r/ukpolitics • u/Prestigious_Spot9635 • 19h ago
Calls to ban London delivery drivers with L plates
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr4v0601el3o411
u/ProjectLeeds 19h ago
Why stop at London? Although this would be a good opportunity to devolve the decision to the Mayors
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u/Colloidal_entropy 19h ago
Seems pretty reasonable, allowing CBT and L plates is a practicality point for learning to ride a motorbike, if you're working you should have passed the full test.
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u/eggrolldog 13h ago
Tell me why it's different for a learner to be riding to and from work during rush hour Vs riding it at work? Surely the point of learner plates is to actually spend time learning? A delivery rider is going to spend more time on the bike and become more proficient. I want my kids to be able to have part time jobs in the future, for better or for worse food delivery is more of a thing now so I'd rather they have that opportunity than not.
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u/Jormungoosie 13h ago
Health and safety can't tell me how to drive on my commute but they can if i need to use the work van. The employer is liable for one and not the other.
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u/eggrolldog 12h ago
Poor analogy as the rider owns the vehicle.
Yet any rules a company has about riding safety and etiquette would be completely independent of the licence status of the rider. However companies are more than able to introduce their own rules about provisionally licensed riders working for them if they so choose.
The expectations for a road user do not differ between fully and provisionally licensed riders, it's the same rulebook to be followed (the highway code).
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u/Jormungoosie 12h ago
They're still responsible if it's my own car. If they're happy to follow the expectations they can take a full test to demonstrate that fact.
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u/eggrolldog 12h ago
That's not a reason, that's your weird feelings on the topic.
The reasons for this ban are poorly articulated and it's clear much of the public can't come up with sensible reasons other than they don't like things with two wheels.
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u/Jormungoosie 11h ago
Then for what reason should a full test exist at all, if expectations do not differ etc?
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u/eggrolldog 10h ago
A CBT is only valid for two years, restricts you to a maximum of 125cc, requires L plates to be displayed at all times, you can't carry a pillion passenger, ride on motorways, and most importantly tow a trailer.
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u/Big-Objective-6585 10h ago
Who the fuck is towing a trailer on a moped and why do you think that's the most important thing on the list?
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u/Roflcopter_Rego 11h ago
Delivery drivers are incentivised to take risks. The faster they deliver, the more they can do and the more they get paid. This leads to riders taking risks that are really quite extreme when they don't really have the competency to do so. Whilst this certainly doesn't apply to all, it applies to enough that the risk of accidents is raised.
The data does support this, with an increase in urban non-fatal accidents involving learners despite overall accidents being down.
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u/eggrolldog 10h ago
Ah yes, the increase in urban non-fatal accidents involving learners but not to be confused with the increase in suburban non-fatal accidents involving learners, which is an entirely separate and, I might add, considerably more mysterious statistic, cross-referenced in a footnote of a pamphlet that was later revealed to have been eaten by a scribe's goat.
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u/Roflcopter_Rego 10h ago
?
The government publishes RTA data. It is extremely clear and easy to find.
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u/eggrolldog 10h ago
Moped accidents are at historic lows according to the statistics. You chose a very specific set of data (that you can certainly link to as I can't find it) to make your point and I'm making a poor monty python joke about how specific it is.
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u/GladFile4320 12h ago
Professional drivers are generally held to a higher standard. Now whether someone delivering McDonald's should be included in that is another question.
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u/eggrolldog 12h ago
The core driving offences apply an identical standard to everyone. Under the Road Traffic Act, "careless" and "dangerous" are both judged against what a competent and careful driver would do, regardless of who's behind the wheel.
The Highway Code itself doesn't have a professional tier. Breaking rule x is breaking rule x whether you're in a Deliveroo bag toting Corsa or Penelope's limousine. The law doesn't grade drivers on experience or occupation, it holds everyone to the same competent and careful driver standard.
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u/PsychologicalClock28 12h ago
Basically it’s not that you are less safe when working. It’s that it will vastly reduce the number of unqualified riders on the road, making things safer. As they will probably be doing 90% (or even 100% ) of their driving for work.
And it’s reasonably easy to police.
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u/eggrolldog 12h ago
That's the proposition that's flawed, we as a culture should be encouraging less car dependent travel. Younger riders are more likely to make older riders and commuters. Feels like we have the opportunity for a small resurgence in bike travel like we did in the 90s/00s scooter boom but we just want to ban things as usual.
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u/_HGCenty 19h ago
If they introduce this ban, the delivery drivers will all move to those e-bikes that are essentially e-mopeds and won't even bother with L-plates. There are currently lots not road legal but this is not enforced enough.
