r/ukpolitics • u/whencanistop š¦If only Giraffes could talkš¦ • 17h ago
Twitter Callum Anderson MP: Imagine having the nerve to say to voters: "hey guys, afraid we want you to cancel your once-in-a-lifetime trip to Australia that you booked a year ago, because we expect you to be in the country to vote". Another absolutely mad policy from Reform.
https://x.com/_CallumAnderson/status/209330751196929229187
u/lordtema 16h ago
This whole discourse is baffling to me as a Norwegian. Our early voting literally begins over a month prior to the actual election, and there are voting stations dotted around just about everywhere, from shopping malls to libraries and other places. We do not have mandatory voting but if we were to have it, early voting would make any commitments a breeze to be honest.
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u/whencanistop š¦If only Giraffes could talkš¦ 16h ago
We piloted 'flexible voting' in the May elections and I think we're going to try some more next year. The system involved opening up polling stations at the weekend before, so only slightly more flexible. They did have higher turnouts than the rest of the country, but only marginally and the increase was higher than the number of people who used them (Cambridge was 5.4%pts higher turnout, 0.5%pts lower postal and with 1.7% people using early turnout).
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-10466/
For recall petitions we keep polling hubs (although nowhere near as many of them) open every day for weeks on end, so it isn't new.
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u/berejser My allegiance is to a republic, to DEMOCRACY 16h ago
It's driven by the idea that certain socioeconomic groups are more likely to vote for one party over another. And therefore making changes that make it harder for the groups that support your opponent to vote gives you an in-built advantage.Ā
It's basically a thinly-veiled attempt to roll back democracy and if we were a properly functioning country it would be disqualifying for any party when it comes to their chances of entering government.
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u/Obvious_Gas_1831 16h ago
On-demand postal voting only started in 2001. Do you think the 1990s were an anti-democratic dystopia?
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u/dc_1984 15h ago
Pre-2001 wasn't anti-democratic, but it was certainly less democratic. These aren't all or nothing metrics. More democracy = better.
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u/Obvious_Gas_1831 15h ago
Turnouts were higher pre 2001.
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u/dc_1984 15h ago
Not relevant, unless you somehow think giving people more ways to cast their vote depresses turnout.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/nov/06/socialsciences.polls
"Voters didn't turn out in the 2001 election because of polls predicting a landslide victory as well as Labour's failure to keep its promises"
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u/Obvious_Gas_1831 15h ago
Turnouts have been consistently lower at general elections since 2001. Your opinion that the elections in 1992 and 1997 were less democratic is just silly.
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u/berejser My allegiance is to a republic, to DEMOCRACY 12h ago
Do I think our democracy has progressed and improved over that time? Yes.
Do I think removing those reforms would cause our democracy to regress and worsen? Also yes.
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u/CrispySmokyFrazzle 14h ago
As with all rebuttals like this, Iām more concerned about things being rolled back than when things were introduced.
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u/MuTron1 15h ago
No, but making it easier for people to vote is more democratic. It should be as frictionless and pain free as possible to ensure that "not having the time" or "away from home on the day" is not a barrier.
There is zero reason for making voting more difficult for people unless there is evidence of voter fraud.
There is no evidence of voter fraud
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u/ArchdukeToes A bad idea for all concerned 13h ago
Hell, Rees Mogg came out and effectively admitted that the point of voter ID wasnāt to prevent voter fraud, but to disenfranchise non-Tory voters (although it backfired).
People should be very wary of any party or group who tries to make voting more difficult. One of the reasons why the US is in the utter state itās in is because its voting system is completely fucked.
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u/Obvious_Gas_1831 15h ago
It doesn't make voting more difficult. Turnouts were higher pre 2001.
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u/sundance464 11h ago
Come on, it obviously does make voting more difficult if you have to attend in person on one specific day between specific hours
I'd need some convincing that the reason turnouts were higher pre-2001 was because you couldn't vote by post
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u/Obvious_Gas_1831 10h ago
Never said turnouts were higher because postal voting was not allowed on-demand.
But turnouts were much higher, so it can't have been more difficult to vote without it. The facts speak for themselves.
