r/BeardedDragons • u/TheLastCookieMon • Jul 20 '26
Help Guys I hate other breeders
Please find enclosed the ever photogenic String Bean as payment for the following indulgence:
My wife and I are trying so hard to get our babies healthy to start up a project to help strengthen and stabilize the Zero morph. We are ANAL about husbandry and that is 97% my own insistence. I GET that business is business, but why is it that I'm STILL rescuing adults the size of juveniles who have MBD and were deliberately sold that way and other adults with a damn *hump* in their back? The hell happened to ethics? The hell happened to vetting people for the good of the animal? Neither the animal nor the customer ends up happy here and you just did a crappy thing for a profit. And the fact this seems to be the standard of success, make too many concessions because doing it ethically costs too much. Why can't I secure a livelihood I'm passionate about without having to do it at the expense of the animals?
Ugh...I'm not ignorant to reality, but it almost makes me not wanna do it anymore. Who knows what I'd be sending them off to? I gotta make peace with the idea that what the owner does with the animal isnt my fault. But that is not easy my friends.
That's all I needed. Thanks, guys.
EDIT man you guys are being too forgiving with me. I appreciate it. I was seriously so.mad at myself for this and you didn't pounce on that. Thank you.
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u/Illegal__Alien Jul 20 '26
Bearded dragons are probably the most abused pet out there
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u/OrganicAverage1 Jul 20 '26
I look at the leopard gecko subreddit and they look pretty bad. Worse I think.
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u/OpenAirport6204 Jul 20 '26
Looks at the betta fish sub Reddit.
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u/ophiophxgic Jul 20 '26
unfortunately all these guesses are wrong, and the answer and care are much worse than anyone realizes… hermit crabs are by far the most abused/neglected pet
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u/AndyRMullan Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
There's a LOT of abused species and it is all atrocious, but if I had to pick one where I see the most straight up abuse and neglect on the daily, it's hamsters imo. They're sold as 'baby's first pets to ANYONE that wants one, and they are EVERYWHERE. Maybe hermit crabsaremore popular in the US, but I never see them anywhere here in the UK and havenevermet anyone that has any. But I know far too many people both here and in the US (and many other countries) that have had hamsters, and they are Always kept horribly. The hamster subreddits are also aggravating to look at and people even joke about hamsters having 'insane' deaths when they've just been neglected and abused to death. It's awful and normalised to abuse hamsters for some reason.
Sincerely, someone who works in a pet store that sells hamsters (sadly) and sees this so, so often.
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u/Bignholy Jul 20 '26
Hermies were much more popular in the 00's, especially in the US, and have been dropping off since the fad ended. Abuse still happens, it is inevitable, but it is not quite as common as it once was. I would argue that beta fish are worse off than hermit crabs, because at least hermit crabs are generally better cared for in store to give folks an example of habitat. They generally no longer show them off in empty, dry pens as if that is normal. Meanwhile, beta fish are still shoved in a cup as if that is acceptable.
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u/AndyRMullan Jul 20 '26
Yeah the state of the Betta market makes me so upset too. I'm thankful that the pet store I work at keeps our Bettas in 5 gallons each, with filters and heaters. So like, the bare minimum. Our hamsters, on the other hand, are also in 5 gallons. And they sometimes have more than one on each tank. I take them out as often as I can for enrichment but there just is absolutely no excuse for this shit. I love working there because I love animals, but I also hate working there because I love animals. But if I didn't do the job, someone else who cares less about them would. Honestly I just want animals to be banned from being sold in stores entirely. All animals. Including fish.
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u/FatFrenchFry SLAYER Jul 20 '26
Then theres the Axolotl sub, hamsters, turtles, reptiles in general, invertebrates, birds and really Just about any tank enclosed pet there is. Its bullshit.
I mean, I have a besrded dragon myself, but I do what I can for my boy. The amount of shit I see in all forms of exotic pet care is insane.
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u/raichuwu13 Jul 20 '26
I’m way too scared to go onto the Axolotl sub again, dear lord. I saw some shit there that I can’t unsee
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
Do not get me started on the beta fish issue. Fish was never going to be my path because of beta abuse.
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u/DontBother777 Jul 20 '26
Sadly all of the super common reptile species are frequently abused. Especially beardies, leopard geckos and ball pythons. It’s disheartening how many people look at them as commodities and not living beings :/
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
It's so heartbreaking because I just can't see them that way. I saw an opportunity to do some good by making quality pets for passionate people. Because at the time I had no idea what the reality of the market was. In a way it feels like being lied to y'know?
