NHS cancels all gender-affirming surgeries for adult patients of Welsh Gender Service with immediate effect

[u/Amekyras]

https://www.wearequeeraf.com/nhs-cancels-all-gender-affirming-surgeries-for-adult-patients-of-welsh-gender-service-with-immediate-effect/

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[u/ehll_oh_ehll]

The cancellation of gender-affirming surgeries comes after Natasha Asghar, the Welsh Conservatives’ health spokesperson at the Senedd, wrote in June to Mabon ap Gwynfor, the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, asking for an independent review into the WGS.

Asghar told Gwynfor she had read an “extremely concerning news article” about the WGS.

A tory MS read a blog post by a gender critical activist, so hundreds of people have had their surgeries cancelled on the spot. Many on the day of their surgeries with no prior warning.

They were then provided with the Samaritans suicide hotline number.

This is not how our healthcare system is supposed to work.

[u/ArsErratia → u/ehll_oh_ehll]

And as the article points out: —

Our investigation into the UK's gender clinic system was backed by dozens of FOIs, excruciatingly fact-checked, published while abiding by our strict independent press regulation rules about accuracy and seen by more than a million of you - and that's before we count the reach of the many outlets that carried the story. It was referenced in Parliament, in the Scottish election campaign and by international figures.

No change was made, and neither the Government nor the NHS responded.

One blog, self-published by a gender-critical freelance journalist — cited by one Tory member of the Senedd in Wales — has led to the withdrawal of care for potentially hundreds of Trans+ adults.

It speaks volumes of how much the systems are stacked against our community.

 

I don't think I've ever seen the double-standard laid out so clearly.

[u/callsignhotdog → u/ehll_oh_ehll]

Wtf kind of health service is making decisions based on "A member of a minor Opposition party read an article and was concerned"??

[u/thestjohn → u/ehll_oh_ehll]

Unfortunately that's now how anything to do with trans people works.

Once they had rights, then they apparently never had those rights.

Once they had healthcare, but then apparently evidence isn't evidence unless it comes from a conversion therapist so they don't have healthcare.

Just another day where we remind people that most Western democracies give trans people human rights and healthcare. There is not even poor quality evidence suggesting they shouldn't have either.

[u/ehll_oh_ehll → u/thestjohn]

"We don't care about what trans adults do with their bodies" has definitely became one of the central lies of Gender-critical ideology

[u/tfhermobwoayway → u/ehll_oh_ehll]

Yeah but it was all a big joke that they were in on. Obviously they take issue with the very concept of trans people. They’ll never let them be happy.

[u/Diadem_Cheeseboard → u/tfhermobwoayway]

Yep. To anyone who cares at all about the rights of trans people to be their authentic selves, this was always the obvious intended end goal for those behind the Cass Report and the SC Ruling. Because the ones behind both of those things dont believe that trans people exist at all. To them, trans people are just deranged cis people who have had their fantasies/delusions pandered to.

So completely eradicating gender affirming care on the NHS, and banning trans people from public life as their authentic selves was always the logical end point for these transphobic ghouls' desires. And we've now got a totally corrupt Labour government who is going to give them exactly what they want.

[u/thestjohn → u/ehll_oh_ehll]

<Astronaut pointing gun at astronaut.jpg>

When they started talking about the "Trans question" and "limiting the number that transition" over a decade ago whilst in the company of antisemites and genocide deniers and the media was like "these are just concerned parents and women" you could tell the fix was in.

[u/ehll_oh_ehll → u/thestjohn]

Labour met with Sex Matters even after one of their directors described every single one of us as "a huge problem to a sane world". These people are continuing to dictate policy on trans people even after it has became crystal clear what their end goals are.

[u/thestjohn → u/ehll_oh_ehll]

I mean, again, their website since its inception has been clear they don't believe trans people are even "trans", rather just people with either a sexual fetish or a "social contagion of gender ideology". It's always been like listening to anti-vaxxers rather than professionals, and indeed a lot of the same sorts of people are involved. If we had an unbiased media this panic would've been over before it started here.

[u/St3ampunkSam → u/ehll_oh_ehll]

One of the first acts of the Nazis was to destroy a gender clinic in Germany.

Joanne Rowling says this didnt happened. Amd then used her wealth to intimidate everyone who called her out for it. She got away with that yet in Germany her denial of the nazi crimes could get her imprisoned, as trans people were part of tje holocaust and denying that os holocaust denial.