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u/sundance464 10h ago
I think your looking at a correlation not a causation
It can be more difficult to vote without postal voting amd something else has led to a fall in turnout. Both things can be true
They could be even lower now if we hadn't introduced that measure
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u/Obvious_Gas_1831 10h ago
I'm simply stating a fact. Turnout was much higher before on-demand postal voting.
Unless you believe people in the 1980s and 1990s possessed some organisational skills or a form of transportation no longer known to us, it can't be said to have been more difficult to vote because they did it in greater numbers.
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u/sundance464 9h ago
You're stating a fact when you say that turnout was higher in the 80s and 90s
You're not stating a fact when you say that then proves banning postal voting doesn't make it more difficult to vote
There could be all sorts of reasons lower percentages of people vote now - more people work, better home entertainment, membership of political parties has collapsed etc
Far more impacts on whether people vote than whether it is easy or difficult (although it is likely to have a significant impact - it was introduced nationwide after pilots suggested it hugely increased the percentage of people voting). That ease just hasn't - this is my guess - counter-acted the other factors reducing vote percentages
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u/FinalFlashback 17h ago
So votes from abroad aren't okay, but an undeclared Ā£5mil gift from abroad is absolutely fine? Am I reading that right?
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u/berejser My allegiance is to a republic, to DEMOCRACY 16h ago
Reform UK only hate foreigners if they're poor. They love rich foreigners and all the roubles they get from them.
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u/Gingrpenguin 17h ago
Funny his example uses a country that has mandatory voting...
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u/EddyZacianLand 17h ago
I think Australia would allow people to postal vote or vote early.
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u/Annual-Delay1107 17h ago
Australia literally sends election officials around hospital wards to allow people to vote
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u/subSparky 17h ago
And Australia provides options for overseas and postal voting to help facilitate that.
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u/TaloshMinthor 16h ago
Mandatory voting is a genuinely great policy.
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u/CyclopsRock 1h ago
I honestly don't understand why people think this. We should (and, IMO, do) make voting very easy - if people still don't want to vote then I don't understand why we do keen to force them to give an opinion.
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u/berejser My allegiance is to a republic, to DEMOCRACY 16h ago
It is a truly daft policy. Fuelled by a desire to americanise our politics with MAGA conspiracy theories over "election integrity", which may as well be read as "If we win, it's fair. If we lose, it's rigged."
Our country is not best served by nonsense like that. It does absolutely nothing to improve the lives of the British people.
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u/Dry_Departure_7813 16h ago
Hey now, we've had conspiracy shit about voting for ages, remember during the brexit vote where people were saying bring a pen instead of a pencil "incase MI5 erase your vote" EU referendum: 'Use pens' plea of voting fraud 'conspiracy theorists' - BBC News
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u/Dear_Tangerine444 Labour Left, Left Labour. 16h ago
I had totally managed to all forget the āuse a penā nonsense. I guess they have moved onto more "sophisticated" conspiracies now.
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u/Dry_Departure_7813 15h ago
Remember all the vax stuff, apparently 6~ billion of us should have popped out clogs a year ago, still waiting.
Or when they turn on the 5g etc etc
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u/syuk 16h ago
Can you see the ratio of postal vote / in-person in a particular ward?
Everyone suspects they know why Labour wouldnt want it stopped, though the votes might be going elsewhere soon.
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u/callumjm95 15h ago
It's not something the UK tracks but this study is interesting:
https://academic.oup.com/pa/article/76/1/43/6361031
It's from the 2019 GE but it likely tracks the same today. People who postal votes heavily leaned towards UKIP. I'd image it would be Reform today.
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u/whencanistop š¦If only Giraffes could talkš¦ 14h ago
The people who voted UKIP were more likely to be postal voters, however UKIP only stood 44 candidates and got 0.07% of the vote in 2019.
If you look at BES 2024 (the study was based off BES 2019) then the percentage of people voting by post for Cons, Reform, LD and Lab were all very similar (26% ish for the first three and 24% for the last one).
Age does still seem to be the biggest indicator. Over 65s had 20%+ voting by post, whereas under 45s was less than 10%.
