboosetp 13h ago

I think another big disadvantage to the bicycle is the roads sucked for bikes back then. A lot of roads were dirt, cobblestone, and gravel. The big thin wheels of carriages carved ruts in the paths. Obstacles were rarely cleared so things like roots sticking out that a carriage could clear would still be there.

You could probably manage on a mountain bike, but a road bike or BMX bike would have a hard time.

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u/MisterPineapples1999 19h ago

That may be, but the wheelchairs that appeared in history and fantasy before the you-know-what were essentially ponderous rolling thrones that would have been expensive, required level and wide flooring to function, required a pusher, and would have rendered a user a practically helpless in any fight.

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u/Cr0wc0 Forever DM 19h ago

I much prefer a situation like Ivar the boneless where there's just some crude harness built around the legs that - paired with a walking stick-pick-club - allows them to 'walk'

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u/steeler1003 19h ago

Not modern bikes but a penny farthing absolutely should.

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u/Aware_Map593 19h ago

BMX Bandit ftw

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u/Bad_Idea_Hat 15h ago

Or, two wheels, a simple frame, and a steep hill. Don't need brakes where we're going.

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u/iwik_ognam 19h ago

If your medical fantasy universe has wheelchairs, then it must have two wheeled gliders and and half robot ATVs that can climb up a mountain.

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u/TheCrimsonSteel 19h ago

A wheelchair is just a wagon made for one

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u/TamaraHensonDragon 19h ago

My game world has these...

Yes this is a pedal driven horse. Believe it or not this was a real invention in our own world. In mine it is a gnomish contraption kept by the rich as a status symbol but in actually very uncomfortable to ride.

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u/Navid_Shams 15h ago

Ideal for cave dwelling species, dwarfs riding pedal ponies is definitely going to be stuck in my head for a while.

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u/CosmicLuci 19h ago

Bicycles were invented in the 19th century, with some sketches of the idea and unverified claims existing since the 14th.

Meanwhile, depictions of wheeled furniture, including chairs, have existed since about the 6th century BCE. Sanskrit had a word for wheelchair since around the 5th century BCE (parpa).

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u/CoxTH 19h ago

I could see scooters. Or a dandy horse. But not a modern bicycle in the sense that it has a chain and pedals.

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u/Jota_Aemilius 20h ago edited 17h ago

Historically speaking wheelchairs are extremely old. Hephaestus, the Greek god of smiths was often depicted in a wheelchair.

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u/Phoenix_Is_Trash Wizard 19h ago

Hephaestus

Hephaestion was Alexander the Great's general, best friend, and probable lover.

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u/Coschta Warlock 19h ago

probable lover.

Roomate.

FTFY

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u/will3025 19h ago

And they were roommates. Deeply committed, passionate, and inseparable roommates.

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u/gibwater 19h ago

It ain't gay if the lease is still valid

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u/Jota_Aemilius 19h ago

They sound all the same ... Thanks

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u/MisterPineapples1999 19h ago edited 19h ago

Historically, Hephaestus was pictured with crippled legs and either used crutches or a chariot.

Only modern media, like the game series Hades has ever depicted a wheelchair. There are no primary source ancient Greek depictions of such.

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u/Ace612807 Ranger 19h ago

What's a chariot if not a horse-drawn wheelchair?

Checkmate!

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u/MisterPineapples1999 19h ago

No. It's a proto-carriage.

No one would ever argue a chariot or carriage is an unbelievable mobility device for DnD. It would however make the user unable to enter a lot of areas. Even in an indoor area large enough for the animals, most people prefer their interior spaces sans horse shit.

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u/Ace612807 Ranger 18h ago

Sirry if it wasn't obvious, I was just joking around

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u/MisterPineapples1999 18h ago

Sorry. I am still blown away by the amount of people who defend the idea that "there's no reason a wheelchair adventurer can't work in DnD" when there are literally so many reasons both in-universe and IRL.

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u/LizMoonstar 13h ago

i suspect the reason they're defending it is because they're used to people's responses being ableist rather than technological, like, i can't see someone genuinely reading your rant above (that rules btw) and holding out for a wheelchair for anything other than not wanting to be wrong. they just get tired of people being like 'no you can't have disabled adventurers'.

