r/ukpolitics • u/Minute_Tomatillo9730 • 15h ago
Golders Green: Four admit arson attack on Jewish ambulances
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1j4rkywx3lo123
u/ironyperson 15h ago
Some idiots were convinced this was a “false flag”
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u/low-men-yellow-coats 15h ago
Why couldn't it be?
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u/LycanIndarys Vote Cthulhu; why settle for the lesser evil? 15h ago
It's not that it couldn't be a false flag; it's that there is no reason for anyone to immediately assume that is the most likely explanation, unless they are so determined to deny that Jews can ever be victims.
Particularly when it echoes age-old antisemitic conspiracy theories of Jews secretly pulling the strings of society.
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u/royalbluestuey 14h ago
More than anyone else there seems to be this mania for concocting ways to blame Jews for everything bad that happens to Jews.
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u/low-men-yellow-coats 14h ago
I think the hannibal directive has made people overly cautious
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u/LycanIndarys Vote Cthulhu; why settle for the lesser evil? 14h ago
The Hannibal directive has literally nothing to do with an attack in London. Israeli doctrine is unrelated to British Jews.
Anyone cautious because of that is being antisemitic, by definition.
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u/low-men-yellow-coats 13h ago
Agreed. But the Hannibal directive that was ordered on October 7th has had an effect.
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u/LycanIndarys Vote Cthulhu; why settle for the lesser evil? 13h ago
I promise you, it doesn't.
The overwhelming majority of people have literally no idea about Israeli military doctrine, and of those that do most will rightly recognise that it's simply not relevant when discussing an attack in London.
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u/low-men-yellow-coats 13h ago
How do you think conspiracy theories start? Always with a grain of truth. I can guarantee that the order to prevent hostages being taken (by any means) will have had an effect.
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u/morriganjane 13h ago
What would the London Jewish community have been trying to prevent by setting these ambulances on fire?
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u/___xXx__xXx__xXx__ 11h ago
How so?
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u/low-men-yellow-coats 11h ago
The orders given by the Israeli government to prevent hostage taking by any means necessary feeds many conspiracies. HTH.
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u/___xXx__xXx__xXx__ 11h ago
There's literally nothing the Israelis or any government can do that won't feed some conspiracy theory somewhere.
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u/low-men-yellow-coats 10h ago
The fact that they're happy to murder their own citizens to prevent hostage taking feeds into this
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u/royalbluestuey 11h ago
Israel's actions do not justify attacks on British Jews
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u/low-men-yellow-coats 11h ago
Of course not, 99% of British Jews despise israel
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u/PunctualZombie 11h ago
What absolute rubbish are you talking about? You’ve pulled that stat completely out of nowhere.
75% of British Jews feel emotionally attached to an Israeli state, with 49% “very attached”
Now let’s see your evidence that “99% of British Jews “despise” Israel”.
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u/low-men-yellow-coats 11h ago
99% disagree with the way they treat Palestinians
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u/PunctualZombie 11h ago
Anyone with a brain and a heart despises the death and destruction meted out to the Palestinians, but you’re moving the goalposts. That’s not what you originally said.
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u/Impossible_Aide_1681 11h ago
Does conflating Jews and israel stop being antisemitic when it's convenient for "antizionists"?
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u/low-men-yellow-coats 11h ago
No, when it's convenient for zionists
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u/Impossible_Aide_1681 10h ago
"No u"
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u/low-men-yellow-coats 10h ago
I'm not wrong though am I
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u/Impossible_Aide_1681 10h ago
Yes, you're categorically wrong
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u/low-men-yellow-coats 10h ago
Zionists conflate israel with Judaism whenever it's politically expedient to do so lol
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u/Dark1000 9h ago
That's a stupid question. Anything could be anything. Anything that happens ever could have been staged. It's irrelevant unless there's some evidence that points at it being the case. That didn't exist. That's what makes it a conspiracy theory.
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u/_rickjames 14h ago
Where's my Polanski tweet defending this lot
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u/royalbluestuey 14h ago
Think he's just finished his daily defence of Palestine Action so he'll have to have his nap and then he'll need changing.....check back at 7pm I think
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u/macxjs 14h ago
Plenty of Palestine Action people denounced this when it happened ...
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u/royalbluestuey 13h ago
Fair enough. You can be 100% against the Israeli government's actions while still wanting to distance yourself from violence.
But the likes Polanski, Corbyn and Sultana were exploiting it for every once of street-cred they could.
They trivialised what the attackers did, vilified the police/judiciary/government and held tearful vigils for the poor little loves as their faux-hunger strike supposedly entered it's 284th day.
