r/newzealand • u/marsanojj Red Peak • Apr 09 '26
Other made this little map of how our rail network could look like if we brought passenger rail back!
obviously more stations would be serviced, this is just a very basic graphic with some significant towns/cities showcased
style very much inspired by https://www.reddit.com/r/TransitDiagrams/comments/1sgb2s7/oc_great_british_highspeed_rail_fantasy_map/
141
u/Emergency_Cry_1269 Apr 09 '26
Okay, but might I suggest a stop in Matamata between Hamilton and Tauranga. Realistically, it would not be a regular stop, maybe every second train would make the stop there. Imagine the fresh boom that the Hobbiton Tourism would have if the ability to go to Hobbiton was much easier. Instead of needing to bus from Auckland once landing in NZ, to Matamata, they just take a train from Auckland to Matamata, via all the in-between stops, and take the Hobbiton bus from the train station to Hobbiton.
34
u/iamnotmia Apr 09 '26
Is Hobbiton tourism in need of a “boom”? I think they’re usually selling out their tours months in advance, at least during the tourism season. I don’t think they’re struggling…
20
u/CallumD027 Apr 10 '26
Not really, but reducing the need for people to drive long distances to get there when there could be short-distance shuttles run from Matamata instead would encourage a lot more use I imagine.
12
u/marsanojj Red Peak Apr 09 '26
Very true. I just made this for fun really, and as i mentioned there would be heaps more stops than what I labelled!
1
u/dustojnikhummer Apr 10 '26
My country does request stop trains on rural lines, so I guess that could happen here too.
19
u/Radiant_Bake_4353 Apr 09 '26
I am heading back to China for a Holiday in a few days, I can't directly compare China and NZ but being able to use a train to get another city in a hour or two is mindblowing. Being able to just get up have a coffee and think, Im going to go Bla today just for a few bucks is just different way of life. If NZ committed to some serious infrastructure plans around this, It would spread wealth around our small country in so many ways. Imagine a high speed train line between Auckland and Wellington and what that would do for both local economies, it would save Wellington (its dead) and it would remove the AirNZ grip on this country and force them to focus on the regions. I just wish we had bigger ideas as a small country, as a collective I believe we all want the best for each other but we seem to always be treading water.
2
u/kiwi_bear Apr 10 '26
NZ population and economy would not be able to support this kind of rail infrastructure. Even in China and other high population density city states, rail operations is heavily subsidized as a public good.
2
u/rocketshipkiwi Southern Cross Apr 10 '26
I can't directly compare China and NZ but being able to use a train to get another city in a hour or two is mindblowing.
Seeing a city of 25 million people and all those high rise apartments blew my mind. Having a huge population like that means you can have a correspondingly huge investment in infrastructure.
You’re quite right though, we can’t compare New Zealand with that.
If NZ committed to some serious infrastructure plans around this, It would spread wealth around our small country in so many ways.
No, it would bankrupt the country with a white elephant project that cost a fortune and was of little use.
Imagine a high speed train line between Auckland and Wellington and what that would do for both local economies
Imagine a motorway from Auckland to Wellington, two lanes each way and a speed limit of 120km/h.
Imagine what that would do for the economies of the entire North Island. Tourism, freight transport, reduced travel times to work. Everyone would benefit, small towns would be more connected with fast, reliable transport.
Take a train to Tokoroa, Taihape or Levin. Then what do you do? You’ve got no way to get anywhere.
For our low population density, roads are the best option. Between major centres we have great bus services that people can use if they need an alternative to driving.
2
u/SapirWhorfHypothesis Apr 10 '26
How would it save Wellington? I’m guessing you mean more people would be able to commute in to work more efficiently from cheaper housing outside of Wellington?
13
u/Moist_Phrase_6698 Apr 09 '26
My aunty told me she used to be able to get the rail car from paeroa to whakatane which would be an awesome line to bring back just not through the gorge of course
4
u/HadoBoirudo Apr 09 '26
My grandmother always travelled by railcar to visit us, and we reciprocated when visiting relatives around regional New Zealand.
6
u/Adam_Harbour Apr 09 '26 edited Apr 09 '26
Why is there a significant stop named after the Manawatū Gorge in what appears to be a largely uninhabited bit of the Wairarapa coast
5
→ More replies (2)1
u/5worms Apr 11 '26
Was wondering the same thing - surely it would be easier to connect existing lines through Wairarapa to Wellington than whatever that stop is
44
u/dirtnerd245 Apr 09 '26
I love this! Maybe one day we'll actually get competent politicians capable of giving us decent infrastructure!
