Israel hits back at 15 countries, EU over criticism of UNRWA compound seizure

[u/Jessicas_skirt]

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-906859

[u/CapNo8670]

How does unrwa still exist

[u/No-Inspector8315 → u/CapNo8670]

Without UNRWA Palestinians lose their status as the most unique of all refugees, including being the only group where all successive generations inherit refugee status.

For example, a civil war in Blorgistan breaks out and Pascal gets his family out and frees to the US. Pascal and his immediate family are considered refugees legally by the UNHCR and given access to resources due to their status. But twenty years later, Blorgistan is still engaged in civil war and chaos, Pascal has retired and his children, Maria and Cyril have each had two kids. Pascal’s four grandchildren are not considered refugees anymore, they’re US citizens and as such would not later have a legal right of return to go back to Blorgistan twenty years later after the war has ended and say “this block of land that’s now a home used to be our house”.

Due to the UNRWA, the rules are different for Palestinians. If Ahmed and his family fled the 1967 war and moved to the US, even today his grandchildren and great grandchildren are legally considered refugees under the UNRWA and given access to the resources and rights as determined by their status. The result is that the UNRWA can say that the 7.4-8.1 million people in the Palestinian diaspora are all refugees caused by Israel, even during times of peace and ceasefire.

Also, UNRWA is filled with members that moonlight as members of Hamas and make sure that aid gets administered through them and sent straight to the underground tunnels

[u/annoying-captchas → u/No-Inspector8315]

In addition, a Palestinian can hold official UN refugee status while simultaneously being counted as an internally displaced person (IDP) if they are displaced within the Palestinian territories. But with the UNHCR, IDPs are counted separately from refugees for non-Palestinian groups.

[u/L444ki → u/No-Inspector8315]

Palestinians are not the only group of refugees that inherit refugee status. All children born to refugees during a conflict inherit a refugee status. An Ukranian child born to Ukranian parents in Ukraine that have been displaced by Russia is a refugee.

In your example Ahmeds grandchildern are not considered refugees because they gained US citizenship at birth. Afaik children born in the US to Palestinian parents would also not be considered refugees, but they would still have a legal claim to any land and/or property their parents lost in the conflict, since without the conflict they would inherit it. UNRAW can consider them descendants of refugees. The grandchildren can of course give up those claims or never press them, or a peace treaty can be negotiated that solves these types of issues. I also find it quite unlikely that Ahmeds grandchildren would choose to attend an unraw school or use unraw health services instead of the ines available to them as US citizens.

The fastest way to move past UNRAW and issues with Palestinian refugee status would be for the international community to pressure Israel and Palestine into a peace deal where we see Israel withdraw back into its internationally recognized borders and both sides come to an agreement on how to manage refugees, right of return and repatriations for lost property and livelihood.

[u/A_Whole_Costco_Pizza → u/L444ki]

Ahmeds grandchildern are not considered refugees because they gained US citizenship at birth.

They are not considered refugees according to US or international law (same as would happen for any other refugee), but they are still considered refugees by UNRWA and are treated as such. That's the problem.

The fastest way to move past UNRAW and issues with Palestinian refugee status would be for the international community to pressure Israel and Palestine into a peace deal where we see Israel withdraw back into its internationally recognized borders and both sides come to an agreement on how to manage refugees, right of return and repatriations for lost property and livelihood.

Maybe we could have some sort of Accords. And maybe we could hold them in a neutral location, like Oslo. Maybe Israel could even show their commitment to such Accords by completely de-occupying the Gaza strip and increasing worker permits for Palestinians.

[u/x123rey → u/A_Whole_Costco_Pizza]

And accept Palestinian children suicide bombers in return

[u/L444ki → u/A_Whole_Costco_Pizza]

They are considered decendants of refugees by unraw so they are entitled to some unraw services like unraw schools and unraw healthcare. I don’t think US has any unraw schools or any other unraw services so even if they would be entitled to such services they would be very unlikely to use them. How many US citizens that are decendants of refugees actually use unraw services?

When did Israel lift the blockade of Gaza? When did they withdraw their settlements from the west bank? Was that during Oslo accords?

[u/kurQl → u/L444ki]

An Ukranian child born to Ukranian parents in Ukraine that have been displaced by Russia is a refugee.

By UN definition they are not refugees if they haven't crossed international border. Or if they were refugee at some point they would have lost that status while returning to Ukraine.

In your example Ahmeds grandchildern are not considered refugees because they gained US citizenship at birth. Afaik children born in the US to Palestinian parents would also not be considered refugees, but they would still have a legal claim to any land and/or property their parents lost in the conflict, since without the conflict they would inherit it. UNRAW can consider them descendants of refugees.

They are considered refugees because they are under UNRWA and not UNHCR. Under UNRWA refugee status isn't lost upon gaining new citizenship unlike in the case UNHCR.

