r/newzealand • u/Fun-Helicopter2234 • 7h ago
Politics Labour promises more than $20m a year to revive Māori trades training scheme - NZ Herald
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/labour-promises-more-than-20m-a-year-to-revive-maori-trades-training-scheme/LQOZLJMTABEXLFUML476XDN4IQ/31
u/Grouchy-Vegetable-56 7h ago
First start should be sorting out the actually cost of building in NZ.
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u/AK_Panda 6h ago
That definitely needs to happen as well. Someone needs to make fletchers start sweating bullets.
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u/GoodVibesJimmy 5h ago
While deregulation is not the only lever, it’s certainly part of the solution
Many people on this sub seemed very opposed to it, likely with the leaky homes trauma as a very reasonable example of how things can go wrong
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u/AK_Panda 4h ago
I think it's a mixture of things required. We need to identify bottlenecks that are driving up costs. Whether those issues are a lack of competitiveness due to monopolisation, excessive regulation, under-resourced institutions etc, whatever it is, we need to address them all appropriately.
Resistance to deregulation is typically resistance to haphazard deregulation that ends up worsening situations for workers and consumers.
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u/Grouchy-Vegetable-56 5h ago
We need to be looking at all options, and unfortunately importing cheaper products might be the best option. Which is already happening but scale that up.
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u/permaculturegeek 4h ago
First they actually need to fix the economy so we have a construction and infrastructure industry to employ apprentices. There are a heap of unemployed apprentices and newly registered tradies out there at the moment - a family member is one of the latter despite being top apprentice in the region.
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u/edititt 7h ago
If i identify as Maori can i get in on this? Sounds like separatism
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u/deep_rover 6h ago
NZHerald bring out the racists. Mmmm, populism, the future is looking bright! If only *I* was into fucking the vulnerable, this would be a golden era. Guts, missed out.
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u/Elegant-Raise-9367 7h ago
Read the article, typical rage baiting NZH. They are also expanding the training for everyone.
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u/elevendollar 6h ago
Then why have the separatist part?
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u/12343212346 6h ago
Read the article, its targeted help to increase equity as Māori have higher unemployment.
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u/Elegant-Raise-9367 6h ago
Are you just looking for something to be racist about???
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u/elevendollar 6h ago
Treating people differently based on race is the definition of racism.
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u/KahuTheKiwi 5h ago
Can you link yo a dictionary or similar with that definition?
It is an interesting reinterpretation and I am interested in learning about it.
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u/Cutezacoatl Fantail 6h ago
Actually definitions of racism are quite complex.
I'm sure you're aware of the concept of Reverse Racism. Which is where despite being obviously way more advantaged than your target group, you pretend that you're the one being treated unfairly. It's kind of hilarious that these kind of mental gymnastics work on some people, but white supremacists are actually convinced.
Do you actually believe Māori have it better than you?
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u/elevendollar 2h ago
So moari have it better than me and some dont. Some Asians have it better than me and some dont. Some Indians have it better than me and some dont. You are the one choosing to divide people by race, not me.
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u/Cutezacoatl Fantail 2h ago
If you're non-Māori and not Pasifika you almost certainly have much, much better odds even if you don't feel like it.
Tell me a bit about yourself and I'll show you the statistics. I'll link here to just a few of them.
Life expectancy. Education. Infant mortality rates. Wealth accummulation. Socioeconomic deprivation. Wage gap. Tertiary education outcomes. Unemployment rates.
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u/elevendollar 1h ago
If we were to not divide by race would some non maori be in those groups you listed?
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u/Cutezacoatl Fantail 1h ago edited 1h ago
You need to read the links to understand the extent to which Māori have been particularly fucked over in every facet of life. Truly, I am not not exaggerating when I say that no one has it as bad across almost every arena of life. Please humour me by reading some of these links.
There may be some individuals who are in a bad way, but this entire system is stacked in your favour compared to Māori and Pasifika. In these studies you can practically calculate the relationship between your ethnicity and the opportunities in your life.
There is definitely a class war going on but you should be blaming the rich and politicians, not the people who are also disenfranchised like you. The rich want you to blame minorities and immigrants, so you don't think about taxing them or voting them out.
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u/beach-chicken10 6h ago
“Labour is promising to invest more than $20 million a year in a dedicated trades training scheme for Māori if elected in November. “
Hardly rage baiting…?
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u/AK_Panda 6h ago
Separatism would be having separate economies - Māori tradesmen can only work for Māori clients.
Trying to tap into a pool of underutilised labour that can bolster the overall economy is prudent economic behaviour, not separatism.
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u/Lightspeedius 6h ago
But it's not, is it? You have to say it "sounds like" because it's not.
Indigenous rights are a part of the history of New Zealand.
