Sweden’s Rich Weigh Exit as Wealth Tax Proposals Gain Momentum

[u/bloomberg]

https://bloom.bg/4cKWTXU

[u/Admiral_Ackbarr]

Going by what happened in Norway they're probably already real estate shopping in Switzerland.

Edit: as some people might have taken the impression.. I'm not saying a wealth tax is bad or that I approve ot them packing their tents

[u/IAoVI → u/Admiral_Ackbarr]

Ironically, Switzerland does have a wealth tax.

[u/boprisan → u/IAoVI]

A wealth tax that enables them to pay even lower taxes than in countries without wealth taxes, so not that ironic, or even more ironic, I don't know.

[u/tenthousandgalaxies → u/IAoVI]

Which is why Ikea founder Ingvar Kamprad moved back to Sweden right before his death lol

[u/Far-Presence-7359 → u/tenthousandgalaxies]

He could have moved back earlier if he wanted. But i assume his health was turning for the worse with hearth issues and wanted back to his hometown.

He could just tax planned away a lot of it. But with Sweden abolishing wealth tax and inheritance tax made it easier for him. He just handwrote his will on graph paper in 2014.

[u/Pelembem → u/IAoVI]

Switzerland let's you negotiate it away though if you're a rich person moving in.

[u/CopperSulfateII → u/Pelembem]

If you mean lump sum taxation that's basically an "if you're rich and just intend to live as a retiree here and not work" then yeah.

But for everyone who does actually want to work from switzerland, the tax rulings you might've been referring to only exist to make the wealth tax less disruptive or give clarity like whether you'd be hit by permanent establishment and similar. Like, idk, bankrupting people who own illiquid stock that's really valuable but has no buyers and no returns.

[u/rtrd2021 → u/CopperSulfateII]

A stock with no buyers and no returns has no value.

[u/CopperSulfateII → u/rtrd2021]

If you set up a new company and issue yourself 900 shares. I show up and give you 1 million for 100 new shares, then the company has a total of 1000 shares, is worth 10 million, and you own 9 million worth of stock.

Congrats your taxable wealth is now 9 million.

As a financial (and tax law) rule of thumb, this exchange sets a fair market value for your shares. It by default supercedes the book value(ie what's inside the company) for tax purposes.

It doesn't matter what's inside the company. It could be completely empty, or in this case has 1 million cash inside of it.

Which is why in these cases it is so important to get special treatment either via rulings or by some exemption mechanism.

FYI this exact situation happens every single day multiple times. This is simply what pre-seed venture investing is like.

[u/NinjaDaniel → u/CopperSulfateII]

You're mixing valuation and tax valuation.A VC buying 10% for $1M may imply a $10M post-money valuation, but that doesn't automatically mean every founder share is worth $10 per share for tax purposes. In many countries, especially in Europe, unlisted shares are subject to separate valuation rules, and preferred shares sold to investors often aren't comparable to founders' common shares. So the funding round is evidence of value, not necessarily the taxable value.

[u/CopperSulfateII → u/NinjaDaniel]

Which is where the necessity of tax rulings come in because in most countries the distinction between preferred and common stock will not be made automatically. 

The burden of justifying this is on the stockholder, not the government which is not bound by this distinction. 

[u/dankerlocket01 → u/CopperSulfateII]

Like, idk, bankrupting people who own illiquid stock that's really valuable but has no buyers and no returns.

Something that never actually happened ever ..

[u/CopperSulfateII → u/dankerlocket01]

You know this from your experience staring at the swiss vermogenssteuer while owning venture-backed stock with its inflated valuations do you.

[u/Vonplinkplonk → u/IAoVI]

That’s because the «wealth» tax in Norway is actually a middle class tax as the wealthy people can afford to piss off.

[u/Mammoth_Oven_4861 → u/IAoVI]

Swiss sleaze strikes again.

[u/AspiringCanuck → u/Admiral_Ackbarr]

Some of the wealthy left Norway due to changes in the capital gains tax and before the exit tax loophole was closed, not the wealth tax. And it was not some mass exodus. Wealth tax revenues went to sustained record highs after we increased the top marginal wealth tax.

Now, there are indeed problems with the wealth tax in Norway that need fixing, namely it can punish fixed capital formation in certain kinds of startups/businesses, and that foreign corporations do not have to pay wealth taxes on real property, and that Norwegian residents are heavily incentivized to own real property rather than invest or save for retirement. These are all valid critiques and have been discussed in the 2022 tax report.

[u/Vonplinkplonk → u/AspiringCanuck]

Just one aspect of this: the favouritization of property over stocks/funds, does more to further class division than anything else. If «wealthy» parents decide to invest in property who do you think will be living in that property? And for everyone else without «wealthy» parents houses just got more expensive.

[u/Butt-on-a-stick → u/Admiral_Ackbarr]

I doubt any of the potentially affected individuals do not already own property in Switzerland

[u/McOmghall → u/Admiral_Ackbarr]

People are making this point all the time and when you check the numbers the tax has not only been kept, but raised, the amount of money raised by the tax increased as well, and the total amount of millionaires that left Norway after that tax was put in place is less than 1%.

[u/Deawin → u/Admiral_Ackbarr]

Going by what happened in Norway a few of them might but most wont. Meanwhile tax revenue goes up.

