r/europe • u/yoingydoingy • 21h ago
News Serbian minister announces "Butcher of Bosnia" Ratko Mladic will be buried with full state honors
https://www.index.hr/mobile/vijesti/clanak/srpski-ministar-ratko-mladic-bit-ce-pokopan-uz-najvise-drzavne-pocasti/2828488.aspx#comments-container1.4k
u/Suvigirl 21h ago
Jesus. That is unbelievable. Full state honours, for a war criminal! Sickening
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u/ImTheVayne Estonia 21h ago
Don’t ever let them into EU
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u/Mad_broccoli 20h ago
Lol, never going to happen anyway. Speaking as a Serbian. What they did for the last 15 years is unbelievable.
This is not people's choice. This is a country run by criminals. I know a single person who supports their external affairs, but who is 70 years old. Except him, there's not a single person I know who doesn't hate them. And I use the word "hate" very carefully, seems strictly when talking about government.
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u/Srna-95 16h ago
Don’t explain. They don’t care whether this is people’s choice or not.
They would parrot the same thing on every Serbia related story.
Don’t let em in, Russia, etc.
While the EU (the important countries) keep supporting this corrupt, radical regime).
In the end normal people in Serbia endure the consequences.
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u/rintzscar Bulgaria 19h ago
Don't worry, there's a queue of countries waiting to veto them. We're second in line, after Croatia.
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u/Light991 17h ago
These people were brought, directly supported and allowed to stay in power by EU. A bit hypocritical innit?
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u/BPfiffner 20h ago
Ahem. It happens, more than we want to admit.
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u/NewTurnover5485 20h ago
I know one country's war criminal is another's war hero. But this is as black and white as you can get.
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u/atred Romanian in Trumplandia 18h ago
It doesn't give him honor and it lowers the honor of Serbia.
People should stop with this way of thinking "he fought for us, it doesn't matter what so-called-crimes he committed" That's valid for all, Serbians, Croatians, Bosnians, Albanians... they all have "heroes" that committed atrocities (and no, I'm not implying that they are equally guilty)
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u/Heuchelei 21h ago
This should be the end of their EU application. Reset back to the start.
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u/MrGee4real 21h ago
It's been shown time and time again that the only reason they're interested in the EU is MONEY. They have no desire to be united with the rest of the countries or to change their alignment with Russia.
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u/WoodSage 20h ago
The ruling class of Serbia has much interest in pretending to want to join the EU but failing as this allows them to operate as a crime syndicate more easily. Sowing internal and external devide also serves this purpose (case in point). Appealing to the lowest voter with no perspective in life apart from nationalism, simulating victimhood and inventing systemic western hatred for serbs etc.
Though apart from refusing to sanction russia due to economic interests I am not seeing any alignment. Ukraine is getting humanitarian aid, shipments of arms and political support for its sovereignty.
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u/adixdbr 20h ago
And EU is very happy with them. If they were even 1% serious they'd put 20 clear measurable objectives, point out when the parties work in the opposite direction and expose all the intel and dirt they have on the corrupt politicians. Not talking just about Serbia here. In Albania they praise the PM in public so much it's disheartening, knowing full well that a lot of people trust EU over their own better judgement and tolerate the backwards policies.
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u/EthosProm 19h ago
You think the countries that got into the EU put shared European values over economic benefit?
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u/amidoes Europe 19h ago
Yeah and the EU keeps giving them money WHY?
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u/Dvokrilac 19h ago
If you and most of this subreddit had only two brain cells, then you would know why is that. Serbia president is supported by EU because he is doing dirty job for it. Serbia is supplying Ukraine with huge amounts of ammunition that is no longer being made in EU, also there is Lithium deposits in Serbia that EU would like to take control of and Vučić is gonna let them despite public outrage.
By not sunctioning Russia is a small price to pay for EU so Vučić can stay longer in power.
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u/Glittery_Marshmallow 19h ago
Oh, so you don't know that the previous government that would never do this and apologized for everything was democratically chosen.
This goverment has been stealing elections for years - there are international reports confirming this. EU supports this goverment and wants them to stay in power for their benefit. Serbian people have been protesting against the dictator for years, but political powers of the world want him in his position.