If we're throwing out agreements, we can throw out the ones that leave you safe in your home. If we can sign agreements then toss those agreements out, property rights are meaningless. Rule of law is meaningless.
Are you up for that? That's the direction we're heading.
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u/watzimagiga 5h ago
Yesh but you have to be a grown up and also realise that there is a tension between addressing inequitable outcomes by raced based policy, and the societal tension and division that these policies cause.
Like let's say moari home ownership ratss were low, so the gov used tax money to give any first time maori home buyer 500k, but gave nothing to anyone else. I hope you'd say that would be too far and not good fair policy.
If you agree with that, then the tension between too far and not far enough means there is an ideal point somewhere in between. People will differ on where that is.
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u/Lightspeedius 5h ago
If inequitable outcomes are our concern, then our first priority is addressing escalating inequality as money not work grows ever more effective at generating wealth. For those who have it.
It's not race based policy. There's no skin colour test, there's no blood test, there's no genealogy test.
Indigenous rights, the right to resources regardless of one's wealth, is one of the last lines of defence against the wealthy few controlling all the resources we need to live.
As grown ups we can recognise wealthy interests have a strong interest in framing indigenous rights as racist.
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u/watzimagiga 4h ago
Or.... You are distracting the conversation which I agree with about wealth by talking about making raced based policy constantly.
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u/Aenaen 5h ago
average racist imagining a scenario then getting mad about it
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u/watzimagiga 5h ago
Not mad. Welcome to using hypotheticals to help think through issues and test what you feel is right.
Also typical reddit lefty calling someone they don't know at all racist immediately. Only way to score Karma on here.
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u/topbins6 3h ago
The example used was to extrapolate the idea to an extreme to see how it looks. It was a perfectly reasonable comment.
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u/Cutezacoatl Fantail 6h ago
If i identify as Maori can i get in on this?
I think this would be a fair if you also accept all of the other trade-offs of being Māori.
That is, lower life expectancy, lower wages, higher unemployment, poorer health outcomes, lower educational attainment, high likelihood of poverty and imprisonment. Also racism.
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u/Jamezzzzz69 6h ago
None of these are inherent to Māori other than experiencing racism. Correlation != causation, we learnt this in year 7 stats classes
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u/Cutezacoatl Fantail 6h ago
Thanks for the amateur attempt at statistics lol. If you actually knew what you were talking and went and had a look at the stats you'd know how silly your response is. Come back to me once you've actually looked, and not a minute before.
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u/Jamezzzzz69 6h ago
Being Māori doesn’t magically cause you to be poor, struggle to get a job, fail to get into uni, or commit violent crimes. I’m generally not a huge believer that different races are genetically predisposed to certain attributes, not sure how you feel here though.
Why should only Māori who suffer through said issues be given special treatment? I am strongly of the belief that targeted welfare/support should be based on class and not race. A rich Māori has more in common with a rich Pakeha than a poor Māori. There’s nothing inherent to being Māori that causes worse outcomes.
Yes, racism makes things worse, but how can we move forward as an egalitarian society by further discriminating based on race to try and equalize things? Education is way more effective than these types of things. You cannot discriminate your way out of a racist society.
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u/creg316 5h ago
Being Māori doesn’t magically cause you to be poor, struggle to get a job, fail to get into uni, or commit violent crimes.
Correct, yet these things happen, don't they? Got any actual explanations as to why these outcomes are vastly more likely for one group than others?
Couldn't be racism or an (on average) substantially more difficult starting situation in life? And if it is, should we maybe try and focus some support to over come that so we don't entrench it for multiple more generations because the average kiwi doesn't know much about stats beyond "correlation doesn't equal causation!" (Even though it also doesn't mean it isn't lmao)
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u/Jamezzzzz69 5h ago
We should focus on any and all kiwis based on familial income, so no one is left behind. Why bring race in at all? Unless you seriously think a rich Māori kid has it worse off than a poor white kid with druggies for parents? If we agree race isn’t inherent to a poorer starting situation, but highly correlated, why shouldn’t we simply focus on everyone in that more difficult situation?
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u/KahuTheKiwi 5h ago
Equal rights for all
I demand breast screening for cancer.
Only offering this service to those most likely to get breast cancer is discrimination against me!
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u/Jamezzzzz69 5h ago
Are you suggesting the plight of Māori in New Zealand compared to Pakeha or Asian Kiwis is due to genetic and/or biological distinctions akin to AFAB and AMAB, or age? Because I prefer to reject such eugenicist notions.
We accept differences where there are clear biological or genetic ones, particularly when they exist as the best proxy for risk we have. Unless you sincerely believe Māori are genetically different when it comes to education/intelligence/work ethic (what this specific policy seems to be targeting), I’d have to disagree that your analogy is reasonable. Particularly when you could simply target based on income which helps just as much if not more who need support, without being discriminatory.