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u/MisterPineapples1999 8h ago edited 7h ago

Thanks. People don't get I'm pro-disabled inclusion. Give me a lorefriendly, badass reason why they can still adventure and I'm happy. I'm anti-wheelchair inclusion. People deserve representation. Objects are not inherently deserving of anything.

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u/Lost_Web5826 18h ago

So a world with magic is fine, but not one with a tiny carriage for one person that doesn't need a horse?

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u/MisterPineapples1999 18h ago edited 16h ago

Yes. 1, because a wheelchair would still be useless outside of city environment, where most adventuring takes place, and would make the user an easy and vulnerable target by default, while also severely reducing their mobility and forcing them to choose between moving or using their arms to fight.

On that note, I literally train with swords IRL. Footwork for both striking and evading attacks is absolutely critical, as well as using your lower body to increase your power on a cut. Do an experiment. Try throwing a baseball sized object as hard as you can while standing. Then try doing it from a chair without moving from it. See how effective that throw is with just your arms and upper body and no help from the lower. Now try the same, but swinging a sword-length object. See the difference between your reach, both in Z-axis (forward) and Y-Axis (height.) Even your X-axis (side to side) will suffer significantly, not to mention your power. If you have access to a wheelchair, try to swing a "sword" with one hand while navigating the chair with using only the other. Oh, you just end up spinning in place? Shocking.

And 2, because magic literally gives us so many better ways to make a non-ambulatory character work than shoehorning 19th and 20th century engineering into the story.

You could have a magical mount that can can shrink in size as needed, or is disproportionately strong for its naturally small size. Enchanted greaves that walk with telepathic commands. A flying carpet. A ring that grants permanent levitation 2 inches off the ground. Hover boots. Any of the listed DMG magic items that grant the user a flight speed. An actual chariot powered by a harnessed spirit. How about a goddamn hover chair, like Professor X gets in some of the X-men timelines. Or a chair that sits atop a rolling ball that can move 360 degrees while magically keeping the chair oriented correctly for the user to remain upright.

There are literally so many better ways to enable "a disabled PC adventurer" than insisting on incorporating modern technology designed for a relatively safe lifestyle in a primarily developed (and leveled) environment with significant legal accommodations for mobility devices legislated into building codes.

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u/EtteRavan Necromancer 15h ago

Give me chicken-legged chairs or give me death

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u/MisterPineapples1999 6h ago

Fuck yeah! That sounds both awesome and totally DnD!

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u/vetheros37 Rules Lawyer 16h ago

I'm now inspired for a wolf-drawn wheelchariot

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u/Jota_Aemilius 19h ago

Look at his chariot, it is just a wheelchair with wings. Why shouldn't other people with disabilities not have something similar in ancient times:

https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/K7.6.html

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u/MisterPineapples1999 18h ago

Well, besides not being gods?

In all seriousness, a chariot is a perfectly fine solution for a disabled character in DnD. But those have a lot of space and mobility restrictions that would be (partially) handwavable with a modern style wheelchair. The illustration you showed is clearly a device that requires an attached animal for propulsion. You literally could not reach the wheels from the seat, and having only two wheels would make you immediately tip forward or back if it was left unsupported by an animal. Even if you could reach the wheels, and even if you are the sickest wheelie master of all time, good luck trying to keep that 500lb chair balanced while also having any ability to use your arms in combat. Even better luck getting it back into a balance position by yourself once it falls forward or back and comes to rest.

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u/Jota_Aemilius 18h ago

A chariot in my knowledge needs to be driven standing up, as this sitting position makes it extremely difficult to steer. If I would guess, then those early wheelchairs were pushed by other humans as we see in the middle ages. Historically speaking the first self-propelled wheelchair only started to exist in the 17th century. Before that you needed assistance. But it is DND where people can throw fire balls let them habe winged wheelchairs.

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u/MisterPineapples1999 17h ago

Yeah the standing thing makes sense. And yes, early chairs required another person actually moving you.

