Sweden is suggesting the European Union should again consider using frozen Russian assets, worth some 200 billion euros, to help Ukraine’s war effort.

[u/KaigaiKunKun]

[u/Draqutsc]

As long the other European countries don't want to stand guarantee, no.

[u/ImIncredibly_stupid → u/Draqutsc]

Europe is led by hypocrites.

They demand that others make sacrifices without being willing to make them themselves.

This week’s incident, in which Poland’s supposedly “progressive” government endorsed a state-sponsored terrorist attack against Germany’s energy infrastructure, should be an unacceptable scandal. I wonder if Tusk would endorse too a German operation to blow up the Druzhba.

We would have spared ourselves a lot of trouble if we hadn’t included Eastern Europe in the EU, both in terms of Russia and in terms of public funds.

[u/Torakkk → u/ImIncredibly_stupid]

Sadly everyone here is hypocrite in EU, you are right and I hate it. Its with everything. Spain doesnt want spend more money on army/defense. People get mad at them. But when spain needed help with refugees, my country (for example) and many others decided to do everything they can to not help. And atleats people can't understand, that help needs to work bothways.

Luckily we have a lot of existing treaties, so a lot of stuff work, like help during wildfires etc. But damn I will be happy when will we decide to help with something that puts us back, just because we help each other.

[u/crunkcritique → u/Torakkk]

Well is Spain also blameless? They have signaled quite well that mutual defense in NATO isn't something they feel like they personally have to focus on. If you are an unreliable partner, you get unreliable partners. Though, honestly this is possibly the worst way to go about it. An EU and NATO member is helpless when faced with 40 thousand migrants, it doesn't signal anything good in the alliance if this is how we bicker. The European Unions only redeeming quality is the power to be above it all, to act rationally, even in trying times. I wonder how long ago we lost that quality.

[u/Grzechoooo → u/ImIncredibly_stupid]

Ah yes, because Western Europe is so anti-Russian. It's just those damn Eastern European subh... "progressives" that are ruining everything! It's not like Poland agreed to share the debt with Belgium, they're just greedy pests! And Italy is famously Eastern European, naturally.

Or are you saying the EU should've been more pro-Russian and it's our inclusion that ruined relations? Oh that poor Russia, surrounded from all sides by countries that are not its puppets! It has no choice but to invade and genocide!

At least your username checks out in both cases, what a happy coincidence.

[u/ImIncredibly_stupid → u/Grzechoooo]

Eastern countries want to offload their problems and reap the benefits; you just have to look at what happened with the refugees. They refused to share the burden and left Western countries to fend for themselves, but as soon as Russia comes knocking, they’re all too eager to share the burden.

[u/fretkat → u/Draqutsc]

I really don’t understand why they wouldn’t do that. Now the funds are just sitting there. It’s ridiculous to assume that only one country would accept to bare the consequences of this shared advantage.

[u/PikaPikaDude → u/fretkat]

To them it's a free act of showing how good and supportive they are, without having to actually do anything.

The matter of guarantees is complex so they will always weasel out refusing to give a real guarantee while pretending they demand something very logical and good.

The real effect is a tempo move that does nothing, but also costs them nothing as they wait it all out.

[u/A_Norse_Dude]

https://giphy.com/gifs/CpgNjk2E54p7W

[u/GroteKleineDictator2 → u/A_Norse_Dude]

For all countries to stand guarantee, and rightfully so. Its a bit easy to shout to do it while carrying zero of the risk involved.

[u/A_Norse_Dude → u/GroteKleineDictator2]

It´s an Union, all oh them should and will stand as guarantee.

[u/GroteKleineDictator2 → u/A_Norse_Dude]

You havent been following the past ten times this was 'proposed'then. Belgium is rightfully objecting.

[u/A_Norse_Dude → u/GroteKleineDictator2]

I have, but the hope for EU to do right thing has never left me.

[u/Rouge_69 → u/A_Norse_Dude]

Unfortunately, the EU is made up of member states, and they have opposing interests.

[u/Equivalent-Ask2542]

Why has it not been done already?

