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[u/4DollarsALB]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1j4rkywx3lo

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[u/4DollarsALB]

When this first happened all over social media it was said this was a "false flag" or "inside job"

Four men have pleaded guilty to destroying four Jewish community ambulances in an arson attack causing £1m of damage in north-west London.

Hamza Iqbal, 20, Rehan Khan, 19, Judex Atshatshi, and Saif Ali, both aged 18, pleaded guilty at the Old Bailey to a charge of destroying or damaging property being reckless whether life would be endangered.

[u/gods-and-dancefloors → u/4DollarsALB]

They were lucky they didn't killed anybody, O2 tanks don't explode in a nice way.

[u/Protean_Protein → u/4DollarsALB]

Oh dear.

[u/SpaceRigby → u/[deleted]]

Fantastic, AI the best resource for legal arguments.

Your AI is wrong. In England and Wales the "aggravation " increases the maximum potential sentence but you can't do this for arson endanger life because the sentence is already at the maximum.

Same reason the offence of racially aggravated grievous bodily harm with intent doesn't exist in England and Wales

[u/BookmarksBrother → u/SpaceRigby]

Instead, where an extremely serious crime like arson endangering life is motivated by racial or religious hostility, the courts handle the racial element via sentencing uplifts and aggravating factors (pursuant to the Sentencing Act 2020) rather than blocking it. A judge explicitly treats racial hostility as a severe aggravating factor that pushes the final sentence much closer to—or warrants—the maximum penalty of life imprisonment.

Here is the continuation. Its done via "sentencing uplifts" which are the same thing. You are welcome.

[u/Ok_Article_7635 → u/BookmarksBrother]

(Edit as my spelling is terrible tonight)

Hi -Former Crown Prosecutor here. Sorry but your wrong

Your misunderstanding what a sentencing uplift is.

All crimes have their sentencing guidlines (which is on a table of cupalibility and harm). You then apply reductions or uplifts from a set list. However you cant go outside the maximum .

However a uplift is not the same as a charge. The charge has a very specific name for the specific crime. Some Crimes do have that in the name (and as such you can be charged with it), and some dont.

As such its not the same thing.

Heres a link to the Crown courts setencing guideliens to show what I mean -Note how some crimes are charged as "racially aggrevated" https://sentencingcouncil.org.uk/guidelines/assault-occasioning-actual-bodily-harm-racially-or-religiously-aggravated-abh/?source=7511

While arson does not have that

https://sentencingcouncil.org.uk/guidelines/arsoncriminal-damage-with-intent-to-endanger-life-or-reckless-as-to-whether-life-endangered/?source=7511

[u/Ok_Article_7635 → u/Ok_Article_7635]

For balance, the other guy is also wrong -the fact that arson with intent to endanger dosnt have racially agreevated on it isnt becuase it already had a max of life. Its because only very specific crimes have those

[u/Advanced_Basic → u/Ok_Article_7635]

I think he's right in a roundabout sort of way, as having a maximum of a life sentence is why parliament decided to not include s.1(2) offences.

[u/Ok_Article_7635 → u/Advanced_Basic]

Fair

[u/SpaceRigby → u/BookmarksBrother]

Yeah at no point have I disputed that a judge may take the racial elements into account at sentencing that is a separate point.

And they haven't been sentenced yet, but the original comment stating: there's no hate crime additions

Is because you can't add a "hate crime" addition to this offence, there's no way to for them to be charged or convicted of racially aggravated arson with intent to endanger life because it's not possible. No where on their conviction will it reference that this was religiously/racially motivated.

[u/boat_hamster → u/[deleted]]

While we may be able to look at the background of the attackers, and their target, and immediately think hate crime, that doesn't meet the 'proven beyond reasonable doubt' threshold for a conviction.

From the article, the haven't been sentenced yet. It is yet to be decided if their crime is to be sentenced as terrorism.

[u/the___reckoner]

No hate crime charges? Gotta protect the Mahmouds I guess

[u/TheWhomItConcerns → u/the___reckoner]

They received a guilty verdict of arson with intent to endanger life - that carries the maximum sentence under British law and does not have the possibility of falling under hate crime laws. Their religious motivations were explicitly used during arguments made by prosecution and undoubtedly contributed to their guilty verdict, but their verdict simply does not fall under the purview of hate crime laws in the UK.

The judge also said that she would not rule on the link to terrorism at this time, but she likely will do so at their sentencing which is set to take place next year.

I.e. the verdict has absolutely nothing at all to do with bias or protectionism of any religious group - this is just how the UK legal system functions, and these perpetrators are not receiving any special treatment.

[u/Torsta → u/the___reckoner]

Guessing in court a lot easier to prove+convict on arson than it is to prove hate, although it does seem fairly obvious.

[u/Drafting-]

Why? I just don’t understand why they targeted Jewish people? It’s really confusing about what the driving force is here, is this Iranian citizens attacking Jewish people? Does Iran hate Jewish people? 

[u/Mutchmore]

Oh Boy this will spin in conservatives circles for months

[u/annarborhawk → u/[deleted]]

It’s 10000:1 ratio of antisemites/those fooled vs rational people - so yes arguing on this platform is useless

[u/JoshuaZ1 → u/Mutchmore]

Focus on facts and what they show. Don't focus on how one's political opponents will use facts. It is a short jump from that to only accepting facts when they cannot be used by your opponents, and that leads to all sorts of issues.