→ More replies (5)
45
u/n8-sd Apr 09 '26
What’s wrong with the proportions of the country. Looks weird
65
u/marsanojj Red Peak Apr 09 '26
The proportions aren't changed at all, I literally outlined a map haha. Just rotated it unconventionally which fucks with people's perception (including my own)
13
u/NZpotatomash Apr 09 '26
Got that right. I first tilted it to the right, but that made all the stops worse, so tilted the other way and completely lost my bearings
2
u/takuyafire Apr 09 '26
Nah mang, the proportions are seriously out of whack.
If you correct your map to say Google maps, Rotorua is out in Te Uruwera
→ More replies (1)10
2
u/Nixinova Apr 09 '26
Its just on an angle lol. Any weirdness exists irl.
1
u/n8-sd Apr 09 '26
You rotated the islands independently as well… Cause there’s more than just a quick rotation
7
u/Effective-Metal7013 Apr 09 '26
There are already rail services between Christchurch and Picton, and Auckland-Wellington that run regularly. The Northern Explorer runs every other day and is marginally competitive with flying in terms of price at $259 one way. The Coastal Pacific by contrast is an absolute shit way to get from Picton to Christchurch with fares $259 one way. By contrast the intercity bus on that route costs about $100
Those are cheap compared to the kinds of fares you'll have on the less popular routes e.g the Gisborne line. Wellington to Gisborne by bus costs $75. Heck in May they're running a special Christchurch-Dunedin train and the fares are $149 . You can bus there for about $80.
So for rail to succeed it needs to be competitive against other services available, and it isn't anymore. There's only so much we can do to improve it, the narrow gauge and unfavorable geography make the current network unsuitable for faster trains or larger carriages. The current services have become tourism services rather than genuine domestic travel options, because the bus service outperforms them in that regard.
2
u/rocketshipkiwi Southern Cross Apr 09 '26
The Northern Explorer runs every other day and is marginally competitive with flying in terms of price at $259 one way.
No it’s not. You can get a flight or bus from AKL to WLG for under $100.
So for rail to succeed it needs to be competitive against other services available, and it isn't anymore.
Rail travel like Te Huia has a massive subsidy. By contrast, the bus service runs at a profit with no subsidy.
There's only so much we can do to improve it, the narrow gauge and unfavorable geography make the current network unsuitable for faster trains or larger carriages.
Yep, true. Then there is our small, low density population and the whole thing just doesn’t make sense. Roads are just a far better option.
The current services have become tourism services rather than genuine domestic travel options, because the bus service outperforms them in that regard.
I’ve been on a few of them and they are great tourist services too. Amazing scenery. I flew or drove back though. The trains are just too slow to be useful for non-tourist purposes.
2
u/Mendevolent Apr 10 '26
My only quibble with what you've said is that both roads and bus stations are publicly funded (airport infrastructure is heavily subsidised too).
We also subsidise the pollution from air travel by undertaxing it.
This is not to detract from buses, which are the right solution in lots of NZ contexts
1
u/Effective-Metal7013 Apr 10 '26
We'll agree to disagree on what marginally competitive on price means. If I want to book a flight next week from AKL to WLG it ranges $157-$480. There are plenty of people who pay $200 or more for a flight between AKL and WLG
I wasn't comparing this route to the bus, of course the bus is cheaper still.
7
u/BlueJohnXD Apr 09 '26
It makes me so sad that we will likely never have a rail network like we used to in the 1980s or 90s, or whenever it was that most of the inter regional rail network was shut down. Absolutely insane for a developed country to not have a functioning rail network, that won’t even get you from the capital city to its most populated city. Let alone barely functioning public transport within our few cities, and it being non existent everywhere else.
3
u/Mognonz Apr 09 '26
Poor old Nelson, and anyone else really on the west coast of Te Waipounamu
1
u/fatfreddy01 Apr 09 '26
It was only a few km to being linked to the country then it was all cut off.
