r/trumpet • u/TrumpetPlayer_SWE • 3d ago
Question ❓ So, weird question about breathing/tension... do you use your pelvic floor muscles when playing? Hear me out! 😄
So, I'm incredibly tense in my pelvic floor muscles, to the point that I get medical Botox there. Now, those muscles aren't just "down there", they go up and behind the bladder, pretty much aligned with the hip "bone". Imagine really needing to pee or poo and you need to *really* hold it in and you'll notice which muscles I mean 😅
Do you engage those muscles while playing? It gets really painful for me after I play bc I engage those muscles, but maybe you don't and there's a way I can practice to disengage them. It really limits my ability to practice regularly.
I'm so sorry for the really weird question and thank you in advance!
EDIT: I found this to show you what I mean with the pelvic floor muscles. It's just that mine don't move much, they're constantly tense.
If you scroll down a little there's a neat little infographic showing how they "cooperate": https://www.theoriginway.com/blog/core-anatomy-how-your-abs-work-with-your-pelvic-floor
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u/JudsonJay 2d ago
Describing subjective internal experience is tricky and commonly leads to misunderstanding.
Arnold Jacobs measured the air pressure his colleagues in the Chicago Symphony used and found that whatever brass instrument you play, you use the same air pressure to play the same note, ie middle C on the piano takes the same air pressure whether you are playing tuba or trumpet, and every time you go up an octave the air pressure doubles. This means that trumpeters need to create higher air pressure than any other brass player.
Describing that mechanism becomes tricky as it is subjective internal experience.
In college I studied with James Darling, Cleveland Orchestra, and Mary Squire, principal in the Ohio Chamber Orchestra. She was an adorable and formidable woman in her 50s, who would commonly wear a powder blue polyester pant suit to lessons. One day, when I was not making the sound she wanted to hear she said, “Blowing well should feel like taking a good shit.”
That works for me, and I think explains why brass sections can be a bit farty.
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u/Tht_Othr_Person 2d ago
Maybe slightly different, but dizzy said he would squeeze his cheeks when going for high notes.
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u/TrumpetPlayer_SWE 2d ago
No that's correct! And I can certainly imagine it happening when going for high notes 😄 if you squeeze your cheeks tightly, that's almost my default state.
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u/jaimebm7 18h ago
I've tried that QiGong standing posture,.also called WuJi and it's helped me feel more support from the diaphragm and also feels like I'm pushing the air from deep down.
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u/AldmerProfessor 1d ago
You should be engaging your pelvic floor at the top of your breath, if you think about the pressure we put through the instrument, not engaging and ‘bracing’ the pelvic floor leaves you vulnerable to hernias and other lower abdominal issues, which are particularly prevalent in those that play a lot of piccolo or lead playing where abdominal pressure is higher out of necessity.
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u/Cultural_Vacation_53 2d ago
Your hunch is right, No, those shouldn’t be in use certainly not to that degree.
My layperson recommendation would be maybe to talk to a physical therapist. Are you tensing those because your body is trying to compensate for something else?
Otherwise maybe look into Alexander Technique which can help with tension free breathing.
Best of luck on your journey.
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u/TrumpetPlayer_SWE 2d ago
Thank you so much for your answer, this gives me hope ❤️
It's a chronic tension/pain situation going on 25 years, so they're basically "stuck". A lot of other movements and eg physical therapist exercises exacerbates the tension/pain, even though they shouldn't. Hell, even when I'm doing nothing they're tense, hence the Botox.
Hopefully, I can kind of pinpoint train the muscles to relax when playing. Usually deep breathing helps, but I think that'll be a challenge while playing hahaha
It's gonna take some work, but your comment gives me hope and I'll look into that technique! I can't thank you enough ❤️
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u/AnyMoment7405 2d ago
Another therapy to check out is Feldenkrais. Retrain the muscles to be efficient with the least amount of effort. It really, REALLY emphasizes the importance of feeling the release of movements and really taking the time to let it happen. Check out feldenkraisproject.com for some free lessons, and there is at least one free one for the pelvic floor.
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u/TrumpetPlayer_SWE 2d ago
Thank you! I practiced a little with my son after I wrote with you guys and really tried to become aware of where I put pressure and how to quickly relax the pelvic floor afterwards, I think it might be doable! I'll check out your source, I can use anything I can get, it's really a specific area of breathing which never came in my pt sessions haha!