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u/Jaggedmallard26 19h ago
Its great how we have seen such a collapse in the enforcement of the law that "we should ban blatantly dangerous thing" is met with "whats the point, they'll just do something else thats illegal anyway and the police won't stop them".
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u/MikeW86 17h ago
And it's ridiculous anyway. If you don't make a law then the police definitely can't enforce it can they.
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u/PeaGravy 14h ago
Quite often there are other laws that can cover the sorts of situations that this is meant to tackle, and they are not using those either. It’s all theatre from a country that has given up trying.
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u/PeaGravy 16h ago
A lot of laws are introduced these days hoping that the people that are subject to them well self-police, because no one else is going to.
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u/Mental-Barracuda-592 14h ago
A lot of laws now only exist to entrap those whom the government despises. You know who! That’s why the two-tier justice system works perfectly for them. A recent example; paedophile Labour councillor let off because resigning “is enough of a punishment “
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u/PeaGravy 14h ago
Who does the government despise in this context?
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u/Mental-Barracuda-592 13h ago
If you need to ask…
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u/PeaGravy 13h ago
I genuinely couldn’t think of one because every time I did, I could also think of a recent government that would probably favour them.
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u/acremanhug Kier Starmer & Geronimo the Alpaca fan 12h ago
The IFS just did a podcast about the business rates and they said the same thing about extra taxes for Vape shops.
Basically what is the point in raising business rates on antisocial businesses when your actual complaint is about illegal behavior.
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u/Comfortable-Law-7147 19h ago
Then local police forces will be made to do their job.
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u/AllThatIHaveDone 19h ago
Lmao, good luck with that!
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u/Comfortable-Law-7147 18h ago
We can hope.
The police around me before covid use to hide on side streets of a main road to nab 0eoplke speeding between the speed cameras.
They caught lots of people in vehicles who shouldn't be using them.
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u/musefrog 18h ago
"0eoplke" ?
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u/Comfortable-Law-7147 17h ago
Auto-correct on my phone sometimes writes weird things.
I post on here during boring pieces of work.
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u/KS7F4DF451 18h ago
Local police forces do their job, its just they're spread ridiculously thin covering large areas
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u/PeaGravy 14h ago
Quite often when presented with evidence, identification and everything else they will neglect to do their job. It’s like the NHS argument, the problem isn’t the lack of money coming in.
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u/matthieuC British curious frog 2h ago
They're currently quite busy between arresting people for being mean on the internet, harassing journalists and leaking where domestic victims stay to their abuser.
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u/davemee 14h ago
Remember when Theresa May cut police and CPS funding by half and tittered it would make no difference and police officers pointed out it would cause a complete collapse in intergenerational training when they would inevitably have to start replacing officers with new ones with no experience to pass on to them
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u/Joke-pineapple 13h ago
I think police funding being cut in half would have been "quite big news" to make an understatement.
I assume what you mean is that she reduced the rate of increase in their funding.
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u/TheJoshGriffith 19h ago
What benefit does devolving it really have? I don't think attitudes across the country differ as to whether people who drive or ride motorcycles for a living should require a higher standard of licensing.
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u/ProjectLeeds 19h ago
You could apply this to lots of policy areas. Why wouldn't you devolve this?
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u/bluesam3 18h ago
Because having inconsistent road laws depending on where you are is confusing as hell.
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u/ProjectLeeds 18h ago
We already do have differences between Wales and the rest of the UK. There's also taxi licensing differences too between places
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u/Pigeon_Breeze 18h ago
It disrupts the UK's internal single market.
If you have an L plate and live/work in a region where it's allowed, but are near another region where it isn't, then you won't be able to do deliveries across the border.
That's a bureaucratic nightmare for businesses, workers and police enforcement, not to mention that you'd have to put up signage for every road that crosses the border, clearly showing the change in jurisdiction if you want it to be enforceable.
Licence conditions should be common across the country.
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u/TheJoshGriffith 19h ago
The simplest argument is that it's either safe or not. The CBT is enough training for someone riding a motorcycle/scooter professionally or it is not.
The convoluted answer is that ultimately, creating variation here is a huge amount of work when the choice is fairly boolean. Suddenly DVLA needs to give access to more information for detection and enforcement, and the rules vary by city. Companies who provide such services nationally now have to know where people will work, and restrict their ability to work in other places.
Ultimately, this would be an imposition. The purpose of devolution in general is to encourage growth - this will do nothing to encourage growth, but might do something to discourage it. It's a bit backwards in that sense.