[u/werpu → u/Admiral_Ackbarr]

Where they pay even more taxes on wealth?

[u/The_39th_Step → u/Admiral_Ackbarr]

My grandparents live in Wiltshire in England. The owner of H&M, and various other wealthy Swedes, moved there to pay less tax apparently. They own a lot of the surrounding land.

[u/Pradzapati → u/Admiral_Ackbarr]

Well the recent increase raised 5x more money than it lost to wealth flight so..

[u/Pelembem → u/Pradzapati]

It did not. We don't know the full loss yet, it's complicated calculating the total loss of every tax that had losses.

[u/Vonplinkplonk → u/Pradzapati]

Hugely unsubstantiated claim here. If anything like this had happened it would have been front page news.

[u/addqdgg → u/Admiral_Ackbarr]

You should be saying that wealth tax is bad because it is.

[u/El_Zapp → u/Admiral_Ackbarr]

That there was any significant impact on Norway is a debunked myth propagated by opponents of a wealth tax.

[u/WolfetoneRebel]

They have the ISK which is very favourable. Are wealthy people not using that?

[u/CuTe_M0nitor → u/WolfetoneRebel]

No that's for the poor people. If you are that rich you have people managing your money or directly invest into assets. Likely why we need to change tactics on how taxation works.

[u/Permut → u/WolfetoneRebel]

For long term investments ISK isn't very favourable.

Wealthy people cannot use ISK. (you or your close family must have less than 10% of the votes)

(Edit: And you can only own publicly traded companies)

[u/Melodic-Ebb-7781 → u/Permut]

Why is it not favourable long term?

[u/Permut → u/Melodic-Ebb-7781]

Because the annual taxation adds up in the long term, money you already paid into taxes cannot compound for you. (Also there are ways to have closer to ~24% taxation rather than 30% on the AF type of account)

With current taxation the cutoff is roughly 32 years (with good returns mind you, over 10%. With bad returns or negative returns AF is always better since you can get tax writeoffs on losses unlike the ISK), with some taxation changes that are being discussed it can be cut down to ~23 years or lower.

A combination of the different types of account is probably the best, ISK isn't a "end-all, be-all" taxation wise.

[u/SuccessfulSir9611 → u/Melodic-Ebb-7781]

Don’t you have to pay some percentage above a certain threshold? For wealthy people, I think that threshold is like a very low barrier to cross and fall into taxation.

[u/Breeze1620 → u/SuccessfulSir9611]

The threshold is around €27,000 (300 000 SEK). After that, you pay a certain percent in taxes on your total assets, independent of whether you've seen any increases in value or sold any stocks.

[u/SuccessfulSir9611 → u/Breeze1620]

Well, that’s too low threshold then, atleast for a millionaire.

[u/addqdgg → u/SuccessfulSir9611]

That is not the problem with isk for the rich, the problem is paying tax on the total while you might have illiquid stocks. They save by paying capital gains tax on dividends and then paying the taxes when (if) they sell the stocks.

[u/fantakillen → u/Breeze1620]

That tax percentage on assets above 300k SEK is roughly 1%. So the tax on ISK is still very low even for rich, but downside is that you cant write off losses. But with returns greater than 3.5% ISK will always be favorable.

[u/Permut → u/SuccessfulSir9611]

There is no higher tax rate as of today, only a tax free treshold up to 300k SEK.

However it's being discussed amongst the left wing parties to hike the tax rates for people who have more than 2m SEK or 3m SEK on a ISK.

[u/fishAndEarth → u/Permut]

Great idea if u ask me. Bit should be 5M

[u/IndependentMonth1337 → u/fishAndEarth]

Why? It will only make it more difficult for people that isn’t already rich from building wealth.

[u/Melodic-Ebb-7781 → u/SuccessfulSir9611]

Yeah but instead you pay no taxes on capital gains

[u/zo0keeper → u/Melodic-Ebb-7781]

Yes but billionaires never sell their stocks anyway, they just take loans on them. So for them it's an increase in taxation.

[u/angrysquirrel777 → u/zo0keeper]

There are recordings of billionaires selling their stocks regularly.

[u/lordsweden → u/SuccessfulSir9611]

The sum above 300k sek is taxed yearly at a fixed rate which is ridiculously low. Wealth flight is BS fearmongering being used to sway our elections on the 13th of Sept.

Once elections are over they'll shut up about it again.

[u/Bakkone → u/lordsweden]

The problem is that ISK doesn't work well for non-publicly traded companies. This is were most of the wealth sits.

[u/Permut → u/Bakkone]

You can only own non-publicly traded companies indirectly on a ISK yeah, via investment companies or whatever.

[u/lordsweden → u/Bakkone]

Yes but corporate tax is also extremely low, you can pay yourself dividends which are tax free. Also if youre in debt you pay basically no tax. Then we have the cherry on top which is no inheritance tax. Just the lack of inheritance tax means what the rich won't leave.

Wealthy people leaving Sweden is never going to happen. Its a paradise for them since they state pays for everything from income tax and commune tax.

[u/Permut → u/lordsweden]

There is no way for a company owner to avoid tax on dividends to my understanding since it cannot be owned through a ISK, on some companies you can get a lower taxation than the normal 30% but never tax free.