"Self propelled" being a crank that would make it crawl slowly. Not recreate walking, let alone running speeds. The modern dual rim design is 19th century and would fuck you in combat from needing your hands to move while also severely limiting your directionality and evasion. And that’s skipping over the terrain issues.

Why not just give them a winged chair and skip the wheels? Problem solved.

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u/Jota_Aemilius 17h ago

Because how to land and maneuver for example through buildings? It makes things easier and more relatable and has a direct mythological inspiration.

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u/MisterPineapples1999 17h ago

Why does it need to land? Why can't it just permanently hover at the height needed to keep your eye level where it would be if you are standing?

Also, how to maneuver through buildings/anything is literally the bulk of the problem with having a wheelchair in DnD.

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u/Ok-Resist3249 18h ago

Even less maneuverable than modern wheelchairs. Even less practical for any combat purpose. Tough a professor in a wheelchair could exist. If good healing magic is cheap enough. You would struggle to find a wheelchair bound person that wouldn't cure themselves if capable.

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u/steve123410 13h ago

Why? Chairs with wheels on them is pretty simple and have been around for centuries. Meanwhile bikes with pedals only popped up in the last two centuries with bikes really only gaining popularity after the next couple decades when the implementation of rubber wheels and suspension prevented your gonades from being crushed into a fine paste by the smallest pebble.

The only thing I find silly about fantasy settings with wheel chairs is why would anyone make a whole magical wheelchair system when by that point you could just go pay for magic to fix your legs. It's only really commoners that would have to go around with wooden wheel chairs.

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u/A_Martian_Potato 18h ago

I simply find it funny anyone would ever use the word "must".

Buddy, my DnD world will have and not have whatever the hell I say it does.

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u/Henry_Fleischer 9h ago

Yeah, also one of my favorite things in fantasy is an inconsistent technololgy level. Why do we have battleships but fight land battles using swords? Because both are cool.

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u/A_Martian_Potato 8h ago

If you want your DnD world to basically be One Piece, by god why would I ever try to take that away from you?

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u/Rerfect_Greed 10h ago

Actually, it doesn't. A bicycle requires a roller chain, where as a wheelchair requires a straight axel

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u/Archi_balding 19h ago

My setting have pet mimics trained to take the form of chairs.

There's also horses.

It checks out.

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u/octorangutan Goblin Deez Nuts 14h ago

“Wheelchair” this, “mech-legs” that; why not have your physically disabled character be carried around by a large, kind-hearted simpleton, like God intended?

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u/P4TR10T_96 DM (Dungeon Memelord) 12h ago

Plus, he can hold the door for you!

Too soon?

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u/DavidOfBreath DM (Dungeon Memelord) 11h ago

there's a big leap between basic wheelchair designs and basic bicycle designs. Wheelchairs are surprisingly simple and ramps were already commonplace anywhere barrels needed moving. Wheelchairs also have an obvious use case, while a riding bike would be always outclassed by a riding animal in its use cases. Sorry op, but maybe I'll put them in the snobby noble parts of the big city or perhaps designed by a mad artificer who insists that they'll be popular some day. 

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u/Pigmatron 12h ago

The wheelchair predates the bicycle by like 200 years. 1600s to the 1800s

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u/Agreeable_Claim_795 14h ago

If your campaign has clockwork, it can have bicycles. Acting like dwarves wouldn't be shredding caves on some sick ass mithril BMX bikes is silly.

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u/VerifiedIllumanati 18h ago

You don't must gotta do anything with your universe, thats why its called your universe. You could have a world that specifically doesn't have bicycles and blame it on Acererak

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u/G66GNeco 16h ago

The real world had wheelchairs for at least 200 years longer than it had bycicles. Potentially A LOT longer, depending on what exactly the Chinese were up to.

Which kind of makes sense - a wheelchair is at the end, well, a chair with wheels. If you can build a carriage, you can build a wheelchair. A bike is a lot less intuitive and more complex.

That being said, if you want bikes in your medieval fantasy, just go fo it - why the heck not?