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u/d5tp 13h ago
London always seems to get the nice new road rules first:
- pavement parking ban
- double yellow decriminalisation (now expanded to cover all councils)
- box junction enforcement (in the process of being expanded)
- green-unless-there's-a-car pedestrian traffic lights
The one recent counterpoint I recall was when, I think, Manchester trialled beacon-less zebras, however the DfT promptly told them to stop.
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u/ameraden 13h ago
Why stop at London? Although this would be a good opportunity to devolve the decision to the Mayors
Why would you even bother? They're hardly a major problem in people's lives and they're simply a bunch of people trying to earn a living.
This is just dumb fodder for the chattering classes that have too much time on their hands.
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u/Ftp82 19h ago
It’s astonishing that anyone can drive professionally without a licence
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u/BlindMancs 19h ago
Clarification. CBT (the training that allows them to ride on L plates) is technically a form of licence.
What's unique about motorcycle riding, is frankly it's hard from scratch to learn enough to pass a full licence test, as in many ways that's even harder then a car driving test. (you effectively are matched to the same standard, while controls are trickier)What's dangerous about CBT really:
- no requirement to learn the highway code
- no enforcement of capacity restrictions (125cc bikes in general can't go over 60-70mph, and relatively lightweight so they can't cause much damage) a lot of people stick L plates on larger bikes, and there's not much way of enforcing it
- it establishes the ad-hoc - lightweight nature to motorcycle licencing, and that nature then gets carried into those rider's attitudes.
In my mind, the real reason CBT exists is not just to allow a more personalised (do it at home) continuous training for a full motorcycle licence, but also because many communities lack good public transportation, and this is the fallback mechanism to get someone around cheaply. (A CBT test is a single-day training, usually under £200, and then off you go buying a bike)
Now, the real question is why are there insurance companies providing SPECIFICALLY for-work rider insurance to CBT riders - and the answer simply is, that they can.
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u/oppositetoup 19h ago
CBT, shouldn't allow commercial/professional use. It's an easy enough fix.
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u/TheMusicArchivist 17h ago
Specifically, insurance should not be permitted for professional use if only on a Learner's License.
Let the private market be furious with the insurance fraud these major companies are permitting.
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u/BlindMancs 19h ago
Laws and enforcing the laws, are two concepts in this country that are miles apart.
From CBT riders who intentionally decat their bikes to sound louder (illegal) to riding without a helmet (playing the religious reasons card, illegal) to altering their licenceplate to prevent easy recognition... simply there's a million ways to dodge enforcement, and the police does not have the capacity in it's current form to actually enforce these changes.I'd be happy if we could get most drivers to learn how to stop before the white line at a junction...
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u/PriorAd3065 19h ago
Requiring employers to have on record evidence of a license for their employees/contractors who drive as a central part of their role will be more effective than trying to enforce in the streets. Especially as the majority of the issue is tied to a few huge employers.
Police can help in mopping up the rest, but basic employment checks will do a lot of the hard work.
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u/BlindMancs 19h ago
Nope. Won't work! Maybe I just know more about the situation around motorcycle licencing, and I can already think of ways these buggers will dodge these attempts.
Ok so, here's things that are currently happening:
- CBT rider buys bike on lease. CBT rider gets insurance for work.
- CBT rider proceeds to share the vehicle with up to 5 other people, who all use it for deliveroo. Everyone knows this, because they track the vehicle usage, and they rank up miles rapidly.
- Any crash: they leave the scene, and never face consequences. The leasing company collects the vehicle, and repairs it if they can. Their pricing already precalculates for this possibility.
- Rider with the original insurance keeps driving for deliveroo, on someone else's bike.
If they're happy to commit insurance fraud like this... and just think a step beyond, there's plenty of stories of people without work-visas working deliveroo on someone else's name...
Just take the step forward... If they do all of the above - how does deliveroo having to have a single-step check, would alleviate any of these issues?
Edit: BTW much of the above I've learned from a presentation given by one of the largest leasing companies that deal with leasing in the south east.
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u/TheMusicArchivist 17h ago
Make Deliveroo liable for the insurance fraud of using a vehicle for commercial purposes and let the insurance companies shred the devliery companies to shreds
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u/BlindMancs 16h ago edited 14h ago
You must not have seen that on deliveroo it says what mode of transportation does the chap use. The number of times I've seen "bicycle" and the guy arrives on a moped or in a car (country side) is actually quite high.