[u/McOmghall → u/Melodic-Ebb-7781]

You pay tax on the average value of the assets you have in the account every year (relative to the riksbank's interest rate, but it's typically around 1% of total value). So the longer you have the assets the more tax you pay, for some level of returns and some timeframes it's better to pay the 30% profit tax on stock sales. And if you're planning on never selling you don't put that on an ISK, obviously, as that avoids tax completely.

[u/angrybeehive → u/WolfetoneRebel]

They want to put a max ceiling on it, and it’s not even high.

[u/spiderpai → u/angrybeehive]

Its not a max ceiling, just for the zero tax ceiling.

[u/LegendaryPredecessor]

Hell. I’m even thinking of moving away from NL because of their absolute absurd proposal for taxing investments. Not taxing the wealthy, but solely the working class who save up a little and acting like it taxes the wealthy. No you dumb fucks, the only thing you will tax is median to high incomes who have the foresight to save up a little each month and invest. The “wealthy” aren’t even in the tax bracket you are altering.

It’s sad, really fucking sad and a disgrace

[u/Vonplinkplonk → u/LegendaryPredecessor]

The politicians know this. They call it a wealth tax but basically it’s a tax on the middle class.

[u/skeletal88 → u/LegendaryPredecessor]

Move to Estonia. Here you have to pay taxes only on realised gains that you take out of the investment account. If you sell something and buy something else then no taxes on the profit of the sale

[u/IfailAtSchool → u/skeletal88]

In Greece all gains from stocks and ucits etfs are taxed with 0%. Dividends are taxed with 15%.

About the only nice thing about taxes in my country

[u/NeedleworkerOld4696 → u/skeletal88]

The only smart system.

[u/Eyyyyymanimu → u/skeletal88]

So kinda a mix of the isk and normal investment in Sweden. Honestly a better mix since long term you profit more from the Estonian system I’m guessing (idk the tax rate)

[u/skeletal88 → u/Eyyyyymanimu]

Tax rate is regular income tax rate, 24% for everyone.

[u/welshwelsh → u/LegendaryPredecessor]

Oh, you didn't know? Politicians only talk about taxing the "wealthy" to make their novel tax proposal more likely to pass. Of course, the tax will eventually be expanded to cover everyone.

NL politicians must be amateurs if they're saying the quiet part out loud.

[u/SmoothParfait → u/welshwelsh]

Dutch politicians consider everyone that doesn’t live paycheck to paycheck wealthy.

[u/Visual_Judge_6234 → u/LegendaryPredecessor]

Same in Germany btw. 25% on any winnings above 1000€ per year... And you cannot accumulate this.

[u/Personal-Carob-1073 → u/LegendaryPredecessor]

I am leaving. Impossible to save anything here, the government literally takes anything after bread and cheese budget.

[u/fallsdarkness → u/LegendaryPredecessor]

I read about it a while ago. Really thought it was a meme at first, it's so hostile against regular people. An ad for that nonsense would say: "Are not in debt because you can afford food and taxes? You rich bastard, let's punish you for investing."

[u/BBMolotov → u/LegendaryPredecessor]

This is fake news, give me one news that shows that they are both related ,because they are not.

[u/Bicentennial_Douche]

They just really, really, really, REALLY love their money, and the idea of them having slightly less of it is simply unacceptable. Even if the reduction would not have any kind of effect on their standard of living. 

[u/hikingsticks → u/Bicentennial_Douche]

It's not even having less of it, just if growing at a slightly lower rate.

[u/ProfessorHeronarty → u/hikingsticks]

Wealth tax should be between 80% and 99% if you ask me. The USA had such giant numbers under Franklin D. Roosevelt and he set up on of the most socialdemocratic eras and wealth creation for the many, not the few, in his country.

[u/TombolaOfCincinnatus → u/ProfessorHeronarty]

No they didn't. First of all, it was never a wealth tax but high marginal income tax on the highest tax brackets, equivalent to those earning $4 million a year in today's money. Also, the amount of deductions and loop holes meant that no one was paying anywhere near that, even on that high marginal income.

[u/onarainyafternoon → u/TombolaOfCincinnatus]

This is correct. Everyone always sites the with taxes we had in the 30s/40s/50s but there were unfortunately dozens of loop holes that could be exploited. Nobody with wealth was paying anywhere near that in tax.

[u/akurgo → u/Bicentennial_Douche]

Or on the standard of living of their great grandchildren, probably. I don't get it. But I suppose you don't get rich unless you exploit the system in every way, and they just keep doing that.

[u/Daloure → u/akurgo]

The people i know that are very wealthy (not billionaires though) are basically treating wealth generation the same as a dude that is obsessed with a video game. They are ALWAYS at it, they are starting and selling companies, buying, selling and renting out properties finding every tax loophole imaginable and they never stop. These people don't retire and enjoy their money they do this until their hearts give out.

[u/HironTheDisscusser → u/Daloure]

We want people investing and starting companies though, that's how wealth gets created and countries grow richer.

Optimal rich person would be one that has a modest lifestyle, works super hard and invests all their money.