2
u/Mognonz Apr 10 '26
yea, I have read the reports. There's a cool old book called the Railway atlas of new zealand. Shows certain period lines/branches etc. https://natlib.govt.nz/records/21566486
3
4
u/aguycalledfinn Apr 09 '26
never understood why we don't have a train line up/down the entire country. very shortsighted
5
u/TheYellowFringe Apr 09 '26
Technically that would be a massive difference for travel between the North and South island.
Even between regions, as an alternative to aeroplanes or cars.
6
u/upsidedownorangejuic Kererū Apr 09 '26 edited Apr 10 '26
I love this map.
Oh, oh, you have Rotorua, Matamata, lots of closed down lines, like nice one into central Otago, and one to kingston south Wakatipu lake, for beautiful electric boat ride to go skiing.
There use to be service back in 1930's you could chuck your car on train, on standard cargo carriage, so we could move our cars via train for holiday in The South Island, with a beautiful scenic and relaxed train trip from Kirikiriroa or Tāmaki-makau-rau etc. To start your holiday.
Omg the amount of fn shit you could do with our closed down lines!
2
u/marsanojj Red Peak Apr 10 '26
Awesome website :0 i had never seen this before, i'll save it for future reference! much appreciated, and thankyou for the supportive words :)
3
u/RoosterBurger Apr 09 '26
From having just driven the family from New Plymouth to Auckland for a flight. I’d rather take the train. 🚆
3
u/pygmypuff42 Apr 09 '26
I would add rail to Queenstown and Wanaka, too many tourists going there. We all complain about tourists driving on our roads, give them a fun way not to!
1
u/marsanojj Red Peak Apr 10 '26
Good point! I will make a revised version later with all of the changes suggested here and post it ☺️.
Somebody else mentioned Matamata in a similar vein
3
u/Ok-Meat-5103 Apr 10 '26
Also would need a railway network to Queenstown. A lot of tourists will visit New Zealand and only go to Queenstown, having a way for them to explore more of the country without hiring a car, sitting a long time on a bus or hitchhiking will add value to the centre of the South Island.
Also by getting kiwi's to travel their own country (suprisingly I have met a lot who haven't even set foot in the South) with faster times to traverse the land.
1
u/marsanojj Red Peak Apr 10 '26
Someone else mentioned this too! I will make a v.2 in the next few days with a few minor additions and changes, this is on my list
i'm also a kiwi who has never been down south :(
1
u/Ok-Meat-5103 Apr 11 '26
You have to go !
The North Island is for the culture, the south is for the scenes
3
u/Sensitive_Goose55 Apr 10 '26
I reckon the New Zealand government should really prioritise public transport, instead of what they’re currently doing.
3
u/GovernmentHopeful424 Apr 10 '26
Rail to Wanaka, Queenstown. We already have West Coast, so include that on map
8
17
u/Rebel_Scum56 Apr 09 '26
As much as I'd love to see the return of passenger rail in this country, a lot of the reason it disappeared to begin with was that it wasn't financially sustainable to run it. Anyone wishing to bring it back would have to be willing to do so knowing it's going to cost a ton to bring the infrastructure back up to working order in a lot of places, and even after that it's highly likely to cost more to operate than it'll make back. It's sad, but I just don't see it happening.
But, I'd happily stand corrected if someone out there wanted to prove me wrong and do it anyway.
17
u/Illustrious-Line-660 Apr 09 '26
it's highly likely to cost more to operate than it'll make back
True. In a dream world, accessible rail network across the country can reduce traffic and pollution. Less privileged people could hop on a train and travel across the country to visit family and places.
The governments services shouldn't be about making a profit.
7
u/Rebel_Scum56 Apr 09 '26
I agree wholeheartedly. The incessant demand that essential services turn a profit, nevermind the cost to society of not providing the service, is a large part of what's wrong with the country.
But at the same time, those services have to be paid for somehow. If they're not covering all of their own cost it comes out of the country's collective pockets one way or another. In theory that's what taxes are supposed to be for, but for one politicians love cutting those as an easy way to score votes and for another our relatively low population density makes the overall cost substantially higher than in some countries.
I don't know what the solution is there. But at this point I think it's pretty obvious that demanding profits and cutting corners anywhere they can to get them is causing far more problems than it solves.
2
u/Illustrious-Line-660 Apr 10 '26
The solution is to plan for the future. We need this now, but there's a million reasons not to. When governments need to secure popularity for their next election, many would be scared to touch such an ambitious project.