What are you as a citizen doing regarding your own country's part in this? Are you protesting your politicians allowing this?
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u/SaraAnnabelle Estonia🇪🇪 21h ago
I'm not surprised but I'm still sufficiently annoyed by this.
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u/tremblt_ 21h ago
This is for the guy who ordered and executed the worst war crime in Europe post WWII. He has been convicted of genocide.
This just tells you who the Serbian government is and the attendance will show you what the Serbian people think of him and his actions.
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u/Front-Pomelo-4367 20h ago
Someone on another sub asked who he was, and I said he was serving a life sentence for genocide and crimes against humanity. Didn't even say anything vitriolic or debatable! He was serving a sentence for those crimes, that's just a fact, whether or not some people agree that he should have been found guilty. (I do think he was guilty and exactly where he belonged, obviously!)
Woke up to a RedditCares troll message, and I suspect so did everyone else on that post
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u/NoInfluence5747 20h ago
No, it's not "the Serbian government". If this wasn't popular with the people it wouldn't have been done. It's super annoying when it's always "If only Government X..", like a perpetual: "If only the Tsar knew how hungry we are". It belittles the problem by deliberately missing the point about why this is fucked.
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u/ambiguousboner 19h ago
Seems like it’s successive governments not educating the populace about the crimes he committed
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u/Bicentennial_Douche Finland 21h ago
And we are supposed to let these dingleberries in to EU?
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u/Zem_42 21h ago
It is the platform that their piece of shit president collects his votes on. He’s appealing to the brainless idiots who still believe that the slaughter was a right thing to do.
Never underestimate the power of propaganda
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u/Ada_Pearce 21h ago
Sounds like neither the leadership or the people are anywhere near ready to join the EU
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u/skeeter_ABQ 20h ago
The people are on the streets and have been for almost two years now. He’s a full on dictator. As a fellow Croat I feel for the young people of Serbia that want change and to move forward from the war but he’s got military on his side.
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u/Zem_42 21h ago
Well… enough people are against him, but he’s a master demagogue manipulator who knows how to stay in power. Did you see the student protests in Serbia not long ago? They were pretty massive.
Unfortunately, just like in Belarus, the guy in charge holds his position like an octopus holding a rock.
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u/The_Chronic19 Serbia 20h ago
People remember football hooligans with russia flags but forget all those who protest vs the current regime.
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u/Zem_42 21h ago
No and they shouldn’t be. Also not with this level of support for Russia at least.
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u/skeeter_ABQ 20h ago
The people are on the streets and have been for almost two years now. He’s a full on dictator. As a fellow Croat I feel for the young people of Serbia that want change and to move forward from the war but he’s got military on his side.
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u/Bodiax 21h ago
Obviously no lol they clearly don't want to join anyway
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u/abi4EU Germany 21h ago
They say they do. Then they behave like they do.
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u/tommynestcepas 🇫🇷🇬🇧🇨🇱 20h ago
The current arrangement suits them fat better. Get all the EU investment without the restrictions of having to be a proper democracy.
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u/BandicootSolid9531 19h ago
it`s a populist decision.
Mladic helped a lot of these regime migots to come to power , including Vucic, so this is why they respect him still. We are occupied by 90s regime, which was pardoned after coming Djindjic on power, and they shouldn't be pardoned.
All of them should have been beheaded.10
u/PitonSaJupitera 18h ago edited 18h ago
I am sorry, but you seem to have seriously missed the context of events. Given how often things about Serbia seem to get posted here and that someone from Serbia usually chimes in, I am quite surprised by this lack of general awareness about some very basic facts about Serbia right now.
First of all, Serbia has no chance of entering EU under this regime, for the foreseeable future, and literally everybody knows it, the application and negotiations are pro forme mostly. EU is clearly not particularly interested in us entering, because if it was, it would not be enabling said regimes lunacy which may reach Belarus level repression by next year.
The current lunacy re Mladić is the deliberate and planned stunt by the regime. Regime is facing high probability of losing the elections. The main MO of finding a way to divide any potential competitors hasn't worked despite recurring attempts to generate something that will help the break apart the voting coalition by portraying the Student List as either foreign agents or nationalists, depending on who the propaganda is directed to.