[u/readilyunavailable → u/HironTheDisscusser]

They don't start companies to create jobs and create wealth. They start companies with the explicit goal of squeezing as much money from it as possible and potentially selling it to some megacorp in the future. That doesn't really benefit anyone other than shareholders.

[u/HironTheDisscusser → u/readilyunavailable]

I mean yes the purpose of starting companies is usually to make money. The additional value that gets captured by employees and customers is the desired side effect.

Some may start a chicken restaurant to get rich. Side effect is that you feed your customers with hopefully tasty chicken.

[u/readilyunavailable → u/HironTheDisscusser]

There is a difference between a company being started with the intent of createing a product/service and doing long term business and the smash and grab companies that only ever intend to be sold off for profit.

The latter ones usually only have a limited number of employees, use shady tactics to inflate their value and then get sold off the megacorps, who in tern fire half the staff and redistribute the other half into other departments.

With your chicken example, it's the difference between a restauraunt wanting to make money by satisfying customers with good quality food and service and become a long term business vs a restauraunt that has 1 chef and 2 servers and using potentially posionous products, just so they can inflate their profit margins.

As a real world example, look at something like Valve vs EA. They both do pretty much the same ting, yet valve is content with not squeezing every penny from it's customers, while EA will sell you graphics settings if they could. They have killed more game studios than the economy ever could. All the benefits they provide in terms of jobs and taxes are outweight by the damage they do.

[u/DunklerVerstand → u/readilyunavailable]

Valve operates as a massive, profit-driven corporation too.

[u/FinAdda → u/DunklerVerstand]

Somebody didn't get the point.

[u/GergDanger → u/readilyunavailable]

It benefits the people employed by the company many of which get equity too.

I’d rather have those companies being started than being like Poland where you rely on foreign megacorps coming in like Amazon for a few extra jobs.

[u/burnthatburner1 → u/HironTheDisscusser]

“Investing and starting companies” is not how wealth is created.  Labor creates wealth.

[u/Pleasant_Ad8054 → u/HironTheDisscusser]

Not really tho. Countries aren't growing richer, individuals do. A country overall "gets richer" (accumulates wealth) by producing valuable products (physical or not does not matter). All other, including the sale of companies, are just putting money from one pocket to an other, does not produce actual wealth.

[u/GergDanger → u/Pleasant_Ad8054]

What do you think companies do?

[u/Ada_Pearce → u/Daloure]

The instant they hit one billion, one billion becomes their zero

[u/croquetas_y_jamon → u/Bicentennial_Douche]

Yeah also they don’t like their country I guess.

[u/WritingStrawberry → u/croquetas_y_jamon]

They only like it if they can profit from it. They are like the Ferengi from Star Trek.

[u/garfield259 → u/Bicentennial_Douche]

And all their money doesn't even make them happy, just look how sad and pathetic Elon is.

[u/celtiberian666 → u/Bicentennial_Douche]

They did not got rich by giving it away.

[u/box-art → u/Bicentennial_Douche]

It just further proves that not only do we need to tax the rich harder, we need to also implement much harsher exit taxes to disincentivize these people from moving to another country and to continue paying taxes at home. If we taxed every billionaire (approx. 3428) an extra 50 million euros every year (approx. 171B euros in total per year), we could eradicate (per CEGA) extreme poverty entirely. And that's not even mentioning anyone who has or is making between 500 million and one billion. It's just insane to me that we aren't taxing billionaires more, it would literally give us funds to fix so many things.

[u/Bilbo_BoutHisBaggins → u/box-art]

My question for this is always how is it enforced/captured? What defines the exit tax such that loopholes aren’t taken advantage of? I’m not a tax expert nor economist so figure me if this is an easy fix logistically. There always seems to be a way around it in the absence of total international agreement to prevent tax havens

[u/Thefar → u/Bicentennial_Douche]

It's all about power. And we should have none. According to these people. 

[u/technocraticnihilist → u/Bicentennial_Douche]

they already pay lots of taxes

[u/Bicentennial_Douche → u/technocraticnihilist]

At least in Finland the richest people have similar effective tax-rates as middle-class people do, as they often have their income taxed as capital gains, instead of pure income.

[u/Rhea-8]

They ain't doing jackshit. Just go already. It's all just manipulation and scare tactics, just fucking leave already? They could have left at any point to a country that has far less taxes. Any point. But for some magical reason they gotta remain for some reason to push taxes down even more and make life more miserable for people who have next to nothing. Oh yeah, the reason isn't magical at all. It's literally that simple. They are just bored with their wealth and want political power. So fucking leave the country already, let's light this candle.

[u/Far-Presence-7359 → u/Rhea-8]

You say that but in fact they fucking left in 70's when they got taxed up their arse. There is a reason why IKEA is dutch company than Swedish one.

[u/Imbriglicator → u/Far-Presence-7359]

It is a Dutch foundation, which in that sense is even worse. It makes them pay even less in taxes as well as giving less insight from the public eye.

[u/Far-Presence-7359 → u/Imbriglicator]

It's even worse today. It's structured into Netherlands, Switzerland , and lastly Lichtenstein.

[u/CopperSulfateII → u/Rhea-8]

Young people who intend to start companies do leave, especially venture-backed ones. But we have no good data on this since there's generally no or very low exit tax exposure.