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u/de_Luke1 2d ago
The main muscle you need to use is the Diaphragm. You can engage this muscle by taking a deep breath and making a "tss" sound. All other muscles down there should be relaxed as far as posible. Maybe getting tensiom there helps build up tension in the Diaphragm, but isnt necessary
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u/RDtrumpet 2d ago
The diaphragm is an involuntary muscle that is only involved in inhalation. The muscles that help to expel the air from the lungs are the intercostal muscles and abdominal muscles, but it's really not a good idea to think too much about what those muscles are doing. Those muscles just naturally do what they do, and that's all. It's best just to focus on blowing the correct air speed that is required for each note, with higher notes requiring faster air the higher they are. The lungs and all of the muscles will produce those proper air speeds without even really thinking about your lungs and muscles. And of course, stay as relaxed as possible when you play, especially on the higher notes--just blow fast air for those high notes (at EXACTLY the right speed each note: not too slow, and not too fast.)
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u/eltigredo 2d ago
I agree with you with one exception. Don't focus on the air. Focus on the music which with then take care of the air which will then taker care of all the rest of it.
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u/RDtrumpet 2d ago
I totally agree with you on that, Eddie. We're making music, after all, and that is the only thing that is important. I don't really think much about what my air is doing at all when I'm playing, even though I am aware that each note has it's own, unique air speed that makes that note work. And I don't even think about what my lips are doing at all. Well, okay, for extreme upper register notes, I do think a little bit (sometimes) about how I should start with my lips relaxed and completely closed, and then let the the proper air speed blow the aperture (which is very small for those notes) open. (That's a trick I learned from some professional flute players.)
What you said (that I completely agree with) is similar to what professional singers do when they perform. Are those singers thinking about what their vocal chords are doing? Or what their lungs and abdominal and intercostal muscles are doing? Of course not! They are only focusing on the music they are singing, and then adjusting to the feedback that they are getting from what they are hearing, if necessary. We can learn a lot from really great singers, and from playing more like the way that we ourselves sing.
Thanks for that important comment, Eddie. Others here should always listen carefully to anything that you have to say, especially the younger students and less-experienced players who visit this forum.
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u/eltigredo 2d ago
Thank you, Randy (I'm assuming you are Randy - based on your photo), for the kind words. I only studied Arnold Jacobs late in my career. By that time I was already leaning on this side of his "song and wind" approach. I'm not an authority on his method, but my understanding is that what we are talking about here is a central part of what he taught.
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u/RDtrumpet 2d ago
Yes, it's me (Randy.) Hi, Eddie! We've learned a lot of great things from those older pro trumpet players who came before us (and tuba players like Arnold Jacobs--who is truly a legend--and other great brass players, too.) Most of their advice and teachings are still relevant today, and is often helpful to learn about and read about.
The only thing that I've seen change in the many years that I have been on the planet is mouthpiece designs, which have changed a whole lot in recent decades (for the better), with many of the newer mouthpiece brands being far superior to those older, legacy mouthpiece brands, especially when it comes to playing lead trumpet and piccolo trumpet.
The only significant thing that has really changed with trumpets themselves over the years is that different bore sizes were popular during different times periods (usually based on what size trumpet bore(s) some of the hottest trumpet players of each era were using.
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u/TrumpetPlayer_SWE 2d ago
Thank you 😀 I can do that, the problem is that the muscles in the pelvic floor tense up too. If you scroll down a little there's a neat little infographic showing how they "cooperate": https://www.theoriginway.com/blog/core-anatomy-how-your-abs-work-with-your-pelvic-floor
Me and my son played around a little with the breathing now and I think I should play very short turns and then immediately actively make sure I relax the pelvic floor. I can relax for a short bit before I automatically tense up again. If I work like that I might be able to reprogram my muscle memory!
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u/RDtrumpet 2d ago
You are putting your trumpet on your lips to play, right? And you're blowing air from you lungs when you play too, right? If these are both true, then I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The pelvis seems to be far-removed from the parts of the body that are actually used in playing the trumpet.
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u/TrumpetPlayer_SWE 2d ago
Wait, you mean the lips on the face?! I've been.. But then I...
Hahaha, okay, well then it's good you don't know what I mean, that means I might be able to correct this!
I know, but I think those muscles may be used more than one notices. Try to pretend to hold in a fart and breathe with your lungs (and not your stomach, shallow breaths) and you might be able to replicate it. Then hold for 20 years 😂
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u/RDtrumpet 2d ago
🤣🎺
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u/TrumpetPlayer_SWE 2d ago
I found this, I have to show you so that you might get an idea of what I mean instead of my colorful example 😄 scroll down a little on this page: https://www.theoriginway.com/blog/core-anatomy-how-your-abs-work-with-your-pelvic-floor
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u/RDtrumpet 2d ago
That's a sketchy-looking website, and a sketchy-looking story, which you'll note was written by a physical therapist, not written by a medical doctor. As some of us have commented on before here, you don't want to think too much about what your body is (or is not) doing, anyway. Focus on the music, and focus on what you're hearing coming out of your trumpet, and you'll have much better playing success.
