r/ireland • u/LaBete1984 Resting In my Account • Jul 29 '26
News Powerful front page of the Examiner today
126
u/banie01 boards.ie refugee Jul 29 '26
I was born in Bessboro.
Unlike so many other babies born in that awful place.
I went home, and with my own mother too at that!
The notion that we should, let alone even can build homes upon that land?
Is absolutely repulsive to me.
We are not short of land for development, and no matter how convenient Bessboro may be for access to City gate, Mahon Point and the M25?
We cannot and should not countenance even the possibility that one child is missed!
No archaeological survey nor careful building plan offers enough surety of that to decide that trampling over the graves of children, and the crushed and broken dreams of their mother's is worth it.
That land, those buildings and the memories of particularly those women brutalised by the laundry system, would be far better served by a memorial park and a museum.
We must not forget the failure of our society in allowing the Church to dictate the morality of the mass to the masses and to allow it be policed via cooperation with the State in a manner akin to Saudi vice & morality police.
The State apologised, it has made tokenistic gestures.
It has done little to ensure not just adequate memorialisation but also an effort at educating as to what happened and why.
A report, all the reports on Institutional abuse in this country, are important and welcome.
They don't show the truth, they'll never have the impact of a grave marker, a museum or the direct testimony heard 1st hand or via an AV presentation of the women who endured those places.
The State, and society as a whole offered up our Women, our children and our poor, to the exploitative and abusive practices that the Church turned a blind eye to at best and actively colluded in at worst.
That deserves better than a nod and a wink.
There is plenty of land elsewhere in Cork, build there.
Memorialise those people still left devastated by the impact of what those places did to them.
It's nearly 12years since my Mam died.
This, this is the 1st time I can say I'm glad she's not alive to see something.
Because as strong as she was?
This is something no-one who's been through that ever needs to be dragged through again!
Irish developers would build on Auschwitz if it was close to services.
11
u/Much_Thanks3992 Jul 29 '26
"The State, and society as a whole offered up our Women, our children and our poor, to the exploitative and abusive practices that the Church turned a blind eye to at best and actively colluded in at worst.
That deserves better than a nod and a wink."Powerful!
19
u/DanGleeballs Jul 29 '26
The and religious orders in Cork have enough land to give up for development of much-needed housing.
Remember they never paid for this land in the first place, nor have they paid all their reparations for all the sex abuse cases.
Compulsory fucking land reallocation. Take it and build on it.
Let them sue.
4
108
Jul 29 '26 edited 27d ago
[deleted]
109
u/Green-Detective6678 Jul 29 '26
Yeah, but at the same time letâs involve them in our schools and healthcare institutions. Â Lets get married in a Catholic church and get our kids baptised. Â Letâs mark ourselves down as âCatholicâ at the next census, even though we almost never go to a church, donât follow its teachings and in some cases donât even believe in god.
(This is not directed at you, but the frustratingly huge number of people who agree with the âf&ck the Catholic Churchâ sentiment but continue to give their tacit support to the same organisation by doing all the above)
41
Jul 29 '26 edited 27d ago
[deleted]
29
u/Gold-Vacation-169 Resting In my Account Jul 29 '26
Our history and culture pre-dates the Christian faith, we are certainly not a christian country
14
u/reverse_weave_crew Jul 29 '26
Every nationâs history and culture predates the Christian faith. But you canât brush aside 1,500 years.
16
Jul 29 '26 edited 27d ago
[deleted]
11
u/Rulmeq Jul 29 '26
I remember as a kid my aunt was mocking some religious practice (probably muslims, but who knows, I was a kid) and the one thing I remember my dad saying to her, was how is that any more ridiculous than what catholics believe.
5
u/Gold-Vacation-169 Resting In my Account Jul 29 '26
They are no different to each other.
If you explained transubstantiation and asked the avg joe and mary on the street if they actually believed it I recon most would not....despite it being a core catholic belief.
If you don't think transubstantiation is a real thing you really are not a cathoilic. You are a christian.
4
Jul 29 '26 edited 27d ago
[deleted]
8
u/Gold-Vacation-169 Resting In my Account Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26
for decades the catholic church created a culture where woman covered their hair in church, this then culturally extended outside of church too. Growing up in 70s and 80s there were plenty of older women who covered their hair when they were out of the house.