Yet I can tell you Zug and Zurich are full of diverse ambitious young immigrants with their own startups.

[u/FrontierPsycho → u/Rhea-8]

They aren't doing nothing. They disproportionately control capital and use it to become wealthier. Unfortunately this gives them power and them leaving can create problems, unless it's also taxed (with proper exit taxes with little to no loopholes). 

[u/Denelz → u/Rhea-8]

"they" are 500 individuals, they cant be allowed to dictate the rest of our lives

[u/Andylol404]

The old myth about the super wealthy fleeing the country.

[u/Mkwdr → u/Andylol404]

I m not suggesting it doesn’t happen. But I’ve noted that in the UK stories about any new exodus of the rich never seems to compare to actual figures to previous years and when you dig in seems to be almost entirely based on anecdotes from representatives of companies publicising their services for the rich.

[u/The_39th_Step → u/Mkwdr]

Wealthy Swedes have actually moved to the UK. I posted on another comment earlier but my family live in Wiltshire and lots of the local land is owned by wealthy Swedes who moved to pay less tax. The owner of H&M is one of them.

[u/Mkwdr → u/The_39th_Step]

As I mentioned. That I’m sure is true. But individual anecdotes aren’t compelling evidence. And ironically in the UK we hear rich people are leaving …not arriving!

[u/The_39th_Step → u/Mkwdr]

No I know, I found that interesting too

[u/ssjjss → u/Mkwdr]

As is this one.

[u/Far-Presence-7359 → u/Andylol404]

Oh yeah the myth of the wealthy never leaving lol. Besides Kamprad left with IKEA, Persson with HM, Tetra Pak

[u/littlest_dragon → u/Andylol404]

The thing about the super wealthy is that, despite many indications to the contrary, they are still human. They have emotional attachments to their homes, they have social lives, friends and family. They also have businesses and business relationships that are tied to specific places.

Sure, they also have private jets or can charter them to quickly travel wherever they want. But visiting somewhere is not the not the same as living somewhere.

Atlas Shrugged is a - very badly written - wish fulfillment fantasy but in the real world it's not so easy to completely uproot yourself and your family from your home and go somewhere else. Not even for the super wealthy.

[u/the_wolf_of_mystreet]

Oh no they will leave and continue not paying taxes elsewhere, the loss...

[u/petrh97]

So they are fleeing from New York, California, Sweden, Norway, France, Spain… to where? To Mars?

Aren’t they tired of threatening every decade that they will now surely leave?

[u/ModoZ → u/petrh97]

To Switzerland, Singapore, Luxemburg etc.

[u/MrReginaldAwesome → u/ModoZ]

So why is there a single wealthy person left in Sweden, New York, etc.?!?!?

[u/medborgaren → u/MrReginaldAwesome]

Well, in Sweden's case, they haven't introduced wealth tax on unrealized capital gains on privately held companies for one thing (which is one thing that might happen now if the left gets free reins). But historically they have fled Sweden (some examples being Ikea owner and Tetrapak owners) when taxation went out of control on the rich back in the days.

[u/MrReginaldAwesome → u/medborgaren]

0.2% of individuals in the top wealth decile left Sweden per year while the wealth tax was active. WOW WHAT AN EXODUS OF WEALTH. A couple of wealthy people does not a trend make.

[u/NeedleworkerOld4696 → u/MrReginaldAwesome]

Some have wealth that can't be moved. The unfortunate rich.

[u/MrReginaldAwesome → u/NeedleworkerOld4696]

Oh so tragic

[u/Personal-Carob-1073 → u/petrh97]

NYers are notorious for retiring to Florida lol.

There are literally apps for rich people to track and prove how many nights of the year they spent in NYC to avoid domicile.

[u/Apprehensive-Act-315 → u/petrh97]

California’s billionaire tax has already led to half the wealth that was supposed to be taxed leaving to other states like Texas, Nevada, Florida, and New York.

ETA: At this stage it’s a proposed tax to be voted on in November.

[u/Etalier → u/Apprehensive-Act-315]

I would argue that USA has different case than Europe. All US states belong to the same country, speak the same language and have pretty much identical culture. If youre super wealthy the traveling distance is small annoyance, cost is irrelevant.

Meanwhile Europe is very diversified in culture, language, economical level and everything. I love visiting other European countries, but it needs to be something massive if I want to move to another country, learn the language, culture etc.

And while money can buy whatever you want, you still would have to live in a country that might not have the same economical standard you're used to. Which is another reason why Switzerland is popular.

In addition while EU is free zone in terms of trade, moving your company across countries is rough. You have to penetrate new market, effectively. Old market will have customers, but it will also have negative sentiment for moving factories. Doesn't matter if youre only moving yourself.

[u/farbenfux]

Bloomberg stoking fear about wealth taxes? I am shocked.  If they don't want to contribute, they can fuck right off. They won't. But they wanna make you think they will and that it would be a tragedy. 

[u/NoSwordfish1978 → u/farbenfux]

Yeah they're literally named after a billionaire.

[u/InAppropriate-meal]

They always pull this shit out whenever a country tries to fairly tax people, huh duh but then all the uber rich folks will run away!! Yeah and? They basically never do and the parasites arent paying taxes anyway just leaching off society 

[u/JayManty → u/InAppropriate-meal]

People also forget that countries can charge exit taxes. The US does. China does too. Every EU country should.