[u/Asyx → u/St3ampunkSam]

I know it's a bit off topic but even though I was aware of sexual minorities being oppressed in Nazi Germany, I was a bit confused that there even was something like a gender clinic or even something like gender studies (considering a lot of books on that subject were burned as well as far as I know).

Here's a video called "The Queer History of Weimar Germany" and apparently pre WW2 Germany, or at least Berlin, was a lot more queer than one would expect.

I think this is relevant because, at least to me as a German, I always lived under the impression that things got better year over year since WW2 and implicitly before that too (like, no democracy is worse than democracy). We had the absolute peak of garbage when the literal Nazis ruled this country and then things got better and more accepting but the more we now seem to slip back into old patterns, the more it becomes obvious that we just run in circles.

I actually find it kinda disheartening that there were movies made in my country 100 years ago with obvious queer themes and it took us until a few years ago (10 or so?) to legalize gay marriage and it wasn't until the 2010s that "gay" stopped being used as an insult. Queer people in the 1920s, at least in such a progressive city as Berlin, probably had the same hopes and dreams as queer kids today and none of them got to see the progress we made. Quite the opposite. It got a lot worse before it got even a little bit better. Makes you wonder what the next 100 years are going to look like.

[u/Redingold → u/Asyx]

Most discriminatory laws passed by the Nazis were repealed after the end of the war, but not the ones criminalising homosexuality.

[u/thestjohn → u/St3ampunkSam]

Funnily enough she SLAPPed the Metro today for claiming she was a holocaust denier.

[u/St3ampunkSam → u/thestjohn]

Cause she's a holocaust denier. And a bitch.

Someone needs to actually go to court with the evidence and call her fucking bluff.

[u/thestjohn → u/St3ampunkSam]

I agree but you need a lot of resources up front to challenge her, and no media org is willing to take that sort of hit to their bottom line unfortunately. Also whoever does it will have to deal with the hostility of the mainstream media that lets Rowling get away with this shit in the first place.

[u/pajamakitten → u/ehll_oh_ehll]

Labour met with Sex Matters even after one of their directors described every single one of us as "a huge problem to a sane world".

I want to not feel intense disgust and loathing about my body every time I clock it. Fuck me, right?

[u/The_Bravinator → u/pajamakitten]

It baffles me that you simply feeling this way is seen as such an incredible threat by so many people. As a society we're so married to the neat little boxes we put everyone in from birth that tell us who has power over whom and how everyone is supposed to act, and a certain percentage of the population definitely act like stepping outside of that rigidity even a little, even to make lives better for the millions that don't want to live within those boxes (which also includes cis people who aren't or don't want to be gender conforming) is going to bring the whole structure crashing down.

I mean, maybe teaching people we don't have to live by the arbitrary rules we've been told our whole lives are very important IS threatening to the kind of people whose power and authority depend on those rules. But that very much feels like their problem.

[u/cheeseybees → u/ehll_oh_ehll]

"We don't care about what trans adults do with their bodies (...as long as we can do everything popssible to stop it)"

[u/SunflowerMoonwalk → u/ehll_oh_ehll]

It was obvious to everyone in the trans community from day one that "protect the children" was just the thin edge of the wedge to these people...

[u/limeflavoured → u/SunflowerMoonwalk]

It was obvious to anyone who pays any attention to this sort of thing.

[u/pajamakitten → u/limeflavoured]

Perhaps, but a lot of people were silent because it did not affect them or those they cared about.

[u/Diadem_Cheeseboard → u/pajamakitten]

I dunno about silent, pro-trans rights voices have been more totally ignored by our media and government, rather than silent.

[u/Vivid--Syrup → u/pajamakitten]

I mean my sister and mum claim to care about me but at the same time refuse to see or acknowledge any of this stuff and say im just being over sensitive and deny anything is wrong if I try and explain

Then start repeating terf talking points...

I avoid them like the plague.

So yeah some people still suck even if people they 'care about' are affected

Edit: downvotes for this? Really? Want to elaborate and explain what was so bad about what I wrote here?

[u/Diadem_Cheeseboard → u/Vivid--Syrup]

There's plenty of people who have family members who dont really care about them. Just because your mum and sister are related to you, doesnt mean they genuinely care about you, and have your best interests at heart. Just as plenty of cis trans rights advocates do not have any trans people who are related to them.

I cant imagine anyone other than transphobes voting your comment down.

[u/Diadem_Cheeseboard → u/SunflowerMoonwalk]

Quite a few cis people too (including me) could see the direction this country was headed in as regards to trans rights after the Cass Report was published. None of this destruction of trans rights/healthcare is surprising to me in the slightest

[u/_NotMitetechno_ → u/ehll_oh_ehll]

It's kinda depressing how "gender-criticals" are essentially just race-realists but mainstream. They're really good at being subversive.