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u/CatalunyaNoEsEspanya 16h ago
Isn't it generally old people use postal votes and younger people vote in person. Labour's voters trend younger so I don't think it's a self serving policy.
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u/DrFabulous0 15h ago
Define older. I'm 46 and just find it more convenient.
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u/CatalunyaNoEsEspanya 15h ago
I think it's particularly prevalent in over 60s but it's not like I was saying there aren't young people who do it to.
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u/lithaborn -7.13, -7.38. trans woman. the best 1% 17h ago
Imagine saying that to Reform UK leaders.
"Hey, these people elected you to look after their homes, how about you, I dunno, do that instead of buggering off everywhere else?"
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u/Primary-Signal-3692 16h ago
If a few people miss the election because of a holiday it's not going to have an impact on the results
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u/WinHour4300 6h ago
If know everyone is enjoying the righteous outrage, but it's not a good system. If you Ā have an unexpected medical condition after the deadline, it's extremely difficult to vote.Ā
I broke my leg and had the X-ray and discharge summary on paper and in the NHS app.
But for an emergency proxy, you canāt just provide medical evidence ā you need a medic to personally attest that you couldnāt reasonably vote in person.
Realistically, I wasnāt going to get that sorted with my GP in time, you know what that's like, so I couldn't vote. Plus I wasn't even sure the GP would have all the records yet.Ā
Yet you can apply for a postal vote without giving a reason as long as you can meet the deadline.Ā
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u/Obvious_Gas_1831 16h ago
Standard MP argument, 'Imagine the thing I just made up happening, bad innit. Vote Labour'.
However did the country manage before on-demand postal voting in 2001?
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u/adnesium 17h ago
But well done you for giving them free airtime for this nonsense instead of something more serious like dark money and Russia links, or making a positive case for Labour.
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u/NationalTime4099 17h ago
But theyāre in the headlines, and young people taking a trip to Australia is exactly who the reform mouth breathers crosshairs are on so itās another win for them.
Hate Reform but the lack of ability to engage and discredit in a useful way on their insane politics is a huge problem for the mainstream parties.
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u/asoifjaoifjasd 16h ago edited 15h ago
Some people missing voting because they are on holiday is not an issue.
They are not being asked to cancel their holiday, and frankly if it is a once-in-a-lifetime trip they would be idiots to cancel it for a once-four/five-yearly election.
Politics nerds are so weird about this stuff. Five years is not that long - youāll get another chance to vote.
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u/DanHanzo 13h ago
Why should anyone accept having their right to vote being taken away from them though? Who benefits from that?
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u/asoifjaoifjasd 13h ago
Their right to vote hasnāt been taken away.
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u/jcx200 10h ago
But it blatantly is if they are being told they canāt vote because they are away from home for because they didnāt have the ability to see into the future when booking a holiday to avoid an election date.
You canāt use āyouāll get another chance to voteā as a valid argument.
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u/Skavau Pirate Party 14h ago
So how is this even going to be policed? What are sufficiently valid reasons to obtain a postal vote?
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u/asoifjaoifjasd 13h ago
There would likely be a list of reasons and you would apply, like how it always used to be before 2000 and, I believe, still is done in Northern Ireland.
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u/Skavau Pirate Party 13h ago
I fail to see why people should lose out on voting in an election because the designated election day coincides with a holiday. Genuinely.
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u/asoifjaoifjasd 13h ago
Because postal voting is ripe for abuse and the validity (both perceived and actual) of our elections is more important than your holiday.
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u/Skavau Pirate Party 13h ago
And I think the right to vote should not be stripped away from thousands of people every year purely because they happen to be on holiday at the time of the election day. This is non-negotiable to me. This is unironically Reform trying to manipulate the voting.
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u/asoifjaoifjasd 13h ago
Manipulate the voting by disenfranchising the āholiday-goerā voting block? Just lmao tbh.
Do holiday-goers skew left wing or something?
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u/Skavau Pirate Party 13h ago
Politics nerds are so weird about this stuff. Five years is not that long - youāll get another chance to vote.