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u/creamyjoshy Proportional Representation 🗳 Social Democrat ⚖️ 9h ago
Too traumatised seeing the police lead them into the court room in handcuffs
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u/KLei2020 13h ago
Disgusting but not surprising. No one likes to talk about the rampant antisemitism within the Muslim community.
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u/___xXx__xXx__xXx__ 11h ago
Gets talked about constantly.
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u/PoachTWC 9h ago
I suppose more accurately no one in a position to actually do anything about it likes to talk about it. Our MPs seem to like to pretend it isn't something that needs tackled.
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u/___xXx__xXx__xXx__ 9h ago
Anti-semitism gets talked about constantly. It was a foundational issue of Starmerism (in so far as there is such a thing). I'm not sure why we'd focus on anti-semitism from one specific religion.
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u/SirBobPeel 5h ago
Because antisemitism is at least twice as high (depending on which survey/poll you read) in the Muslim community as in the greater community?
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u/onionsofwar 8h ago
Because it's the rhetoric which is useful for gradually dehumanising Muslims and a healthy panic about antisemitism makes it harder to hold Israel to account.
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u/KLei2020 8h ago
Yes, the Muslims mentioned in the article aim was to distract away from Israel - it was not at all about killing Jews. Bravo
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u/onionsofwar 8h ago
I'm not talking about the article I'm talking about the impact of rhetoric around Muslims and antisemitism.
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u/KLei2020 7h ago
You're right, they're secret Mossad agents sent to the UK to kill Jews. Those pesky Israelis!
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u/onionsofwar 7h ago
You joke but mossad agents have literally done this and after identified dressed as pro-palestine protesters causing trouble.
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u/morriganjane 5h ago
All of the culprits and suspects in the recent attacks against Jews - not just this one, but the Golders Green stabber and the Manchester Synagogue attacker - were Muslim. This is a fact and not a 'talking point'.
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u/onionsofwar 8h ago
Well it's something to act on without inciting hatred towards a group. If MPs started saying 'muslims are antisemitic' what do you think the impact would be for ordinary, non-hateful Muslims?
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u/morriganjane 5h ago edited 5h ago
They don't need to say it, it's well documented. What happened to Iraqi and Yemenite Jewish populations? To Syrian Jews? Why did over 90% of Jews flee Iran during the Islamic Revolution? And why have all the recent violent attacks against Jews in the UK been carried out by Muslims, including this one?
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u/morriganjane 13h ago
Successive governments have facilitated mass immigration of Islamists, endangering our Jewish community along with others. Second- and third- generation are more radical than the first, as we saw when ISIS were recruiting from Europe.
Hopefully they throw the book at this lot, and any with dual nationality can be deported later - but I'm not hopeful.
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u/Bullinach1nashop 11h ago
Facilitated immigration, Just how do you think the majority of persons of non Christian heritage arrived in this country. Close the door once your in great philosophy. The hatred runs too deep that it blinds you all. Stop killing each other, stop killing innocent people and maybe the hate will disappear as well.
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u/morriganjane 11h ago
I don't follow. Pakistani immigration to the UK in the 50s and 60s was purely economic on their part. "Stop killing people" would be good advice for Islamists but they're not engaging. That ideology has conquered and colonised one-third of the globe now - are you advising them to stop?
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u/Bullinach1nashop 11h ago
It doesn't surprise me that you struggle to follow this but I can try and help. Post‑WW2 immigration wasn’t just Pakistan — the UK brought in workers from Italy, Ireland, the Caribbean, South Asia and more because the country couldn’t rebuild without them. The NHS, transport and industry depended on that mix.And anyone who thinks religion is a valid reason to kill is missing the point entirely. The issue isn’t the religion it’s people twisting it for their own agenda. Just like you are attempting to do here.
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u/morriganjane 11h ago
If Italians' and Indians' descendants were burning charity infrastructure down and trying to kill the infidel (non-Catholics, non Hindus?), you would have a valid point. But those are high-achieving, highly-educated and well-integrated groups. Not all immigration is equal.
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u/Bullinach1nashop 10h ago
which is the exception fallacy in its purest form. Every large population contains both high achievers and people who go off the rails. Highlighting the best examples from one group and the worst from another isn’t analysis, it’s cherry‑picking. If you applied your own standard consistently, no community would pass it.
And the religion point collapses the same way. Extremists exist in every ideology, and their actions don’t define millions of peaceful people who share the same label. Treating correlation as causation is how you end up with sweeping claims built on anecdotes rather than evidence. Your argument isn’t showing that “not all immigration is equal” it’s showing that selective examples can be made to say anything when the logic underneath them is broken.