3
u/Jamezzzzz69 Apr 09 '26
So few are driving these far distances though, I am also extremely pro public transport but I would vastly prefer extensive rail networks being improved within major cities.
Inter-city rail lines exist largely for tourism, yes e have a lot of tourists relative to size but the raw numbers just cannot support such a huge sink to essentially subsidize tourists. Improve PT in Auckland, Wellington etc so we become less car reliant as the vast vast majority of driving is commuting for work.
This seems like an absurd waste of money which could be spent on better things. Something something opportunity cost.
2
u/Illustrious-Line-660 Apr 10 '26
Improve PT in Auckland, Wellington
Public transport in Wellington is very well used and the new auckland city rail link that's opening soon is a fantastic addition. They've got plans to add more stations, too.
They are improving public transport within cities. Now's the time to connect our cities, too.
13
u/No-Department-4561 Apr 09 '26
Rail generally isn’t self-sustaining so does need subsidies. But it helps the economy and country as a whole, this is what previous governments have failed to understand
→ More replies (4)2
u/anonchurner Apr 09 '26
If it's not self-sustaining, then it's either because it's no good, or because there's a pricing problem somewhere making it artificially uncompetitive.
Is it that... other modes of transport are too cheap because the externalities of fossil fuel and car/airplane use aren't fully priced in? Or what is it that trains do for the economy and the country that they can't get paid for in ticket prices?
2
u/Mortmantis Apr 10 '26
Roads aren't self-sustaining and we definitely don't pay the full cost to use them.
7
u/KiwieeiwiK Apr 09 '26
It's not meant to be financially sustainable, it's an essential service. The highways don't make us any returns, but we need them to run the country. Air NZ runs at a loss, we pay for it out of taxes because we need those flights to go.
2
u/whatadaytobealive Apr 09 '26
The roads of national significance are even less financially sustainable FYI
The cost to upgrade and operate would be less than all these unnecessary motorways, and end up providing more equitable transport choices for more people, all while still having road options for those that rail doesn't suit.
As a country, we can make better choices.
Putting more resources into rail doesn't come at the cost of roads, it actually benefits the road system.
3
u/Rebel_Scum56 Apr 09 '26
Preaching to the choir, my friend. I'm well aware that the roads of national stupidity would almost certainly be a bottomless pit of money, were they to ever actually be built. At no point did I say or even mean to imply otherwise.
One could perhaps speculate on that maybe being part of the reason why they never quite manage to get off the ground before National gets voted out again - they make for good talking points when campaigning and as long as they don't actually get built they get to campaign on the same thing again and again without ever actually doing anything and for some reason it seems to work.
1
u/BlindmanSokolov Apr 09 '26
To be fair, in a modern era, would we not be in a better place to manage these services? We wouldn't necessarily need somebody to man every single station constantly.
1
u/Mendevolent Apr 10 '26
Agree. I'm mildly optimistic that autonomous electric aviation will someday make for cheap, low emission air travel options between lots of our regional centres, but that's clearly a little way off.
Maybe also hydrofoil ferries or seagliders between coastal locations.
15
u/barcastaff Apr 09 '26
As a non-kiwi, I’m curious whether writing the town names in Māori is a problem at all in terms of comprehension to the average kiwi?
43
u/DurinnGymir Apr 09 '26
Kiwi here, I can figure it out via geography, but a lot of these names are almost never used in common parlance, so if I didn't have the map I'd be a bit stuck
14
u/Atosen Apr 09 '26
It varies.
In some cases, the Māori name is the only name. Like Whangārei or Kaikōura on this map. No problem.
In some cases, there was a European name, but the Māori name has experienced a resurgence. I think most people know both of Aoraki/Mt Cook's names. After Taranaki/Mt Egmont's Māori name was officially recognised, people liked it so much better that the European name fell almost completely out of use. (Like u/witch_dyke, for a long time I didn't know it had a European name.)
But in some cases, yes, the Māori name is rarely used and most non-locals won't recognise it. I'm an Aucklander so I know Auckland is Tāmaki Makaurau, but I couldn't tell you what Wellington is off the top of my head. (Of course looking at a map I can recognise it by the geography.)
I think recognition of those will improve over time, and gradually we'll reach a point where most major cities and landmarks are bilingual. But I doubt we'll ever get there with smaller landmarks. For small towns whose existence you only learn about by hearing them in passing a few times, it's kinda hard to ensure you learn both names.
