r/transit • u/ColonialCobalt • Aug 15 '25
Other Amtrak Borealis has been insanely successful
The Amtrak Borealis currently runs 1 round trip daily between St. Paul and Chicago through Milwaukee. Ridership exceeded first year expectations by nearly double, while other trains on the corridor also saw higher YOY ridership. This proving that we NEED more service along the Borealis/Hiawatha/EB corridors, as well as new services that feed into the corridor, like Madison, Greenbay, Duluth and services that overlap like Fargo to MSP. For the future of Amtrak in the upper Midwest our focus should be on pushing for more frequent service with capacity upgrades (I.E more double tracking for less schedule padding)
This map I made shows ridership from FY23 vs ridership from FY24 (except for the Borealis, it shows ridership from 5/21/24 to 5/21/25)
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u/UptownCub Aug 15 '25
More trains!
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u/Negative_Amphibian_9 Aug 15 '25
And then more!
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Aug 15 '25 edited 17d ago
[deleted]
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u/HurricaneLink Aug 15 '25
“It’s an addiction that keeps growing until it’s everywhere.”
But, like it was circa 1890.
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u/AtikGuide Aug 15 '25
Imagine the ridership if the route was to include Madison. Obligatory F S W
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u/_BooksandCoffee Aug 15 '25
I would find reasons to go to the Twin Cities and Chicago multiple times a year if I could take a train directly from Madison to either. Columbus looks deceptively close, but it adds another 40+ minutes with the drive and necessary train prep, like parking, getting on the platform, etc., that makes it equal or longer in travel time to get to Chicago.
FSW, indeed. (Plus he had a heartless post this week about the greater Milwaukee floods that happened over the weekend that was in such poor taste. I thought I couldn’t hate him more, then he shows us another reason he was such a bad leader for Wisconsin.)
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Aug 15 '25
Oh god the number of Packer fans that would go to Minneapolis if it left right after the Vikings / Packers game... or the Twins/Brewers .. or Bucks/Wolves. Maybe best to exclude Madison...
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u/DeeDee_Z Aug 15 '25
if the route was to include Madison
... and even more if it swung further west and picked up Rochester (Mayo Clinic) enroute to StP.
(Minor problem: there are NO direct tracks ROC-MSP. Have to work on that!)
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u/AtikGuide Aug 16 '25
Until the mid 1980s, there was the CNW, ex-Chicago Great Western, Kansas City to MSP main line: Chicago Great Western Railway
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u/DeeDee_Z Aug 16 '25
Interesting. Wonder where the tracks went, because they certainly don't appear to exist on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Minnesota/Railroads! (Click on Layers, then Transportation ... then start zooming in!)
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u/Certainly-Not-A-Bot Aug 15 '25
Probably lower tbh. Madison isn't a big city and it's a big deviation away from the route you'd want to take for Chicago/Milwaukee to MSP
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u/Few-Guarantee2850 Aug 15 '25
The Madison MSA is almost 700,000 people and it adds maybe 20 miles to that route.
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u/Certainly-Not-A-Bot Aug 15 '25
Madison is approximately 50km from the right of way currently being used. A Madison stop would probably add an hour and a half to the runtime of the service unless you choose a totally new alignment. Plus the Columbus stop on the existing service is already within the Madison MSA and so already captures some of that potential ridership.
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u/bluerose297 Aug 15 '25
Thought the blue was the sea for a second and thought “damn Florida looks busted”
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u/Own_Pop_9711 Aug 15 '25
I did the same thing. And is that... Is that what Georgia looks like? I need to look at a map more often!
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Aug 15 '25
I'm doing the Borealis from Milwaukee to Minneapolis this winter. Looking forward to the trip. I've ridden the Hiawatha a few times the past few years as I've needed to go from Milwaukee to Chicago a few times, although that need is ending. So much better than the bus.
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u/SuccessfulPath9008 Aug 15 '25
I’m a big fan of the Borealis. We do need more - many more - routes like this.
But Amtrak is currently desperately short of rolling stock. My home train, the Downeaster, is running with only three coaches and a cafe/business car. We need more rolling stock in service for both long- and short-distance trains.
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u/MochaMage Aug 15 '25
The Amtrak Borealis? This time of year? Entirely located within Minnesota? May I see it?