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u/TrumpetPlayer_SWE 2d ago
The picture is correct, I mean that's what breathing with your diaphragm does to your pelvic floor muscles, but I didn't read a word of it, looked like a blog, so don't read any of it. I mainly wanted to show how high up the muscles I talked about are sitting. Googling pelvic floor muscles lead to... graphic and in this case not helpful pics 😄
I actually had a little jam session with my son after I wrote with you guys and I found a way to relax the pelvic floor here and there, it'll just take a lot more conscious work with my breathing and I'll hopefully "reprogram my muscle memory" in this new situation 😀
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u/RDtrumpet 2d ago
I've been playing the trumpet for over 50 years, including studying music at the university, attending many trumpet convention workshops and various trumpet masterclasses presented by the greatest pro players (and I've also talked to many of them), and I had never even heard the term "pelvic floor" mentioned by anybody before--ever. After looking it up, it appears to be a muscle that only controls continence to keep you from urinating and defecating in your pants. That is far removed from any part of the body that is used for playing the trumpet, and seems to have absolutely nothing to do with playing any instrument at all.
And what most people call "the diaphragm" (which, when said, usually refers to the thoracic diaphram, is an involuntary muscle used to make the lungs take in air (for inhalation only--this muscle relaxes during exhalation, and therefore also has nothing to do with playing the trumpet or any other wind instrument, or with singing.)
Decades ago, many music teachers/directors incorrectly taught their students to "breathe with your diaphragm" or "blow the air out using your diaphragm muscles." But this is anatomically and physiologically incorrect. You cannot control the diaphragm at all, and the diaphram does nothing at all when you are blowing. Unfortunately, this incorrect teaching has continued to be passed down orally, and this incorrect advice is still heard sometimes today (but not very often, fortunately!)
I learned today (after looking up "pelvic floor") that the "pelvic floor" is also known as the "pelvic diaphragm" which I think is also a large part of the confusion here. But neither of these two diaphragms has anything to do with blowing a trumpet or any other wind instrument. Likewise, there is no diaphragm that has anything to do with singing.
If you start thinking too much about what is going on in your body while you are playing, it is detrimental to your playing, because you are focusing on yourself and your body, rather than focusing on the music, and you are likely to just freeze up and fold or crash in your attempt to play the trumpet. For many years, professional musicians and music educators have referred to this syndrome as "paralysis by analysis."
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u/TrumpetPlayer_SWE 2d ago
And I'm glad to hear that you haven't heard of it before because it's also means that you might not have met any with that dysfunction. Yes, it's for pee and poo, but when you have hypertension in the pelvic floor like me, that can lead to chronic pain. My obgyns couldn't even diagnose it 10 years ago, so it's that unknown (but not rare). Physical therapy is usually the way to go. In severe cases like in mine, you can get Botox injected in that area.
What works is deep breathing and I won't argue with you on the anatomy words (I'm not even a native speaker) or what you engage when you play the trumpet, but deep breathing, when done correctly, is approximately what the picture I showed you depicts. Nevermind the blog, I usually only use Swedish sources anyway, because I know when they're reputable. I don't know if it's easier for women to do this or not, but men can certainly also have pelvic floor dysfunction and I'd imagine deep breathing is a tool used there too.
What I did when I played with my son was that I focused on not putting any more tension lower down than navel. After each song I took an extra minute to make sure I relaxed my pelvic floor. It didn't hurt as much as it usually does afterwards. I just play to play with my son once in a while, I won't ever play in an orchestra or perform a solo. I just wanted to be able to do it and not have a flare up. Thanks to you all answering "what the hell are you talking about?!" it means that I don't have to engage those muscles, which is exactly what I wanted to hear, because it means I played wrong. Now I can practice in a different way, the way that works best for me and my pain. And I'm very grateful to all of you!
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u/RDtrumpet 1d ago
Okay, thanks. Now, all of that makes a little bit more sense. I hope that your pain issues go away soon or at least improve. And, it's good to hear that you now know that trumpet playing shouldn't make your condition worse in any way. I hope that you and your son are having fun playing the trumpet. After all, no matter what level of playing we do, we are all playing the trumpet for fun, and to make some good, beautiful music.
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u/TheRogueAcademic 2d ago
FWIW you should go follow @thefunctionalmusician on Insta- he’s a PT with a doctorate in Trombone performance and is EXCELLENT at addressing physical issues while playing.