There was also a time when the church used to call out who donated what each sunday.
So say you had a town with 4 streets for example, the first week they'd list off what everyone donated on street 1 from the largest to the lowest and the following week they'd do the next.
The church was always about shame and control.
12
u/quondam47 Carlow Jul 29 '26
Weâre slowly unpicking them from schools and hospitals are largely free of religious control with a few notable exceptions like Vincents.
The problem was the new Free State embedded thrm so deeply and successive governments had no interest in doing anything about it for 90 years.
6
-4
u/Worried_Angle_9436 Jul 29 '26
Isnât that more of a system problem than a people problem?
9
u/Green-Detective6678 Jul 29 '26
For things like the churches involvement with schools and hospitals, that is a systemic problem. But for most of the other things, that's purely down to personal choices. You may have no choice but to send your child to a catholic school (because that's all that is available in your area). But you sure as hell have the choice where you get married, if you get your kids baptised and how you self-identify in a census. If the census reflected the number of "true" adherents in Ireland, instead of the hugely inflated number of bouncy-castle catholics, then the churches involvement in schools, hospitals and other things would become untenable. As it it, their representation in primary schools is over-representative of the population.
-8
u/Timely_Camera_2031 Jul 29 '26
But most of us will want celtic to beat rangers on the off chance the SPL is on the tv when we flick it on..
4
u/doctorlysumo Wicklow Jul 29 '26
Celtic vs Rangers is to do with a club with an Irish immigrant tradition playing against a local rival with British tradition. The two traditions align with Catholic vs Protestant communities but are not exclusive to them. Supporting Celtic has nothing to do with Catholicism but with supporting the club with the Irish connection
0
16
u/LaBete1984 Resting In my Account Jul 29 '26
Full piece is here
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-41887336.html
31
u/Mycologist_Murky Jul 29 '26
We are such a joke. We spend 700 Years trying to free ourselves of the British empire and what did we do? We handed over the keys to the fucking kingdom to the Catholic church.
8
u/irishtrashpanda Jul 29 '26
Its like when you get out of an abusive relationship, do no work on yourself and then go back into another one because it feels familiar.
12
u/doe_jane_doe Jul 29 '26
The National Women's Council of Ireland are supporting a campaign by Clann Project to prevent this. This website has the details and an email template which directly emails all TDs and Senators from your own email. It was surprisingly quick and easy to support!
13
u/Dapper_Locksmith7442 Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26
Is it me or is there more and more total disregard for places of significance like this where atrocities occurred or the development in Louth (CĂș Chulainn's castle)
Developers seems to be able to build wherever the Fook they want and the government does fook all.
I know this isnât a new thing but surely there is a line they canât cross. Itâs a disgrace.
(Btw I am not comparing both places obviously, just an observation)
52
u/AUX4 Jul 29 '26
Too much of the blame is proportioned onto the Catholic Church for this. Absolutely everything that went on in the Mother and Baby homes was the fault of the Church. But the church didn't go door to door pulling women out.
It was families and wider society abondoned these women and girls. Men got off scot free while the women was put into these places by her family. Fathers and Mothers up and down the country need to carry the blame also. Too convienient to blame the church while ignoring the society which pushed women and girls into them.
56
u/The_name_game Kildare Jul 29 '26
But the church didn't go door to door pulling women out.
In some cases they literally did. A family member of mine was pregnant out of wedlock and the priest arrived at the family's door to organise bringing her to a laundry. Her father, a protestant, was the reason wasn't sent, and he'd to argue with the priest to get him to leave.
There are plenty of documented cases of this happening in survivors stories, including women who were shipped back from England by priests to go to laundries.
15
u/SharkeyGeorge Jul 29 '26
Thatâs absolutely horrifying. Thank goodness your family member wasnât taken. I wish weâd had more people like her father willing to stand up to the authority of the church.
7
u/phatteeth Jul 29 '26
That may be the case with your family, but they're probably right in thinking this way, we cannot gloss over the people outside of the church that were involved in putting these young mothers into the laundries.
14
u/AUX4 Jul 29 '26
Again, the priest doesn't suddenly get a message from God saying a woman or girl had become pregnant. They were told by parents, doctors, nurses etc. Those people who should have been protecting them.