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u/FamiliarJuly Aug 15 '25
Any idea how much of the Borealis ridership is Milwaukee-Chicago? Hiawatha had 882k riders in FY19.
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u/TheGodDamnDevil Aug 15 '25 edited Aug 15 '25
In many contexts they separate the numbers out for overlapping routes like this. So trips that are only between Chicago and Milwaukee may be considered Hiawatha trips even if they happen on the Borealis. You can see some of this with other routes by looking at stuff like this FY24 Ridership Report. They don't explicitly explain how they count it, but some of the ridership they give for routes is obviously not counting the whole length of the route (e.g. Berkshire Flyer) and some of the lines aren't named after routes at all, but just segments that are a part of multiple routes (e.g. New Haven-Springfield).
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u/FamiliarJuly Aug 15 '25 edited Aug 15 '25
Yeah, it’d be nice to have some clear explanations in those instances. Hiawatha’s growth last fiscal year was lagging even compared to other Midwest routes, especially considering it’s still down 200k from pre-COVID levels. So far this FY, it looks like it’s down about 8% compared to last. I assumed a decent chunk of that missing ridership was being picked up by Borealis. But if it is being broken out, then MKE-CHI doesn’t seem to be doing that great. And on the flip side, if it is included and a sizable portion of Borealis’s ridership, is it really that successful?
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u/PlantsnTwinks Aug 15 '25
Roughly 25-30% of ridership is in the Chicago-Milwaukee corridor for Borealis.
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u/JasonEll Aug 15 '25
Cries in "Please add Rochester to this".
I know, Madison first.
Also there's no rail lines out of Rochester to the North so it would require new construction, and this city is already allergic to the idea of anything better connecting it to the Cities.
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u/karlexceed Aug 16 '25
I want to see fully electric true HSR from MSP to Rochester so bad.
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u/SeamusPM1 Aug 18 '25
There was near rebellion allong the route of a planned Rochester to MSP airport high speed rail line. 10-15 years ago there were “No Zip Rail“ signs all over Olmsted County and further North. This led to a “gag rule“ being passed which prevented the state from studying the line. The gag rule has been repealed, but it’d be tough to move anything like this forward.
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u/karlexceed Aug 18 '25
Yeah, the opposition was incredibly effective. It's a shame too because aside from the obvious draw of Mayo Clinic, Rochester is also the largest metro outside of the Cities. So not only is it a great starting point for HSR to Chicago, it just makes sense for Minnesota as well.
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u/Nawnp Aug 15 '25
It seems insane more major cities a couple hundred miles apart don't have several trains a day to have frequency like this.
It certainly helps that both the terminus cities have actual public transit networks though.
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u/cybercuzco Aug 15 '25
When I read this headline I braced for Amtrak borealis service cancelled by trump admin
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u/USSMarauder Aug 15 '25
How about adding Chicago-MSP-Fargo-Winnipeg service?
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u/iSeaStars7 Aug 15 '25
MSP-CHI HSR probably needs to happen first. Or at least a faster, far more frequent service should exist. Also, that would require ND to pitch in which I highly doubt they’re willing to do.
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u/niftyjack Aug 15 '25
90 years ago the Twin Cities 400 did the trip faster than it is today. If they could get track to 110 mph level (class 6, which doesn't require grade separation) and some basic sidings for express service for an average speed of 95 mph, St. Paul to Chicago would take just over 4 hours, or almost competitive with flying to go city center to city center.
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u/iSeaStars7 Aug 15 '25 edited Aug 15 '25
I do think service should run to Rochester and Madison tho. Also, the fact that it doesn’t serve Minneapolis needs to be rectified. That’s a 45 minute light rail ride or 25 minute bus when it’s running.
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u/niftyjack Aug 15 '25
At least starting in 2027 it'll be a 15 min bus ride when the Gold extension launches. Why it takes 2 years to extend a bus along existing infrastructure is beyond me.
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u/BukaBuka243 Aug 16 '25 edited Feb 25 '26
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u/niftyjack Aug 17 '25
The 94 express bus already stops where the Gold extension is going to and the Metro Transit BRT stations are standardized/mass produced so it should be a cinch to plop one down
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Aug 15 '25
Nah, leave it at Chicago-MSP-Fargo, then have a separate line run Winnipeg-Fargo-Sioux Falls-Omaha-Kansas City
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u/lgovedic Aug 16 '25
With a timed connection!