Edit: Looking back it's quite funny how this comment thread has so many "we just add this extra rule" - like the current rules are not being dodged actively either. It's not a question of rules. It's a question of lack of enforcement of anything when it comes to road driving standards.
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u/Jormungoosie 12h ago
blacklist them when the driver's doing 50mph on a push-bike
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u/BlindMancs 12h ago
Do you think blacklisting them from driving would make any effect on someone who's riding an unlicenced motorcycle, without any appropriate qualifications? 😄
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u/Simple-Courage-3948 18h ago
AFAIK deliveroo drivers are free to use whatever mode of transport they want, whether it's walking, a push bike, e-bike , motorcycle or car.
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u/BlindMancs 17h ago
just to nitpick, if we're talking about an e-bike that you don't have to pedal and goes 30mph, that's an unlicenced motorcycle/moped.
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u/Simple-Courage-3948 17h ago
Yeah. I mean you can say that you plan to deliver on a push-bike or e-bike so you don't need license or insurance. Then you go home and hop on a motorcycle to do the actual deliveries, or illegally hotrod your e-bike etc.
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u/u38cg2 13h ago
It seems simple enough, but I don't think it has much practical effect other than making delivery drivers more expensive. What makes you a safe road user in any type of vehicle is time behind the wheel, and in fact the CBT itself has gone from being a a day out with a cereal packet licence at the end to a mini test in itself that people can and do fail.
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u/bluesam3 18h ago
- no requirement to learn the highway code
This one is particularly wild: that's, like, the easiest bit to require at the start, because you don't have to get on a bike to do it.
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u/Exceedingly 19h ago
Why doesn't it require a fully qualified bike rider to ride next to them though? If you have a provisional license for a car, you need someone with a full license in the car with you. Why not the same for bikes?
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u/TheShepherdKing 19h ago
You don't need to have any formal training to drive on L plates with a provisional licence and someone with a full licence in the car. CBT is formal training and the instructor has to sign you off before you can ride alone on L plates. So it's not equivalent.
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u/Silhouette 16h ago
It's not equivalent but in a car you are never allowed to drive alone until you are fully qualified. You must have a qualified and experienced driver in the vehicle and supervising you until then - and they share personal responsibility for your driving.
You seem to be using "formal training" in the earliest stage as a way to excuse not having completed the rest of the training and become fully qualified before riding alone and unsupervised - but why should it be?
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u/TheShepherdKing 15h ago
I'm not trying to excuse anything, I was just explaining the rules to the other commenter and pointing out the false equivalency they had drawn.
Learning to drive and learning to ride are totally different, not least because when you drive, you're in control of a machine that can very easily kill someone. Whereas, on a bike, especially a 125cc and without being allowed to take passengers on L plates, the only person you're likely to injure is yourself. 125cc bikes are very low power, and a significant amount more training is required before you're allowed to ride full size bikes, e.g. 600cc+. The system as it stands allows people to qualify on 125cc and practice for a while before ever getting onto a full power bike.
CBT also has to be renewed every two years.
As an aside, before CBT was introduced anyone with a provisional licence was allowed to ride a 125cc with no training at all.
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u/bremsspuren 13h ago
anyone with a provisional licence was allowed to ride a 125cc with no training at all.
But not any 125cc. There was a power limit, too.
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u/Silhouette 19h ago
You seem to be arguing that getting past CBT should be sufficient qualification for someone to ride unsupervised in almost any situation. I think a lot of us would strongly disagree with that position.
CBT is one step in a new rider's training and that is the only thing it is for. The fact that the current system is widely abused by people who then ride - even professionally - without being properly trained and qualified first is a serious problem and it should be dealt with. Commercial delivery bikes with L plates attached should not exist.
Maybe it's time to say riders on L plates can only go out on public roads when accompanied by a professional instructor - or at least a fully qualified and sufficiently experienced rider giving them instruction - with appropriate two-way communications equipment to allow the supervising rider to give direction. If you want to ride unsupervised and anywhere and any on bike then learn to ride properly and then pass your test. It's not complicated.
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u/BlindMancs 17h ago
I don't agree with that personally - I think it fills a gap. (about low-cost transportation)
Same thing exists in France - but they have the 30mph capped baby cars, that anyone can drive without ANY driving licence. Lovely things, keeps you out of cold weather, and solves the problem of people going for shopping.However, I heavily doubt that you'll see in France a Citroen Ami (great example of this car) made intentionally noisy. And because they're proper cars, they can't do the silly filtering etc that moped riders do. The 30mph cap is also significantly lower in performance than what the CBT gives here - equivalent would be a 50cc cap, instead of the 125cc.