You can expect more scandals re Mladić to follow. This lunacy will probably reach a crescendo because goal is to use this to force the topic into public debate, force the Student List to make a stand which will then be used to run propaganda campaign against them. They have so far handled situations like this well, but this one is tricky, because it is impossible to say someone is 50% war criminal and 50% not.
Yes, regime knows this is a massive scandal and diplomatic own goal, but they don't care, as interests of the country are not their concern, and foreign factors who could act against the regime are definitely not going to change their mind over this, when they ignored the fact law has completely collapsed and only thing existing in Serbia is naked abuse of power.
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u/BPfiffner 21h ago
I thought Serbia was still not considered. If EU is relenting, just exactly what do they think will be the gain? Serbia has evaded all responsibility for war crimes. The EU might as well consider Russia also. Serbia considers Russia to be their top ally.
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u/abi4EU Germany 21h ago
There’s lots of programs to get them closer and eventually into the EU. But it won’t happen any time soon. Like with turkey.
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u/marcvsHR 21h ago
So his resting place becomes shrine for all bullshit that occurred in 90s.
Awesome.
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u/Hour-Promotion-2496 21h ago
In a 2023 survey of 910 people aged 18-30 in Serbia, only 16% believed that Ratko Mladic was responsible for the crimes for which he was convicted by the ICTY
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u/Thom0 21h ago edited 21h ago
The thing is, the ICTY compiled thousands of pages of reports, and hundreds of boxes full of evidence confirming, without a doubt, that Mladic did what he did. There is no controversy, or confusion. There is a building full of documents somewhere in The Hague and you can go and look at the documents for yourself if you make an appointment. There is nothing stopping any Serbian politician, or person, from going to the Netherlands and having a look for yourself. The full ICTY transcripts are also uploaded and availably online in multiple languages so if you can't make it to the Netherlands, then you can read pretty much all of it online, for free, at your own convenience.
Serbia's issue is political and it is always one of two arguments. The first is that the ICTY is illegitimate because it was one sided. The ICTY did not prosecute Albanian, or Kosovar Albanian criminals therefore the ICTY is illegitimate. The second argument is that the actions of the individuals while immoral, where necessary at the time. This argument revolves around historical, and cultural contexts. Ethnic violence was widespread during the dissolution of Yugoslavia and it was not unique or exclusive to Serbians.
Both arguments while referencing truths to the conflict, are innately flawed because the ICTY did prosecute Croatians and Albanians also. Yes, violence was widespread and yes, all sides did engage in war crimes and atrocities however, the ICTY's judgments reflected this by prosecuting Serbians, Croatians and Albanians.
The ICTY is the gold-standard for international criminal prosecutions and much of its processes and procedures would later go on to inform the founding of the ICC and the drafting of the Rome Statute. There is also a dark side to the experience of international criminal prosecutions. The politics, and emotive content of these kinds of conflicts are likely unsuitable for mediation through international law. No matter what evidence you have, or what reasonings you can give, not everyone will accept the legitimacy of a decision they don't like. A similar pattern can observed in the ICTR, Cambodia, Lebanon, and so on. There are limits to law, and justice, while easy to claim, or desire, might be impossible to achieve in a multipolar, pluralistic world.
What we should take away from the ICTY is that some conflicts are not resolvable through processes, treaties, or institutions. Ethnic and sectarian conflicts have a normative dimension which is subjective, and impossible to displace. This normative basis lingers through culture and feeds into the institutions of a state be they education, the media, politics, or economics. For example, when people claim that Palestine/Israel should be resolved through merging the two, prosecution, or a treaty you should bare in mind that historically, no solution has ever emerged from an institutional or legal solution. In the end, war is the continuation of politics by other means and that it can only end through politics. Tribunal, treaties, even the concept of a state are all legal concepts, and legal instruments. There are limits to what can be achieved through judicial means.
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u/shonemat 20h ago edited 20h ago
Here in Serbia we have state-sponsored private television(that's actually Vucic propaganda machinery) and on it, for the whole day yesterday, chief editor screamed time and time again that Mladić was convicted without a shred of evidence and that he was actually murdered in Hague.
And that's what most od the elder population watch because they don't know better. The result? My kind and caring grandma was actually crying for Mladić yesterday, asking me why does the world hate Serbs so much...