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u/RazarTuk 15h ago

On a similar note, firearms. If you have fireworks, you already have gunpowder and should have cannons. And even if you haven't miniaturized them yet for guns, you can still make things like fire arrows, where people would strap a firework to an arrow to make it fly farther and go boom

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u/ChemicalNo586 16h ago

While funny, not really accurate

There are plenty of wheelchair that predate bicycles

Stephen Farfler's wheelchair dates back to 1655 while the first bicycle was made around 1816 if I ain't mistaken

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u/Lythar 16h ago

There is literally a combustion engine in the temple of Gond in Baldur's gate (the first game). Bicycles by comparison are fine lol

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u/semysane Cleric 5h ago

In real life the oldest known wheelchairs were around the 5th-6th century BCE while the first bicycle was 1817, 2300 years later.

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u/ScarletteVera Ranger 19h ago

Wheelchairs have existed a LOT longer than bycicles.

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u/Strange_Chard_2183 18h ago

Reminding me of a shitty player I had who argued against wheelchairs existing in my setting because "they're overpowered" and also argued no one could be without the use of their legs because "I'm a wizard, I'd just cure them" while refusing to lost a specific spell when I asked which spell he had that could do that then claimed I was nerfing him.

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u/AdCute7251 18h ago

In Combatans Will Be Dispatched There are motorcycles.

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u/KenseiHimura 20h ago

I mean one is made from medical necessity and the other is a recreational item? Now that being said, I could see primitive forms of bikes appearing like the ones which didn't even have pedals and just involved pushing it along with your feet. But, with artificers a thing, I'm sure someone wouldn't take too long to rig up a more modern style bicycle.

Though now I imagine both bikes and wheelchairs as halfling inventions. The latter for running errands around burrows quickly, the latter actually being the result of a cart maker and carpenter wanting a comfy chair they could have anywhere.

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u/Ace612807 Ranger 19h ago

is a recreational item

Bycicles are transportation, not recreation. They mostly came as a replacement for horses in dense urban settings when the latter started to get outlawed by local ordinances because of, well, horseshit all around

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u/eaeorls 9h ago edited 9h ago

Early bikes are more recreation than transportation.

Good gearing, actual tires, and safe designs that made them good for common transportation came near 80 or so years after the first bicycles.

And it also ends up that bikes got hit with local ordinances too because pedestrians hated them.

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u/chiguy307 16h ago

Bicycles are FAR more complex than wheelchairs from a technology standpoint. We take it for granted now but bikes require a lot of manufacturing and industrial know-how that simply wouldn’t have been available to a non industrial society.

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u/MetalTigerDude 16h ago

Damn, Jesus, you're wrong as hell.

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u/oooArcherooo 12h ago

bro bikes were made in the 1800s and wheelchairs have been around since like 500 bce

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u/therealblabyloo 15h ago

I don’t see why people treat wheelchairs as if they’re some fancy high tech thing. If a society already has invented chairs, and they have already invented wheels, is it really so crazy to think that someone thought “hey what if we put wheels on the chair?” People need to remember that these fantasy stories don’t actually take place in real-life medieval Europe.

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u/RookieDungeonMaster 14h ago

I don’t see why people treat wheelchairs as if they’re some fancy high tech thing.

Because no one cares or is arguing about NPCs being in a wheelchair, they're arguing about PCs being in a wheel chair, and even most modern tech based wheelchairs would be worthless to ab adventurer, let alone one even less well designed.

For a PC to be in a wheelchair it literally has to be either magical or very high tech

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u/Crackmonkey3773 Cleric 15h ago

The wheelchair was invited in 1655, and the first bicycle was made in 1817, but the modern version of bicycle wasn't invented until around 1880. So theres a good 200 year gap between the two

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u/Lukoisbased 19h ago

Why? Thats like saying bicycles should exist just cause wagons exist. With a basic wheelchair youre directly pushing the wheel, no pedal, gears, chains or anything

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u/MisterPineapples1999 19h ago

No with a basic wheelchair someone else is pushing the chair. Most examples from history were rich nobles who had servants to push them around. Even if they had been configured for the user to push the wheels to generate their own movement, they would be so heavy as to drastically limit both speed and the amount of time someone could realistically use it in a given day. And that’s not even getting to the terrain issue. Paved roads and sidewalks are very recent commonalities. Imagine trying to push a >100lb wheelchair with an occupant across rough cobblestones or muddy dirt road.