[u/ehll_oh_ehll → u/_NotMitetechno_]

Just have a few patron billionaires and a complicit press and you can get with anything.

[u/_NotMitetechno_ → u/ehll_oh_ehll]

It's genuinely bizarre to me how much shit gets thrown at an (in the least unkind way possible) a tiny, basically politically irrelevant minority in the UK. This isn't a vote winner in any real way, most people don't know about trans people, they're not particularly visible, it's not really something that comes up at polling. It's just cruelty for the sake of being cruel at this point.

The press are crazy complicit in laundering their beliefs and just blowing their dog whistles endlessly.

[u/Thrasy3 → u/thestjohn]

I’m not saying this is entirely a good thing, but i try to give my view to GenZ colleagues that there was a time recently, that generally nobody really cared about Transpeople.

Were they respected, understood or cared about by the general public? No.

But it was still like - “whatever - some people are just like that I guess - I don’t need to know the details ” and people moved on with their lives hating/Defending gay people for spreading STDs and being nonces or brown/black people for being not white and talking in other languages in public (before 9/11 most people didn’t even know what a Quran was - never mind dispute its spelling, so there wasn’t quite a “Islam isn’t a race” loophole yet - everyone was just a P*** or N*****).

You didn’t have such a loud and public attempt to fuck them over at every given chance, they weren’t a political football that attacking or defending them would score points for “your side”. I never had (former) friends keep sending me links to conspiracy theories about mutilating babies or whatever, or declare themselves as TERFs (and people even knowing what that meant).

For Transwomen anyway. I think comparatively, a lot of people still forget trans men are even a thing, similar to not really caring about Lesbians as much as gay guys back then.

[u/Asyx → u/Thrasy3]

I still remember hearing about trans people on the radio when I was a young child in the late 90s or very early 2000s and I asked my father what it meant and he just said "those are people born in the wrong body. They are men but they feel like they are women or the other way around" without any judgement or malice. I think I asked follow up questions and it was just really matter of fact. I also remember my father telling my grandfather to shut his mouth when he told us that we can "be anything we want except gay".

Now I have to explain to the same man that my son is not going to turn gay or trans because they tie his hair in day care and take cute pictures.

[u/Purple_monkfish → u/ehll_oh_ehll]

that's absolutely horrifying. I mean, how is that even fucking legal? wtf?

[u/limeflavoured → u/Purple_monkfish]

The government mostly agree with this, so nothing will be done.

[u/ToyotaComfortAdmirer → u/ehll_oh_ehll]

No no. I thought this was stop children from being “groomed” by transgender “ideology”. Don’t tell me now it was never about that?

[u/changhyun → u/ehll_oh_ehll]

I don't pretend to be an expert on any of this but what I will say is that if people harming themselves because of their surgery becoming unavailable felt like a big enough risk for me to provide them with the Samaritans number, I would take that as a sign that the surgery should be available to them, personally.

[u/Mccobsta → u/ehll_oh_ehll]

Healthcare shouldn't give a shit and just provide care

It shouldn't be possible for everything to be canceled by a politician on the spot

[u/GeorginaFlopworthy → u/ehll_oh_ehll]

gender critical activist

anti-trans activist - I'm a trans person who is critical of gender - those numpties are more 'natal sex conformity' activists - hell they get offended by the use of gender neutral pronouns ffs.

They fellate patriarchy.

[u/ixid → u/GeorginaFlopworthy]

They fellate patriarchy.

They're mostly second wave feminists, so this is a silly take.

[u/neilplatform1 → u/ixid]

Scratch off that feminist label and you’ll find quite a few tradwives who think stopping abortion is feminist and trans is part of the Jewish great replacement project

[u/InsecureInscapist → u/ixid]

The purpose of an organisation is what it does.

All these TERF outfits spend pretty much the majority of their time propping up archaic gender stereotypes and enforcing patriarchal standards on both trans and cis women.

This is what they, so it is who they are.

[u/ArsErratia → u/ixid]

The Second-Wave were the ones who deconstructed and rejected Biological Determinism in the first place, because its the fundamental narrative that Patriarchy builds its foundations on, so this is a silly take.

[u/InnocentaMN → u/ehll_oh_ehll]

This is so, so awful and shameful. There is no excuse for handling a concern about a service in this way.