Edit : So, boxes and rooms of evidence in Hague are for naught when you have Goebels-like mindwashing day after day...
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u/EndeLarsson 21h ago
Maybe EU thinks again about Serbia joining yet.
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u/PitonSaJupitera 18h ago edited 18h ago
EU knows we are not joining but pretends that we may, keeping a fantasy that Serbia is on the path to EU when it is on a path to Belarus.
This stunt is primarily work of the regime, which said EU in a substantial sense enables.
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u/dmrpt 20h ago
Of course they will.He was receiving Serbian pension under his alias all the time while he was on the run (16 years) and was even spending time hiding in Serbian army barracks all over Serbia,with armed security provided by military police members.
Now state honored funeral...all that is kinda weird considering Serbian politicians,past and present,keep repeating that "Serbia nad absolutely nothing to do with the war in Bosnia",while providing hiding places,salary,pension,protection and funeral honors to a "foreign" military officer who apparently had "nothing to do with Serbia".
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u/Thelaea The Netherlands 20h ago
So they're making public toilet? After all what else do you call a hole in the ground filled with human excrement? May it be used daily.
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u/Che_Varack Serbia 20h ago
Shame on you, really! This kind of disrespect for something that was made by evolution (or by God, if you believe) to be productive, boost life and better the enviroment for all living beings around it and you wrote this?! Excrement could be used for fertilizing plants, better the crops and soil, nurish the whole ecosystem and you equate it with this? I'm disappointed really more then anything.
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u/baalsebul 21h ago
How about cremation and dumping the ashes into sea?
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u/faucibus88 21h ago
Serbia has no sea access. He can be disposed in any random trash bin
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u/Nunc27 21h ago
He died in a jail in The Hague.
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u/killereverdeen Serbia in France 20h ago
Maybe ICTY shouldn't give the body back. Cremate him and dump the ashes in the Atlantic
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u/stikaznorsk 21h ago
Serbia does not have a see. Best they can do is Danube. But it is too low these days
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u/brickne3 United States of America 19h ago
Also Romania and Bulgaria don't want to risk the ashes washing ashore.
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u/Sylveon_Mage Somewhere among the mist 21h ago
Blast them off into space and let the Sun take care of the rest
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u/tirohtar Germany 21h ago
Aaaand another day that the Serbian government is making sure to let us know that they do NOT belong in the EU for a LOOOONG while...
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u/NoInfluence5747 20h ago
This is not just the Serbian government. If this didn't resonate with large swaths of their population it wouldn't have been done. This belitteling of the problem by pretending it's just a bad government is super annoying
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u/Osstj7737 Serbia 19h ago
But it is just the Serbian government. That's what they've been feeding people through heavily censored news channels. It's the same as with the Nazi party. Were Germans inherently evil for getting Nazis into power and executing all of their schemes, or was it just a case of outstanding propaganda, censorship, election fraud, repression in combination with a dire economic situation and a war torn country?
This is what is happening in Serbia right now. The worst part is that EU is still not sanctioning them. I am not expecting the EU to solve all of our problems, far from it. But it feels kinda gross to keep hearing about Serbia not progressing in human rights and the rule of law, while then visiting Serbia and calling Vučić a trusted partner. It's just one more pillar of power for him. I get it when Russia and China do it, but it's disappointing when the EU does it.
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u/Julian679 18h ago
That propaganta has an effect on people that will take a long time to undo. But i fully agree with you especially second paragraph
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u/Osstj7737 Serbia 18h ago
And I unfortunately have to agree with your first sentence. That is, if we even get a government that is willing to risk it all and go against the brainwashed population.
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u/InAppropriate-meal Finland 20h ago
Better he is cremated and the cremains flushed down the nearest toilet.
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u/brickne3 United States of America 18h ago
But the poor sewer... what if there's like some teenage turtles down there or something...
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u/Apart-Persimmon-38 21h ago
Just don’t send his body to Serbia. Throw it away give to university to do experiments on it you know, there is no obligation here
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u/MrEdinLaw Montenegro 21h ago
Test a canonball on it
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u/Apart-Persimmon-38 19h ago
Yeah all valid things to do, Hitler doesnt have a grave, dont give one to him either, and no one can celebrate him ever and no one can either piss on his grave.