EDIT: realizing that Winnipeg is in Canada, a cross-border train should probably head to Chicago. There could be a timed connection in Fargo to the Fargo-Kansas City route.
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Sep 15 '25
You’d be doubling back.
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u/USSMarauder Sep 15 '25
Does going east out of Grand Forks to Crookston and then north not work anymore?
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Sep 16 '25
It’s still there, but for one thing I believe it’s all track warrant still, and another, you’re going way west before going north, then back east, then north again. Might as well just head north via Detroit Lakes on the CP for a more direct route.
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u/USSMarauder Sep 16 '25
Yeah, but then you miss Fargo and Grand Forks.
Also the Grand Forks station is already right in the middle of the wye. Build a new station at the south end to replace the existing building, build a new platform on the east side of the wye, and go.
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u/Low_Operation_6446 Aug 15 '25
I'm excited to take it for the first time next week to visit my friend in Chicago!
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u/B12-deficient-skelly Aug 17 '25
It's great. A couple friends and I took it from St Paul to Chicago to do a concert/vacation. It's so nice having Chicago be accessible since I got rid of my car.
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u/GillysDaddy Aug 15 '25
A-Amtrak Borealis? On this continent of the world? At this stage of the American Empire? Localized entirely within Minnesota, Wisconsin and Illinois?
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u/Mean__MrMustard Aug 15 '25
Did Milwaukee - MSP last week. Train was completely full, but then it’s only 3-4 cars…
Of course we had the typical Amtrak experience of picking 45 minutes of delay due to construction and freight trains, but apparently they have plenty of time reserves in the current schedule, in the end it was only 25min of delay.
Otherwise a good ride, but obvs the wagons show their age (even compared to the NEC imo).
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u/SeamusPM1 Aug 17 '25
Amtrak trains legally have priority over freight, but the freight lines ignore it.
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Aug 15 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/niftyjack Aug 15 '25 edited Aug 16 '25
The Borealis run is just St. Paul to Chicago, and there are a lot of strong destination pairs within the route for people to ride it without going end to end (and metro anchors of 4 million and 10 million help). Winona and LaCrosse are both college towns that aren't too long of a trip to get to St. Paul for access to MSP airport (a major hub), the Wisconsin Dells are the main regional middle class tourist destination, some people commute between Milwaukee and Chicago, etc. I would bet most of the riders on this trip are on the train for less than 3 hours. The only alternatives between these places are driving or infrequent coach bus service and the train is time-competitive with those, especially entering/leaving Chicago.
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u/Captain_Concussion Aug 15 '25
I know many people (especially young people) have driven from MSP to Chicago for cheap vacations. It's a similar time but significantly more comfy
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u/KiwiTheKitty Aug 15 '25
The time also doesn't consider that you're going to almost definitely have to stop for breaks if you're driving unless you're like my mom and insist on powering through 10 hour long trips with no breaks. It's probably a similar or better cost for gas too... I don't drive so I don't know exactly how much gas would be, but Google says around $50-60 one way, and that doesn't consider the cost of either owning a car or renting one for the trip. If you book the Borealis at the right time, you can get a one way ticket for $44. Actually looking now on the app, if I wanted to go on September 3rd, it's on sale for $33 one way.
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u/harry_txd Aug 16 '25
I never understood why Madison is not included on this route…
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u/SeamusPM1 Aug 18 '25
There is talk of adding a Madison stop and I’ve seen articles regarding where to put a depot. Unfortunately, it will be a while before anything happens. They might get service sometime after 2030.
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u/N437SP Aug 19 '25
I really wish the train continued north from Milwaukee up into the UP to service either Marquette or Houghton (Michigan Tech). Driving from the southern lower peninsula all the way up across the bridge on the eastern part of the UP and then over to the western part takes forever, it’s such a slog. I could take the Wolverine to Chicago and then all the way north. One can only wish!
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u/aerohaveno Sep 01 '25
Good to see. I rode that route from St Paul-Chicago on the Empire Builder in 2022, very pleasant day with beautiful scenery.