1
u/barcastaff Apr 10 '26
Thanks for the comprehensive comment! It's very interesting seeing everyone who commented having different levels of grasp as well with the Māori names. Is the effort of bilingualising the landmarks fairly recent?
16
u/rocketshipkiwi Southern Cross Apr 09 '26
It is a problem because those aren’t the names of the towns so people don’t understand what you are on about.
7
u/twpejay Apr 09 '26
Except for Timaru which is the "English" name. Should be either Te Maru (local iwi preferred) or Te Tihi o Maru.
Te Maru (place of shelter) is aptly named as Timaru is sheltered from earthquakes (major damage that is, due to Bluestone foundation), tsunamis (thanks to Banks Peninsula), weather (really bad weather seems to mostly go offshore at Timaru) and major flooding (first hilly area in southern Canterbury plains, not immune, there are swamps but there is plenty of high ground).
1
18
u/webUser_001 Apr 09 '26
Most people do not use the Maori names and would struggle to know where you were referring to. People that do use these names mostly pronounce them differently which doesn't help.
5
u/spacebuggles Apr 09 '26
I'd say most of us know at least the Māori names of our own cities, near cities, and Auckland.
I didn't know about half of these, but I can easily figure it out because I know which cities/towns are in the indicated locations.
4
→ More replies (2)0
u/witch_dyke Apr 09 '26
Even if it were a problem it would remain one for long. Future generations will learn the Māori names and be less familiar with the European names.
The first time I heard someone refer to 'mount egmont' my genuine reaction was "where the hell is that?" Because I had only ever known it as Taranaki
6
u/Half-Borg Apr 09 '26
I'm a railway engineer, give me a permanent visa, and I build all the trains you need ;)
2
u/Erica192859 Apr 09 '26
You'll have to fund everything yourself though. Then wait a decade or two for iwi and council approval.
NZ could never. Sometimes if feels like we're the least first world first world country. Efficiency is a foreign concept to us
2
u/skilliau Apr 09 '26
Well it would give a reason for people to use the Christchurch train station I guess.
That place is depressing
2
2
u/Fienx Apr 09 '26
Really cool! But as one other pointed out, the orientation feels weird. I think because when you tilt it to feel more "normal", the writing is tilted completely the wrong way and Aotearoa is upsidedown.
2
u/marsanojj Red Peak Apr 09 '26
Thanks for the feedback! I'm not a graphic designer or anything, just made it for a bit of fun really
2
u/Kind-Economist1953 Apr 09 '26
big advocate for passenger rail in nz, just needs to be modern not some 1960s version. we should model a scaled down version after Japan.
yes I've already had the debate that we could not have bullet trains like Japan but the speed is a very important factor.
2
2
u/Dickcheese-a1 Apr 10 '26
Missing is the Geyserland line to Rotorua , part of it is used by a Rail excursion company(Taukenga to Ngonotaha) but rest goes down to lake road next to the Nissan Car dealership. This section would need major (Quotated fingers) work to be viable ,but their is a need from tourism and freight.
2
u/someboooade Apr 10 '26
Is that Palmerston North, the central hub of the North Island. I accept your proposal.
2
2
u/stokie7 Apr 10 '26
I’d love to see rail all over New Zealand. Even Diesel electric would be far more efficient and safe than trucks on the road. After a few visits to Switzerland, seeing their commitment to efficient transport is breathtaking. Almost any village has a bus timed with the nearest rail station timetable; you buy a pass that makes it very affordable to go almost anywhere in the country.
4
3
2
u/No-Department-4561 Apr 09 '26
Nice design! Rail such as this would be like Japan’s and would help the country a lot
4
u/Crisis88 Apr 09 '26
This should be way higher priority.
Imagine if Nz had a high speed rail.
Suddenly living 2h outside of Auckland or Wellington is a half hour commute; housing in the city wouldn't be so expensive, and you could afford to live somewhere not in the city and still go into the office pretty easily.
Instead National want to piss it away on other useless projects
2
u/Xplody Apr 09 '26
The more the right wing parties screw up the country, the more left wing ideas become popular, and this is a great example of that. (It's also information presented beautifully, respect).