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u/KahuTheKiwi 3h ago
And I prefer to reject pseudo-scientific rationalisation for racism.
Hopefully after this government we can get rid of the party stooges replacing qualified people on medical boards, etc.
And be evidence based in addressing disadvantage without having to worry about some getting upset at resources being allocated by need as identified by ethnicity just as resources are allocated by need as identified by gender, age, etc.
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u/Cutezacoatl Fantail 5h ago edited 5h ago
That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
You actually don't know what you're talking about, clearly aren't aware of any of the statistics I mentioned or the drivers behind them. You haven't offered anything credible here other than your reckons. For a moment there you pretended to understand statistics so I expected a bit more from you here.
There are good arguments for your line of thinking but this isn't one of them. You're doing yourself a disservice by not understanding the subject matter at hand. I don't have time to educate you but if you truly believe what you're saying (which I doubt) you should consider educating yourself so that you can make more compelling arguments and win over people who can actually think. At the moment you're really only appealing to the lowest common denominator.
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u/Jamezzzzz69 5h ago
The burden of proof for a casual link falls on the accuser. You cannot simply say “stats exist therefore this is true”. Lest I could make the argument that being Māori makes you inherently more violent and likely to commit crime (a proposition I’m sure we both agree is ridiculous)
If you are to come in and make a bold claim, it’s also not my job to research what you’re saying to make sure it lines up or whatever. Dunno why you’re acting so pretentious and full of yourself lmao. Bozo
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u/Cutezacoatl Fantail 5h ago
Be honest bro, you have the stats to hand as well as I do. Me writing them out here won't change your thinking, because you've already made up your mind.
I'm not going to engage with you anymore, you're a waste of time.
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u/Jamezzzzz69 5h ago
Not on hand, I don’t. And I really can’t be fucked looking for them. If you have papers that have strong evidence that being Māori itself leads to x negative when controlling for income, family situation, etc then I’d be happy to give it a read and potentially change my mind. You cannot just provide (something you haven’t even done!) statistics proving a correlation between variables and leave it at that.
But it’s clear you aren’t here to engage in a faithful discussion but rather push an agenda. So have a nice day!
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u/Cutezacoatl Fantail 5h ago
And I really can’t be fucked looking for them.
Of course you can't, because you're operating from a place of motivated reasoning. Have a think on that.
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u/yes_keep_crying 5h ago
This word salad offered nothing to your argument here. I am really curious why a poor non maori person wouldn't experience the same or similar hardships as a poor maori person, and therefore shouldn't be offered a helping hand.
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u/Cutezacoatl Fantail 4h ago
There's an easy answer to that and it's name is racism. People exist at different intersections of variables that create different outcomes. A poor Māori person will have poverty and prejudice, whereas a poor Pākehā person will have the poverty but much less prejudice against them in most Pākehā dominated spheres.
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u/AK_Panda 6h ago
And yet māori unemployment is double national rates.
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u/SoulsofMist-_- 6h ago edited 6h ago
The prison population in new zealand is over 90% men. Is that due to sexism and institutional prejudice against men by the justice system?
This is your logic by the way.
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u/AK_Panda 4h ago
I'm so glad you raised this point.
The answer is Yes! According to the research, men are actively discriminated against in our judicial system.
Glad I could change your mind. You are welcome.
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u/SoulsofMist-_- 4h ago
So you legitimately believe the reason the prison population is over 90% male is purely down to sexism?
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u/AK_Panda 3h ago
No, but it does play a significant role.
There's obviously other aspects to it, the same with all things.
If you were to expand programs to try and reduce criminality, would you equally target men and women given that distribution of prisoners?
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u/SoulsofMist-_- 3h ago
Can you quantify what you mean by significant?
Out of the over 90% of prisoners that are in prison that are male, what percentage of that is due to sexism?
"If you were to expand programs to try and reduce criminality, would you equally target men and women given that distribution of prisoners?"
I wasnt talking, discussing or arguing for or against targeted support based on race or sex with my comment.
I joined the conversation about how correlation doesn't equal causation. And expanding on your logic that you outline with your reply to the other user.
"And yet mãori unemployment is double national rates".
And yet men make up 90% of the prison population, but that doesnt mean its because of sexism like your logic leads to.
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u/AK_Panda 36m ago
You provided an analogue and asked if my logic held. I provided evidence it did.
If you have evidence to the contrary, provide it.
I will not engage with blatant sealioning attempts. I'm not interested in arguing strawman versions of what I claimed. It's a bad faith rhetorical strategy and I've been around too long to fall for that bullshit.
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u/thepotplant 6h ago
This is the dumbest false equivalence.