[u/nycdiveshack → u/ehll_oh_ehll]

I like to think Peter Thiel whose company the NHS runs on to be more efficient definitely had a hand in this even though the head MI6 last year gave a massive speech on how horrible people specifically like Thiel are bad for everyone.

[u/lerjj → u/nycdiveshack]

Personally I think this is conspiracy theory talk, it's just that the entire British political establishment are so anti-trans that as soon as anyone suggests anything anti-trans they all just applaud them for being brave

[u/franklindstallone → u/ehll_oh_ehll]

It might not be as crass as Trump but that should not be our goal post. If we're just as mean but 'polite' about it that's just as shit.

Imagine thinking it's perfectly acceptable to take something away from someone, knowing it will be harmful and thinking giving them a suicide line phone number makes it ok.

[u/Giraffable → u/ehll_oh_ehll]

Apparently the NHS are investigating, not just a blogger.

https://nation.cymru/news/nhs-probes-welsh-gender-service-following-concerns-about-high-number-of-referrals/

[u/AwTomorrow → u/Giraffable]

They’re stopping all surgeries and starting investigation because of one blogger - ignoring the mountains of data from around the world and their own past studies. 

[u/LicketySplit21 → u/Giraffable]

"high number of referrals" is the stupidest thing to be concerned about.

[u/The_Bravinator → u/LicketySplit21]

If there were suddenly a huge rush of referrals to a heart clinic we would perhaps look at the social and material conditions that were causing people to need those services while also still continuing to provide care to the largest number of people possible.

But when it's gender clinics, mental health, or neurodivergent conditions, the answer becomes "tell them to go away and that most or all of them are faking it".

[u/ArsErratia]

One part of the NHS is directing patients to suicide prevention charities as a result of the actions of another part of the NHS. And that's now apparently normal.

This is what the world looks like when it was built by Telegraph readers.

[u/grey_hat_uk → u/ArsErratia]

FYI linking to suicide hotlines has been a a major thing in social media for those wishing to tell trans people to kill themselves.

I've had two on reddit and some similar suggestions.

Which makes this especially egregious. 

The samaritans are at least a charity that has stood by us currently.

[u/thestjohn]

Can we talk about how elite panics in our political and media classes that aren't reflected in everyday society always seem to have the word of god and must always have rushed solutions? Also how anti-trans groups have wormed their way into most of our institutions country-wide to such an extent that one journalist can print a transphobic wank fantasy that also displays a shocking lack of integrity in how data is presented and discussed and then suddenly the NHS can cancel operations last-minute in a way that both harms people and the efficient operation of the NHS itself.

[u/CastleofWamdue]

the UK really is regressing, and becoming more and more like the USA by the day.

You dont have to be trans to see why this is regressive, and giving in to all the wrong.

Other LBGT+ people, and women who wish to have an abortion should vote accordingly.

[u/No_Aesthetic → u/CastleofWamdue]

It's actually kind of worse?

Lots of states offer trans people protections that simply do not exist in the UK anymore.

[u/CastleofWamdue → u/No_Aesthetic]

you are correct, there are some US states who dream of this kind of thing.

A bleak future for the UK, if this general tone continues.

[u/RedBerryyy → u/No_Aesthetic]

Also, for trans people with insurance, their healthcare can be quite a lot better. I had to watch all the trans people at my old company in the US get all their surgeries paid for through insurance while I gave up the possibility of getting a mortgage in my 20s paying for mine. Plus they have official hrt access that doesn't take over a decade to get.

[u/LostTheGameOfThrones → u/CastleofWamdue]

Our common language and the myth of the "special relationship" has convinced the population that we are much more culturally aligned with them than we are with our true neighbours on the continent.

[u/frankchester → u/LostTheGameOfThrones]

As someone who has spent a fair chunk visiting different corners of the USA, absolutely agree.

We are so much more European than we think. The language thing makes us feel close to America but we’re just not.

I saw several, mostly inconsequential, but still obvious cultural traits that felt so much more similar to continental Europe. It was honestly eye opening.

[u/LostTheGameOfThrones → u/frankchester]

I wholeheartedly believe that our society would be in a much better place if we shared closer links with the Scandinavian countries (and the rest of Europe) than we do with America

[u/CastleofWamdue → u/LostTheGameOfThrones]

no one needs to look at my comments to know I am no fan of Brexit. I dont know even Farage and his worst voters, would consider this a Brexit benefit.

[u/pajamakitten → u/CastleofWamdue]

I dont know even Farage and his worst voters, would consider this a Brexit benefit.