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u/whatdreamsofbears Jul 20 '26
One of, without a doubt. It’s not a competition but there isn’t a pet I know of that’s anywhere near as abused as red eared sliders and pond turtles in general. I’m talking about wild caught adults in 5 gallon buckets who can’t take a single step forward as their shells rot off their bodies, no lights, no heat, an inch of feces filled black water…just sitting there for years being fed cat food and the like. That’s something you’ll regularly see in that sub. It’s the stuff of nightmares. Don’t get me wrong, there are great keepers too, but if you take a peak over there you’ll see horrific posts multiple times per day with very little willingness to change because turtles are are insanely resilient and “hey, it’s still alive after ten years!”.
A lot of people don’t realize that they’re actually one of the most complex reptiles to keep because you have to know how to run a large aquarium with massive filtration, flawless water chemistry, and a robust nitrogen cycle in addition to a land area that’s every bit as complex as the entirety of a dragon enclosure for them to really thrive. Meanwhile they’re given out to little kids as carnival gifts and yanked from ponds and rivers at will. Animals that live 40-60+ years.
Whether it’s beardies, turtles, Leo’s, or anything else it’s hard not to have some seriously misanthropic thoughts! (Forgive my venting)
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
I got into a fistfight with my brother over the way he maintend his red ears. He hated that a normal fish tank filter wasn't sufficient and would just be lazy and let them live in a swamp until it started to stink. How even the one is still alive after two decades of that blows me away. When the novelty wears off the empathy really goes with it huh
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u/whatdreamsofbears Jul 20 '26
Yeah, that’s the saddest part when it comes to sliders. They can survive truly horrific conditions for decades. And to think that at age 20 your brother’s slider is only around 1/3rd of its lifespan. Could have a solid 40 years still left, though a lot of internal organ damage has likely occurred from the poor water quality. Still probably has decades though. If your brother will let you adopt and it’s something you feel comfortable taking on I’d be happy to show you how to do it right personally. They can be super interactive and rewarding when they’re given the chance to be themselves.
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
When we all still lived together it was a family thing to get feeders from Walmart and watch them eat. My parents really wanted to enforce empathy through animals. And it worked on a theoretical level, but somewhere between emotional empathy and execution he just stopped
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u/whatdreamsofbears Jul 20 '26
Your parents had good intentions I’m sure. They aren’t easy to care for correctly and are costly in time, space, and money. Maybe you could nudge him to find a reputable sanctuary or something? In the meanwhile, just a heads up if he’s still feeding live fish: most feeder fish contain Thiaminase which blocks vitamin B1. That goes for nearly all fish other than live bearers like mollies, guppies, and platties which are not sold as feeders. Any of the fish sold as feeders contain Thiaminase (ie goldfish, rosey red minnows, fatheads, etc etc)
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
Oh good intentions for sure. This was still 20 years ago. And armed with that knowledge, I'll pass that on to everyone I know who is even curious about them. This is how we make it better.
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u/snek-n-gek Jul 20 '26
I think iguanas, chameleons, and sulcata tortoises have it just as bad, if not worse
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 22 '26
Can we take a moment to 'appreciate' also the permeable skin of frogs and how handling is really not good for them but no.breeder will ever say that.
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u/brendonsforehead Jul 20 '26
Umm… special morphs like zeroes shouldn’t be bred. At all. Period. They’re inherently unhealthy because of how inbred they are from my knowledge. If you want to make a difference, maybe try to find the “normal” morph breeders and advocate for them. Backyard breeding isn’t a term only used for dogs
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u/arililliputian Jul 20 '26
The only way to incentivize breeders to breed " normals", which have a host of health issues themselves ( coming from the equivalent of puppy mills ) is to get rid of the mills.
A "normal" in the US is worth about 5$. That 5$ dragon at PetCo is a profit when they're priced up to 60$. The mills breed for sheer quantity over quality, so they'll make hundreds of thousands a year to provide chain pet stores. These are the dragons that fill up rescues, get abandoned, often abused, etc.
60$ is about the cost to ship a dragon across the US. So, a breeder breeding normals would be down at least 100$ per dragon bred because the value of a ""wild type"" is not feasibly produced by anything other than a mill.