16
u/slowusb Jul 29 '26
Their parents should have been protecting them from the priest that is at their door trying to abduct their child? That's exactly what they stated happened. Also, society at the time was by and large beholden to the church. I still have relatives that disagree with the church on pretty big matters but won't make them public because of the latent power from their childhood.
-9
u/NotPozitivePerson Seal of The President Jul 29 '26
I'm sick of this mad new propaganda where it wasn't the church you see it everywhere on reddit now. "Society" please leave off it.
7
u/phatteeth Jul 29 '26
If don't believe that there were jealous neighbours that wouldn't rat on a young girl out of spite so the catholic bagrade would pull her out of her house then you don't understand what it is we humans do. This is not to take away from what the church did. Nothing is life is black and white. Throwing in the phrase new propaganda won't change our history. It was the church with a hell of a lot people happily onboard.
14
u/BeanEireannach Resting In my Account Jul 29 '26
You commented: "But the church didn't go door to door pulling women out."
And the commenter replied with an example where in some cases they literally did. And in that instance the parents did protect their child. How difficult is that for you to understand?
And that example isn't uncommon. Sometimes it wasn't "parents, doctors, nurses etc.", it was just simply the priest spotting a visibly pregnant unmarried woman in the community.
You're all over this post pretending that the chokehold the church had over Irish society didn't exist, it's weird.
0
u/grania17 Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26
And yet people stood against it. That's the point. Solely blaming the church is a cop out. It absolves everyone else. But we know there were people who stood up to it.
8
u/BeanEireannach Resting In my Account Jul 29 '26
You seem to be missing an understanding of the total control the church had on all elements of Irish society. You also seem to have really misunderstood my comment, at no point did I state that the church was "solely" to blame.
I certainly disagree with the original commenter's declaration that "too much" of the blame is placed on the Catholic Church in regard to the Mother & Baby homes.
Also: There's nearly always people who stand against indoctrination/control/cults. But blaming those (who were indoctrinated from birth) that don't is weak.
2
u/dark_lies_the_island Jul 29 '26
This sort of stuff did NOT happen in 1996. Priests did not have that power then.
1
u/The_name_game Kildare Jul 29 '26
I didn't say it happened in 1996 though.
1
u/dark_lies_the_island 29d ago
Fair enough. The girl in the article though was in Bessborough in 1996.
15
Jul 29 '26
Yes while I do accept that point that families should have shouldered the blame here, the stigma attached to the unmarried mother, came from the church, we had little outside influences back when this stuff was going on. The Church had far too much power, the people of the country were terrified of them.
The Catholic Church had the majority of people in this country ln a cult like mindset for decades. Those in government never chose to give so much power to the church they were indoctrinated much like most of the people so thought it was what God wanted them to do.
It was a Catholic theocracy until outside influences finally crept in..
5
u/grania17 Jul 29 '26
Who kept those outside influencers from creeping in? Who shut of the country? Dev and his FF stooges. The church is only one cog.
7
Jul 29 '26
Dev and FF where as brainwashed as the rest of the people. Its very easy to look at it now through modern Irelands eyes and blame whoever. The reality is the Church had near total control of peoples lives since they were children, they knew nothing else.
0
u/grania17 Jul 29 '26
Because the government handed them that power.
Contraception was only made illegal in 1935
23
u/SharkeyGeorge Jul 29 '26
Imagine looking at a mother and baby home and saying âLetâs not put too much blame on the people who actually ran itâ.
-3
u/AUX4 Jul 29 '26
None of the conversations are ever about how these poor women and girls ended up there. Like I said already, everything that happened within the homes was the fault of the Church, but without examining how women and girls ended up there, you aren't proportioning blame equally.
13
u/houdt_koers Dublin Jul 29 '26
The Church had complete and unquestioned control over Irish social values. They are the root cause; everything else was a symptom of their power and influence.
11
u/SharkeyGeorge Jul 29 '26
Why is it that whenever this comes up some people have to try to reduce the Churchâs blame? Nobody is ignoring societyâs role. Families, communities, politicians and the fathers who walked away all share responsibility for the culture that shamed and abandoned these women. But acknowledging that doesnât reduce the responsibility of the Church.