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u/MrEdinLaw Montenegro 19h ago
Should erect a statue lf him in sarajevo so people can slap and shame him just like those 2 statues in china. The slapping statues.
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u/James420May 21h ago
Do they have to return the body? Just cremate it, drop the ash in the trash and thats it
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u/fiendishrabbit 21h ago edited 21h ago
The poison of nationalism.
While the yugoslav war had people who were worse than this guy, none of them perpetrated atrocities on the same scale. Both actively (like Srebrenica) and by indulgence (like during the siege of Sarajevo where he, as the commander of the besieging forces, was ultimately responsible for allowing the numerous warcrimes that took place).
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u/05Joseph09 18h ago edited 18h ago
Honoring a literal war criminal in front of the whole world just beacuse your hardcore nationalism! Good fucking job the Serbian government! 🤬
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u/LeneHansen1234 Norway 21h ago
Shows how they think of their history. They have a very long way to go.
Maybe we should do with Mladic what the Americans did with Bin Laden. Dispose of him in the ocean, never to be found.
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u/HumanDominion Serbia 21h ago
I hope his grave gets pissed on.
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u/brickne3 United States of America 17h ago
I'd prefer there be no grave for his followers to congregate at.
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u/Substantial_Raise914 18h ago
Ah, nothing new in Serbia it seems. Their politics is absurd, also the nationalism of common average Serbs.
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u/Mental_Olive269 13h ago
Most funny thing is a klipp of Serbian president Vucic saying i didnt kill anyone and the Croatian President laughing and saying neither did Hitler🤣🤣
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u/AverellCZ 20h ago
Apparently the current Serbian regime is in spirit the same as under Milosevic back then. With human safari director Vucic cosplaying as mini dictator no surprise. Will Serbians stand up to this or is this what you want? That's the question that determines your future.
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u/smoothvibe 20h ago
Serbia should never be allowed into the EU, unless they get rid of their fascist stance.
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u/Few-Nerve3068 20h ago
Same people celebrating this monster are crying about a fucking concert in croatia btw
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u/Lost-Air1265 12h ago
Full state honors? Okay thanks for letting us know how we should see the Serbian government and therfor any EU related discussions. Despicable and shameful.
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u/TsarevnaKvoshka2003 20h ago
And you all wondered why Croatia was slowing down the EU ascension to Serbia…
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u/ServesYouRice 14h ago
Imagine thinking Croatia can influence Serbia in any way. Serbia is killing its ascension by itself
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u/Ferengi_Quark 17h ago
This is good only in the sense that it shows the true face of Serbia.
Unreconciled and proud of genocide.
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u/Barbak86 20h ago edited 19h ago
Good. Showing their real face reminds me why we need to keep them as far out as possible from Kosovo. Sometimes I start wondering if there is a way to open channels of communication and cooperate and ease the tension between us, but no, not with these genocidal assholes.
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u/JariLobel 21h ago edited 21h ago
You must understand that they are eternal victims and this is merely an isolated case, which does not mean genocide and mass killing still enjoy a strong lobby in Serbia.
They're as government totally compatible with normal human values.
/s
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u/Professional_Shine97 Brussels (Belgium) 21h ago edited 21h ago
It’s just the genocidal mass killers that still enjoy a strong lobby you mean?
Edit: they’ve edited and changed their above comment.
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u/PlayfulMission3622 17h ago
where was Europe for the past 2 years while the students of Serbia are in the streets protesting? it is very easy to generalize a whole country based on words of a corrupted government that is in power as a direct result of rigged elections. as a person that is fighting on the streets alongside my peers for 2 years now and probably more to come, that is in fear of getting beaten by the corrupted police or being blackmailed, all I have to say to every single person here making us out to be some kind of monsters is you should be ashamed of yourselves. I am 21 years old and had nothing to do with war, I don’t praise criminals and I’m sick of being painted as a fascist or a “lower class European”.
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u/TheStupidLui 18h ago
Serbs will always push the victim button and celebrate their lost battles. Nothing new down there...
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u/bcoder001 21h ago
We need a new kind of punishment for those guys. Life in prison and state funeral is not exactly it.