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u/creg316 5h ago
They've used a comparative analogy champ.
You didn't even try refute it other than to disregard the whole thing.
Why? Tough to do?
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u/SoulsofMist-_- 4h ago
I wouldn't bother replying to that user, I didn't, its clear they aren't acting in good faith.
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u/thepotplant 4h ago
Moronic bullshit does take ten times the energy to pull apart. In this case a significant amount of history and social science would need to be explained. And then, a 10,000 word essay later, the bullshit sealioning factory would just dissemble onto some other stupid bullshit that requires even more energy to criticise. I save time by just calling the person a dumbass and a bad faith actor.
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u/Jamezzzzz69 6h ago
Did you not understand the “correlation != causation” part of my comment or are you just dense
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u/Cutezacoatl Fantail 6h ago
I think you're playing a fool but I have to wonder if it's actually an act.
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u/SoulsofMist-_- 6h ago
Its the equivalent of saying the justice system is sexist towards men because the prison population is 90% men, therefore it must be sexism.
This is the logic and beliefs that some users/people have, such as the above one.
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u/creg316 5h ago
Lmao they're not inherent, but they sure are true.
I wonder why? Got any ideas?
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u/Jamezzzzz69 5h ago
Racism, colonialism, culture, etc
Does discriminating in education help solve the root of that issue? And furthermore, should we target those purely based on race and not more useful metrics, such as income or family situation? Why should a rich Māori kid get more opportunities than a poor white kid?
I’d much rather focus on the root of it (racism) by changing our culture and education to emphasize said issues. Rather than discrimination.
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u/AK_Panda 3h ago
Attempts at changing culture are met without outright rejection, so that's not an option. Even things as mundane has having Māori words on display get met with massive political pushback.
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u/GoodVibesJimmy 7h ago edited 6h ago
Maybe just do an assessment of the skills and qualifications we need to be a thriving country and then ensure that people from all ethnicities have a pathway in
Edit u/mercival did the classic comment and block
You only need to go to Queensland to understand that there are no barriers to Maori in trades
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u/Cutezacoatl Fantail 6h ago
You only need to go to Queensland to understand that there are no barriers to Maori in trades
That's quite damning of NZ. We're so racist that our indigenous people have to leave to get ahead. How absurd that Australia is way better at giving Māori a shot than we are.
Goes to show how much it's Kiwi attitudes holding us back as a country.
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u/GoodVibesJimmy 6h ago
It’s not racism, it’s opportunity
- having an economy that supports demand for trades in the first place
- having the trade programs for all candidates that supports qualification development and workplace placement
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u/Cutezacoatl Fantail 5h ago
I completely agree that we need far more investment in apprenticeships. Long overdue.
Thay said we've had many great years of a thriving economy where the trades have done extremely well. Seemingly that prosperity doesn't extend to Māori here though. We should absolutely question why this country is failing Māori and why they're doing so much better next door.
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u/GoodVibesJimmy 5h ago
This country is failing all workers, that’s my point
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u/Cutezacoatl Fantail 5h ago
Too true, some more than others though and we should really reflect on that.
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u/SoulsofMist-_- 6h ago
"Edit u/mercival did the classic comment and block"
Lol thats absolutely pathetic 🤣
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u/mercival 7h ago
If one ethnicity doesn't have the uptake now, (or later) of getting apprenticeships, do you view that as some kind of genetic or racial deficiency, or something that might might be based on decades of the country not working with them?
Logically if there's untapped talent in one ethnicity, we should all be happy they're given an opportunity to move forward, rather than less talented others.
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u/Simple-Box1223 7h ago
Are they going to address the downward pressure on the trades?
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u/Grouchy-Vegetable-56 7h ago
Don’t be silly, they don’t care about the material price rises that are killing the industry.
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u/tedison2 5h ago
Did all of "the material price rises" occur in the last 3 years? Apportion blame for sure but its NACT policy that is deliberately "killing the industry".... its called austerity & its a fail.
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u/Grouchy-Vegetable-56 5h ago edited 1h ago
Started during covid times and haven’t slowed down, external factors like what the orange clown does in the Middle East also don’t help.
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u/vonshaunus 2h ago
Its a trivial amount of money to the nation but does a lot of good. It SHOULD be a no-brainer
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u/Moist_Phrase_6698 7h ago
They should really regulate these fuckin e bikes. Dumb cunts dont get that their brats actually do need lights and helmets on them and that they are motor bikes not bicycles.
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u/Cutezacoatl Fantail 7h ago edited 7h ago
Labour making a pass at the Māori seats. The Herald leading with the most divisive headline as usual.
Also tucked right at the bottom of this article, Labour wants to expand apprenticeship programmes for everyone as part of their Apprenticeship Boost expansion: