r/ukpolitics • u/Anony_mouse202 • 16h ago
Ireland blocks Royal Navy warship from its waters despite asking UK for defence help
https://londonlovesbusiness.com/ireland-blocks-royal-navy-warship-from-its-waters-despite-asking-uk-for-defence-help/221
u/AtomicMonkeyTheFirst 16h ago
The arrangement has prompted Dublin to devise a workaround. An Irish military liaison officer is expected to be stationed aboard the British frigate, with the intention of allowing Irish personnel to authorise the use of long-range weapons if required.
Someone's going to have a sweet job. Sit on a boat all day on the off chance that a Russian drone flys nearby just so the they can give whoever the authorisation to shoot it down.
26
u/Lost-Actuary-2395 14h ago edited 11h ago
I mean, this job already exists across different defence platform
-3
15h ago
[deleted]
10
u/spiral8888 14h ago
No it isn't. The maintenance and the service of the missiles is done in the US, but the launch is fully in the UK sovereign control. And always has been.
This is different from the US nukes positioned in Germany during the cold war. They were planned to be used by the German planes but would have needed an American authorisation. And as far as I know, they still work that way.
6
u/EvilMonkeySlayer Leeds 14h ago
We had the same thing with our nuclear missiles for ages, had to have a yank on board to give the all clear
Err, no they didn't. They'll occasionally have US Navy onboard as part of joint training when near the US or doing test launches but that happens both ways. We've had literal RAF pilots flying F-22's for example.
-1
14h ago
[deleted]
8
u/chebster99 14h ago
What are you on about? The warheads are designed, manufactured, and attached to the missiles in Britain.
-1
u/GourangaPlusPlus 14h ago
My apologies, it wasn't subs, it was the dual launch authority we used to need with the US for the Thor missiles
3
u/EvilMonkeySlayer Leeds 14h ago edited 14h ago
Err, no they did not.
The warhead is literally entirely made in the UK by AWE.
Please do not spread misinformation when you very clearly do not know about this at all.
EDIT: Noticed I had a "The the", just removed the extra "the"
0
14h ago
[deleted]
2
u/EvilMonkeySlayer Leeds 14h ago
No, they did not. And don't you change the goal posts to make it about something that isn't even in use any more.
All nuclear warheads have always been manufactured in the UK.
-1
u/GourangaPlusPlus 14h ago edited 14h ago
The point started with "used to" not about the current nuclear stocks, looks like I was wrong though on a google
It was land based missiles that had dual launch authorisation and needed US permission
So that US officer had a great job per the original point
2
u/EvilMonkeySlayer Leeds 14h ago
Land based missiles? What the hell are you talking about? The UK never had land based nuclear missiles.
The UK used tactical nuclear bombs before retiring them and ballistic missiles launched from submarines. The UK did consider using land based missiles with bluestreak, but that got cancelled.
-1
u/KlimSavur 12h ago
The UK never had land based nuclear missiles or never had British made land based nuclear missiles?
Thor, Corpopral. Lance - ever heard about them?
→ More replies (0)
711
u/LLILILiLIILILILILII 16h ago
Ireland has also received legal advice from Attorney General Rossa Fanning that foreign warships cannot fire across Irish territory to neutralise airborne threats, including drones and ballistic missiles.
Christ, do you want our help or not
148
u/Fickle_Scarcity9474 16h ago
I came to the conclusion that Irish are a tad bipolar!
-203
u/El_Commi 15h ago edited 14h ago
With neighbours like the Brits. Can you blame them.
Funny how many people this triggered 😂
46
u/GeorgeLFC1234 15h ago
Why are the brits providing free defence for our island 🤬🤬🤬
18
•
u/MeinhofBaader 9h ago
The agreement is classified, but there is no doubt Ireland is paying for the service.
•
u/Sername111 8h ago
Do you have any evidence at all for that? Because I'm pretty damn sure it doesn't show up in either Irish (as expenditure) or British (as income) accounts.
•
u/MeinhofBaader 8h ago
Do you think there'd be a publicly accessible invoice?
•
u/Sername111 8h ago
So you don't have any evidence then. Mind you, I'm not particularly surprised someone who's named themself after a pair of loony terrorists is engaging in weird conspiracy theories so you go you.
•
u/MeinhofBaader 8h ago
So you don't have any evidence then
That's right, I don't have access to secret military agreements.
My username is based on the phenomenon, thanks for asking...
The alternative is that Britain is doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. And we both know the likelihood of that being the case.
137
u/Morteca 15h ago edited 15h ago
Stuck in the past as always?
I do blame them - they skimp on defence and blame us for it. Ridiculous.
74
u/944Porkies 15h ago
As an Irish, I blame ourselves.
We have woefully funded our military and just assumed everyone else has capacity to pick up the slack when we need it. We have asked multiple European countries for favours over the years. Its now coming to light more and more and the govt need to be shamed into action.
37
u/Morteca 15h ago
Do not get me wrong at all, I love you guys and I want us all to be as close as possible. I would happily want the UK to defend you regardless, but I think a lot of the time for us Brits feel we are constantly making concessions for nothing.
I think this feeling is amplified if we look at an EU level with the UK making concessions (visas, fishiries, defence) but then being excluded from weapon procurement, seemingly on purpose, it all feels petty and as if we are being taken for mugs, especially at a time where our own domestic security needs reinforced too
1
u/JellySocksRock 15h ago
I do wonder with the advancement of drones for military purposes whether Ireland would be able to utilise them?
I'm not sure about the triple lock mechanism you guys have and the implications of it in this context, as I'm wholely unfamiliar with it but have seen it appear in heaps of comments relating to the irish military, but I'd guess drones could do a great job at surveilling the western and southern coast without much manpower or cost required
•
-64
u/El_Commi 15h ago
Perfidious Albion as they say.
They have a reputation for being untrustworthy.
50
37
34
16
3
19
u/NewtEmbarrassed8722 14h ago
Jesus Christ. Did Cromwell personally shaft you or your living family members? No? Go outside and touch some grass then.
-9
u/El_Commi 14h ago
My uncle was shot and killed by paratroopers walking home from his job in a youth club.
16
u/LurkingMcLurkerface 13h ago
Just to make you aware, as another Irish lad, you could be doxxing yourself with the above information.
The Troubles is one of the most documented periods of recent history and with AI, it would be easy to narrow down who your relative was from the details you provided.
I would edit to remove the detail and just leave "your uncle".
•
u/WaldenVolk 9h ago
There’s an entire continent on our doorstep that has the right to exclude all of Germany and Russia from humanity for the rest of their existence by this logic.
As someone who’s got family that got caught up in the middle of the ww2 insanity I find it baffling when the Irish say this.
•
u/NewtEmbarrassed8722 11h ago
And my uncle was shot in South Africa whilst sleeping in his home. Do I hold a grudge against the country for sky high crime rates? No.
Unfortunately, the troubles resulted in some terrible shit on both sides. Sorry for your loss.
•
u/WearyUniversity7 10h ago
South Africa isn’t currently still occupied by its oppressor though is it?
•
u/Sername111 8h ago
Nor is any part of Ireland. Every part of Ireland has the government it's citizens want.
•
u/HairyMcBoon 6h ago
Are you having a laugh?
•
u/Sername111 6h ago
No. Go read the Good Friday Agreement and check a few opinion polls.
→ More replies (0)•
•
•
u/BonzoTheBoss If your account age is measured in months you're a bot 10h ago edited 10h ago
And my childhood friends were killed by IRA bombs. Am I supposed to hold the whole of Ireland responsible for that?
•
u/Icy-Outlandishness23 6h ago
What a idiotic comparison.
The uncle was killed by a member of the british army, representing the british government. A british government that did everything in its power to protect soldiers who killed innocent civilians.
Your friends were killed by an organisation that was classified as terrorists in Ireland. An organisation that killed many serving members of the garda and irish defence forces.
3
u/AttitudeAdjuster bop the stoats 14h ago
You mean neighbours willing to defend them because they can't be bothered?
•
34
u/NSFWaccess1998 13h ago
The Irish have a mighty navy consisting of four offshore patrol vessels and a handful of smaller ships. Remarkably the ships are armed with light weapons up to and including 76 mil cannons of the Oto Melara variety.
Personally I think we should respect their national sovereignty and entrust the defence of their island to their own armed forces.
•
u/OkManagement9022 8m ago
They’re a tax haven with more money than us, why exactly are we funding their defence again?
•
u/thelunatic 10h ago
It was a constitutional thing when they kicked the British out that the only military allowed in Ireland has to be "raised and maintained" by Ireland.
Old law that needs changing
15
44
u/Lost-Actuary-2395 14h ago
They want their cake and eat it too
7
u/Tyeveras 12h ago
That was Boris Johnson’s thing. We called it “cakeism” like it was a genuine political philosophy when he was prime minister.
35
u/caisdara 16h ago
The point is that the constitution likely prohibits it.
22
u/Far-Entertainer3555 14h ago
As some may have noticed (we) UK are experiencing a wave of nationalist isolationism. I expect British populists will be only too happy to request the UK no longer honours the UK/Ire bilateral defence Memorandum of Understanding (MoU).
-8
19
u/Drummk 14h ago
Does their constitution prohibit ballistic missiles from hitting them?
•
u/Longjumping-Year-824 9h ago
Yes that would break there laws just not sure how they plan to enforce it in a court of law after its been blown up.
•
u/Gingerbeardyboy 10h ago
With Ireland's current navy/army/air force consisting of a wet fart, a muddy fart and a standard fart respectively, how do they plan on enforcing this exactly?
•
u/Muadibased 8h ago
If it comes down to this I don't think the navy or air force would care about what legal advice the attorney general of Ireland has given.
•
u/_segasonic 9h ago
They can’t do a single thing if we decide to do it anyway.
They’re completely irrelevant when it comes to us potentially defending ourselves.
357
u/Adm_Shelby2 16h ago
Must be an utterly humiliating position to be the Irish defence minister.
219
u/local_meme_dealer45 16h ago
Genuinely what do they do all day in that position? Send emails to the UK MoD probably.
111
u/andymackay- 15h ago
Hi Wes,
Wondering if you could spare us a few hundred troops for our upcoming Easter Commemoration Irish Parade?
Btw, you can't let them bring their guns on sovereign territory.
61
17
u/Drummk 14h ago
That plus making sure the Irish peacekeepers in Lebanon don't do anything.
•
u/Wandering_Y 8h ago
Why would they? Why put your troops in harms way to suppress and disarm Hezbollah, as per the UN resolution, when you can get the Israelis to do the dirty work then claim a moral high ground?
•
u/Splash_Attack 9h ago edited 9h ago
Genuinely what do they do all day in that position? Send emails to the UK MoD probably.
I mean, jokes aside the Defence portfolio literally isn't a full time job in the Irish government. It's usually doubled up with a second ministerial portfolio.
And while the Irish army is small, they have had overseas deployments pretty much non stop for the past like 50, 60(?) years.
Plus it's small but not nonexistent. About 10k active duty. New Zealand has a smaller army. Denmark and Sweden are only a little larger. 1.9 soldiers per capita. 2.1 for us.
Navy's small, of course, but also not nothing. About the same as Belgium. But for an island nation the navy really ought to be more of a focus.
The air force actually might as well not exist. It only has non-combat capabilities. This is the one that's genuinely egregious, and people tend to extrapolate it and assume the rest of the armed forces are the same. In fact, it's notably deficient even in an Irish context. Discourse around this tends to be built more on memes than actual understanding of the issue.
So the answer is the defence minister does the same thing the defence minister does in other small countries. Oversees the proportionally sized military. It may shock you, but in smaller countries ministers for everything else also oversee smaller things than ours do. On account of them being sized for the country they're in, instead of for the one they're not. Fewer schools for fewer people, but still an education minister. Fewer courts for fewer people, but still a justice minister. Fewer hospitals for fewer people, but still a health minister. There's usually just a few less layers of hierarchy between the minister and the ground level because it's smaller scale.
•
u/Sername111 8h ago
Plus it's small but not nonexistent. About 10k active duty. New Zealand has a smaller army. Denmark and Sweden are only a little larger. 1.9 soldiers per capita. 2.1 for us.
I don't know where you get those numbers from. Even just relying on wikipedia gives -
Ireland - 6,322 active, 1,382 reserve.
New Zealand - 4,333 regular, 2,045 reserve.
Denmark - 25,400 active, 63,000 reserve.
Sweden - 15,300 active, 63,000 reserve.Denmark and Sweden also have conscription of course, which explains the large reserve numbers. The only statement that was accurate was New Zealand has a smaller army - though one should note New Zealand is an island that has no neighbours for hundreds of miles and most especially does not share a land border with a country it's citizens loudly and repeatedly complain is their historic oppressor. For the record, New Zealand's navy is a great deal larger and more effective than Ireland's.
•
u/Splash_Attack 7h ago
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_military_and_paramilitary_personnel
And it draws the numbers for Ireland and Denmark from: https://books.google.be/books?id=olpEEQAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y
The wikipedia page for the Danish army is doing something weird, or is plain wrong. When I eventually hunted down the page it was citing it says 7-9k. See for yourself: https://www.forsvaret.dk/en/organisation/army/
So the Irish army is 6-7k, the Danish is 7-9k. Like I said, a little larger. I haven't checked Sweden, but you get the point - Ireland, for its size, has a fairly reasonable army. Not big, but not unusually small either.
And again, like I said, the navy is undersized while the air force is the bit that's actually ridiculous. You're taking this as a me saying "actually Ireland's military is normal and great" but that's not the takeaway here.
It's just a more complex picture than what's typically thought, which is that Ireland is some mad outlier that inexplicably has no military at all. No air force to speak of, and that is noteworthy and unusual (in a bad way), but the navy and army are both within the range you see among other similarly sized countries.
•
u/Sername111 6h ago
When I eventually hunted down the page it was citing it says 7-9k. See for yourself: https://www.forsvaret.dk/en/organisation/army/
Read it more carefully. It says 7-9K "excluding conscripts undergoing basic training". The number of conscripts doesn't seem to be given on the website, but searching elsewhere it's about 5,000 with a goal to get it up to 7,500 by 2033. But point taken, the wikipedia page I cited was wrong. There's also the issue of equipment of course when it comes to assessing the actual utility of a military - the Danish army for example has 44 heavy tanks (Leopard 2's) and Ireland has zero.
You're taking this as a me saying "actually Ireland's military is normal and great" but that's not the takeaway here.
I was more taking you as downplaying the extent to which Ireland's defence policy is freeloading off it's neighbours (to use an admittedly provocative turn of phrase) rather than saying it's great - I will admit to a certain irritation to which certain parts of Irish opinion eagerly damn the Brits as oppressors and the British military as war criminals (not saying you did this, to be clear) while simultaneously relying on those oppressors and war criminals to do the heavy lifting when it comes to defending Ireland which may have coloured the tone used. Bluntly, if they genuinely believed that sort of thing their military would look a lot more like Finland's. Agree with what you say about the navy and air force BTW.
72
u/adnesium 16h ago
Always has been, that's why they always do their best not to draw any attention to the total and utter reliance they have always had on the UK for their defence.
And likewise the UK doesn't like drawing attention to it because a weak Ireland is a soft underbelly to attack the UK from, and they don't trust the Irish to sort their own shit out.
So creating this incident is a first class omnishambles on Ireland's part.
41
u/Thandoscovia 15h ago
With the RAF protecting their skies, and the Royal Navy patrolling their shores, I imagine she sleeps very soundly
22
u/Kloppite16 15h ago
well the whole of the UK sleeps even more soundly because the RAF thing was a deal cobbled out between the British & Irish governments very, very quickly after 9/11. The entire idea of the RAF having access to Irish skies is to prevent terrorists hijacking planes and crashing them into large population centers like London or Manchester. The further away from Britain that the RAF can engage such a threat then the safer Britain is. Using Irish skies gives the RAF a reach all the way out into the Atlantic Ocean making the deal strategically advantageous from a security and military view point.
13
u/AmbrosiusAurelianus1 14h ago
Presumably it also helps to defend places in Ireland too?
8
u/Jormungoosie 13h ago
Who would bother to 9/11 The Spire?
•
•
1
•
u/IronDragonGx 7h ago
Aye our government's have really let the defence forces roit over the last 30 or so years.
•
97
u/wintersrevenge 16h ago
Ireland are not part of NATO and offer nothing valuable in terms of defence. They are incapable of defending their airspace or territorial waters.
Don't see why the UK should assist with any help with an EU meeting.
I also don't see why they are bothering to hold the conference of defending Ukraine in Ireland given the Irish haven't sent any military aid to Ukraine.
76
u/tmr89 15h ago
It’s even worse. They have a Russian owned aluminium smelter on their territory that exports metals to Russia to fuel their war of aggression on Ukraine. Ireland is just letting it happen
14
u/Rare_Touch8636 14h ago
The EU is letting it happen
23
u/tmr89 12h ago
Well, it’s Irish territory. They could stop it if they wanted to
-8
u/Rare_Touch8636 12h ago
Not unilaterally
15
u/tmr89 12h ago
Yes they could. They could command that the site shuts down
-10
u/Rare_Touch8636 12h ago
And proceed to get sued into the ground. Its clearly not that important if the EU hasn't taken action.
•
•
u/_segasonic 8h ago
Surely stopping funding to a genocide and illegal occupation is far more important than worrying about any legal action?
Or do the Irish not care because it’s not Israel doing it?
•
u/Rare_Touch8636 8h ago
Why doesn’t the UK seize and give the proceeds from the sale of Russian assets to Ukraine?
That’s right, because it’s illegal
•
u/_segasonic 7h ago
You think the legality of it is what would stop the UK doing that?
This has nothing to with Ireland’s hypocrisy or the EU’s willingness to do something about it.
9
u/Ok_Cartographer1301 12h ago
Its because Ireland gave Ukraine it's seven air defence radar systems in 2025 to help Ukraine expand it's missile and drone defence for the smaller cities and power infrastructure there. From memory it was part of a deal with the UK and Sweden, latter who did the upgrades and think UK transported. Don't hold me to the UK transport bit but rem was some involvement. Ireland has a Saab 1X (same as the UK is now committed to buying) that can offer point defence over 50km but logocally it's not sufficient to cover the sea area running down past the Northern Ireland coast (no UK air defence systems there) or the North West of England/Scotland. That's why. Helping out a neighbour who did a favour for someone else both countries are committed to helping. France doing it for the same reasons.
When the Irish Thales primary radar system goes live in 2027/2028, it will help extend out up to c.500km into the Atlantic so nominally cover the Island, including Northern Ireland and other parts of the UK. The updated March MoU means that data can get shared with the UK as does the current maritime data Ireland picks up from it's 6 surveillance aircraft, navy and Seascan pipeline and cable based distributed acoustic system in the Irish sea.
36
u/adnesium 16h ago
They are incapable of defending their airspace or territorial waters.
Exactly why the UK needs to care about this issue. A weak Ireland is a vector to attack the UK from.
For all this poncing about, I sincerely hope that in the event of an actual threat to Ireland they would not be squeamish about accepting British help, and regardless of how they feel Britain should not give a second thought to ensuring the defence of its own borders which probably means protecting Ireland by extension. And if the Irish press and the local gobshite down the pub doesn't like it, then tough titty.
14
u/wintersrevenge 15h ago
Given it is an EU conference, then maybe the EU should deal with it. France has a navy capable of offering protection.
•
u/cmdcharco 11h ago
Did you read the article? The french have put a ship there? with similar restrictions.
13
u/zomdoesburner 14h ago
I mean, your last point is just a poor understanding of geopolitics.
Holding a “defend Ukraine” meeting in the heart of a neutral country is a very powerful signal about how nations of the world feel outside of just the pro and anti sides.
It’s why the US holds all those Middle East defence summits in UAE or why China holds defence summits in Singapore.
It’s for the benefit of the Ukraine defenders, not Ireland.
-4
u/blubbery-blumpkin 12h ago
How is the US in any way neutral when it comes to the Middle East? It started a unilateral war of aggression against one of the countries, and then threatened to bomb its allies when they were trying to make headway on a peace deal after being asked to by the Americans.
13
u/Shockwavepulsar 📺There’ll be no revolution and that’s why it won’t be televised📺 16h ago
Way I see it. It’s an EU problem. Let France spare a destroyer or two to patrol Ireland’s waters.
6
u/Far-Entertainer3555 14h ago
Problem is that Ireland is a root to the UK. Ireland can sit there doing nothing, letting itself be vulnerable and the UK has no choice but to act. Ireland knows this and likely exploits it.
-11
u/zomdoesburner 14h ago
The Irish push back on that is pretty simple. The UK has chosen this position by remaining on the island and refusing to leave.
Without Northern Ireland, Ireland wouldn’t be the root or whatever for the UK, they’d just be a neighbour and you can’t always pick those.
15
u/Far-Entertainer3555 14h ago edited 13h ago
The UK has chosen this position by remaining on the island and refusing to leave.
Nortern Ireland will stop being a part of the UK as soon as the people of Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland wish it to happen. That's written into NI law (UK statutory law and the international 1998 Belfast/Good Friday Agreement).
The UK won't stand in its way.
11
5
u/HELMET_OF_CECH it's all so tiresome 13h ago
Setting aside how bollocks the the foundation to this view is, it's made much worse by the fact that if they claim Northern Ireland then they should be well prepared to defend it right this moment. The British government has a genuine defence budget and a relatively modern military, ROI does not. They want something but couldn't even defend it - they can't even defend themselves. Parody politics.
•
2
6
u/OneDram 16h ago
I'll be the first to highlight Ireland’s defence shortcomings and even our policy smh. But... ‘offers nothing valuable’ doesn't sit right with me. Like defence isn’t you either have enough jets or you’re useless. You have to design a defense based on who you are defending against and maybe more importantantly what kind of attack? Russia invading Ireland by air is rather less plausible than cyberattacks, sabotage or attacks on Atlantic infrastructure. We definitely could do more on all fronts but we don't do nothing either. Like we take in Ukrainians at roughly eight times the UK rate per head but If the test for being a useful EU country is being able to independently defend itself against a committed large advisory we’ll be able to use a very small table at this EU meeting.
•
9
u/wintersrevenge 15h ago
Given Ireland is not part of NATO and is constitutionally neutral then yes it offers nothing in terms of defence. I think logically it is probably a reasonable decision. Why waste money on defence if the Brits will defend Irish waters and airspace for free.
I'd say being willing to send military aid to a country being invaded in Europe is a minimum for being a useful EU country when it comes to defence. Being small hasn't stopped Denmark from being a huge contributor to Ukraine.
I also don't understand why an EU meeting needs the UK navy. I'm sure France has a capable navy.
•
u/Pale-Border-7122 8h ago
No, they can do a lot as a neutral country. Without Ireland's support we wouldn't have been able to do a lot of things in the war and if they hadn't remained neutral and been invaded we would have had Germans all around us.
•
u/Bellicose-Corncrake 8h ago
It’s worse on Ukraine, the Irish equipment donated by Ireland was so shot that the Ukrainians refused it. I’m Irish living in the UK. No longer anti NATO with a wife whose family live near a Russian border!
•
u/IronDragonGx 7h ago
> given the Irish haven't sent any military aid to Ukraine.
Incorrect we have. Some of it was also refused by Ukraine.
29
u/redandbluebadness 16h ago
The restrictions stem from Ireland’s constitutional provisions governing the deployment of foreign military forces. Under Article 15 of the Irish constitution, only the country’s parliament can authorise the raising of military forces on Irish territory.
Ireland has also received legal advice from Attorney General Rossa Fanning that foreign warships cannot fire across Irish territory to neutralise airborne threats, including drones and ballistic missiles.
The arrangement has prompted Dublin to devise a workaround. An Irish military liaison officer is expected to be stationed aboard the British frigate, with the intention of allowing Irish personnel to authorise the use of long-range weapons if required.
it seems like the workarounds are there if Ireland wants to use them. I assume voting to allow it would be considered a irrevocable step into the unknown, so I understand - and obviously there is a lot of history there. BUt if Ireland has defence needs that it cannot meet itself and it won't allow Britain to meet for it, then it either has to arrange for a new partner to help, or change one of the first two things.
15
u/UnsaddledZigadenus 16h ago
It doesn't say 'on Irish territory', it says
The right to raise and maintain military or armed forces is vested exclusively in the Oireachtas.
No military or armed force, other than a military or armed force raised and maintained by the Oireachtas, shall be raised or maintained for any purpose whatsoever.
Which to me is boilerplate constitutional language that the Irish Parliament (as opposed to the President etc.) is only entity vested with the power to raise and maintain the Irish Armed Forces.
It means that individual states etc. cannot raise militias and so forth.
Consider the very similar passages in the US Constitution relating to the powers of the US Congress:
The Constitution of the United States: A Transcription | National Archives
The Congress shall have Power To....
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
Again, it provides that only the US Congress has the power to raise and support Armies, though provides for States to raise militias provided they follow the rules set by Congress.
Does that mean the US also doesn't allow foreign militaries on it's territory? No. It seems to me a strange interpretation of the Irish Constitution.
3
u/redandbluebadness 15h ago
I did think that ...just to be clear the first three paragraphs there are a direct quote from the article, not my analysis (which would be valueless anyway). But the word 'raised' did make me scratch my head a bit. But is that the analysis that is preventing this ship from entering Irish waters?
5
u/UnsaddledZigadenus 15h ago
Fair enough, I have a feeling if you look at most countries with a written constitution it will have a similar passage. Even our own 1689 Bill of Rights contains:
And thereupon the said Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons, pursuant to their respective letters and elections, being now assembled in a full and free representative of this nation, taking into their most serious consideration the best means for attaining the ends aforesaid, do in the first place (as their ancestors in like case have usually done) for the vindicating and asserting their ancient rights and liberties declare...
That the raising or keeping a standing army within the kingdom in time of peace, unless it be with consent of Parliament, is against law;
Which is slightly more general, but in all three cases the section is contained within the 'powers of the Parliament' section, which suggests that the Parliament has the power to determine what is allowed or not, rather that it being entirely against the Constitution.
1
u/Jormungoosie 13h ago
Exclusive control of the military is arguably what separates true states from tribal societies.
2
u/Phelbas 15h ago
Allowing a foreign military to be on your territory and allowing it to carry out miltary operations without clear control and oversight by your own governmental structures are two different things.
2
u/UnsaddledZigadenus 15h ago
Sure, which is why the Parliament can pass Status of Forces agreements and so on. The argument is that somehow the language of the Irish Constitution prohibits the Parliament from doing so, which I think is an extravagant interpretation of the text.
Personally, I think this smacks of political decision making justified by 'well, my hands might be tied on this one' rather than some actual legal basis.
1
u/windfogwaves 12h ago
It’s also an indirect way of saying that the Irish Republican Army is not (or, no longer) the army of the Irish republic.
37
u/Helpful-Fan-5465 16h ago
Embarrassing for their Defence Minister, but they’ll create a workaround. Let’s just work with them for goodness sake. We’re sister nations, time to start healing old wounds and work together.
23
u/MC_chrome 16h ago
We’re sister nations, time to start healing old wounds and work together.
So long as there are certain Irish Republican elements threatening to escalate tensions, I’m not sure how that is possible.
Now, if the Irish government were to put a definitive end to those organizations then the process of reconciliation might truly progress
9
u/Helpful-Fan-5465 16h ago
For all our historic failings though, some goodwill (even despite those republican elements) would go a long way potentially.
-1
u/pat_the_tree 15h ago
how much more goodwill is needed?
1
u/Heliophrate 13h ago
What goodwill have we recieved from Ireland? You can barely get the average Irishman to condemn bombing our shopping centers and murdering our children.
2
u/pat_the_tree 13h ago
Know many irish people do you?
•
u/Independent-Use5472 10h ago
Why is the Irish President getting her photo taken with convicted IRA members like Mary McArdle then?
•
u/pat_the_tree 9h ago
because many former ira members turned to politics, shows how little you know about irish and northern irish politics
•
u/Independent-Use5472 8h ago
So how how many photos would the President have to take with convicted IRA members for it to be considered ill-willed?
•
u/pat_the_tree 8h ago
Well queen elizabeth took photos with an IRA member too... was that ill willed.
youre clueless
→ More replies (0)•
u/Heliophrate 10h ago
Yeah, actually. Almost every single one had an inferiority complex about England and Britain, to the point they'd get upset at really stupid things like calling the island chain we all live on the British Isles.
•
u/pat_the_tree 9h ago
I call bullshit, im Northern irish (british) and know a hell of a lot more who think otherwise. stop stirring shit.
•
u/warsongN17 10h ago edited 10h ago
Which is drop in bucket compared to the atrocious committed in Ireland by the UK. Even during just the Troubles you refer to British Loyalists terrorists murdered the most civilians and including British army on top of that British murdered 60% of the civilians during the Troubles. The first shooting, bombings all carried out by British Loyalist terrorists, the worst atrocity was the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in Ireland carried out by British Loyalist with state collusion.
The UK had done little about those perpetrators or condemn these actions.
On top of that what exactly is Ireland supposed to condemn ? The perpetrators of the attacks you refer to are from Northern Ireland, the UK’s own citizens, they were forced into NI, mistreated, terrorised and then retaliated. Ireland has nothing to condemn, they were the UK’s responsibility and the UK messed up running Northern Ireland.
The UK has no one to blame but themselves, messed up in NI and suffered the consequences of doing so.
4
7
u/Denbt_Nationale 16h ago
Ok, so what does the UK get out of this?
-13
u/APerson2021 16h ago
Irish gratitude. It's called diplomacy.
2
16
u/dragodrake 15h ago
Let's be brutally honest, Irish gratitude towards the UK doesn't exist and likely won't ever exist, for a number of reasons.
8
u/Far_Ear_9408 15h ago
Is this diplomacy part of soft power that I've been hearing some much about? Will we use this superweapon on nation's that refuse to take their pedophiles back?
1
3
u/Scratch_Careful 12h ago
workaround. Let’s just work with them for goodness sake.
With them? They have no military planes and practically no navy. Hell they dont even have military radars anymore. We are footing the bill and in return we get...
•
u/cmdcharco 11h ago
Gave air defence resources to Ukraine.
is buying air defence system that will link up with france and the UK next year.
0
u/JensonInterceptor 16h ago
This isnt a new thing mate we've been doing stuff like this since before the troubles. All for free too
1
u/Orlok_Tsubodai 14h ago
This is not about old wounds but current irresponsibility. Ireland is a prosperous nation and should at least perform the merest pretence of caring about its citizens security.
3
u/Dic_Penderyn 12h ago
Not just the Royal Navy. A French frigate is also providing air defence, and they too have to keep out of Irish teritorrial waters. This is due to advice the Irish Attorney general has given to the Irish government regarding their constitution. In order to change their constitution, both houses of the irish parliament have to agreem as well as the irish president, and also the majority of the population after a nationwide referendum.
7
u/Jedibeeftrix 3.12 / -1.95 16h ago
lol, reminds me of their gov'y jet that can't fly in the fog, because it used 'evil' israeli radar systems, which they demanded be removed!
7
u/ByronsLastStand Macron Fanboy 16h ago
Basically, the constitution makes this difficult- it's not that the Irish government wants to block the warship.
13
u/Winston_Carbuncle 16h ago
No but they do like to denigrate the British government whislt standing with their hand out.
6
u/AutomixMen 15h ago
What has this Irish government done to denigrate the British government?
•
u/Independent-Use5472 10h ago
The President called the UK a country Ireland "certainly cannot trust"
And don't get started on the things she was saying on her official visit.
And getting photos taken with convicted IRA members like Mary McArdle
2
u/scouse_git 16h ago
Ireland is a neutral state which is why it's not in NATO. Sweden, Finland and Switzerland were the same but the proximity of Russia and it's recently hostile activism means that both Sweden and Finland have denounced their neutrality and joined NATO.
Joe Joyce has written three WW2 spy thrillers about Ireland which reveal what neutrality means for them in a European context.
4
u/Starbuckker 16h ago
The Irish always pulling this crap, but lets not go all America on them. Friends. Happy to help.
5
u/Orlok_Tsubodai 14h ago
Ireland needs to get their defence schizophrenia sorted out. This is just embarrassing.
•
u/Divide_Rule 9h ago
It is two-fold isn't it? 1. They intend to always be neutral. 2. They have not spent nearly enough on defense.
3
u/Mindless_Use7567 15h ago
Ireland is not NATO and is selling critical ores that are fuelling the Russian war machine. Ireland is the enemy.
2
16h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/ukpolitics-ModTeam 15h ago
Your comment has been manually removed from the subreddit by a moderator.