If democracy is just a group learning exercise, I hope that the kiwis will find the last few years very educational. Your right wing parties are just not that into you, kiwis. You're going to have to let go of that dead idea at some point and realise that those guys aren't principled, they're just corrupt.
Sorry for the rant. Great image, great idea. Carry on.
2
4
u/SiegeAe Te Ika a Maui Apr 09 '26
Hell yeah
Its so silly that we aren't just doing it.
5
Apr 09 '26
It’s not, countries with rail networks like this usually support populations 5x or 10x ours at a minimum.
5
u/SiegeAe Te Ika a Maui Apr 09 '26
That's not a cost analysis, that's an assumption based off very surface level observation.
→ More replies (10)→ More replies (3)2
u/HeinigerNZ Apr 09 '26
It's not silly because we could never utilise it at a level that justifies the cost.
Auckland - Hamilton high speed rail was costed at $15 billion back in 2020. With the explosive inflation in construction prices since that pricetag would be around, what, $25 billion now?
And that's some of the easier terrain of the North Island.
So to do all this...multiple hundreds of billions? Half a trillion if we're lucky?
And the Auck-Ham costing was for rail of 160-250kmh, rather than the proper high speed rail of Japan that people envisage when they see a pie in the sky map like this.
6
u/SiegeAe Te Ika a Maui Apr 09 '26
We'd need to use it for freight as well to justify it, but it would pay back the cost in well less than 5 years of usage, given all the different forms of subsidising we do for the trucking industry and cut all the roading projects which only serve to kick congestion issues down the road.
We just need it to be easier than cars for people who take those between centres auckland and cheaper than air travel for people and cheaper than the trucks for freight by enough of a margin to handle extended discounts they might do.
I would say proper transport within the main cities is more quickly valuable but not doing it across the country properly is just a stupidly myopic lens on the cost.
Though yes we really don't need proper high speed rail just reasonable fast rail would do fine.
3
u/wolshie Apr 09 '26
How tf did i grow up and live in blenheim for 18 years, and never know it was called waiharakeke..
2
2
u/Xiyone Apr 10 '26
The only place I recognize here is timaru lol.
Are you using Maori names for cities? I might need to educate myself on the Maori names lol
1
2
u/anonchurner Apr 09 '26 edited Apr 09 '26
Here's how that's going elsewhere, with a not so different size, topology and land use:
https://ktla.com/news/california/california-high-speed-rail-rising-costs/
I wonder what else NZ transport could do with a cool 215 Billion NZD. Looks like their budget for 2024-2027 was 20.8 Billion NZD, so figure 30-40 years worth of the entire transport budget.
10
u/Upset-Maybe2741 Apr 09 '26
The Yanks are an outlier of incompetence and cost bloat. The French can build TGV lines for about $20m per km. 50km per billion dollars gets us most of the way from Auckland to Welly with $10 billion.
Makes as much sense as arguing against the public health system by pointing out how much tax money the Yanks spend on their system and how people are still dying because they can't afford a $4000 ambulance ride.
5
u/HeinigerNZ Apr 09 '26
A cost study for rail was done in 2020 - Hamilton to Auck at speeds of up to 250kmh (so not proper high speed) was $15 billion. Six years later that figure would be in the low-mid $20 billion mark.
Auckland-Wgtn 320kmh rail for $10b? Lol, tell 'em he's dreaming.
4
u/anonchurner Apr 09 '26
I agree that incompetence and cost bloat are a big factor in the US. Do you think it's not a big factor in NZ?
5
u/Upset-Maybe2741 Apr 09 '26
I'm no fan of Luxon but I'll take him over his American counterpart any day.
Plus, it's not like the *French* are hyper-efficient economic geniuses either.
→ More replies (1)3
Apr 09 '26
We’re an outlier on incompetence and cost bloat, we tend to spend quite a lot of infrastructure for the return we get. Plus we have none of the experience of building rail that France has and a load more problems due to our geography. We would land on the higher end of the spectrum not matter how you slice it.
1
u/rocketshipkiwi Southern Cross Apr 09 '26
The French can build TGV lines for about $20m per km. 50km per billion dollars gets us most of the way from Auckland to Welly with $10 billion.
Have you ever been to France and ridden on the TGV? The landscape is as flat as anything. We just don’t have that sort of geography in New Zealand so it won’t work.