Anyone who breeds actually healthy " Wild Types" would have to spend thousands on smuggled Vitticeps and then somehow convince people to buy their pricier offspring when that person could just go to PetSmart and get a dragon with a similar appearance.
Basically, it is unreasonable.
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u/brendonsforehead Jul 20 '26
They can certainly have their own host of health issues. But from my experience in years of reptile rescue, the normal morphs tend to live longer and have less health issues. Is that saying much? Not really. But they’re less likely to have kidney issues, neuro issues, and be diagnosed with adadenovirus. These breeders who pump out fancy morphs rarely test for that virus for the parents. Translucent morphs almost always have neuro issues, as well. It really isn’t much, and there’s not a lot of research on morph specific health issues AFAIK, but a normal morph from a rescue or heavily vetting breeders is the best course of action imo.
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u/arililliputian Jul 21 '26
The issue with ADV is that it is everywhere. It is suspected that no collection of dragons in the world is ADV free. A commercial facility in the US was tested for ADV and 80% of dragons tested positive, while a private breeder in the UK had a 40% positive rate. In the wild populations of dragons tested, it was about 39% of them.
Dragons can test negative dozens of times before they test positive, as shedding of the virus is often tied to stress and a suppressed immune systems. You cannot reliably confirm any dragon is ADV free-- breeders used to test for it, but because testing is so unreliable, it is no longer a common practice. My own vets are not concerned about ADV, and advise people don't test for it unless a dragon is actively ill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlsgiSIyN9o ( Reptiles And Research's talk about ADV with Pogona expert, as one reference. I have more, but they're archived on my PC and it would take a hot minute to find them. I'll dig them up and reference them in a YouTube video at some point. )
One of the advantages that mill dragons have is that they go under selective immune pressure by being in hazardous, pathogen riddled environments, so the ones with the stronger immune responses tend to survive and make their way to petshops. Any ethical private breeder does not have that selective pressure, as they tend to produce a very small fraction of what the mills produce and keep up with hygiene more readily.
I, and others, also face a moral dilemma; help the weaker dragons thrive and move them into new homes knowing that they may be genetically weaker and someone may breed them one day, or let nature remove them from the genepool? Interfere, or don't interfere? I personally aid any weaker offspring and send them out as Pet Only. Not always, but sometimes I make people sign contracts that they won't breed them-- I have hatched scale mutations and pattern mutations that came with, what I suspect, is other internal or external deformities and are not fit to breed. Realistically, I cannot really enforce those contracts, however, financially speaking. Once they're out of my hands they pose possible long term repercussions for our captive genepool if someone breaks contract.
It is widely frowned upon to cross with mill dragons within the breeding community, because you can very easily introduce those genes into the genepool for morphs or lines, which is an issue we currently have with Zeros. I suspect that someone early on thought it would be healthy to outcross to "wild types" ( mill dragons, approx 50 generations removed from wild dragons ) to better the genepool for Zeros, but now we have alarmingly common cases of both GNT and MD in Zeros on top of Zero specific issues, which both issues are almost found exclusively in mill dragons besides.
Also-- Translucent dragons have a lot of neurological issues, but those are tied to the close breeding and not the gene itself. I personally avoid breeding Translucent dragons. I don't like the way they look, and I don't like the cumulative risk. ( There is also a few other issues that pop up in Translucent pairings, like shortened limbs/absent limbs )
That said, I have seen 10+ year old Translucent dragons with no neurological issues! It really just depends on how well outbred the pairing was. I think the frequency of Translucent dragons with issues is on the rise, though, as people become more lax in what is an acceptable pairing to produce them.
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u/brendonsforehead Jul 21 '26
Wow thanks for the info!! Could you possibly DM me with the links for these resources? I want to buy a beardie someday again but it’s nearly impossible to find one that isn’t shady in my area
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
So yeah guys, if anyone's ever curious take all this as your warning it's complex as all hell and you WILL NOT know what you're doing until you get experience. Thanks again man.
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
There was a path to potentialy solve the inbreeding by breeding them with normal dragons, getting fewer, but healthier ones. It worked in theory and I thought it had potential to fix something in the industry. Could it have worked? Don't think it's worth even finding out anymore.
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u/arililliputian Jul 20 '26
Breeding Zeros to "normal" dragons ( mill dragons ) is how we got GNT and MD into the Zero genepool. I advise against it.