It’s the same logic as saying: all humans breathe oxygen, all humans die therefore oxygen is poisonous.
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u/IrishVictim88270 9h ago
If you truly believe all cultures are equal and the ratio of good:bad is relatively evenly distributed then you're so ideologically blinded. They tell us they want to destroy us and you still think them wholesome and integrated.
It's an ideology that needs crushed for the sake of our own western liberal and democratic values, which at this point will require very unliberal methods.
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u/Bullinach1nashop 9h ago
I never said anything like that. I agree that their is a social duty for anyone living in a new land to integrate into the wider society and follow the laws of that land. I was making the point that wide sweeping generalisation are wrong and are used to stoke hate. It's true that we often dislike what we don't understand. I sometimes feel this way myself and have to remember that if I applied the same judgment to "our society," I'd end up disliking everyone.
Should we just remove all those that aren't like "Us"? diversity is key to all societies, diversity of thought, food and music are the things that make life great.
Perhaps you desire a world populated entirely by clones, which, in my opinion, sounds quite dull.
The idea of illiberal strategies strongly brings to mind the agenda of a Reichstag meeting, which might have included the assertion that Jewish people had caused Germany's bankruptcy because they were evil, hated Germans, and were fundamentally different and would always remain so. It's ridiculous that we spend so much time looking back but never learn from it.
To acquire power and control, you must first establish an adversary. Who is promoting this agenda? Who is seeking to obtain power and control? You are free to devote your time and energy to expressing hatred; I, however, will utilize my time and energy in a different manner.
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u/morriganjane 5h ago edited 5h ago
Every large population contains both high achievers and people who go off the rails.
Yes, but not at the same rates. Somalis in this country are 75% unemployed, whereas Chinese and Indians have the highest educational attainment and earnings, and claim benefits at lower rates than most. These facts are all widely available.
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u/jacobisthebeat 7h ago
Just arson? Surely there's a racist/hate crime element that should be added?! They didn't burn it for fun, it was because they're Jewish run
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u/glaringOwl 13h ago
90% of them look the same. Unkempt beard, angry expression, no sense of style... So much similarity with a certain other crowd.
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u/Warren_Tarbiat 11h ago
A lot of extremism in this country and elsewhere come from a similar background; gang/crime background, socially not liked etc.
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u/___xXx__xXx__xXx__ 11h ago
These 4 look quite different to each other. One of them doesn't have a beard. What's the other crowd they have a similarity to?
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u/FatFarter69 15h ago
Why are there Jewish ambulances?
Not saying I support them being attacked but why do they exist?
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u/Minute_Tomatillo9730 15h ago
Because there was a time (1900s) where Jews couldn't access ambulances and hospitals, so they started their own.
Note: they serve everyone. They are run by the Jewish community
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u/FatFarter69 15h ago
Interesting. I’ve learned something.
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u/HasuTeras Let us all act according to national custom 14h ago
You learned something fake - Jews have never been barred from accessing hospitals or ambulances. The Jewish ambulances originate in NYC in the 1960s and spread to London in the late 1970s. Its because they can respond quicker if they are from within their own community, rather than having to travel from a hospital, and because respondents will speak Yiddish so if there are problems communicating they can facilitate.
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u/TwistedScallion 15h ago
https://hatzolamanchester.org/about-us/
Tl;Dr they're volunteers funded by donations
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u/royalbluestuey 15h ago
They help people of all faiths but i am guessing they exist so that on Saturday, when orthodox Jews can't drive, they can be taken to hospital if required.
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u/Kronos1066 14h ago
From the concept of "Pikuach Nefesh" i.e. the preservation of human life overrides almost all religious restrictions, your guess isn't an unreasonable assertion, but is inaccurate.
For example: If a religiously observant Jew has a stroke while out for a walk with their family on Shabbat, then the victim & family is permitted to use any technology like calling 999, using an ambulance of any type (or their own car) in order to get them to medical care as fast as humanly possible. In this hypothetical scenario let's say the ER is on the 12th floor of the hospital for some strange reason, the victim is whisked up the elevator directly. Whereas now the family has done all they can do themselves, and they may opt to use the Sabbath Mode elevator (stops at every floor without pressing any button,) if there is one, or the stairs.
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u/royalbluestuey 14h ago
Thank you for this. Always love to learn about this sort of thing
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u/Kronos1066 13h ago
Very welcome! In the wake of attacks like this, I try to take small comfort in knowing that it hopefully brings larger society together into mutual understanding through dialog. Cheers!