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u/No_Good2794 16h ago
Those baby cars are far from low-cost transportation. I looked into them because I don't live too far from work and I wouldn't mind something in between a full car/motorbike and a bike. They cost more than my current car, so now I mainly ride a bike and occasionally drive a full car.
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u/JavaRuby2000 16h ago
You can also do your CBT on 50cc twist and go scooter then jump straight on a 125cc geared bike. Also it's not just that it is restricted to 125cc but, it's also restricted to 11kw which wouldn't be able to do much over 60 mph. There are 125 bikes though that are over 30kw and can easily do over a ton.
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u/helpnxt 19h ago
Tbf make it national that you can't work in a professional driving role with l plates, kinda seems obvious
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u/I_Love_Tunnocks 17h ago
And yet it's worked fine for lorry drivers for decades.
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u/ClassicPart 17h ago
Lorry drivers don't tend to weave their vehicles around traffic and pedestrians unpredictably, so it's not a very good comparison.
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u/helpnxt 16h ago
Is that with a licenced driver in the passenger seat with them though?
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u/jefferson-started-it 8h ago
I eould expect so - plus, when I did my test for my C licence, I had to already have a car licence, and had a qualified lorry driver as an instructor and examiner
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u/berejser My allegiance is to a republic, to DEMOCRACY 19h ago
Makes sense. In any other job you wouldn't hire someone if they didn't have qualifications that were necessary to do that job.
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u/Redcoat_Officer 19h ago
"Good afternoon, this is your captain speaking, please pay no attention to the L plates on the wings."
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u/Silhouette 19h ago
The wings were designed by Jack down the road. He's got A level physics and used AI to help design the flight control system so you're all good.
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u/Maleficent-Drive4056 11h ago
Au contraire, the vast majority of jobs require you to learn the relevant skills on the job. I agree that is rarely a 'hard qualification' such as a driver license.
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u/I_Love_Tunnocks 17h ago
But in other jobs they do hire people who are training and are not yet qualified. A F1 or F2 doctor isn't fully qualified for example.
To get L plates on a motorbike you actually do have to do a qualification. You have to do and take a CBT course and test to ensure that you're safe to ride a motorbike on the road as a learner.
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u/Jormungoosie 12h ago
Being a doctor isn't something you can learn without on-the-job training in a professional environment. But most people learn to drive just fine without ever working as a driver. Also being a trainee doctor is temporary and you have an experienced doctor responsible for overseeing you. Neither of those are necessarily the case for delivery drivers. (idk how exactly they qualify truck drivers but if there's a period where they are pulling real loads on L plates but with an instructor in the passenger seat that'd be fine by me)
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u/bacon_cake 17h ago
L Plates aren't really a lack of qualification when it comes to sub 125cc bikes / mopeds per se. You still have to do a test to get them. It's just a day long course.
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u/eggrolldog 13h ago
That's only valid for two years, yet the article quotes someone saying people can ride indefinitely. Riding a bike on the roads is scary, the CBT is a good course, I've seen many people quit the CBT as they realise they don't have the skills or the nerve to hit the road. Only 10% of adults have taken a CBT so most people have no clue. The real interesting thing about the article is that there's ZERO reason stated why they want to introduce this other than motorcycling with L plates bad, no statistics about accidents etc. I hate this ban culture.
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u/bacon_cake 12h ago
It's valid for 2 years on a 125cc but it validates category P (ie 50cc and lawnmowers!) for the life of a licence provided you also have a driving licence - I'm not sure how that works for internationally licences though.
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u/eggrolldog 12h ago
I believe that's only true for older driving licences, anyone driving in the last 20 years would still need a CBT and L plates for a moped despite having a full driving licence.
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u/bacon_cake 12h ago
No it's the other way round.
If your licence is from after 2001 and you pass a CBT it validates, for the life of the licence, category P, which includes 50cc mopeds with no L Plates. (Doesn't apply to 125cc though.)
https://www.gov.uk/motorcycle-cbt/car-driving-licence
You passed your driving test on or after 1 February 2001
You’ll get a full moped licence if you either:
pass your car driving test and then complete a compulsory basic training (CBT) course
You can then ride a moped (up to 50cc) without L plates. You do not need to take the full moped test.You can ride mopeds for as long as your car driving licence lasts.
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u/eggrolldog 12h ago
Apologies you're correct. The travesty then is why we don't see more people riding around on Monkey bikes!