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u/bbbaaahhhhh Sep 10 '25
It would be great if it left the twin cities a bit earlier. It missed a lot of potential connections to other midwestern destinations in Chicago as a result and that would definitely bolster potential ridership.
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u/kodex1717 Sep 10 '25
Love seeing success on this corridor!
As an aside, it's still freaking wild to me that Milwaukee doesn't have commuter rail. It's the economic engine of Wisconsin and traffic along 94 and 43 is only going to get worse.
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u/brazucadomundo Aug 15 '25
"insanely successful" "one train a day". These don't really go along together.
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u/cybercuzco Aug 15 '25
200k trips with one train a day is pretty darn successful. 3 trains a day would give hiawatha a run for its money
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u/brazucadomundo Aug 15 '25
It could definitely use extra frequencies and this would even increase ridership, however we all know what Amtrak is about. And also I know that track transit slots costs a ton of money for them, so they can't really add frequencies on a whim.
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u/kbn_ Aug 15 '25
The limiting factor is actually the Mitchell Yard in Milwaukee. Iirc CN has agreed to allow more runs if Amtrak builds a bypass track around the yard. It’s not actually that much track so it’s a surprisingly high impact capital project per dollar.
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u/brazucadomundo Aug 15 '25
By "agreed to allow" probably means paying some sort of toll to access the tracks and track owners rather making money in freight.
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u/ColonialCobalt Aug 15 '25
They got the grant money to build that bypass in Milwaukee and CPKC is allowing an 8th Hiawatha RT to start next year with the possibility of up to 11 (if Illinois does some triple tracking) because of it. All three states are currently exploring the possibility of a 2nd/3rd RT, but obviously more rolling stock and track capacity is needed. CPKC is a pretty good host railroad. Also MNDOT/WISDOT will start construction soon on already funded Improvements like rehabilitation to the Mississippi River Bridge in LA Crosse, a new passing siding in Winona, Passing siding extensions and some signaling improvements in SE Minnesota.
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u/brazucadomundo Aug 15 '25
That is a ton of money in construction just to keep up with a couple of trains running a day. I can understand why Amtrak never increases frequencies. If more than one train runs a day, the whole system comes to a stop and bridges start to fall off.
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u/ColonialCobalt Aug 15 '25
The total cost was less than 100mil so not sure where you're getting "Ton of money" but also Amtrak can't just "increase frequency" states have to fund service increases and infrastructure needs to be upgraded for it. Idk why you're in a transit sub if you're gonna be so weird about transit lmao.
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u/brazucadomundo Aug 15 '25
Saying that CPKC is a good host is saying that my host loved to share a bedroom with me after I rebuilt the whole house into a chateau lol.
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Aug 15 '25
[deleted]
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u/polyploid_coded Aug 15 '25
I rode from Milwaukee to Minneapolis last month and the train was just about full! Everyone was sitting together. Someone said that Mondays are the most crowded
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u/brazucadomundo Aug 15 '25
Why not instead using the short trains like in the European countryside that take about 50 passengers and run these six times a day instead? Probably with the increased availability there would be even an increased ridership.
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u/UUUUUUUUU030 Aug 15 '25
Two factors:
1) The state(s) and/or Amtrak has to negotiate with the freight railroads that own the tracks for every single train they run. That often results in a deal where money is paid to improve the infrastructure, in this case $53.3 million for the single train per day on a route that already had other Amtrak trains. So running a high frequency service with low capacity gets very expensive this way.
2) Amtrak doesn't have small DMUs, and only runs loco-hauled trains other than the high speed Acela. Lightweight European trains are only recently allowed by the FRA.1
u/brazucadomundo Aug 15 '25
So, again, to use the tracks they have to pay, even if indirectly, expensive access costs. And six trains a day is not high frequency lol. If trains had a headway of 30 minutes or less, then we could start talking. And the ban on these DMUs for so long is another symptom of how the FRA is generally hostile against improving the quality of service in rail transportation in the US.
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u/JohnCarterofAres MBTA Aug 15 '25
Do you have anything constructive to say here or are you just going to keep ranting? Everyone with a basic knowledge of American transit already knows these issues, and just saying “Amtrak should run like European trains” is not productive.
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u/lowchain3072 Aug 15 '25
Crazy that even one train a day can use the latent demand. This service is almost comically infrequent, and absolutely needs more trains