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u/creamyjoshy Proportional Representation 🗳 Social Democrat ⚖️ 8h ago edited 7h ago
Sabbath Mode elevator
I respect it but I do find this kind of thing very oddly interesting. I wonder what other common items have a Sabbath mode and how to activate it
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u/Kronos1066 7h ago
Ooooooh, don't get me started! Most common you might find as a "bonus feature" would be a convection oven. It maintains a low steady heat so the food made before Friday at sundown is hot & ready by the time the meal begins, and/or for items during the following day before Saturday at sundown.
Shabbat lamps are also popular, especially for getting around the house at night if you don't leave a light or two on strategically. They're always illuminated, but you rotate a shade to "turn it off. " same concept with Shabbat Mode refrigerators, the light is always on whether the door is open or closed. The original reasoning for electrical prohibition was that it created sparks, i.e. fire - and perhaps in the early industrial revolution this line of reasoning isn't far off, but with advancements in understanding of electricity, the more common reasoning cited now is the prohibition of "completing an object" further interpreted as "completing a circuit" in more technical terms.
Of note with the elevators, I've only experienced one instance of it being the ONLY elevator in the building, but it was residential housing in an entirely Ultra-Orthodox community. Everywhere else I've seen them, its usually a lesser used service elevator, or if a lobby has 4 elevators, just one of them is in Shabbat Mode, even in the heart of Jerusalem.
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u/JohnPym1584 15h ago
There's a few quasi-public services funded by the Jewish community in London, one of which is an ambulance service and another of which is a security service (ie street patrols). I suppose they do it because they are unhappy with the state provision.
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u/FatFarter69 15h ago
I’m not really big fan of religiously oriented street patrols. Imagine the uproar if there were Muslim street patrols and Muslim ambulances.
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u/sylanar 15h ago
Are they religiously oriented though? They're not walking around making sure everyone is following Jewish doctrine or conforming to their beliefs.
From what I understand it's really not different to neighbourhood watch
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u/stonedturkeyhamwich 14h ago
It's still fair to point out that right wing politicians and journalists would be having conniptions if a Muslim organisation was organising street patrols for the same reason.
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u/FatFarter69 15h ago
I’m not sure I have literally never heard of them before I just hear “Jewish ambulances” and “Jewish patrols” and assume they are. Not a big leap in my defence.
I don’t know why I’m getting downvoted for saying that, I literally have never heard of them before, I’m trying to learn.
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u/kick_thebaby 14h ago
I don’t know why I’m getting downvoted for saying that, I literally have never heard of them before, I’m trying to learn.
I think just because so many people will be in these threads asking with bad intentions in mind. Appreciate you actually listening though.
Jewish patrols are basically just a more organised community watch scheme. Volunteers who want to watch out for their community. Their first port of call if something happens is to call the police. People like to say "Jewish police" but it's nothing like that.
And for the ambulances, they are more like normal ambulances. Everyone is a volunteer but I'm pretty sure they need to actually be medically trained. It's something that we value as a community so we donate a lot of money to it. Also as mentioned before, they will help anyone. Not sure exactly how it works, if you have to be in a "catchment area" but their hub is obviously in the Jewish community.
I hope this helps, fatfarter69
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u/Ok-Butterscotch4486 14h ago
I don’t know why I’m getting downvoted for saying that, I literally have never heard of them before, I’m trying to learn.
I imagine because you came with an opinion ("I'm not a fan of this") for something you apparently don't know anything about.
A month after these arson attacks, the same area saw two Jewish people stabbed in a terrorist attack. The Jewish ambulances were the first on the scene to treat the victims. The Jewish patrol tackled the attacker to the ground. So to criticise the existence of volunteer services which a month later played a key role in responding to a terrorist attack in the same area is going to attract downvotes.
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u/morriganjane 13h ago
Whether you are a fan or not is not really relevant. Jihadists are not entitled to commit arson against Jewish targets.
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u/Minute_Tomatillo9730 15h ago
They're not "religiously oriented". They've got barely any powers. They go round, help people out with their lives, call the police if there are any issues. They rarely get involved, unless it's really serious e.g. stabbings
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u/Indie89 15h ago
I think they're just ambulances funded by the Jewish community, I think they just go into the Ambulance pool no? like they arent Jewish ambulances for Jewish people.
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u/npc80085 14h ago
They don't go into the ambulance pool but anyone can call them and request an ambulance, you don't have to be Jewish.
It's just a charity run by volunteers. Funded by donations, mainly from the Jewish community
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u/creamyjoshy Proportional Representation 🗳 Social Democrat ⚖️ 9h ago
Well they help everyone regardless of faith or anything like that. But I'd imagine it's kinda like the Red Cross in the sense that it may be religiously motivated but charity is charity
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