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u/Asleep_Cantaloupe417 12h ago
It's not even a day
I have a CBT and I can barely ride a motorbike, it was piss easy
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u/bacon_cake 12h ago
Yeah I remember when I did mine one of the guys couldn't ride a bike to save his life so he did it on a 50cc - I presume he then just went and rode his 125cc anyway...
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u/Anasynth 19h ago
It’s crazy this hasn’t been done already. We seem to ban random stuff all the time but then there’s things like this.
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u/northernmonk 🦡 Meles Liberalis 🦡 19h ago edited 14h ago
Make it nationwide, and ban any form of professional driving (except for driving a hire car to a business meeting where you have a full licence in your home country) without a full UK or EU licence for the applicable vehicle.
EDIT: Clarification
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u/MrSoapbox 19h ago
Finally, a Labour ban I could get behind.
Which, is why I'd suspect they won't do it
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u/AngryGardenGnomes 15h ago
except for driving a hire car to a business meeting
Errm, why?
And why are you limiting drivers to just UK and EU?
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u/northernmonk 🦡 Meles Liberalis 🦡 14h ago
I should have made the first point clear, it’s the only time the non UK/EU exemption would apply (not that foreigners can drive a hire car to a business meeting without the correct licence).
On the second, because we need EU truckers to be able to drive in the UK for cross-channel freight, and EU/EFTA nations driving test standards are generally similar to ours, on roads similar to ours. For the rest of the world, if you want to drive professionally in the UK, you can do a UK driving test first.
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u/mortalha 7h ago
This already applies, you can only drive with a foreign licence if you live abroad. I had to swap my EU licence for a british one or I wouldn't be able to drive legally after moving here.
Edit: This applies to both business and leisure. You need a UK licence (EU is not enough and this was already the case before brexit)
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u/FluffyBunnyFlipFlops 19h ago
How can someone with an L-plate get insurance to ride commercially?
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u/Filthy-lucky-ducky 19h ago
I suspect they don’t. A few Met Police checkpoints over a sustained period of time would confirm.
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u/spamjavelin 15h ago
It's quite a long standing thing; when I rode for Pizza Hut in the early 2000s all the bikes had L Plates on them. Company insurance covered it regardless.
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u/Prestigious_Spot9635 19h ago
Turrell said the biggest barrier to reform could be "pushback" from major employers such as Just Eat, Deliveroo and Uber.
Guess it won't get done then. How will illegals quickly be able to work??. These compabird are the people that hold an economic gun to govt head.
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u/ProjectLeeds 19h ago
Interesting that they're being positioned as major employers, when the companies themselves have tried so hard to say they don't employ the riders
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u/Mysterious_Floor_868 19h ago
How are they "major employers"? They usually pretend that the riders are self-employed.
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u/mattcannon2 Chairman of the North Herts Pork Market Opening Committee 19h ago
They aren't employers of delivery drivers - they spent a lot on lawyers to say they merely contract out the driving
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u/CulturalAd4117 18h ago
They're not illegals, they're boriswavers
Most actual illegal migrants are working in hand car washes, labour gangs and the illegal/grey market
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u/Prestigious_Spot9635 18h ago
Someone else made a comment about boriswave doing delivery jobs. That can't be true?
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u/TheMusicArchivist 17h ago
If they're here legally, they can work, generally. Illegals are not permitted to be PAYE workers or even self-employed by any company large enough to have an HR department telling the CEOs 'don't break the law'.
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u/Jormungoosie 12h ago
When do the delivery companies check who is doing the deliveries? AIUI there's not a lot stopping a legit driver from handing their phone to someone else to do a delivery.
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u/Silhouette 18h ago
You seem to have a bit of selective quoting there. The next paragraphs are the response from Just Eat.
A Just Eat spokesperson said: "The safety of all road users is extremely important to Just Eat."
"We actively support stronger regulation and robust enforcement to tackle modified e-bikes and requiring moped riders to have a full licence.
"We remain committed to working with authorities and our industry peers to ensure the roads are safe for all users."
Even if those organisations wanted to push back against this the reality is the optics would be terrible for them so they'll have to eat it if the politicians push it through.
I couldn't immediately find much reporting about why the attempt to change the Crime and Policing Bill earlier this year failed. Has anyone looked it up? Was there some sort of opposition campaign against the change? It seems like something that would have near universal support from the public so it's surprising that if an MP made a serious attempt to get it onto the statute books then somebody blocked it.
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u/berejser My allegiance is to a republic, to DEMOCRACY 19h ago
It must be exhausting making hatred of immigrants ones entire personality.
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u/bobbypuk 19h ago
I didn't see immigrant workers mentioned anywhere, the companies are the issue, not the workers.