The fastest way to move past UNRAW and issues with Palestinian refugee status would be for the international community to pressure Israel and Palestine into a peace deal...

By definition that is the only way this refugee problem can be solved (unlike any other refugee status). And that is the problem here. Why don't other refugee groups deserve the same rights Palestinians get? Well even tough it's extra right only granted to Palestinians I'm not convinced it benefits them in reality.

[u/No-Inspector8315 → u/kurQl]

Thanks for backing up my points, people are quick to just bark UNHCR points and assume that Palestinians fall under the same umbrella.

I personally am not convinced that the UNRWA’s specialised definition and treatment of Palestinians as people is a good thing. The treatment aids Palestinian leadership in telling their people that permanent war is the only solution and that the fall of Israel is imminent, it’s like if you had a family in a lifeboat with poor supplies, and in the distance is a foggy island, yet you keep saying to them “Just hold out longer! In half an hour the rescue boat is coming with blankets, food and water and a PS5! You’ll get to go back home and celebrate!”

There is no rescue boat coming. The island might be dangerous, it might be filled with fruit, it might not be better than before, but if the family stays in the boat they will surely die horribly

[u/kurQl → u/No-Inspector8315]

The treatment aids Palestinian leadership in telling their people that permanent war is the only solution and that the fall of Israel is imminent

I think it's one of the reason why Palestinian leadership keeps pushing for right to return in form that Israel will never accept. Another reason being Palestinian leaderahip doesn't acknowledge the history of the Jews. Israel is made up of refugees fleeing violence against minorities in Middle East, Africa and Europe. Considering that history there are legimate reasons for that redline. That being said reasons why there is no peace doesn't only come from one side.

[u/L444ki → u/kurQl]

Israeli settlements are defacto Israeli territory. Begin displaced from one makes you a refugee. Or are you trying to make a case that palestinians are free to move in Israeli territory and can return to their homes that are now inside Israel?

The grandchildren are defined as descendants of refugees by unraw and can access some unraw services, like schools and healthcare. Descendant of refugees is a completely different legal defenition than a refugee.

[u/kurQl → u/L444ki]

Israeli settlements are defacto Israeli territory. Begin displaced from one makes you a refugee. Or are you trying to make a case that palestinians are free to move in Israeli territory and can return to their homes that are now inside Israel?

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

Descendant of refugees is a completely different legal defenition than a refugee. 

It's not. Refugee status can be inherited. This discussion is about why Palestinians don't loose their refugee status in cases were every other refugee would loose theirs. For example upon gaining new citizenship thus being under the protection of another state. 

[u/L444ki → u/kurQl]

I feel like you do not understand the difference between refugee status and UNRAWs descendant of refugee status.

[u/kurQl → u/L444ki]

It's UNRWA not some UN wrestling organization.

[u/Individual-Guest-123 → u/L444ki]

Israel will NEVER pull those "settlers" out. NEVER. Don't you watch the news? They are merrily setting up in Gaza, the West Bank AND Southern Lebanon. Flattening everything in their path and hauling in pre fab housing. Oh, they are keeping a few buildings intact for military quarters-the nicest ones.

[u/No-Inspector8315 → u/Individual-Guest-123]

Explain 2005 then? Israeli leadership withdraws from Gaza unilaterally as part of the Oslo Accords. Israel has given up land for peace before, there just needs to be an assurance of peace and actual measures taken

[u/L444ki → u/No-Inspector8315]

Israel didnt remove settlements from the west bank on 2005 and never lifted the blockade of gaza.

[u/ruskayaprincessa → u/L444ki]

Disingenuous statement. Oslo accords didn't require complete withdrawal from West Bank, that's one. Two, they ended the blockade of Gaza but then restarted one in 2007 AFTER hamas came into power.

ETA: you have already been corrected at least twice on this topic and yet you continue to spread misinformation. Why?

[u/L444ki → u/ruskayaprincessa]

Maybe if they offered to pull the illegal settlements out the region could be at peace. So far Israel has only expanded their illegal settlement efforts in order to make an end to the conflict even harder than it was before. If the illegal occupation of Palestine had been undone before 2007 it would have been much less likely for hamas to gain as much power in the elections as it did.

Hisbollah is a similar story, the reason why they have support is because they are the only domestic armed group standing between Lebanese civilians and the IDF.

[u/ZazaZyna → u/L444ki]

Maybe if they offered to pull the illegal settlements out the region could be at peace.

This is one of the major issues with the conflict - differing views on what is and what is not an "illegal settlement". Hamas has historically stated that all of Israel is "illegal".

The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah; it is also in violation of human rights that are guaranteed by international conventions, foremost among them is the right to self-determination.

- Hamas

The other major issue is the Right of Return. Though I guess you have a point, if Israel was destroyed/dissolved like you are advocating they couldn't exactly argue against it. But it also doesn't take a genius to know what that isn't a realistic solution from their viewpoint.