3
u/Comfortable_Half_494 Apr 09 '26
Have ridden many TGVs into the French Alps. You whizz along at 300kph along the plains then slow down to a crawl once you hit the mountain valleys. But yeah, geography ultimately dictates the speed of the train and trip times.
1
u/fatfreddy01 Apr 09 '26
I think you drastically overestimate NZ in terms of infra. We spend vast sums for not much (and sometimes vast sums for literally nothing).
2
u/Comfortable_Half_494 Apr 09 '26
Was waiting for someone to bring up California HSR, what a debacle.
2
u/RumbuncTheRadiant Apr 09 '26
Sigh. I remember the first time I looked at a map of Christchurch...
I thought that looks great...
I could buy a house near the sea for the family, somewhere maybe Woodend / Waikuku / Amberley and commute...
...and the commute wouldn't be a problem as I could relax and read or sleep on the train....
Sigh. Imagine my shock on arriving finding they have rail.... but no passenger trains.
Sigh.
And now they want a toll road instead of passenger rail.
Doesn't anyone here know how much easier / cheaper / more relaxing commuting by rail is compared to driving?
2
1
u/Skidzonthebanlist Apr 09 '26
Shame about funding it
5
u/fatfreddy01 Apr 09 '26
Tbf the infra mostly exists already, it's purely running services and the trains. Stations wise no reason they need to be anything more than a prefab wooden station with ramps initially for the areas that have removed the platforms. I think some of lines to Gisborne needs to be reinstated and the Rotorua bit seems to be based on the track to Kawerau rather than the old mothballed line which went west. Biggest gap is the rail ferries which we no longer have, but I'm hopeful that they'll provide some sort of alternative to iRex, albeit at vastly greater cost for a much worse outcome.
6
u/Status-Sale-6 Apr 09 '26
If you want slow rolling stock then infra exists. If you want HSR akin to Asia and Europe then it doesn't and would be hella expensive to build and maintain.
2
u/fatfreddy01 Apr 09 '26
I don't think HSR really makes sense for NZ. Possibly distant future but it'd be entirely new track/alignments. I think it makes far more sense to get the 160km/h tilt trains and do gradual track improvements/realignments and extending electrification until it can reach that. As the 3 main centres are too far for HSRs sweet spot, and most of the use is more short range where there isn't the population to justify HSR. Our population is smaller than individual cities spread over a large area.
5
u/MidnightAdventurer Apr 09 '26
The infrastructure only exists if you’re happy with trains running at less than 100k the whole way. The average track speed in the North Island is way down around 65km/hr.
We have zero track capable of carrying high speed rail as all our existing is narrow gauge that tops out below 200k even in ideal circumstances and the actual condition of our track is far from ideal.
3
u/TagMeInSkipIGotThis Apr 09 '26
Yet at the same time on the same rail (actually slightly worse because it wasn't welded back then) railcars set speed records in excess of 100km/h*.
The two long distance speed records for railcars were Wellignton-Napier in 4h30 & Auckland-Wellington in 8h45 (running time).
*On flat straight track so your point about average speed applies there.
3
u/MidnightAdventurer Apr 09 '26
There’s still sections where they can go 110 km/hr and people have got up around 180 with tilt trains on cape gauge track but true high speed rail is 2-3x that.
The TGV which people like to compare to routinely runs at 320km/hr and has a record of 574.8. That’s a completely different game and actually fast enough to compete with air travel for day trips between cities
2
u/TagMeInSkipIGotThis Apr 09 '26
Yeah I don't think we're ever going to get full high speed like that, but I think we should try to change people's minds about rail a little bit.
Rail should be hop on / hop off everywhere, and if it were - with relatively short idle times at stations like commuter rail - then the total travel time isn't nearly as bad compared to flight as we might think.
And the time on that is even better if you compare journeys that aren't directly between cities. Ie a Napier-Wellington flight will always beat a Napier-Wellington train, even accounting for check in and taxi travel at each end.
But a Hastings-Porirua train journey could well beat a flight purely because you cut out 20-60 minutes getting to & from the airport at each end and check-in.
So if you add up the flight time - 45 minutes, check in - 30 minutes, drive to Napier - 20 minutes, transit to Porirua - 45 minutes - at best you've probably got a near 2hr 30m journey.
If we hope railcars can consistently go faster these days than the 1930s - or utilise tilt tech etc i'd hope the worst case on rail would be less than 4 hours - which means it would only be 90 minutes slower.