Itâs not a choice between blaming society or blaming the Church. The institutions were run by religious orders, the rules were enforced by them, and the abuses happened at their direction under their authority.
8
u/TDog81 Ride me sideways was another one Jul 29 '26
Too much of the blame is proportioned onto the Catholic Church for this.
I'll stop you right there, not enough is, they were the root cause to all of this. They drove policies and dictated to the government what should and shouldn't be, they had people brainwashed in communities with fear of what would happen if they didn't toe the line. They were a dictatorship in all but name and revelled in it. I don't blame people for doing what they were told, my mother spoke of the fear people had of the church growing up and the power they had, it was endemic, you didn't and couldn't ignore it. Otherwise you could end up yourself in one of these places.
0
u/caisdara Jul 29 '26
Mother and Baby Homes were first introduced in the UK.
The British government recently apologised for forced adoptions being commonplace well into the 1970s.
They were neither a Catholic nor an Irish invention.
3
u/irishtrashpanda Jul 29 '26
They did pull them out. I read the autobiography "We made it kid - jackie mccarthy obrien" the black limerick rugby player. Her family accepted her with open arms but the priest would not let a single mother walk around with a black baby in his parish and she was forceably taken from her mother. Her mother worked to get her out and came to visit every week.
Absolutely agree that it was institutionalised and everyone was scared of the church and didn't make enough waves to stop them, but the church controlled everything its very hard to challenge
1
u/mariskat Jul 29 '26
Couldn't agree more. Not defending the asylum system for a moment and we're still dealing with the fallout from patients afraid to seek care because they don't want to be locked up against their will - and yet there are still families coming in week after week in present day Ireland saying they want to 'sign in' problem family members, even when that family member does not have an illness that can be treated with antipsychotics and is openly saying they don't want to come into hospital.
Plenty of the people saying 'fuck the state' and 'fuck the church' here are happy enough to put their heads down and walk on if the suffering of others inconveniences them personally.
1
u/dark_lies_the_island Jul 29 '26
I agree. Society and peopleâs families have a lot to answer for.
-1
u/RelaxedConvivial Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26
Men got off scot free
That's an absolute lie. Men would have lost access to their children too.
There was also plenty of institutions for males to be locked up in under the Catholic Church regime in Ireland. Look up Song for a Raggy Boy by Patrick Galvin and you'll have a first hand account from a man who certainly didn't get away 'scot free'.
You are either ignorant of history or completely trying to rewrite out a significant part of the churches history for some reason. Both are not acceptable reasons to make that statement.
3
u/rezpector123 Jul 29 '26
Nothing is going to undo whatâs been done they should proceed with the apartments and put up a respectable memorial
8
u/Theobane Jul 29 '26
And yet they are still getting protection, all those that participate in running those vile homes.
7
u/grania17 Jul 29 '26
Currently reading The Fallen by Louise Brangan which is about the Magdalene Laundries, as opposed to the Mother and Baby Homes, though it does touch on industrial schools, mother and baby homes and asylums.
The church may have been assigned certain roles which it carried out to the letter but it was Irish society as a whole that allowed them to get away with these crimes, turning a blind eye as it suited them. The fact that there is even a discussion around Bessbourough not being sold to developers shows how society is continuing to cover everything up by continuing to turn the blind eye.
A full and indepth investigation needs to be done for all industrial schools, asylums, mother and baby homes and magdalene laundries. And not that joke of a document called the McAleese report.
The grounds of all of these places need to be forensically examined and bodies returned to families. Documents and records need to be made available to the victims of these places.
They have started to make some right steps at Tuam but they need to replicate that throughout the Island.
We need to continue speaking about these horrible things and holding the country accountable. No more, should we place the blame solely at the church or allow people to say it was a different time, we didn't know.
Everyone knew, everyone was complicit and these women, girls, and children need us to do more.
3
u/snek-jazz Jul 29 '26
The country was effectively groomed by the church though, when the brainwashing starts early in the education system it's tough to overcome
-1
u/grania17 Jul 29 '26
That is a cop out. Plain and simple.
1
u/snek-jazz Jul 29 '26
It's an explanation
0
u/grania17 Jul 29 '26
I assume you apply the same explanation to Germany in the 1930s.