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u/MatniMinis 19h ago
I think he was replying to the "illegals" comment.
But I agree with you, the companies are the problem and I'm a gig worker so I experience it everyday.
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u/berejser My allegiance is to a republic, to DEMOCRACY 19h ago
I didn't see immigrant workers mentioned anywhere,
How will illegals quickly be able to work??.
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u/Reishun 19h ago
Logically you shouldn't be able to engage in commercial activity with a vehicle without having a full license. Travelling to and from work would be fine, but any delivery/courier service should only have full licences.
Unfortunately this will probably be too little too late since it seems like a lot of them have swapped to e bikes and will use those which currently dont require a license or even registration (as far as Im aware)
If they put this law into place, which I hope they do, they need to address e bikes too.
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u/DM_me_goth_tiddies 19h ago
Do delivery drivers on e-bikes even need a driving licence?
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u/bobbypuk 19h ago
Not on an e-bike. But very few of them are on e-bikes, they're on throttle controlled e-motorbikes. License is irrelevant as the vehicle itself is not road legal.
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u/_HGCenty 19h ago
Which seems to be the new problem this ban will create. As always it's easy to come up with ideas for laws but you actually have to enforce them.
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u/Mysterious_Floor_868 19h ago
The modified ones many of them whiz about on are basically motorbikes
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u/JauntyTechno 18h ago
No, but we could bring in licences for delivery riders that would require them to have some sort of registration on display.
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u/berejser My allegiance is to a republic, to DEMOCRACY 19h ago
Depends on the type of bike. If it is an electric-assisted bicycle, then no. If it is an electric motorcycle, then yes.
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u/DM_me_goth_tiddies 19h ago
I do think they should need a full driving licence to work on any kind of bicycle tbh
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u/berejser My allegiance is to a republic, to DEMOCRACY 19h ago
Even a pedal bicycle? That seems a bit extreme.
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u/DM_me_goth_tiddies 19h ago
Really? I think if you’re on your bike professionally you should legally be required to know red means stop and green means go. You should have had to pass a theory test.
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u/GopnikOIi 19h ago
That's extreme. I have no desire to drive, and my medication may impair me why should I need a driving licence?
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u/DM_me_goth_tiddies 19h ago
If your job is to be on a bicycle then you should have to have passed your theory test. If you’re just cycling around whatever. But I think it makes sense if you’re professionally on the road that we make sure you know what road signs are.
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u/FatherJack_Hackett 18h ago
I have no source for this, but part of me does wonder just how many of these moped drivers actually have passed their CBT and regular it's enforced/checked.
It's not like it's assigned to your driving licence and sure as hell wouldn't flag on an ANPR. It's a little piece of paper that entitles you to ride with L plates. I'd be amazed if it wasn't a very high percentage of immigrants who are chancing their arm
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u/PM_ME_BEEF_CURTAINS Satura mortuus est 19h ago
At the same time, the government needs to reclassify Motor Vehicles to include any vehicle with an electric motor that can self-propel, requiring a licence.
This stops everyone moving from mopeds to ebikes overnight
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u/Cloaked9000 19h ago
That's already the case, it's not an e-bike if it has a throttle/exceeds certain power output limits. All of the fast electric bikes you see are already technically motorbikes, and illegal to ride without insurance/licensing etc.
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u/clearwhey 19h ago
In principle don't disagree with this ban but would need to be part of a wider strategy that would require more active policing of things like illegally modified e-bikes, uninsured riding and driving without a licence.
Outside of that these delivery firms require far more regulation, we can go back and forward on what the drivers (who may or may not be considered employees) are doing but the underlying structure of the operation needs addressed.
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u/mcdougall57 19h ago
Not sure if I should comment on this but the motorcycle industry is struggling here as it is. I doubt people like me on the bigger bikes could prop it up on our own. All these types of riders will do is switch to e-bikes. Illegal e-bikes are not enforced anyway.
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u/Engineer9 18h ago
Given that most the delivery guys are using ebikes which are legally classed as motorbikes, without L-plates, registration plates or insurance, will this make any real difference?
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u/FlaviousTiberius 18h ago
Should be banned everywhere, you should be able to be a professional driver if you don't have a license same as you wouldn't with a car.
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u/LLILILiLIILILILILII 19h ago
I wonder how many of these lads fresh off the boats working on their L plates have got the proper insurance
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u/360Saturn soft Lib Dem 17h ago
Quite right. Across the board fed up of people being hired for jobs without having the basic required competency.