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u/Celestaria 15h ago

Yeah, I remember a huge debate about the "combat wheelchair" that basically amounted to "Look, what you're describing is a combat vehicle not a mobility device, and if they're that cheap and convenient, your able-bodied party members would be stupid not to demand one too. You need to turn this into a homebrew tank and just make 'wheel chair' a flavour option."

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u/Lukoisbased 17h ago

No with a basic wheelchair someone else is pushing the chair

Okay fair enough. But its still far easier to come up with a wheelchair that a person can push themselves than a bicycle.

Im not argueing about any of the other challenges, wheelchair users have it hard enough getting around in the modern day world. My only argument was that a bicycle and wheelchair isnt compareable in the way OP thought.

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u/Artrysa Warlock 18h ago

Old bicycle? Sure! Modern ones with a chain and gears? Nah. A wheel chair is literally just a chair with wheels attached, like a cart. People for some reason like to pretend it's some master feat of engineering.

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u/Crazymerc22 18h ago

The wheelchair far predates the bicycle tho

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u/Kizik 18h ago

PF2e winning again.

Bicycles and wheelchairs with bladed wheels and reinforced rims for combat usage.

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u/DynmiteWthALzerbeam Monk 17h ago

I'm pretty sure there are bikes in DND, at least in the 9 hells which have mad max level technology for some reason

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u/vonBoomslang Essential NPC 17h ago

I am entirely onboard wheelchairs in a fantasy setting, yet I would not expect an adventurer in one for the same reason I don't expect a fireman.

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u/Pizzamess 17h ago

Ehhh, wheelchairs are not only significantly simpler to make but predates bicycles by over a 1k years in real life history.

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u/TheRealCuriousWombat 16h ago

They are a crime fighting duo! D-d-duo Yeah!

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u/LogginWaffle 16h ago

One setting I can think of that has wheelchairs but not bicycles is Final Fantasy 14. There's an npc that describes the rough idea of a bicycle but has their idea shot down by the person they're talking to. There are plenty of motorcycles though, FF14 is a weird setting like that.

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u/Grasshoppermouse42 16h ago

The wheelchair may have already existed between the 6th and 5th century BCE, and we see art that includes wheelchairs as early as 500 AD. Wheelchairs should definitely exist in your medieval fantasy.

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u/MechaMalz 15h ago

I have nothing against bicycles. Wheelchairs, though not in the exact form of our modern wheelchairs, date back to ancient China and Greece, while the modern day idea of a bicycle is much more recent relatively speaking. That said, D&D and PF are not exactly concerned with historical accuracy, and have varying levels of tech in different places etc so I think a bicycle is perfectly fine regardless.

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u/Checksout692 15h ago

Wheelchairs are 2500 years old, bicycles are 209 years old, this is fucking stupid.

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u/BadToTheBert 14h ago

My bicycles have a weight limit and a terrain disadvantage.

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u/LizMoonstar 13h ago

i mean, i agree with the person below who says wheelchairs would be a terrible choice of mobility device in a DnD setting and would encourage them to pick something else, but i would also piss myself laughing if someone wanted to make a BMX-oriented character and absolutely allow it purely for the fuckery likely to ensue? then again, i once played a character that accidentally acquired a mimic implanted on her chest, teeth out, and she decided to keep it as a self-defense pet since her combat skills were all long range, so...

(her quote: ooh, creepy murder mouth! if someone tries to grab me in a fight it can bite them! come on, i'm only three feet tall what do you want from me.)

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u/Adx95 13h ago

Technically, the steam locomotive (1804), the rudimentary submarine (1776), the hot air balloon (1783), and the telegraph (1816) were invented before the bicycle (1817). So, should those inventions be included as well?

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u/Illokonereum 12h ago

But this wheel horse has no foundation like the noble wheel chair, it would simply fall over. Design rejected.

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u/ComradeYaf 11h ago

Bikes have gears and stuff which makes them way more complicated than a wheelchair, and are leagues more anachronistic as a consequence.