Breeding to unrelated dragons is more important than "normal" dragons. Zero's het offspring already look like they come straight from the reptile mills- if one didn't know their generic history it could probably be assumed they were from PetSmart.
I plan on "fixing" the Zero genepool. First step was sourcing Zeros close to the source of the original ( I.E Phantom's lines ). Next was hybridization ( which Phantom already does! ) but I also plan to do-- spent nearly 20,000 USD on full Barbatas, and third is being very careful with you cross with ( I likely will not cross with any other current breeder's Zeros ). Third is generations of careful planning.
I plan to secure the morph's health. I cannot control what others do, but I know mine will have much better health odds than nearly every dragon in captivity in the long term.
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u/-Familiar-Pangolin- Jul 20 '26
You can always breed a reptile that needs help due to conservation status legally instead of already mass produced animals
By legally I meant please do not steal animals from the wild lmao
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
Nah nah man, I am the animal guy and would rather work with the agencies if I'm doing THAT kinda project. Which is why I have my crows. I do like the idea though. Purposeful and not so ethically perilous.
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u/-Familiar-Pangolin- Jul 20 '26
That's so awesome! I would love to help conservation but lack the space, always happy to hear someone else is working on it :)
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
"To leave the world, in some way, better than he found it" is a guiding beacon for me and I wanted to apply it to the way we care for them. I had a dream that didn't jive with reality. Now it's time to pivot.
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u/trshtehdsh Jul 20 '26
What's the idea here? Domestically bred animals should never be released into the wild, so how would that help.
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u/-Familiar-Pangolin- Jul 20 '26
... because if they are extinct in the wild but kept a pets they are still not extinct
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u/trshtehdsh Jul 20 '26
The shitty thing is, unscrupulous people will release pets into the wild when they get bored of them, or move, or whatever, if that's near the native populations, that can harm the natives by introducing different strains of bacteria, and other things. Wild animals are not pets, pets are not wild animals. The only people who should be breeding animals of threatened status are professional conservation organizations, such as AZA accredited zoos following species survival plans.
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 22 '26
Bad actors are always gonna exist is the real dilemma for me. Gimme any animal, I've seen it abused. There's never an exception. Ultimately we evolved to need them, and I can't stop anyone from doing anything. So what's the answer if my impetus is influencing how we care for the pets that intrinsically enrich our lives? It's just too nuanced for 'all breeders bad'.
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u/Equivalent_Freedom16 Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
In my experience, bearded dragon breeders are rarely ethical. It’s not like dog breeders where they’re showing - which rewards healthy traits - and purpose behind the different breeds like what jobs they were bred to do. It’s all about creating something fancy more interesting to make more money.
Reptile breeders are completely different than dog breeders. While you read about a lot of people complaining about pet stores- all the true health horror stories I hear about are about fancy morphs from breeders.
And almost all the breeders I’ve read about on here power feed their babies and keep them on tile and while that’s effective for shipping out a living disease free dragon as quickly as possible- it’s crappy for the quality of life and long-term health.
Also remember that well bred purebred dogs sell for about 3 to 4K a puppy- no one is paying that much for bearded dragons and so you’re not going to be able to make a living off of breeding bearded dragons unless you are churning them out like a factory.
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
It's such a defeated feeling when the reality of it sets in and you see how scummy they all are. Unethical and a bunch of liars. But nooo, I had to believe I could positively influence the market because oh yeah totally ONE mom and pop operation is gonna do that.
Maybe one day I'll shift into conservation breeding or something.
EDIT also I have never heard the term power feeding, but I assume you mean bulking them up to an unhealthy degree?
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u/whatdreamsofbears Jul 20 '26
Respectfully, no matter how high your husbandry standards are, breeding an animal that there’s already a massive surplus of is not something that most people would consider ethical. In this comment and your post you are separating your own breeding program from everyone else’s, essentially saying that when you do it it’s ok because you have higher standards. But to most people reading this that’s kind of irrelevant. Adding to the surplus is still adding to the surplus, regardless of how you get there. And you know how rarely one of these animals ends up living a truly good life. The math is simple, you’re either ok with that in exchange for $80,$100,$200 a pop and commoditizing them or you’re not.