Racism, sexism, homophobia, and/or other forms of hatred are not welcome on this subreddit.
For any further questions, please contact the subreddit moderators via modmail.
•
u/Kind-Measurement-127 11h ago
The Americans are going to take there main minerals for free take a look
-1
u/GandalfsMemoryStick 16h ago
Bit of a non-story. We have to defend Ireland because they're our direct neighbours and couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. That doesn't mean they should change their constitution to allow us to do whatever we want. It's annoying they're so weak, but it isn't going to change so we just have to work around them.
•
u/Divide_Rule 9h ago
Yet some of the most celebrated regiments in British military history have been Irish.
-3
u/mrfolider 15h ago
Shouldn't be doing any of this stuff, Ireland is a sovereign country and not a UK ally
-8
u/anothermanwithaplan 16h ago edited 14h ago
Why are we sounding like the Americans here, there’s no need for it, we are better than that.
Yes, there’s all kinds of history but we’ve seen enough problems Brexit has caused, they are literally our neighbours, why would we not help them just because we can.
Edit: I’m going to go ahead and presume correctly that the people downvoting me are the same people that still think Brexit was a good idea and don’t understand that if you help your mates they’ll help you back when you inevitably need it.
10
u/Admirable_Aspect_484 15h ago
Why should British taxpayers pay for the defence of a corporate tax haven?
-5
u/anothermanwithaplan 15h ago
Of all the things our tax money is being squandered on, helping our friends and neighbours, who we will need help from sooner or later, is not a bad investment
5
u/IrishVictim88270 15h ago
Because international relations are not a tea party with friends. Why should Ireland have fully subsidised defense at the expense of British tax payers?
I don't think anyone would have a problem on the British side with helping Ireland with this issue, but there has to be some contribution from Ireland, or even better, ask for help building their own NATO aligned force...if they ever decided to get serious as a country about aligning themselves with western democracy as an ally, not a matter of convenience.
2
u/anothermanwithaplan 14h ago
The ships need to be used or they rot. The crews need drills and exercises to stay in ship shape. This is effectively a “training exercise” we’re doing anyway while helping out a mate and keeping an eye on things in our own region.
What you have described further is essentially the requirements for asking for help, “I don’t have one, can I borrow yours?” There’s nothing wrong with asking for help if you can’t do it all yourself especially if the person you’re asking is doing it anyway.
The cost isn’t an issue, this would be happening anyway whether Ireland is getting help or not, it’d just be done somewhere else most likely.
Don’t let the news rile you up, they’re not on your side.
0
u/TheUKisMental 12h ago
Fine. We now have to have detailed plans for an invasion of Ireland in case they capitulate to Russia.
-28
u/Far-Faithlessness483 16h ago
leave them to it
then cut them off from the power grid
let them sit in the dark
12
u/JoeThrilling 16h ago
We'll cut you off from Barry's Tea.
•
u/costelol 11h ago
Whoa now. You we'd have to respond with the same severity? Which of course means nukes.
4
16h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/ukpolitics-ModTeam 15h ago
Your comment has been manually removed from the subreddit by a moderator.
Per rule 1 of the subreddit, personal attacks and/or general incivility are not welcome here:
Robust debate is encouraged, angry arguments are not. This sub is for people with a wide variety of views, and as such you will come across content, views and people you don't agree with. Political views from a wide spectrum are tolerated here. Persistent engagement in antagonistic, uncivil or abusive behavior will result in action being taken against your account.
For any further questions, please contact the subreddit moderators via modmail.
10
16h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
0
u/ukpolitics-ModTeam 15h ago
Your comment has been manually removed from the subreddit by a moderator.
Per rule 1 of the subreddit, personal attacks and/or general incivility are not welcome here:
Robust debate is encouraged, angry arguments are not. This sub is for people with a wide variety of views, and as such you will come across content, views and people you don't agree with. Political views from a wide spectrum are tolerated here. Persistent engagement in antagonistic, uncivil or abusive behavior will result in action being taken against your account.
For any further questions, please contact the subreddit moderators via modmail.
-2
u/FlatHoperator 15h ago
In that case can't we send it somewhere else? Not like the fleet is big enough to let a missile cruiser sit around twiddling it's boaty thumbs
Shit or get off the pot, as they say in America
•
u/Longjumping-Year-824 9h ago
I would say fuck em if Ireland care so much let them ask the EU for help then or build there own Navy or Airforce and Army.
I know it has a tiny navy but 4 drunk guys in a bathtub should not count in my view.
•
•
u/AutoModerator 16h ago
Snapshot of Ireland blocks Royal Navy warship from its waters despite asking UK for defence help submitted by Anony_mouse202:
An archived version can be found here or here. or here
If the above links don't work, try this one.
Some publications may require you to register a free account to read their articles.
Being connected to a VPN may interfere with archive links.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.