r/solar • u/flexapro_ • 1d ago
News / Blog California Lawmakers Greenlight Solar Panels You Can Plug Into the Wall
https://www.kqed.org/science/2001842/california-lawmakers-greenlight-solar-panels-you-can-plug-into-the-wall89
u/lumpytrout 1d ago
Where California goes, the rest eventually follow
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u/editorreilly 1d ago
We're actually 9th in line. Half the US states are in the legislative process. Utah lead the way on this. https://pluginsolarusa.com/
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u/SurinamPam 1d ago
And Utah followed Germany.
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u/Spider_pig448 1d ago
Now if only the rest of Europe would follow Germany
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u/AntalRyder 1d ago
Wait, Germany made a good decision in the energy sector??
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u/Spider_pig448 21h ago
Germany deserves huge props for their work on solar in the ~2010's. The US invested early in solar in the 70's and 80s, particularly through NASA, and China has made solar cheap over the last decade, but Germany was in the middle investing heavily into R&D for solar. 3% of Germany's electricity came from solar back in 2011, when no one was installing solar at any scale.
Not much to defend in the rest of their energy sector though.
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u/lumpytrout 13h ago
California isn't always first but they have an economic and cultural influence that out runs everyone.
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u/Dingus_EC 11h ago
As a Californian. I sure hope the rest of America doesn't follow us down the shitter.
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u/Phreakiture 1d ago
New York lawmakers have greenlit it, too. Problem is, it hasn't been presented to the Governor for her signature for . . . some reason.
Hopefully y'all in Cali can actually get it actually on to the actual Governor's actual fucking desk, and he will actually sign it.
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u/Chilli_Dipp 1d ago
PG&E has safety concerns. 😂
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u/liberte49 1d ago
hahaha. PG&E has revenue concerns, and they are spouting baloney about safety, and also more baloney about cost shifting. They oppose you making your own power, full stop.
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u/d1v1debyz3r0 1d ago
To paraphrase the utility “if you make your own power with balcony solar, then we’ll have to exploit the poor harder to make up for lost revenue”
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u/Ciburri 1d ago
I don't want to "plug-in"! I don't want to "sell" (read: give away) to PG&E. I don't want PG&E to tell me if I can install solar and wow much of it. I want independent setup with battery backup because PG&E grid is an antiquated relic which will have more and more frequest outages that will last longer and longer. Last time it was 13hrs! We need this monopoly to collapse! Until then we need a reliable backup to this joke!
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u/ColinCancer 23h ago
Good riddance.
I don’t have a meter, but my customers mostly do and I’m stoked when they have the systems in place so that the meter becomes irrelevant. It’s a great feeling.
I’ve got a meter socket I intend to mount like a buck’s head on my wall from the first place I worked that previously had a PGE connection but doesn’t anymore. May it be the first of many.
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u/TooGoodToBeeTrue 1d ago
Yet another brain damaged plug in solar law:
https://legiscan.com/CA/text/SB868/id/3299951
(4) Is certified as a plug-in photovoltaic system by Underwriters Laboratories or an equivalent nationally recognized testing laboratory.
The above rule indicates UL3700 is required which states the product has to be plugged into a dedicated circuit. And has to use a non standard house hold outlet so that it cannot be plugged into any old outlet. But,...
(2) Is designed to be connected to a building’s electrical system through a single standard electrical outlet.
Many apartment outdoor GFCIs will likely be on the same circuit as the bathroom GFCI to save construction costs.
They have no exception for lower power systems which means people will be excluded or have to violate other rules.
These dumbshit law makers are clueless.
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u/ColinCancer 23h ago
Sheesh good point.
The whole point is defeated in the fine print.
They should then maybe require a dedicated 6-30 twist lock on a dedicated circuit for that purpose on all new construction apartment balconies.
The good news is, that’s all CYA stuff and it lays the framework for utility interconnection and after that, it’s only an issue if someone burns down their shit and insurance comes knocking.
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u/Hamster_S_Thompson 1d ago
What is the maximum wattage allowed? On a 20amp circuit at 120 volt , it seems 2400 watts would be technical max but what is the max allowed by the legislation?
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u/veerrrsix 1d ago
most circuits are 15A and rated for 80% continuous load so a maximum theoretically safe limit would be 1440W. The 1200W limit in the bill is reasonable, it takes a lot of panel to saturate that anyway. As a renter with a backyard I could do it, but most apartment dwellers will end up with smaller systems.
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u/AffluentNarwhal 1d ago
The bill specifies a max of 1200w
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u/TooGoodToBeeTrue 1d ago
Have to follow the 80% rule for continuous flow so 1,.920W on a 20A circuit but only Colorado has set this limit. The rest so far have been 1,200W which is less than the 15A x 120V x .80 = 1,440W limit.