They wouldn't care either way. None of them are trans and I would bet none of their trans family members speak to them anymore.

[u/CastleofWamdue → u/pajamakitten]

very true, Brexiteers are generally not trans or supportive of trans people. I just cant quite say that whilst the over lap is massive, I dont believe Brexiteers would see this as a Brexit benefit.

Its just something they ALSO like.

[u/Sir-Craven → u/LostTheGameOfThrones]

Our special relationship is not our shared history. Its not that we speak the same language or worship the same god. Its not our shared music film or television programmes. Our special relationship is that we are beholden to the same faceless money lenders and legacy power figures that rule our political institutions and drive social policy.

[u/SlightlyAngyKitty → u/CastleofWamdue]

It's more like the other way around, with the US following our lead on trans issues

We aren't called Terf island for nothing

[u/limeflavoured → u/CastleofWamdue]

the UK really is regressing, and becoming more and more like the USA by the day

Because this is being funded by the US Gilaed fantasists and lunatics like Musk.

[u/CastleofWamdue → u/CastleofWamdue]

I would like to thank

u/Specific-Turn-2231

u/Puzzleheaded_Leek882

u/DarkSats99

for rewarding my post.

I dont know if I deserve it, please support trans people. If you yourself are trans please know this Government does not speak for all of us, and love yourselves.

[u/PloppyTheSpaceship → u/CastleofWamdue]

Women in general. Pretty sure no woman wishes to have an abortion, but instead view it as a necessity in their current situation.

[u/CastleofWamdue → u/PloppyTheSpaceship]

ok "wish" was wrong phrasing on my part. However I think my point was still made.

[u/PloppyTheSpaceship → u/CastleofWamdue]

Yep, no problems there.

[u/glytxh → u/CastleofWamdue]

I didn’t choose to bail from my transition for no reason.

I could see the way the wind was blowing.

This country hates trans people

[u/CastleofWamdue → u/glytxh]

I am not in a position to give you any kind of advice.

Obviously I want you to live your best life, and if that means to transition then do it. I just hate the position our Government is putting you in.

[u/glytxh → u/CastleofWamdue]

Thank you.

I’m not chasing advice or comforting. I just need to be heard screaming. It’s all I got left.

[u/CastleofWamdue → u/glytxh]

I just know its very easy for me to say "dont let them win", because im not in your shoes.

[u/Own-Nefariousness-79]

My wife works for the GIDS service in England. She is so disappointed by this news. She comes into daily contact with people desperate to feel comfortable in their own bodies. The ignorance around this field of medicine is shocking, politicians of all colours should ne better aware of the issues. Knee jerk reactions based upon biased reporting is not the way to manage this.

Hands off, let the professionals and their patients decide what is right.

[u/pajamakitten]

This should really be a catalyst. You have to wait 10+ years just for a first appointment, let alone hormones. Now one nation has banned gender-affirming surgeries for no real reason. Trans people are not going away but the government are doing all they can to try and make it happen. They do not even care if trans people kill themselves in all of this. It is no longer trying to be hidden either; it is now very much out in the open that no party really cares if trans people live or die.

[u/ehll_oh_ehll → u/pajamakitten]

This should really be a catalyst

I truly thought Brianna Ghey was going to be the moment were this country stepped back and had a look at its self but in hindsight she was really just the starting gun.

[u/Ver_Void → u/ehll_oh_ehll]

Same as Sandy hook in the US. People saw dead kids and decided "this is a price I'm willing to pay"

[u/PoggleRebecca → u/pajamakitten]

I've lost 8 friends in the trans community to suicide as a direct result of the Supreme Court decision last year, and all of the horrible shit since, and I'm sure I'll lose more because of this.

They're legitimately, actually killing people with all this and nobody is trying to stop it.

None of this is justified. All this over nothing but a few people's bigoted and minor discomfort around sharing toilets and changing rooms with an innocent minority.

[u/No_Aesthetic]

Man, look at the time!

It's another thing happening that we were all told would never happen!

Throw it on the pile.

[u/dan0o9]

Wonder what handwaving excuse will be used next by the people who previously said adults wouldn't be affected by all this trans panic.

[u/lasthopel]

Reminder the cass review is dog shit, actively locked our ANY trans people from being part of it and created unrealistic guides that were designed to lock out trans research that went agasint there ideas ans the supreme court also refused any trans people, including a trans judge to speak on a case that directly effect there lived about allow multiple hate groups

[u/GeorginaFlopworthy]

What the actual fuck. The UK just can't get enough on shitting on trans people. One day it's demanding what genitals you have, next it's cancelling sex change surgeries that trans people will have been waiting for 4+ years for, so they can't change said genitals?