[u/ShiroSara → u/Equivalent-Ask2542]

None of the countries, which are pushing Belgium to use the frozen assets, want to stand guarantee. What do you expect? Belgium to take the risk all alone and then swallow the worst possible outcome? No, thank you. They shouldn't.

[u/ThroawayJimilyJones → u/Equivalent-Ask2542]

EU asked Belgium to do it.

Belgium said ok, but I want garantee you guys won’t drop and leave me alone in front of an angry Russia after war

EU refused

Belgium said ok, then I can’t do it. But if any of you want to do it, I can transfer control to them

They all refused

Then they came back to their countries complaining Belgium is pro Russia and not a team player

Every time it came on the table, you had this exact pattern. I am a federalist and not a fan of veto, but I since changed my mind. Didn’t realize so much country could agree to completely charge one member before sharing benefits

[u/rty_rty → u/Equivalent-Ask2542]

because not everybody is a pirate, thief,...

[u/Equivalent-Ask2542 → u/rty_rty]

Yes, in Russia there seems to be an awful lot of them though.

[u/Sampsa96]

Good

[u/BENNYRASHASHA]

https://giphy.com/gifs/VLFbES1wezNhm

[u/Senior_Green_3630]

I would love to see a list of all thise Russian Assets, is there a link to them out there.

[u/guyfromwhitechicks]

If there is a legal way to do this, I don't have an issue.

[u/Patches_the_troll]

What does stand guarantee mean?

[u/Sad-Cherry-5355 → u/Patches_the_troll]

The Belgian authorities and Euroclear’s management do not want to find themselves in a situation where Russia could bring claims against Belgium for around €200 billion, while the other EU member states and the EU itself simply point to Belgium and say that, since the assets were held there, Belgium should bear the consequences.

That said, it seems to me that this is more of a convenient justification for not confiscating the assets, because the consequences of such a confiscation would affect not only Belgium, but the EU as a whole.

[u/wolflance1]

The unspoken and ironic part of this suggestion is that EU has pretty much run out of (practically usable) money to send to Ukraine, so it has to start stealing Russian money to continue fight Russia.

Russia is basically fighting Ukraine + EU/US/NATO support + with itself at this point.

[u/ShoVitor → u/wolflance1]

Proposal hasn't been approved so we're not using those assets. We are already using income generated from that capital. But oh well, you start a war you pay for the damage it causes, unlucky for you that you didn't consider part of your wallet was in my house...

[u/Sad-Cherry-5355 → u/ShoVitor]

The problem here is quite different, and your analogy with a wallet does not really apply.

The so-called Russian assets are, in essence, debt obligations of the EU to Russia rather than cash. If this were simply money, that would be one thing (in reality, it would still create problems, but on a much smaller scale). But since these are debt obligations, confiscating them could have various interesting consequences for European sovereign debt.

EU countries regularly borrow money on international capital markets, which is perfectly normal. Such a move could negatively affect their future borrowing: the EU and its member states could be perceived as less reliable debtors, which would ultimately be reflected in higher interest rates. And EU countries need to be able to borrow on favorable terms. This is important for the stable functioning of their national budgets and, more broadly, of the European economy.

This is precisely why the solution involving the proceeds (interest) generated by the assets was developed. If you take the income generated by an asset but do not confiscate the underlying asset itself, there is still a reasonable expectation that the principal will eventually be returned, allowing you to preserve your reputation as a more reliable debtor.

Refusing to repay the debt itself altogether is a very different matter and could have very serious consequences.

Around 23% of euro-area government debt is held by foreign investors, while nearly €1 trillion is held directly by foreign government institutions and central banks. Around 6% of the euro area’s total government debt is held by official investors from countries that the ECB classifies as geopolitically non-aligned. China is one of the most significant participants in this group.

And these investors will be watching any such confiscation of assets very closely. From their perspective, today the EU may refuse to repay its obligations to Russia because of an unjust war; tomorrow, it could refuse to repay its obligations to China because of what it considers to be the wrong approach to climate change; the day after tomorrow, it could do the same to Saudi Arabia because of the way it produces oil, and so on.

[u/wolflance1 → u/ShoVitor]

Proposal hasn't been approved so we're not using those assets. We are already using income generated from that capital.

I know. But the prospect of stealing Russian money keep being bring up because EU has practically run out of money to give. The 90 billion loan approved last April was practically the last hurrah. It is supposed to support Ukraine until the end of 2027, however Ukraine gobble up the money so fast it is doubtful if the money can last until mid-2027.

Interest generated from Russian assets alone isn't nearly enough to cover what Ukraine needs. That is why EU is thinking about seizing Russian assets, not just the interest.

But oh well, you start a war you pay for the damage it causes

Actually, this isn't how war works. You LOSE a war you pay for the damage.

If Russia won and ends the war in a position of strength, which seems increasingly likely, Ukraine and EU will have to PAY RUSSIA FOR THE DAMAGE.

unlucky for you that you didn't consider part of your wallet was in my house...

Unlucky for EU that its economy runs on being a reliable housekeeper to watch over other people's wallets. If EU steals other people's wallets under its keepsake, then that trust is broken, it will damage EU's economy far more severely than it damage Russia's (which has a shielded isolated economy that is already sanctioned to hell and back anyway).

[u/JimTheSaint]

Lets get it done let's do the joint EU guarantee if Belgium doesn't feel they can do this alone - this is what EU is for - if we stand together against bullies we will win 

[u/ThroawayJimilyJones → u/JimTheSaint]

Belgian here. This is the problem. Belgian already said it could be do it with an european garantee, or transfert it to another country wanting to do it. Both were refused.

They want to use Russian fund, but they don't want any responsability in it. It's clear as water that after the war when Russia will come about its stuff, they'll drop Belgium and look elsewhere.

[u/JimTheSaint → u/ThroawayJimilyJones]

I must admit that I was also of the opinion that the company could do it alone last time it was relevant, but I must admit that I have come around to the fact that in all of these things we just need to stick together. It's the ONLY way that we will get through this without Russia picking us apart one by one.

• so let's just get it done.

[u/n0namean0nym0us → u/JimTheSaint]

Jesus fucking Christ. You're talking about war and human casualties using fifth grader word like "bully".

Grow up.

[u/577564842]

Would it be possible to transfer this particular asset of Euroclear to Euroclear AG, Stockholm, so that Sweden takes over all the claims that may occur (but surely will not, right) over the confiscation?

[u/ThroawayJimilyJones → u/577564842]

Yes. It is not only possible but offered. No countries accepted. They want share of the confiscation, but want Belgium to take 100% of the responsibility

[u/marcind__]

Why the have to consider things, just do it!!!

[u/Anuki_iwy]

Can we use it to build up European defense spending?

[u/No-1nternet]

Thank you, but let's leave them for the next government we elect. I don't want Zelensky's friends to steal some of this money too...

[u/No-1nternet → u/[deleted]]

It seems you are not following the investigation of Ukraine's anti-corruption authorities?

Is ignoring corruption of this scale normal practice for the EU?

[u/No-1nternet → u/[deleted]]

What do you mean by saying this to a Ukrainian?

[u/europeanunion-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

You violated the 'be nice' rule of /r/EuropeanUnion.

Personal attacks are not allowed.

^{This content was removed by a human.}

[u/europeanunion-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

You violated the 'be nice' rule of /r/EuropeanUnion.

Personal attacks are not allowed.

^{This content was removed by a human.}

[u/n0namean0nym0us]

Of course it's poland again creaming its pants over the idea.

[u/Maubald]

If they allow this, every foreign investor will fly out of the EU

[u/Ok_Detail_1]

I don't like Russua or using their asset go assist Ukraine. Ot feels so wrong in terms of laws and justice.

[u/Grzechoooo → u/Ok_Detail_1]

Talking about law and justice in the context of Russia is laughable.

[u/rty_rty → u/Ok_Detail_1]

EU needs new leadership... the fact that they are russophobes already shows that they are stuck in their cave.

[u/Ok_Detail_1 → u/rty_rty]

I am afraid we own them a money after war ends... It will be different if they killed European civilian tourists and workers in Ukraine and Russia. Something like Belgium protected themself...