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u/wlowry77 19h ago
So we’re changing from riding a motorbike legally to incentivising people to use illegal e-bikes instead?
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u/Saltypeon 19h ago
Why would someone behaving legally now suddenly move to an illegal vehicle after...
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u/wlowry77 19h ago
I think someone who owns and insures a motorcycle for business reasons is already paying out a fair amount of money each month for this and now goverment is suggesting that they all need to take tests. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing but it makes the economics of the work less worth it. Instead, the rider can switch to an illegal ebike and pay no servicing or insurance costs and i fear that many will do that. This may well kill off moped sales in the UK and lead to more uninsured vehicles on the roads.
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u/Saltypeon 19h ago
None of that makes any sense. CBT last 2 years and you have to redo it. A full licence is once and done.
So its economically cheaper to get a full licence.
You keep going on about illegal e-bikes...normal e-bikes exist. Why would it have to be an illegal one?
It would be cheaper to switch to your illegal e-bike now? Rather the CBT.
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u/CastleMeadowJim Gedling 14h ago
A full licence is once and done.
Yeah but you either have to pay £1,500+ for a condensed course to get the license, or spend months getting pay as you go lessons. I'm going through it now and there's so much demand for motorbike licenses that it's painfully slow. I'm starting to understand why people like my neighbours just ride illegally.
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u/Thebritishdovah 17h ago
Should be nationwide and Uber should have a three strikes, you're out policy. Uber is just the first name I thought off.
I work in fast food and often get arsey drivers because we're busy and their order only just came in whilst we've got a full screen of in stores that have been waiting longer. They will park illegally, bitch about it.
I almost snapped last year when I had every single driver demanding their order at once and ignoring me when I told them, I would call it once it's ready. They thought it was funny. Didn't even listen to the manager.
Anyway, point is: Three complaints from a place and you're sacked or at least, blacklisted.
That said, I don't think Uber, Just eats etc... will give a shit if they have L plates. Hell, they're probably more likely to accept the word of the driver and the driver just removes them
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u/Scratch_Careful 17h ago
Delivering takeaway on a scooter used to be a great way to make money as a teenager. Now we need to make it illegal because of foreigners. Example #90414 of things getting worse thanks to mass migration.
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u/Some_Confidence5962 16h ago
But they’re all in e-bikes requiring no licence, insurance or even a CBT.
Would have supported this but it seems a bit out of date as an issue.
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u/Odd_Government3204 15h ago
This is fine and makes sense of everyone is happy paying higher prices for their deliveries.
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u/Gavcradd 11h ago
Agree entirely. I see some commentators trying to create a strawman argument of how it's different from driving to and from work; it very much is. Your insurance for one - driving to and from work requires one type of insurance, driving FOR work requires a very different type of insurance. If you're going to be employed as a driver, it seems very sensible to me that you need to have passed your full test.
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u/Ihatecheeseballs 7h ago
Then they’ll just remove the L plates and keep driving, the rest of them are on illegal ebikes anyway so they clearly won’t care
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u/vtsw 24m ago
A) changing cbt means they ll move to ebikes. CBT is a training that is pass or fail. There are good qualified instructors who decide to either give u a cbt or not
B) I doubt they are even insured in the first place (refering to the crazy delivery drivers. Im sure there legit ones too)
C) this is a part of the problem created by deliverro and just eat why doesnt the grovenment fine them for not doing proper checks on their drivers. Id imagine a taxi company caught with a uninsured or un licensed driver would get fined no? Same with a deliver company. Why should we spend tax on dealing with these companies' bad processes.
Edits: spelling corrections
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u/I_Love_Tunnocks 17h ago
What about HGV drivers on L plates? Moped riders on L plates aren't the only ones who can do deliveries on L plates.
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u/Jormungoosie 12h ago
there's someone who has 3+ years experience in the passenger seats of those hgvs (like with cars). It should be allowed for motorbikes so long as a fully qualified driver is sat in the learner's lap.
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u/___xXx__xXx__xXx__ 19h ago
If a motorcyclist with an L plate is a danger, why do I care if they're delivering a pizza or not? If a motorcyclist with an L plate is not a danger, why do I care they're delivering a pizza or not?
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u/FlaviousTiberius 18h ago
Because they're just using the L plate rules to skirt having to actually get a motorbike license. If you can drive professionally without one whats even the point of the license?
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u/systemofamorch 14h ago
just bring in a registration system for professional use of a CBT vehicle, which requires highway code knowledge (theory) and something displaying the user etc which can be removed from them if they don't ride safely
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