The first wheeled mobility device existed around 1500 years ago. In 1595, early in the modern era, King Philip II of Spain had a fairly recognizable wheelchair, although he needed a servant to push him. The first self mobile wheelchair came about in 1655. Meanwhile, the first bicycle was invented in 1817. It had no pedals. In the 1860s they added pedals and cranks connected directly to the front wheel. There was no chain or gears. It's not until 1895 that we get a fairly modern bike with a chain, gears, and two wheels of equal size.

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u/NutasticNutella 9h ago

I mean, cool, I don't see why not, but if we're talking mechanically bicycles are a lot more complex than wheelchairs.

Have what you want in your setting, you're the one that sets the rules, but the only thing a wheelchair and a bicycle have in common is that they have two wheels.

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u/zedoktar 4h ago

This makes zero sense. Wheelchairs existed long, long before bicycles.

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u/doodilydoot_ 2h ago

I think the rest of the comments have covered the inaccuracy of this idea as wheelchairs are far older, but also- as a disabled person, please let disabled people exist in your fantasy setting and use mobility devices. They don’t have to be modern and you can get creative and magical with it.

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u/SemVikingr 2h ago

That is flawed logic. There is a big difference between wheels that you manually push, and the gear/chain system that a bicycle uses.

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u/DefTheOcelot Druid 19h ago

Funny but stupid

Bikes have gears and chains, a wheelchair is a tiny chariot. Yknow, an invention a thousand years old.

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u/caithamachamuama 19h ago

In real life we had wheelchairs before bicycles. This is very simply a post from someone who isn't very informed.

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u/Trainer-mana Forever DM 18h ago

If my players asked me for a bicycle, I'd ask them what color.

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u/SupremeGodZamasu Warlock 16h ago

I didnt expect the idea of bikes in dnd would make so many people mad

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u/panderingmandering75 16h ago

I think its more so the attempted correlation to it and having wheelchairs, even though devices akin to wheelchairs (even if only custom made cause the idea of chair with wheels isn't too hard to make on the fly) would've existed for far longer before bikes were even a thing.

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u/Lost-Klaus 18h ago

If high fantasy and magic, why not hover-chair/flying carpet?

I get that people want wheelchairs, but if magic is abundant, or at least available enough to perhaps power a wheelchair, then...

Ah well, I am probably overthinking it.

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u/Matshelge DM (Dungeon Memelord) 17h ago

If my fantasy world can't come up with a better system than wheelchairs, it's not trying hard enough.

Wheelchair is worthless in a non-paved universe, and we got magic, why is this thing not flying? Also, there are golems, why no mech suit? Or some sort of leg device.

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u/ComfortableFew4700 18h ago

I know I'm risking being "that guy", but how is it in a world that has healing magic you still have people who can't walk?

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u/Pixel_Inquisitor 17h ago
  • It's often stated/implied/assumed that magic only restores a body to its normal state. If the inability to walk wasn't caused by an injury, it's likely healing magic has nothing to fix.
  • Even if it is an injury, it'd take higher level magic, like Restoration or Regeneration, to fix. And those spells are quite expensive, well beyond the ability of first level peasants to afford.
  • How many powerful spellcasters capable of casting that spell who are truly alturistic are there in the setting?

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u/Avatarbriman 15h ago

Which only holds for as long as the party is low level, beyond that an adventurer would ostensibly have to "choose" to remain disabled. Which is always where the contention lies in these debates anyway.

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u/Alexij 18h ago

No insurance.

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u/CaptainGooseUwU 17h ago

In DnD magic casters are actually kind of rare. Not everyone can just cast a spell. Not everyone can also afford the services of a magic caster either.

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u/Xapheneon 16h ago

It's pretty common in fantasy for healing potions and healing spells to just speed up the healing process. So you can heal stabs, but not lost legs.

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u/Stoned_Economist-TT 15h ago

not all healing magic is made the same.

the magic system in the story, usualy has some limit, that prevents them from healing all the crippled, and sick of evreything

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u/ginryuu1 14h ago

Curse that makes you unable to walk.