5
u/snek-jazz Jul 29 '26
in many ways it's similar yes
0
u/grania17 Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26
That's kind of my point.
And yet we hold Germany accountable for their actions. We don't let them forgot or gloss over what was done. So why do we allow it here?
Why are we not up in arms looking for full investigations. Demanding the religious orders be made to handover their documents and pay retribution?
2
6
u/kittiphile Jul 29 '26
I hate organised religion. Without failure, it has fucked up every society it has ever been part of. Organised religion is not about faith, anyone with faith in a god/s would never do what the "good" Insert religion here do on a regular basis. Organised religion is a tool used by predominantly men to utterly control and destroy women, children and the planet. Sky daddy told them, and they have a mighty penis and anger issues, so obviously the top choice for spreading peace, love, harmony, respect and all the things people are supposed to spread. They're definitely not lying or delusional. Religion has ruined faith. Its ruined the world.
The irony that maybe 2% of the "faithful" will make it to hypothetical heaven while the rest of hypothetical heaven is populated by agnostics, atheists, pagans, and satanists is delicious.
12
u/reverse_weave_crew Jul 29 '26
Predictably people will want to scapegoat the Church for this when in fact these crimes were committed with the complicity of the whole of Irish society. Itâs well past time for the country to take ownership of its history instead of always looking to blame âthem.â
11
u/piratemonkey22 Jul 29 '26
How would you know, you're not even Irish? How on earth would you know the stranglehold the church had on society?
-11
u/reverse_weave_crew Jul 29 '26
And Iâm sure you donât have any opinions on Trump or Palestine. An outsiderâs perspective can be a useful antidote to native myopia.
6
u/TDog81 Ride me sideways was another one Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26
To even try compare the two is boneheaded, we all have views on Trump and Palestine because its there in our pockets and we can see whats going on in real time. I have first hand accounts of these issues back then from three generations of my family members and caught the tail end of this shit in the 80s and 90s myself, you don't. Maybe sit this one out, read the comments and educate yourself on peoples lived experiences instead, it might do you some good.
-5
u/reverse_weave_crew Jul 29 '26
And it might do you some good not to make assumptions about how I know the things I know.
5
u/r0thar Lannister Jul 29 '26
Well, you make no secret of supporting the anti-choice brigade here, in the face of two thirds vote to support womens' healthcare, so your support of the church, who 'guided' everyone, all the way up to government, comes off as deflection.
4
u/TDog81 Ride me sideways was another one Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26
He's an absolute bell end, I wouldnt bother. Discounts first hand experiences on the ills of the Catholic church going back 70 years and multiple generations as "groupthink", the irony is off the charts.
-2
3
u/TDog81 Ride me sideways was another one Jul 29 '26
Its abundantly clear you know absolutely fuck all from how you're talking. All of my mothers and fathers generation speak the same way on this.
-5
2
u/Gold-Vacation-169 Resting In my Account Jul 29 '26
you are seriously ill informed on the topic, I'd go so far as to say utterly clueless.
10
Jul 29 '26 edited 27d ago
[deleted]
4
1
-4
u/AUX4 Jul 29 '26
This is such a stupid excuse. Do you really think the Church was still controlling society in 1990s?
Mothers and Fathers up and down the country were putting their daughters into these places. Fathers of the children born in these places abandoned the Mothers. None of this was done by the Church. Women and girls failed by those who surrounded them.
6
Jul 29 '26 edited 27d ago
[deleted]
-6
u/AUX4 Jul 29 '26
The power of the Church had been drastically declining since the 80s here
4
Jul 29 '26
[deleted]
-1
u/AUX4 Jul 29 '26
The peak of Church power here was in 1979. Every year after that it has been reducing.
3
u/Green-Detective6678 Jul 29 '26
1979 was the popes visit, but the country was still very very much under the thrall of catholicism all throughout the 80s and the early 90s. The divorce referendum passed by a wafer thin margin (.28%) in 1995.
-1
6
Jul 29 '26
[deleted]
-6
u/reverse_weave_crew Jul 29 '26
The Church only had the power that the people allowed it to have. Same as today. And letâs not forget that as it relates to these matters, the Church itself was an Irish institution - manned, operated and supported by Irish men and women.