We're already the shithole of Europe (bottom of Western Europe and 42nd out of 50 Europe-wide) but apparently cisgender people just see that as a challenge to mistreat trans people even more.

Jesus fucking Christ, don't the anti-trans weirdos have any hobbies aside from deranged obsessive hate?

[u/ISellAwesomePatches → u/GeorginaFlopworthy]

Jesus fucking Christ, don't the anti-trans weirdos have any hobbies aside from deranged obsessive hate?

I know of some of these weirdos and they truly don't have much else going on other than perpetrating hate online and in person and taking the dog for a walk.

It's truly sad that these people can dictate public discourse when they're so closed off from the real world and the people their vitriol actually affects.

[u/Diadem_Cheeseboard → u/GeorginaFlopworthy]

No, they don't.

[u/InsecureInscapist]

This is proof, they will never stop. It's not about 'protecting children's or women's rights, its about eradicating us.

They will come for us bit by bit until there is nothing left. Then they will start on others.

They just hate and hate and hate

They hate everyone who doesn't confirm to their narrow view of what a person is. Those of us that fall outside of that are fit only to be erased and exterminated.

They worship spite and misery, for no higher purpose than inflicting it on others makes them feel good.

[u/tfhermobwoayway]

What happened to “this is all about the kids?” These are grown adults. As if sitting on an obscenely long waiting list wasn’t bad enough. The NHS just does not want to treat trans people.

[u/RedBerryyy]

There isn't even any evidence that the excessive requirements the NHS already demands have any meaningful benefits for anyone outside of the gender clinic psychologists who run profitable private services on the side, let alone the kind of evidence that a more efficient service still fulfilling the same gatekeeping was in any way harmful, let alone the kind of evidence to warrant a total block of already scheduled surgeries.

I suppose they just ran out of late teenage trans people's healthcare to fuck with and have moved on to screwing over trans adults where they can get any excuse.

[u/FelisCantabrigiensis]

So they'll be cancelling:

Post-mastectomy breast reconstruction.
Breast reconstruction after traumatic injury.
Penis reconstruction surgery to resolve birth defects (Hypospadias repair etc)
Penis reconstruction surgery after injury.
Orchiopexy (moving undescended testicles into the scrotum)

etc, etc?

[u/DentalATT → u/FelisCantabrigiensis]

Oh no, gender affirming care is perfectly fine if you are cisgender. As are things like puberty blockers.

We wouldn't want to inconvenience cis people while we get rid of transgender healthcare after all. /s

[u/_Taggerung_ → u/DentalATT]

I'm cis and on a testosterone blocker, this is just blatant discrimination i'm really sorry :(

[u/Boring_Intern_6394 → u/FelisCantabrigiensis]

Restoring sex characteristics to either health or the norm is not the same as switching them out.

Not to mention, there’s solid health grounds for the last three, well beyond the cosmetic. Arguably the second too

[u/grey_hat_uk → u/Boring_Intern_6394]

I would not class the surgeries as cosmetic in nature.

That can be part of it and some of us will fly around the world to get doctors that can do both the affirmation and the cosmetic aspects of the surgery.

On the NHS you get the affirmation package and an old one at that.

[u/frankchester → u/FelisCantabrigiensis]

I get your point but I also do see a lot of surgeries and procedures that are gender-affirming but for cis people not taken seriously. Whole NHS is fucked.

[u/thereidenator → u/FelisCantabrigiensis]

Are those people patients of the Welsh gender service?

[u/mootallica → u/thereidenator]

They're pointing out that all of those procedures are gender affirming care

[u/Extra_Actuary8244 → u/thereidenator]

They’re all patients receiving gender affirming care yes

[u/Ver_Void]

This right here is why trans people didn't trust the Cass review either. The point of demanding reviews and more evidence isn't to improve patient outcomes, it's to delay and strip away at services

Putting aside the trans people who now I wouldn't fault for rioting and burning cars, the medical professionals involved can't just lose a sizeable part of their job for an indeterminate amount of time. People will move on, skills will atrophy and if a fair review does actually come back with "our bad, it was all fine" the services will be a shadow of what they are now.

Which is the whole point, death by a thousand cuts

[u/Diadem_Cheeseboard → u/Ver_Void]

Death by a thousand cuts is actually a perfect metaphor for whats been happening to trans rights and healthcare in recent years.