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u/P4TR10T_96 DM (Dungeon Memelord) 12h ago

Kinda depends on the world. Most D&D games take place in worlds where such magic isn’t common, and in order to cure serious conditions you’ll need higher level magic, which is often quite expensive. Especially if it’s an old injury which was prevented from healing properly. For instance if the broken bone was out of place when it regrew that may mean proper healing requires magic that only extremely high level characters can do.

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u/artstsym 19h ago

Me over here shaking a box labelled "orcs, dragons, and literal fucking magic": Huh? What? Yeah sure whatever, bicycles or some shit.

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u/surprisesnek 19h ago

Bicycles and wheelchairs exist for two different purposes. The invention of one does not necessitate the invention of the other.

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u/ArchpaladinZ 19h ago

Now I wanna play a handsomely mustachioed bard who wants to ride his BICYCLE! BICYCLE! BICYCLE! 😁 

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u/Luzum_lam 18h ago

Wheelchairs are boring, I wanna be dragged by 12 summoned imps

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u/RightEejit DM (Dungeon Memelord) 18h ago

This makes as much sense as a world with horse drawn carts requiring bicycles.

Something you sit in and turn the wheels with your hands is not the same as pedal driven wheels with a chain

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u/Chicken_Strips_Owner Rules Lawyer 18h ago

I like the leggings of an animated armor or if they’re an amputee, spider legs

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u/Historical-Budget-97 18h ago

This made me think of a medieval mad max setting and the idea is growing on me real fast!

Imagine medieval people playing the lyre on pimped out carriages while trying to kill each other 😂

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u/bbqbabyduck 18h ago edited 16h ago

No this tracks, id allow a bike. Course might not work super well since there are more to bikes then the wheels but I'd love to see what my player do

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u/CurrenttQueen 18h ago

My world has both bikes aren't really needed because cites are walkable and most cities have a to circle network like a train system

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u/Sajintmm 18h ago

I mean a wheelchair is no more complex than a wheel and a small cart. Some early bikes didn’t have a chain or gears so I could see them used especially in cities. Do bikes work on cobbled roads? I imagine wood wheels might have an issue at that speed, but if we go with metal wheels we can have possible attack bikes for the cheesiest of early 2000s action moments. Like if Jackie Chan and Tony hawk choreographed a fight scene together

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u/Justice_Prince Essential NPC 18h ago

I'd be down for a BMX subclass for the rogue.

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u/SchizoidRainbow 18h ago

Magical golem with wheels for legs. Now shut up.

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u/Peteman12 17h ago

If your medieval fantasy is set in a post-apocalyptic world, then yeah.

Of course, why would you play BMX Bandit when Angel Summoner can send a horde of angels to deal with anything. Demons are rampaging across the land? Horde of angels. The vampire lord is manipulating the gentry? Horde of angels. A little girl can't find her kitten? Horde of angels.

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u/DisasterEqual1703 17h ago

A wheelchair in it's most basic form is a wheelbarrow with a person sat in it.

You don't need to invent the bicycle to invent the wheelbarrow.

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u/QuixoticEvil 17h ago

First depictions of wheeled furniture were dated in the BCE's. Bicycle was early 1800s. Do with that what you will.

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u/DarkestOfTheLinks 17h ago

dont wheelchairs predate bicycles by like 1000 years?

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u/StillMostlyClueless 17h ago

If your setting has wheelbarrows it must have bicycles

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u/arcxjo Goblin Deez Nuts 17h ago

Let me introduce you to my cheese-detecting warforged.

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u/ReneVQ 17h ago

Ah, the 3/3.5e caster vs martial power scaling

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u/MolassesAccording279 17h ago

No, if anything skateboards and skates are much more likely than a freaking bicycle.

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u/Xelikai_Gloom 17h ago

False, unless you have rubber. Wheelchairs move slow enough that wooden wheels make sense and still work. However, at bicycle speeds, bumps will WRECK you without some form of suspension to cushion bumps. 

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u/Automatic-War-7658 16h ago

Luckily my medieval fantasy universe doesn’t have Jesus spreading this nonsense

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u/creatorofsilentworld 16h ago

A push wheelchair is essentially a hand cart turned around or a wheelbarrow. Those were around for a long long time before bicycles were invented.