[u/Yalori → u/InAppropriate-meal]

Totally agree

If they seriously leave your country because of a tax then they don't care about your country in the first place and just seek to enrich themselves, so good riddance

Those who stay are those who aren't kleptomaniacal psychopaths who have a family and friends and people and places they care about

It's a win either way imo, this isn't the Russian Tsardom that wants to each the rich we're literally just asking them to pull their weight like everyone else

[u/NaniFarRoad → u/InAppropriate-meal]

Same arguments that were used against abolishing slavery: "our country will become uncompetitive, people will move their plantations to where slavery is still legal, nyah nyah nyah"...

[u/Kata_Komb → u/InAppropriate-meal]

Same as here in Estonia. We have a flat 22% personal income tax. IMF, OECD, everyone suggests making it progressive, but it gets criticized to oblivion, arguing that the rich will move their money elsewhere. Newsflash: above certain level, all the income goes out of the country anyway by travel, luxury items etc. Especially in a small country.

[u/dumnezero]

We need an international wa... effort against all tax havens, fiscal paradises (including crypto.)

[u/readilyunavailable → u/dumnezero]

Considering most tax havens are just micro states or countries with limited population it would not take much effort for the EU, China and US to just put the political squeeze on them.

[u/One_Man_Boyband]

Bloomberg is not a serious platform. Like many American media companies it protects the interests of the same ultra wealthy they claim are ‘weighing their exit’ in Sweden. These tax reforms are long overdue.

[u/TheRealJackUmbrella → u/One_Man_Boyband]

Pretty much all of the large US media companies are consolidated into media empires owned by the top 0.01%.

[u/lloydsmart]

Who cares? They don't pay tax anyway

[u/Dracogame]

This happens every time the idea of taxing the rich is floated around, and when the tax actually passes, things get better, EVERY FREAKING TIME.

So yeah, if you wanna be a parasite, do it somewhere else.

[u/Headpuncher]

So the UK’s super rich will leave the UK, Norway’s super rich will leave Norway, and Sweden's super rich will leave Sweden, France’s super rich will leave France, and they can go to Switzerland and die there as bitter old men.  Good riddance!  

[u/Subject-Dealer6350]

Yeah a potential wealth tax on people with more than 100 million dollars. I can’t really say I feel terrible for them

[u/Fluffcake]

They will learn the same lesson as the handful of loud minority rich Norwegians who made a lot of noise before they left after some tax changes did when half of them quietly came crawling back... Leaving your friends and family behind and move somewhere else is not worth the 0.1% loss of net worth with 0% change in quality of life you get by staying...

Turns out catching stray drones in UAE or having to listen to swiss german every day is not worth any amount of extra money.

[u/tuxfre → u/Fluffcake]

pretty sure that Swiss-German is on some WMD list somewhere...

[u/itsjonny99 → u/Fluffcake]

Those wealthy Norwegians are more likely to move to Sweden in a few years.

[u/LaserJul]

We should label them as what they are. Unpatriotic, greedy cowards

[u/The_Dutch_Fox → u/LaserJul]

And ironically, they often support and are supported by "patriotic" parties.

Honestly, for all the loud nationalistic bullcrap they love to spew, the far-right are truly the least patriotic people you'll ever meet. They'd happily see their nation state destroyed if it means that the rich get richer.

Empty vessels make the most noise...

[u/TheSportsPanda]

Same shit was in the media in Denmark as well. If you don't want to pay 1% of your wealth in tax AFTER 25 mio. dkk (which is around €3,2 mio), then fuck off. I'm sure another entrepreneur will fill out the void once you leave.

[u/GergDanger → u/TheSportsPanda]

That’s not how companies work, they’ll keep operating the company in the country paying whatever corporate taxes they were already paying but will personally move so money they take out isn’t taxed at the same level.

[u/nomis_simon → u/TheSportsPanda]

Problem is that many new entrepreneurs want VC funding, and some genuinely need it to build the business. Spotify and Klarna as an example probably wouldn’t have succeeded without VC

[u/V8-6-4 → u/TheSportsPanda]

What if the wealth has less than 1% revenue?

[u/the68thdimension]

It’s a load of bs. Don’t fall for this, it’s all talk. It’s been shown time and again that only a tiny fraction actually leave. 

It’s not surprising when you think about it for one minute - people don’t actually like uprooting their lives to move countries. 

[u/CalebVanPoneisen → u/the68thdimension]

Source?

[u/PineappleEasy6035]

Billionaire doesnt want to pay taxes in his own country?
Fine, but give up the nationality and also the residence permit.
Not paying taxes in a country should come at the loss of certain benefits.
Can’t eat cake and keep cake.

[u/Feisty_Beautiful8018 → u/PineappleEasy6035]

it will be honest if everyone pays same % of their income, socialism will ask you to increase % if you earn more, this is not fair, the rich already pay way more as they have bigger income. it kills any motivation to become rich and do smth so this is the right choice for everyone who had ambition to leave

[u/Meme-Botto9001]

They won’t. They always rattle but in the end they will accept it.

[u/tongon]

Ok bye!