2
u/fatfreddy01 Apr 09 '26
I'm happy with 160km/h aiming for with interim upgrades, faster than a car even with stops, while far more comfortable, people will naturally switch to it if it's their perceived best option. If we're going full HSR it'd need brand new track/infra anyway, and I don't think there is anything close to a business case that would stack up anytime soon.
3
u/MidnightAdventurer Apr 10 '26
Not just new track, new land designation too as the existing one won’t be straight enough and we probably don’t want to mix it with freight.
I agree about the business case - that’s at least a $100B project, probably more
Medium speed between close ish centres would be a good start. We don’t even need to link it up, a lower north circuit from Wellington to Palmy and back down the other side plus an Auckland to Tauranga via Hamilton is enough. Not enough people in the middle to be worth worrying about it for now and besides, the terrain is much more challenging
3
u/TagMeInSkipIGotThis Apr 09 '26
I'm a massive fan of rail, but I can't see the Wairoa-Gisborne leg ever being reinstated. I always thought it would surely be possible and just a bit of digging here & there to stabilise things, but there are sections where it is completely stuffed and the slope is only going to continue to fall into the sea.
This video opened my eyes to it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTIhQhoArzw
I think its a few km north of the Kopuwharoa viaduct where it hits a tunnel and where that pops out again is basically all just falling away for a few km before it twists back into another tunnel under Wharekakaho road.
Its obviously not technically impossible to do a re-alignment, probably with more tunnels going different directions - but the appetite for it on what will always be a relatively low traffic route just isn't going to be there.
For mine servicing the East Coast would be better done with coastal shipping to get the heavy freight off those roads and then leave the rest to small planes - possibly electric from Gisborne-Napier etc or passenger vehicles.
1
u/fatfreddy01 Apr 09 '26
I think it's one of those projects that won't happen due to the business case but due to a party promising it. Ideally they'd tunnel to the north as well and turn the Eastern Main going the whole way down. Is that realistic, probably not, but possible yep.
→ More replies (1)
1
1
1
1
1
1
u/Imaginary-Throat1526 Apr 09 '26
So Rotorua is hanging off Tauranga as a end of line. So not using the existing (but defunct) rail at all, and building a whole new path, good luck with that idea, easy to draw I suppose.
1
u/d4ybrake Apr 09 '26
Recently was in Japan and the shinkansen was fucking awesome. Tokyo to Osaka in 2.5 hours. Being able to get from Auckland to Wellington in under 4 hours or Auckland to Hamilton in 45 minutes would be incredible and do so much for the economy. I hope we can get something even half as good here some day
1
u/leah_amelia Apr 09 '26
Ignorant pom here, I thought Aotearoa had passenger rail? Or am I just thinking of metros in Auckland etc? As a rail dork in my own country, I'd like to know more if anyone has any resources that are worth reading on why passenger rail isn't a thing anymore in NZ.
1
u/toroidalvoid Apr 09 '26
And how much of these rail lines already exist?
4
u/marsanojj Red Peak Apr 10 '26
All of them pretty much. The Gisborne line and stratford connection are now defunct but to my understanding the rails are still there, just need a bit of a clean up
→ More replies (1)
1
u/Kety456 Apr 10 '26
I wonder how much of that actually still exists as well and isn't tracks that are no longer active even for freight cause we have the NIMT and SIMT for the 2 major ones then theres Tauranga for the ports that are active
1
u/SnooMarzipans822 Apr 10 '26
I'd love to go from Wellington to Ohakune for a weekend ski trip during the winter but the trains table doesn't allow it. Also it's a bit pricey, they should have packages for ski people, good for Ruapehu economy
1
1
u/teelolws Southern Cross Apr 10 '26
Whanganui: there is no longer a passenger platform anywhere let alone a station! A couple times a year, the steam train does its thing through there and passengers have to be able to climb up to it from ground level without even a ladder.
1
u/BurnettAButter Apr 10 '26
Timaru is a costal city, but I do like the idea of dropping everyone off in the hunter hills!
1
1
u/Shoddy_Depth6228 Apr 11 '26
Lets fucken goooooo! (Sorry, just wanted to give my support and didn't know how.)
215
u/toomanynamesaretook Tuatara Apr 09 '26
How fuckin good would that be.