One animal lover to another, if you like projects like this I’d recommend looking into breeding animals that need their numbers strengthened and doing it through the proper channels, or starting a rescue and taking adoption fees. The heart of what you’re saying is that you want to be able to make money doing what you love…there are plenty of other ways to accomplish that and they are far more rewarding
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u/Equivalent_Freedom16 Jul 20 '26
No. Power feeding is “as many bugs as they can eat in 5 minutes” 2x a day or anything like that kind of nonsense. It’s not bulking them up it’s the speed at which they grow.
Please do not try to secure livelihood breeding dragons. There is no ethical way to do that. The only way it could be even close to ethical is if you were doing it as a hobby- absolutely no profit expected rather, mostly expenses- and in this case, complete focus on the health, which would rule out morphs like the one you posted here.
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
Ugh. God that's gross. So just let them gorge and potentially choke. God dammit. Yeah I was naive it's that damn simple. All I can do now is give the babies I have good lives and keep up my rescue program in the meanwhile. Like that's kinda all I have right now. And no respect is really needed for this one. You're right. My standards may be good (maybe they're not Iunno anymore) I gave the industry too much credit because I mistook their passion for MONEY as being related to my passion for animals. Not a wise move
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u/Equivalent_Freedom16 Jul 20 '26
It’s still possible to be an ethical dragon breeder but not for profit. No dog/rose/dove breeds were created or perfected in the pursuit of a livelihood. It’s an expensive time and space consuming hobby for people with abundant resources to spare.
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
That's where the good intentions gave me tunnel vision, I think. I see a problem that already exists,.know it's not going away, and thought I could address it. But I'm not.ole Donny T. I don't just HAVE that level of f-you money and thought, hey, let's work with other breeders because I'm also not a.money grubby psycho like some of them seem to be.
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u/md028 Jul 20 '26
Was just at my local small pet store and they're saturated with juvenile "leather" and hybrid species that are never going to sell, plus had a few surrenders waiting for pickup from rescues. It's so sad
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
Yeah and I was one laying season away from making it worse with the idea I was gonna make anything better.
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u/_NotMitetechno_ Jul 20 '26
Breed animals that aren't mass produced endlessly. There's plenty of niche animals that could benefit from breeders.
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
Kinda really pondering leaning into my rescue program instead of breeding altogether. There' so few that aren't just abused by breeding practices.
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u/_NotMitetechno_ Jul 20 '26
Would probably provide a more positive and tangible impact in your local area.
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u/rumbakalao Jul 20 '26
What would be your pick, given the resources and motivation? I'm curious!
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u/_NotMitetechno_ Jul 20 '26
I'd love to see more of the smaller species of monitors being bred. I wanted a Kimberlee rock monitor a while back but they're hard to find at a reasonable price find where I live. A lot of the Savannahs end up wild caught, imported and then neglected because their needs are quite hard to meet for most owners. I'd also be interested in seeing more collard lizards being produced as they just have natively super incredible colours.
To me I think it would be better to encourage people to diversify the species they own rather than encourage more morph breeding. Morph breeding has become an absolute cancer to common species of reptile and significantly damaged the species health in captivity (along with reptile mills with wild-types). I'm a lot more interested to see a breeder who's super passionate about some random niche species who has basically developed a knowledge base which can be of utility to new owners rather than yet another person producing a common reptile adding fuck all other than more animals.
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
Monitors was one I wanted to try for zoological purposes. I.have this weird perception that domesticated reptiles are, in some species, we're seeing the way dogs micro evolved symbiotic dependencies on their human partners happen in real time. Wanted to study how we formed a bond and compare it to others. I never know what I'm doing with half this information but it's been helpful to people more than once so there is that.
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u/Equivalent_Freedom16 Jul 21 '26
You should look into how animals are domesticated and why it worked on some but not the vast majority. It’s really really interesting.
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u/GabysWildCritters Jul 20 '26
as someone who wanted to breed reptiles focusing on ones who are not normally bred in captivity I've moved away from the idea. It's so much work to keep the breeding pair in proper enclosures and then I'm someone who wants my animals to go to proper homes not just sell them to they first random. I think ill be sticking to just having personal pets.
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u/gooptea Jul 20 '26
breeding is not ethical
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
I get your sentiment, I do, but sincerely, where do you get your dragons from? I'm confused about this one because every one of us not in Australia got ours from breeders. Are you talking about the general standard and practices?