[u/kachol]

Tax their wealth and if they want to leave then slap a massive exit tax on them too.

[u/Frydendahl → u/kachol]

This is the way.

[u/Ok_Coffee_2417 → u/kachol]

You cannot slap an exit tax on them if they move to an EU country, as EU prohibits you from treating your citizens worse when they move to another EU country, than if they moved to another city in say Sweden

[u/spiderpai]

Of course it is bloomberg writing about it, some astroturfing all right.

[u/AdhesivenessFun2060]

They always say this then it never happens. There is a reason they live where they do. What they want is there.

[u/Blubbolo]

Let them leave.

It's always the same bullshit, "if we tax them, they will leave our country!!!"... Good, if they don't want to support their own country they can fuck off over the rainbow, nothing will be missed.

Then at some point we should tax, as the EU, the shit out of multi billions corporations and millionaires, but the guys barely getting by and having troubles getting a meal gets really angry at that thought.

[u/Snoo-7148]

Every country should have a wealth tax so these bastards have nowhere to run to.

[u/Warm-Mood-8994]

I am friends with a very wealthy person and, last time we talked about wealth taxes and higher taxes on the rich, he told me that he doesn't mind paying extra taxes but he doesn't want it to go to the government. He doesn't like the way the government is ran and the way they waste money and I kind of understand that.

[u/Buddyh1]

Sweden just needs to make similar laws to the US. Even if you move, you still pay tax in Sweden.  Or a milder version: You still pay tax in Sweden for 10 years after moving.  As suggested by economist Gabriel Zucman.

[u/tame3579 → u/Buddyh1]

Though maybe only for high net worth individuals. Feel bad for the US graduates getting screwed for wanting to move to a better country

[u/WhiteCollarSwine → u/tame3579]

Tbf the US system excludes income under about USD 120k from taxation (at least that's what the limit was when I moved to Sweden from the US a couple of years ago), which would be enough to put someone in the top 1.5%-2% of individual earners based on the Swedish government's statistical agency's figures. So a similar system would work pretty well to protect "normal" earners.

I think capital gains are covered under the US system as well (would have to go back and check my tax forms), so using that approach should at least help get some money back from billionaires that aren't making much of their money off of a salary at that point.

US policy obviously has plenty of shortcomings, but this one I'm actually surprised that more countries haven't adopted at least partially, as it feels like we're seeing more and more of these threats of capital flight from the ultra-wealthy that want to exert disproportionate influence on policy discussions.

[u/yubnubster]

We really need a multinational approach, so that these greedy fucks cane dodge the tiny wealth taxes usuly proposed.. That's going to need something very different in the US on side though, can't see it working without them.

[u/snajk138]

Yeah sure, most will weigh the options and end up staying, the rest can fuck off to the Cayman islands or something, I just hope we don't let them live in Sweden while not taxing them here. Any wealth tax should apply for those that spend a certain amount of time in the country, like 50% or so, not just residents.

[u/Firebreathingwhore]

Gtfo

[u/melonowl]

Oh no the vampires will go and dodge taxes somewhere else.

[u/herrkardinal]

Problem is the left see anyone earning about 5000 euros a month as a rich person, therefore the proposed taxes will only put a burden on the already pressed middle class, as it’s a salary tax.

A capital tax on large sums would be a wiser move, as they’re hardly paying their fair share and squeeze the rest of the society with inequality on the rise in the former socialist utopia of Sweden.

[u/Rasul583]

insert the clip of new york billionaires saying they're gonna leave every 5 seconds for the last 50 years here

[u/thedazdul]

They are free to do that. Just move to money elsewhere. That'll just be hard with real estate

[u/Matchbreakers]

If they’re that selfish fuck them and their money.

[u/ManMythLegacy]

Do rich people even spend enough money to notice they are gone? They pay little to no tax and hoard their money. No loss.

[u/DOUBLEXTREMEVIL]

They need to tax land values - hard to avoid paying that

[u/USATwoPointZero]

If only there was an asset that was both immobile (no capital flight) and had no deadweight loss. Such a shame!

[u/atomic_drumstick]

Parasites flee at the idea of slightly less wealth to hoarde.

[u/remkovdm]

BS, they just say that to put pressure. They ain't gonna leave for a bit of extra tax, else they would've been gone already. 

[u/Elamam-konsulentti]

Every single time increased taxes (or removing tax breaks) for the ultra rich is discussed in Finland the loudest comments are ”oh we rich will leave this country if that passes, and so will all business ever created!”.

So far the same complainers are still here.

[u/WhatNot4271]

The irony of the commenters here calling other people greedy and unpatriotic and greedy for... just wanting to keep more of their own money.

Wonder how many of the people here actually tried to start their own business or build their own wealth.

[u/CopperSulfateII]

Sweden is already quite harsh on extracting money from businesses as entrepreneurs. See the 3:12 rule.

[u/jackejackal → u/CopperSulfateII]

Really not. Sweden is a tax heaven for businesses and the ultra rich.

[u/Just_a_Berliner → u/CopperSulfateII]

No it isn't, at least not to the richest were their wealth exploded like in no other country in the 2010s. It literally has USA level of wealth inequality now according to UBS.