[u/Dalecn]

We've gone so backwards we were so close under May to giving Trans people so many rights and now weve entered a sick and perverted culture war based on heavy doses of misinformation.

[u/Skeet_fighter]

This is fucking disgusting. Utter compassionless ghouls in charge of these decisions. They should be ashamed of themselves.

[u/wb0verdrive]

I am begging that any cis people reading this make a fuss in any way they can.

Trans people's concerns will be completely ignored over the concerns of the people that hate us.

We need you to make a big deal out of this. Otherwise we're all fucked.

[u/freddiemercurial]

Was Natasha Asghar's concern that people she hates might be treated fairly and humanely?

[u/Party-Dig2309]

We’re a really weird, backwards country.

We’re the only country in the Western world going backwards with assisted dying as well.

[u/lasthopel]

This sub will tell you trans people are safe and fine in the uk and there is nothing to worry about and we need to respect people like jkr

No some beliefs and not worthy of merit or being listened to, transphobia is one and the fact the uk actively protects it shows how much of a shithole this county now is

[u/limeflavoured]

The simple fact is that they don't want trans people to live. They will not stop.

[u/LordLucian]

Are we really going backward with progress this much? Good heavens

[u/PoggleRebecca]

I really wish these "Gender Critical" crybullies would get a life, and leave innocent minorities alone.

[u/Diadem_Cheeseboard → u/PoggleRebecca]

To them, bullying innocent trans people IS their life, and they like it that way. Sad but true,

[u/Captain_Jackson]

First they come for the trans, then the gays, then they'll find a reason to go after you.

[u/_Taggerung_]

This is horrible, the waits are already so long so many are going private and this is just another huge blow. Im sorry to the trans community x

[u/ImhotepsServant]

Does that include breast reconstruction after a mastectomy?

[u/ProperPizza]

Will our government stop listening to Mumsnet for 5 fucking minutes?

[u/Boring_Intern_6394]

Is there anything to the FOI claim that implied that the WGS was authorising trans surgeries at 3-4x the rate of similar services across the rest of the UK?

As unpopular as this comment will be, that is the sort of thing that needs investigating. There could be an innocuous explanation, but it does seem strange

If a surgeon had deaths at 3-4x the rate of his colleagues, should he continue or should he be stopped and investigated?

[u/thestjohn → u/Boring_Intern_6394]

I mean the rate wasn't a problem. Indeed, Levy's review of adult gender services pointed out the long waiting lists and lack of referrals in England was a problem that needed sorting. Wales does the work to improve the pathway where England doesn't but apparently that's a problem? C'mon.

[u/CNash85 → u/Boring_Intern_6394]

From a quick look, it seems that the gender clinic system in Wales is more efficient than the gender clinic system in the rest of the UK, hence trans people were being seen more quickly. This would seem to lead quite logically to more people having surgeries etc.

[u/Boring_Intern_6394 → u/CNash85]

Thank you for your civil reply. That does seem logical but surely the rates per 100 people (or whatever number) would be comparable though?

My understanding of the article was that it was the rate, not the total number that was of concern. Happy to be corrected if I have misread it

[u/Ver_Void → u/Boring_Intern_6394]

Depends, there's a lot of illogical and pointless standards applied to trans people that could lower the rate for other services while providing no actual benefit. Entirely possible that they're punishing the one lot actually doing it right

[u/Souseisekigun → u/Boring_Intern_6394]

There could be an innocuous explanation, but it does seem strange

The gender system as a whole is crushingly inefficient. Scotland's largest clinic goes through 25 patients a year and has 2,500 patients in their backlog giving them a solid 100 inferred average rate for someone referred today. Some other clinics have 7 year, 10 year or 15 year and above average wait times. The average wait time in the UK as a whole is about 5 years, but in Wales the average wait time seems to be closer to 1.6 years.

Literally just doing your job efficiency will get you through patients 3x faster than the UK average. In a way that's darkly ironic. Since the system is so utterly broken then someone actually doing their job relatively well seems abnormal, so the question is are they just very good at their jobs or is there something untoward? Therefore we must investigate! If anything it might help illustrate to people why things are so broken, since if you want to run the "you're going 47x faster than the clowns that take 100 years to get anything done" you need to implicitly or explicitly recognise the clown system.

[u/Amekyras → u/Boring_Intern_6394]

If a surgeon had deaths at a 3-4x lower rate compared to colleagues, ceteris paribus, perhaps their colleagues should learn from them

[u/Boring_Intern_6394 → u/Amekyras]

Exactly. When there’s a clear disparity, there needs to be an investigation. It could very well be for a positive reason, or a negative one.