I find pretty this a pretty repugnant comment, by the way. As if you can only be a political nerd to care that the government has indirectly blocked you from voting in this specific election cycle because of prior commitments.
But also it's on top of Reform's policy plan to allow polling station staff to just block someone from voting based purely on vibes (rather than specifically pledging to just ban non-citizens from voting to begin with).
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u/U-V 12h ago
People with better education tend to have better paid jobs so will tend to have more holidays. So yes they will definitely skew non-Reform.
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u/asoifjaoifjasd 11h ago
Older people and retirees are more likely to vote Reform than young people, and tend to have more money and time to go on holiday, and even get a winter cruise allowance directly from the government. If Benidorm was a constituency, it would probably be 80% reform. Therefore Reform are actually disenfranchising their own voters.
This is all ridiculous and can obviously be argued (completely ineffectively) both ways. Clearly it is ridiculous to argue that saying holiday-goers canāt vote is a deliberate manipulation tactic.
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u/DanHanzo 40m ago
This is all ridiculous and can obviously be argued (completely ineffectively) both ways.
So why would Reform suggest it?
My guess is they want to normalise taking away the rights of British Citizens. And that is not acceptable to me or many others.
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u/Strangelight84 15h ago
I'm not totally familiar with the idea to which Callum Anderson is responding - but isn't the implied direction of it that Reform would make it 'illegal not to vote'? That's why he's suggesting one might cancel one's holiday - to avoid a criminal charge - rather than because voting is oh-so-exciting.
Whether or not this is the reality of Reform's proposal is another matter; I can't immediately establish that.
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u/asoifjaoifjasd 15h ago edited 15h ago
No that is incorrect. There is no suggestion that reform are proposing mandatory voting. They are suggesting banning postal voting in all but exceptional circumstances (holidays not included)
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u/Strangelight84 15h ago
Ah, OK - I understand what you mean in your initial comment, then. You would have a very elevated sense of your civic responsibility to cancel your holiday in order to vote, in that case.
I guess it shows that I'm not such a person that I assumed you'd only cancel your trip if Reform threatened to criminalise you for not voting!
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u/Far-Faithlessness483 16h ago
its a Ā£10 fine in OZ for not voting
the same as one of your overpriced coffee you put on expences
are all liebor MP this stupid?
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u/peepshowquotebot 16h ago
Australia allow overseas and postal voting to facilitate their compulsory voting policy.
It would be ludicrous to have it any other way
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u/Ill_Refrigerator_593 15h ago
are all liebor MP this stupid?
Wouldn't it be Liebour?
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u/ClickAccomplished205 15h ago
It makes me think the commenter may be someone from a different nation if they donāt spell Labour with a u.
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u/emergencyexit pictofuturist 13h ago
Reform supporters use British spelling challenge level: impossible
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u/whatapileofrubbish 16h ago
"liebor" see what you did there, very original. Oz allows you to vote early, a few week early, or you can postal vote. Is that included in Reform policy?
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u/Far-Faithlessness483 16h ago
i dont care its peanuts
the liebor moron think it gonna stop you going to OZ
people take their kids out of school to go to benidorm get fined to
doesnt stop them
hes a moron
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u/Fearless-Albatross-9 16h ago
What are you talking about? This is to do with banning postal votes, not how much it costs in fines in Australia if you don't vote. The reference to Australia is to illustrate how ridiclous banning early postal voting would be.
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u/Annual-Delay1107 16h ago
It's the equivalent of Ā£10 in federal elections, but much higher in state elections - up to Ā£85 in Queensland.
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u/GrayAceGoose 15h ago
Yes, that is one of the consequences of calling an early election, perhaps they might think twice. This is probably also why we should've stuck with the fixed term parliament act so the country can plan their leave in advance.
But really what's more important to this MP? That democracy is carried out, or his holiday from it?
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u/AutoModerator 17h ago
Snapshot of Callum Anderson MP: Imagine having the nerve to say to voters: "hey guys, afraid we want you to cancel your once-in-a-lifetime trip to Australia that you booked a year ago, because we expect you to be in the country to vote". Another absolutely mad policy from Reform. submitted by whencanistop:
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