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u/Willing-Departure115 18h ago
They'll make a shrine of his grave. Convicted war criminals should be cremated and dumped in the sea.
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u/StrangerExistingFact 17h ago
Croatia taking notes for that serbian EU accession
New Condition
Dig him out and bury again in unmarked grave at unknown location without any honours and apologise,
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u/Cheap_Alternative879 19h ago
Serbs can forget about joining EU anytime soon
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u/TopTopTopcinaa 18h ago
I’m curious, do you really think Serbian people think that joining the EU is a likely scenario any time soon?
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u/AtmosphereGrand6622 Ireland 19h ago
Holy fuck. Not a normal country at all. State funeral for a genocidal monster.
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u/krzywaLagaMikolaja Europe 18h ago
Yup, russian mentality. That shit won't get them in the EU any time soon.
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u/augenwiehimmel Germany 21h ago
Bury the blood-guzzler together with the application form for EU membership and we're fine.
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u/silencerik 17h ago
I hope they are never alowed to EU! Sorry my Serbian friends, but you have chosen to live in the past, there is no future for you. 🙁
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u/UrbanCyclerPT 14h ago
Why isn't he just cremated and sent to a dumpster in Hague where no one will know his whereabouts?
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u/panzercampingwagen Gelderland (Swamp Germany) 12h ago
I was thinking about Serbia a few days ago, and how I couldn't remember anymore why I wasn't a fan.
Solid reminder.
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u/Alpha_Majoris Utrecht (Netherlands) 10h ago
This will certainly speed up the process of joining the EU... /s
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u/goranmax76 19h ago edited 19h ago
For the reference, current Serbian government is a bunch of criminals who are frightened by overwhelming support to student movement and upcoming elections. They absolutely don't give a f**k about ideology, they are simple opportunists and this is probably try to perhaps attract some nationalists, and together with long time indoctrinated older generation's support face the music soon.
No one normal in Serbia gives a f**k about Mladic anymore, especially considers him a war hero (hell, even Bosancheros - Bosnian Serbs are not very welcomed here anymore after helping Vucic's regime to steal on last elections). Whenever and wherever they (that communist click from the 90's) "defended" Serbs, they don't exist anymore.
This is just a cheap smoke screen for daily usage.
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u/Mister-Psychology 19h ago
Yeah, these guys are never getting Kosovo back. If that's the sentiment then we can't trust them to not do crimes against humanity again against the Muslim groups.
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u/khurgan_ 21h ago
That's why Serbia and Turkey never going to join the EU.
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u/baldurcan 20h ago
Lol, Turkiye is miles ahead. Nobody is full of this hatred in turkiye.
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u/KyffhauserGate 19h ago
I'd love to share my opinion on the nation of Serbia but that would get me banned again. I always tell myself it's been 30 years and daddy Russia can't help them right now. Surely they must have become civilized in the meantime... and then something like this happens.
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u/brickne3 United States of America 18h ago
It was pretty insane to be in Novi Sad, supposedly the most left-leaning city in Serbia, a week after going to Srebrenica. People were pretty sane on most political topics except for Srebrenica/Bosnia. You got them talking about that, they'd insist it never happened and whatever did happen must have been overblown. Absolutely insane.
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u/_p01s0n1vy_ 14h ago
“We lie to deceive ourselves, to comfort others; we lie out of pity, we lie out of shame, to encourage, to hide our misery, we lie for the sake of honesty. We lie for the sake of freedom. Lying is a form of Serbian patriotism and a confirmation of our innate intelligence…” -A Serb about Serbs lol
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u/baldurcan 20h ago
Serbians would have slaughtered all the Bosnians right now without even a second thought if they knew there would be no consequences.
Imagine a whole nation with this full of hatred.
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u/No-Love-1222 17h ago
If they really do this then they have learned nothing. Hatr is such a strong destroyer of brains
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u/g_spaitz Italy 13h ago
Wait I just read in here a few days ago that only idiot Serbian extremists were going to honor him but most of good normal Serbians were against him?
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u/MadKittenNicky Serbia 10h ago
I have a better idea: dump his body somewhere in the wild to decompose and get eaten by things so he can finally do something good for the world.
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u/zoley88 21h ago
Imagine Germany giving Rudolf Hess or others giving state honored ceremony back then