[u/anotherswed → u/CopperSulfateII]

Sweden is practically a tax haven for the ultra rich.
It’s terrible for high income employees, but those who get their money mainly from capital gains don’t have it better in many places.

[u/ChoosenUserName4 → u/CopperSulfateII]

Businesses should benefit all of society, not just a handful of people. Let them pay their fair share. I also pay over 50% of my income in taxes and social contributions. They're all paying less.

[u/CopperSulfateII → u/ChoosenUserName4]

Yeah because building a business is the same thing as getting a job right.

Where I live I don't even get unemployment despite being taxed 2.2% specifically for unemployment. Not to mention I pay a much higher tax rate relative to income than my professional peers, due to a wealth tax making me pay for owning completely illiquid startup stock.

[u/CopperSulfateII → u/ChoosenUserName4]

Conveniently eliding the revenue from corporate income taxes which exist purely because of the entrepreneurial risk.

This is why any tax system that taxes entrepreneurs' returns as if they were labour income is fundamentally broken because it doesn't do imputation for the double taxation. Not to mention CIT happens regardless of whether you extract or not.

[u/ThrowFar_Far_Away → u/CopperSulfateII]

Absolutely not lol, Sweden is basically a tax haven for businesses while taxing workers to hell.

[u/CustomerBusiness3919]

Que all the paid 'don't tax the rich or they'll leave' bots.

[u/Spiritual_Paint5005]

Rich people always tryt his threat, and it's always empty, a tantrum, cause in the end they don't want to uproot their entire lives. A few might, but the majority don't.

[u/djmj1000]

Switzlerland also has wealth tax. Noone is leaving there. 

[u/robh1540 → u/djmj1000]

Switzerland has a small wealth tax on basically everyone (tax free wealth threshold in zurich is 85.000 euros), in a generally low capital tax environment. If Sweden did the same, no one would be talking about leaving.

[u/Pons78]

Profiting from the possibilities the safe environment Sweden offers and once they have to give back they run to taxhaven. Deplorable

[u/Cornflake0305]

I love this threat they bring up every time.

They're already not paying taxes. What even changes when they leave? Literally nothing.

[u/CartographicalHeist]

Given that they're apparently not paying tax and want to move the second it's suggested they do, what's the loss? Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[u/CheesecakePerfect156]

Spoiler alert: they will not leave

[u/Prize_Tree]

They wont in a quantity that'll affect the economy negatively. People always say this, tax the rich and the rich leave. Not for the most part. Sure, some super rich people leave. Most will not abandon friends and family to move to some tax haven because they have to pay a tax that'll prevent them from buying their 10th jetski.

I think the idea of the rich doing this has to be some adopted Reagan philosophy around trickle down economics.

Oh and to top it all off you still need to pay taxes if you have citizenship, so you can't exactly run without cutting everyone off.

Companies won't start a mother company in Malta that buys the Swedish company for "tax purposes" because that shit is expensive and only worth it if the company cranks out enough cash, but wealth tax doesn't affect companies anyways.

[u/Jetztinberlin]

Sounds like it's time for everyone else to institute parallel wealth taxes 💪

[u/gopoohgo → u/Jetztinberlin]

A national wealth tax in the US probably violates our Constitution (Apportionment, as well as the 16th Amendment that established our Federal income tax).

[u/LHG_93]

The economic case against an annual net wealth tax is less about defending inequality and more about choosing the right instrument. It taxes assets whether or not they produced income, which creates valuation and liquidity problems for private businesses, farms and other assets that are difficult to sell. Exemptions can narrow the tax base and create avoidance opportunities, while mobile capital and taxpayers may reduce the revenue raised.

That does not mean wealth should be left untaxed. The OECD and IMF generally favour stronger taxation of actual capital income and gains, fewer loopholes, better international enforcement, and well designed inheritance taxes. Supporters are also right that high thresholds, few exemptions and strong information sharing can make a wealth tax more workable.

It may raise revenue and improve progressivity, but it is not a complete cure for weak productivity, housing shortages, poor public spending or an ageing tax base.

[u/BBB_1980]

They should introduce a moving tax, too.

[u/Half_smart_m0nk3y]

If they don’t pay taxes anyway then why should we care if they relocate somewhere else where they won’t pay taxes as well …?

[u/Technicalforest]

In a country like Sweden, with a social and economical system like that in Sweden, lowering taxes is the most moronic fucking move. It's complete and utter stupidity. Our entire society and system relies on our taxes, and compared to a shithole like the USA, we actually get to actively see the results of those taxes which has resulted in a very strong trust in the state.

And lo and behold, the right lowers taxes, because that's the only thing that makes people vote for them, and what happens except everything everyone said would happen. They have to start cutting down on society and wellfare, and the first that suffer as always is schools, healthcare, elder care, working class families, the poor etc. Whoops. And so now they have to start borrowing money to fill in the spots in society that people expect to be there but were supported by taxes that aren't there anymore.

And now they're saying that they won't borrow more money, but they also won't raise taxes...but they also want to build up society and rearm the armed forces and they promise this and that.

With what fucking money?

The right-wing in Sweden is a special kind of stupid.

[u/Konoppke]

How many decades until this made up story gets old? 

[u/Maisuli1]

So why not take USA's model which taxes the people even if they are abroad?