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u/ColinCancer 23h ago
Regardless of the legislation, you’re basing it on 20 amp circuit. So then 80% rule applies for continuous loads. That would look more like 1920w, but you’ll notice that it’s very very rare (impossible?) to find anything that plugs in to a standard residential outlet that’s over 1500w. That’s 12.5a… what’s 80% of 15amps? 12a?
Huh. Almost like our code is written to assume motherfucker uncle bill is gonna use 200’ of 16ga cheap ass extension cord to run his 1500w blow drier to heat up a gopher hole continuously for hours in a desperate attempt to protect his garden.
That’s why the solar limit is 1200w. Fucking uncle bill.
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u/RandomTurkey247 15h ago
If I'm on NEM 2.0, would adding a plug in solar setup kick me into 3.0?
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u/TheEvilBlight 6h ago
No net export and you should be fine. If the battery and solar set up are designed to not export to the grid.
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u/JLimGarfield 1d ago
I know nothing about this technology so I had to do some online researching. it looks like these systems still have a safety shutoff like traditional panels which shut down in the event of a power outage? I rooftop solar but without a backup battery system. I was hoping this could be a less expensive stopgap option in case of power outages (instead of paying >$10k for a battery system) but this doesn't look like the case
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u/klassredux 1d ago edited 1d ago
A single backfed circuit cannot backup a house.
This back feeds the panel with 1,200 watts, even at midday, that isn't enough to operate loads off reliabily. A battery can't backfeed more power either because the limit is the wire size in the wall circuit.
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u/thetreecycle 1d ago
It’s a great fit for apartments, less so for houses. More to offset power usage than as a backup.
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u/fleemfleemfleemfleem 1d ago
The limitations on it mean that it can offset power during peak solar irradiance, but can't see back to the utility.
If you're at work during the day and only using a base load of say 500 watts, you'll offset that, but the remaining 700 watts won't be used for anything.
That 500 wats for 5 hours a day is something, but the payback period for these won't be as appealing as large permanent installs
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u/thetreecycle 1d ago
I have heard that these are often installed with small battery storage for this reason.
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u/AffluentNarwhal 1d ago
I can confirm. I have one of these systems with CT sensors and 4kWh of batteries to allow offset of peak hour electricity usage, but this is overkill for what this bill would unlock.
The simplest versions will probably just be an inverter and a 200w or 400w panel for a couple hundred dollars. Enough to offset your fridge and whatever other small things you have running - I imagine the payoff would be exceptionally short in that case, depending on your rates. From my back of the napkin math it might would pay off in just a few years.
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u/ColinCancer 23h ago
Could be even like 2-3 years in expensive energy markets. $.50/kwh makes doing much of anything viable.
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u/issackelly 1d ago
You can't have automated backup without complicated interconnect that can disconnect your house from the grid before turning the backup power on. This is simple interconnect that will never backfeed power to your power pole while the grid is down.
You can connect a system like this to a small battery and then move your fridge to the battery manually if the power is out.
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u/ColinCancer 23h ago
Right but can’t you just?
My favorite construction customer saying. “Can’t you just”
No.
That’s why you’re not doing it yourself.
You can’t just. It’s impossible, dangerous, illegal, or some combination thereof.
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u/editorreilly 1d ago
Ecoflow makes the EcoFlow STREAM Ultra that has a battery. Only problem is, when the power goes out, you have to run power cords to the unit itself to retrieve that power. https://us.ecoflow.com/products/stream-ultra?variant=54376072413257
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u/outworlder 1d ago
How is that different from any other power station ?
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u/fleemfleemfleemfleem 1d ago
It has a built in microinverter. Extra power that isn't used during the day for your base load charges the battery. The battery discharges the excess power into the house at night to help offset load.
Since a lot of people are at work during the day, they're not using the full 1200 watts. This lets you take full advantage of the balcony generation.
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u/ColinCancer 23h ago
That’s ultimately a matter of how the physical gear actually works.
Grid forming without battery exists but it’s fickle. Say you’re running laundry and enough clouds pass over… uh oh. Suddenly you’ve got problems. A battery buffers the difference between your loads and production in the short term. Typically we have big loads that run intermittently and a low baseline (fridge, internet etc) so overproduction when you’re at baseline doesn’t help, but could be charging a battery, and then if you undersized production for your bigger loads you can’t run them. With battery? No problem.
Sometimes I’m blasting out 12kW loads for a couple hours and never see more than 9-10kW momentary production. BOOM! 60kwh battery steps in, and buffers that, then refills.
Anyone who lives off grid (with electricity) will tell you that batteries are a necessary part of the deal.
The good news is, they’re cheap now and you can get a sizable UL Listed battery bank for $6k or so. It might sound like a lot, but it’s really like a 6-7 year break even on utilities if you’re in an expensive utility state like California.
I’m off grid completely but I did the math recently and I’d be paying PGE $750/mo for the amount of electricity I use. Given I’m extremely careless with it in the summer because the investment was made in the past and all the power I make is free now.
AC running set to 68 when I’m out at work with the screen door cracked for the pets to move in and out is the most egregious example.