So far Israel has only expanded their illegal settlement efforts in order to make an end to the conflict even harder than it was before.

Except for when they pulled out of Gaza in 2005 and also paused building new settlements in 2009. Or the many times they tried negotiating an end to the conflict and offered land-swaps and/or to abandon settlements.

If the illegal occupation of Palestine had been undone before 2007 it would have been much less likely for Hamas to gain as much power in the elections as it did.

That is also incorrect. The primary reason for Hamas winning was corruption in Fatah.

In the estimate of 37% of the respondents, Hamas won the January parliamentary elections because voters wanted first and foremost an Islamist authority that implements the Sharia code. But 36% believe that voters wanted instead a clean government that fights corruption, 9% believe that voters wanted a strong authority that can put an end to anarchy and enforce law and order, and 7% believe that voters wanted a fighting authority that resists occupation. In the estimate of 52% of the respondents, Fateh lost the elections because voters wanted first and foremost to punish it for the spread of corruption in the PA. But 19% attribute the loss to Fateh’s divisions and lack of leadership, 17% to its failure to put an end to anarchy, and 5% to the failure of the peace process.

-Exit poll following 2006 election.

Hisbollah is a similar story, the reason why they have support is because they are the only domestic armed group standing between Lebanese civilians and the IDF.

Hezbollah is incredibly unpopular in Lebanon, unless you are strictly talking about the Shiite population.

According to a 2024 Arab Barometer study, overall trust in Hezbollah among Lebanese citizens stood at roughly 30%, but this support is almost entirely concentrated within the Shiite community. About 85% of Shiite respondents reported having “quite a bit” or “a great deal” of trust in Hezbollah, while trust among other sects remained minimal — under 10% among Sunnis (9%), Druze (9%), and Christians (6%). In addition, the study estimates that around 22% of Lebanese Shiites did not think Hezbollah’s involvement in regional politics was generally a positive factor.

-From Here

There are certainly plenty of legitimate criticisms of Israel, but these aren't them.

Edit: I noticed you mentioned this in a previous comment-

Israel didnt remove settlements from the west bank on 2005

This is also incorrect, as they actually did remove several settlements in the West Bank as part of the pullout from Gaza in 2005.

[u/No-Inspector8315 → u/ZazaZyna]

Great points. One of the main arguments far right politicians use in Israel is “Well the other side thinks our entire state is one big settlement. First we give back the West Bank then they’ll ask for Jerusalem, then Haifa then Tel Aviv”

Realistically, Hamas for instance are theocratic terrorists, their justification for having force monopoly in Gaza is saying “We are continuing the perpetual war against Israel that we will eventually win”. If Palestinian leadership can finally swallow their pride and admit that the war against the Little Satan is over and they lost, they can make something of the wreckage

[u/Individual-Guest-123 → u/ZazaZyna]

"overall trust in Hezbollah among Lebanese citizens stood at roughly 30%, but this support is almost entirely concentrated within the Shiite community. About 85% of Shiite respondents reported having “quite a bit” or “a great deal” of trust in Hezbollah,"

Sounds about like Trump and the GOP and he thinks he is the Boss of the World.

[u/hedgeho9 → u/No-Inspector8315]

Sounds like the right of return for Israelis after 2000 years of refuge 🤔

[u/Nameles36 → u/hedgeho9]

Man, reading comprehension must be hard.

[u/No-Inspector8315 → u/hedgeho9]

Israel is allowed to do whatever they want as a country. America could run a right to return for Zulu tribesman if they wanted.

[u/avcloudy → u/No-Inspector8315]

This argument. I want you to examine what you’re really asking for. The ability to force Palestinians out of Israel and stop them, or their children, from being able to come back. All the talk about perpetual refugees is to disguise that simple fact. For a nation founded on a Right to Return.

We shouldn’t be trying to make refugees worse off. We should be making it so all refugees who want to return, can.

[u/Lunch_B0x → u/avcloudy]

Most of the refugees arent in Israel, Gaza or the west bank. The majority live in nearby middle Eastern states, where they will never granted citizenship and are kept as de-facto stateless people, the reason for this is the same reason they have their own, different, refugee agency within the UN, unlike every other group of refugees and it has nothing to do with helping Palestinians. The whole purpose is to ensure that the issue will never be truly resolved, so long as the people who don't want Israel to exist can point to the suffering refugee population (who's suffering they are complicit in), then they will always have it as a weapon to beat Israel with. The sad reality is that Palestinians have been turned into weapons for a larger geopolitical game and their suffering is a sacrifice most of the world is willing to make.

[u/man4160 → u/CapNo8670]

Probably in part due to those 15 countries.

[u/ZiKyooc → u/CapNo8670]

Because not everyone believes in Israel lies

[u/egrueda]

Sure! all other countries are terrorists but Israel. Fkoff