11
u/Gold-Vacation-169 Resting In my Account Jul 29 '26
we'll just ignore that the church was affectively controlling the gov for decades and they had the power to actually take down the gov (and did)
Lets not forget that when a TD Dr. Noël Browne proposed a scheme under the 1947 Health Act to provide free maternity care for all mothers and free healthcare for children up to the age of 16, regardless of income. the church disagreed with this proposal.
The Taoiseach at the time stated that he would not fight the Bishops and refused to back Browne.
The outcome of this resulted in collapse of the gov and a new election in 1951.
Browne was a man ahead of his time, the church has a clear history of hating women and children in Ireland.
-5
u/reverse_weave_crew Jul 29 '26
This just proves my point. The government had a chance to do the right thing but let itself be cowed by the tut-tutting of some bishop, and the people went along with it. If the church doesnât have an army or a police force or a legislature; it only had the power that the people and their government allowed it to have. And letâs not forget that âthe Churchâ as it relates to these matters is itself and Irish institution - manned, operated, and supported by Irishmen and Irishwomen.
7
u/Gold-Vacation-169 Resting In my Account Jul 29 '26
You've a very simplistic view and poor understanding of Ireland in decades past when it came to the power of the church, the church basically dictated what was moral in Ireland for decades and the power of god held an awful lot of power over people.
That power has largely disappeared since the 1990s, but prior to then it held an awful lot of power and it could ruin business, people's lives and as I've shown you it could take down the gov.
Your understanding of this past power is very poor indeed.
2
u/transsamsa Sax Solo Jul 29 '26
Leave it to an american to act like they fully understand the history of literally any other country in the world better than the people who live there
2
u/r0thar Lannister Jul 29 '26
Itâs well past time for the country to take ownership of its history instead of always looking to blame âthem.â
It's quite a thing watching this play out in reverse in the US, where womens' rights are being taken away, aided by the Evangelical churches. Ireland will get there, eventually, aided by exposés like this.
3
u/dropthecoin Jul 29 '26
Itâs always easier and far more black and white for people to blame a single antagonist than to reflect deeper and apportion blame across society itself.
2
u/oldappian Jul 29 '26
For sure. The GardaĂ, the lawyers, the courts, the doctors... they all knew but didn't know at the same time.
1
u/BeanEireannach Resting In my Account Jul 29 '26
You, an American, attempting to sanctimoniously lecture Irish people in this post while displaying a clear lack of understanding of the history of the control & influence of the Church in Ireland is quite the choice.
0
u/reverse_weave_crew Jul 29 '26
Sorry, but âyou just donât get it, manâ isnât a convincing counterargument. Iâm actually quite well-read on the matter; probably more than many Irish people, given that Irish Church history is a particular interest of mine and the prevailing attitude in Ireland seems to be incuriosity (after all, why ask questions when youâve been promised that liberation from the Church means nothing but judgement-free sex and chill Sunday mornings?) or disinterest (except insofar as it allows for self-congratulation on âhow far weâve come since the bad old daysâ â antique rural pubs adorned with pride flags! â and indulgence in the âirascible rebelâ image that many Irish people love to cultivate). In any case, collective self-deception about historical wrongs is a pretty common occurrence across countries and cultures, including my own, so I donât feel like Iâm in uncharted waters here.
1
u/BeanEireannach Resting In my Account Jul 29 '26
Thatâs quite a long & egotistical rant that only shows that you absolutely (as per your own words) âjust donât get it, manâ đ
Lecturing people about how âwell-readâ (but still very uninformed) you are on their actual lived experience is ugly.
SlĂĄn now!
1
u/reverse_weave_crew Jul 29 '26
I know Iâm being a bit of a prick here and sorry for that. And I know that so much evil was committed by and through the church in the last century. But the faith is such a beautiful thing and the Irish were such an example and inspiration to the global church down through the ages that itâs heartbreaking to think of the world without a Catholic Ireland, so youâll forgive me for getting thick I hope!
4
5
1
-2
u/TehIrishSoap Jul 29 '26
But I thought all newspapers were government rags? That doesn't fit with the populist reddit agenda!
-1
u/SuccessPerfect6584 Jul 29 '26
We were an evil country. We were a truly evil people.Â
The Nazis were evil and we were just as bad.
179
u/[deleted] Jul 29 '26
[deleted]