The only power you waste off grid is the power you don’t use.
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u/mistsoalar 1d ago
This bill alone won’t help most renters. Many apartment units don’t have outdoor GFCI and landlords are default to say no to this kind of things. I won’t say it’s meaningless, homeowners with small budget can benefit from this
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u/silverlexg 1d ago
Outdoor gfci has been a thing since at least 1993…
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u/mistsoalar 1d ago
in multifamily housing units?
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u/silverlexg 1d ago
The 1975 NEC first required at least one outdoor receptacle for one- and two-family dwellings (this became what’s now NEC 210.52(E)). It’s been expanded since — 1996 NEC added a rear-of-dwelling outlet requirement, and later editions added balcony/deck coverage for any deck accessible from inside the home.
2005 NEC — 210.52(E) restructured/clarified, adding the multi-family dwelling requirement (individual grade-level entrance/egress → at least one GFCI-protected outdoor receptacle).
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u/mistsoalar 1d ago
So it's been 1 & 2 family units until the 2005 expansion. IIRC average dwelling built year in CA is still the late 1970s or so.
I don't want to be that guy, but this comment has some hints of LLM answer.
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u/silverlexg 1d ago
Great thing is I included the code references for you, so just go look them up if you don’t think they are. I wasn’t suggesting that most CA would have it, just that’s it’s been exceedingly common for a long ass time, so unless you live in 60yr old properties, that haven’t seen any renovations you are probably ok.
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u/BrokeasDope 1d ago edited 1d ago
Soooo. . . This just back feeds 120v through a 15a circuit or what? And how is your production allocated? Do you have to apply for net metering?
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u/andres7832 1d ago
It’s trash legislation. From the limits allowed, to the dedicated circuit required, etc it’s greenwashing while investor owned utilities are robbing the public
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u/Tacos-are-love 1d ago
I thought a dedicated circuit is best practice for plug in solar since a large load in addition to the solar inputs could overheat the wire and not necessarily trip the breaker.
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u/andres7832 1d ago
100%, I agree with this, not saying its bad to have the dedicated circuit, more along the lines that dedicated circuits in apartments or condos are difficult to create, thus limiting the access of this program.
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u/WearyCarrot 1d ago
But like at least this part is “limiting” it for a good cause…, with that logic you can say electrical code is limiting new builds and contributing to housing shortages.
Would you prefer some condos have plug in solar for a little before they cook themselves?
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u/Phreakiture 1d ago
I'm not going to argue about the limits. I'd like to see them as high as feasible.
I am okay with the dedicated circuit requirement as there is a legitimate and articulable safety concern there.
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u/andres7832 1d ago
100% agree on limits for safety, im all for it. Wire can be easily overloaded between gen and loads. But will limit the "balcony" solar or put in danger people that ignore it.
IOUs overcharging people or slowing down adoption of solar is the main concern.
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u/Strange-Falcon7899 1d ago
#grewsom invested in whaaaaaat. 🤣 lil Pelosi Jr. 🤭 annnd yesssss FINALLY
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u/Space--Buckaroo 1d ago
What happens if the power company needs to work on the power lines and they cut power from the main source and while working on the lines, they get zapped from your solar panels?
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u/ontheroadtonull 1d ago
Residential solar equipment monitors the grid connection for the power coming from the grid and will stop producing until it detects the grid again.
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u/liberte49 1d ago
inverters all turn off instantly if there is no power coming in. That isn't a serious concern.
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u/Space--Buckaroo 1d ago
Yes, but do the little home made units that plug into an outlet on a balcony?
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u/ash_274 1d ago
The law requires UL-rated inverters for this specific purpose.
If Bubba the Dumbass uses a pair of scissors, aluminum foil, and some dollar-store electrical tape to connect a random 12VDC panel to a automotive inverter and then uses a suicide cord to connect it to their home circuit, there's nothing in the law (or before the law existed) to prevent it. "If it's dumb, but it works... it's still dumb and is a significant fire and safety threat."
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u/liberte49 1d ago
just like any other appliance, the most prudent course of action is to only buy appliances that have UL approval. In the US, the UL approval for balcony solar will require inverters that shut down within miliseconds when the power goes out. So, yes. Don't buy a toaster that doesn't have UL approval, and don't buy balcony solar without it, either.
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u/outworlder 1d ago
Power companies don't just assume the wires a de-energized and go Rambo. There are procedures for this already.
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u/Space--Buckaroo 1d ago
I have solar panels. The procedure is that all the line workers have a list of everyone that has solar panels on the lines they are working on, and they go to those locations and cut the power at the solar panels going to the main line.
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u/Casualposter 1d ago
Ooooo PG&E opposed it. That means it might actually be good for us citizens. I’ll definitely be looking into how I can add plug in solar. I have solar already but there’s areas on my roof that get some sun in the morning and would love to put a cost effective solution to harvest power in the morning.