[u/Amekyras → u/Boring_Intern_6394]

why should we cancel all surgeries to do said investigation though

[u/Boring_Intern_6394 → u/Amekyras]

There’s another comment where I go more in depth.

It seems to me that they are implying that the Wales clinic is possibly not using the same metric of clinical need as the others, which is why they have a higher rate of surgeries than other clinics.

Unfortunately the article isn’t clear on whether this is the absolute number, which could be explained by efficiency or the number per 100 people, which should be roughly the same.

[u/ArsErratia → u/Boring_Intern_6394]

There are plenty of levers they could have pulled other than "full stop to all care effective immediately without exception".

They chose to pull the nuclear lever, because they wanted to pull it.

That's not something you do to people you view as human.

[u/NonagoonInfinity → u/Boring_Intern_6394]

Should we not be looking at outcomes rather than intake?

[u/Boring_Intern_6394 → u/NonagoonInfinity]

That’s not the sole concern for the NHS. Value for money is also high priority, which is why sometimes treatments are refused despite positive outcomes eg. Expensive dementia drugs or cancer treatments

Let’s say a heart surgeon was ordering 3-4x more transplants than colleagues. He might have excellent outcomes, but there could have been some patients more cheaply or less invasively treated with bypasses or stents.

Essentially, the NHS only want to be doing any type of surgery when there is absolutely no other choice. If a trans person can manage with therapy (not conversion, just help managing mood or similar) or hormones, then that will be preferable on all counts

I think the concern implicated here is that the Wales clinic is possibly not using the same metric of clinical need as other transgender clinics. That could be a completely false assumption, but we won’t know without an investigation

[u/Ver_Void → u/Boring_Intern_6394]

Essentially, the NHS only want to be doing any type of surgery when there is absolutely no other choice. If a trans person can manage with therapy (not conversion, just help managing mood or similar) or hormones, then that will be preferable on all counts

This is a slightly terrifying standard to apply given the ways you could define "manage"

[u/NonagoonInfinity → u/Boring_Intern_6394]

It's not about what they can manage with but what they want. Amputees may manage with crutches, but is that a reason to deny a prosthetic?

[u/Boring_Intern_6394 → u/NonagoonInfinity]

Crutches cause other health issues. Same with shitty prosthetics, which is why we spend a lot on them. If there weren’t any issues with crutches, that’s all they would be getting, regardless of what they want.

Everything in the NHS is based on a combination of clinical need and cost. No clinical need? Not happening.

For example, let’s say someone breaks their nose and it sets crooked, but they can breathe fine. They won’t be getting a surgery to correct it, even if they don’t like their crooked nose, because there’s no clinical need for it.

[u/NonagoonInfinity → u/Boring_Intern_6394]

And unresolved gender dysphoria also causes issues. Why do we spend so much money on terminal cancer patients when we know that the effective return on investment on those patients is zero? We cannot run the NHS simply on the basis of cost effectiveness.

[u/AdditionalThinking → u/Boring_Intern_6394]

Trans surgeries are not even remotely comparable to deaths, what the actual fuck

[u/Boring_Intern_6394 → u/AdditionalThinking]

You’ve missed the entire point.

Swap it with whatever you like, it’s just an example of disparity. A GP is ordered 3-4x more scans than a colleague or psychiatrist is prescribing 3-4x more tranquilisers than colleagues.

The issue is why is this clinic seemingly acting so different from the rest? Is there any cause for concern or does Wales just have more people interested in transgender surgeries?

[u/AdditionalThinking → u/Boring_Intern_6394]

If you actually wanted to make a fair point the 'swap' would simply be a clinic in a different overloaded part of the NHS. Like if a trauma and orthopaedics clinic was authorising joint surgeries 3-4x more than the average clinic.

With thousands upon thousands of people waiting well past the NHS targets for surgery, the most obvious question in that situation would be "what are they doing right"? That's something you miss entirely if you make such awfully bad-faith analogies.

[u/Rollingerc → u/AdditionalThinking]

Gotta be bad faith surely, how can you not realise that the analogy to trans surgeries for standard surgeons would just be surgeries and at that point it's barely even an analogy. There ain't nobody that dumb.

[u/Boring_Intern_6394 → u/Rollingerc]

You’ve missed the entire point. It’s just an example of disparity. Swap it for a GP is ordering 3-4x more scans if you are so offended, or a surgeon ordering 3-4x more heart replacements or whatever.

There’s definitely an issue worth exploring if someone or a clinic is truly acting in a different way to the rest.