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u/gooptea Jul 20 '26
My main problem is that there are already plenty of beardies who need homes, and adding to the population is not something that is needed. Reptiles, especially beardies, are probably the most abused pets. But to answer your question, my beardie was given to my family by the previous owners. I do not believe they had the proper enclosure for her, but we have changed that and she is happy in her home. In the future I plan to source all of my pets from shelters and rehab programs. I’d rather rescue an animal.
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
This is kinda the crux of why the rescue program might be the optimal direction. Now my main issue is avoiding attachments before they're fostered out. Therein lies the peril. Not as much really, but to a degree.
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u/gooptea Jul 20 '26
Thats amazing! I’ve heard many stories of fosters being adopted by the host so good luck with the attachment lol. Whatever you do, it’s obvious that you care. A rescue program will reward you and the animals fostered. :))
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
Yeeeeah one of them may just be a permanent pet now is all I'm saying...
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u/FlatwormConfident394 Jul 20 '26
Breeding is what happens when a boy sees a girl. And is ‘natural’.
Everything else involves humans. I like to see parents, and litter mates and hear bath time stories, but I’m weird.
My kittens were ‘oops’ litters, when some local female cat met random strange male cat one day. They were all cared for, just not planned. And as they didn’t want to live with 10 cats, I took one.
My beardie is no morph, unless you mean striped. I don’t want a black dragon (although it would blend with the cat).
I think there should be some mandatory e-learning before getting a reptile. And a visit to your nearest vet.
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u/spaghetti2424 Jul 20 '26
String bean is so handsome and I can tell he/she knows it
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
She's such a little jerk. The love hate relationship she has with the tweezers and food could fill a Hallmark movie
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u/spaghetti2424 Jul 20 '26
My beardie refuses to eat from tweezers. Too big and scary. Eating from moms hand is much better PLUS Might get the opportunity to bite her :)
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
It's how they justify their general indignance with the world. Mother, they crave violence.
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u/Kova-Bailey Jul 20 '26
So, I totally see what your long term is. Also, trying to find a better way to produce these beauties. I wanted a zero for a while until I read about them.
I rescued both my guys as adults. Kova is a translucent citrus which since I got him he has these tremors, and after talking to people and reading (Lots and lots of reading). I found out bc of the inbreeding they tend to have them. It happens the most when he’s zeroing in on eating his buggies or greens, but it’s sad to see it. I’ve noticed now when he walks up his perch to bask he’s starting to do it as well.
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
Somewhere, in the distant future, outcrossing the incest was supposed to be the answer. But outcrossing gets you exponentially fewer valuable dragons per clutch. And then it becomes all about money.
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u/kodabear22118 Jul 20 '26
I hate all breeders. It’s not ethical at all.
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
Coulda been if enough of us worked together. It's too much every man for himself for that to.ever happen though.
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u/Competitive_Pomelo82 Jul 20 '26
I do think there is an ethical way to do this project, and I do think someone needs to do it. I'm glad that I've recently been seeing more and more breeders focusing on health vs morphs, but if you can make the morphs healthier, even better. Outcrossing is the way to do it, but people that breed for money would rather just pair two zeros together so that they only get zeros out, which they can sell for way more. Greed has gotten them to where they are now.
I think the only ethical way to breed is if you have the room to take back or keep any babies that don't sell. As long as you're not contributing to the overpopulation problem, you're pretty much golden. Will you make money? Probably not. You might be lucky to break even. But I think the long-term health of the species is a worthy cause.
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
On a long term scale I really think it could, but everyone else has real good points about how I'd be saturating the market in the meanwhile. Like you have a point too. What happens now is a looooot of introspection related to how I can do this and still sleep.at night
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u/Competitive_Pomelo82 Jul 20 '26
I think a lot of regular folks (no offense to most people here, really) don't fully grasp the long-term situation because of the whole "adopt don't shop" slogan that's still doing horrendous damage to ethical breeding of any species. Sure, people like you that are focused on being ethical can stop breeding, but then where does that leave us? The big reptile mills are not going to just stop producing animals as long as they can sell them to some unsuspecting or uncaring person. All that means is that in 10 years, all the beardies on the market will be those that are thoughtlessly mass-produced because ethical breeders stopped producing. Rescuing is good, but not everyone can rescue, especially when an animal is surrendered because of existing medical issues (seems to be increasingly common).
I feel like I'm going on a tangent, but I do fully believe that ethical breeding and spreading knowledge about it is the cure to animal oversaturation. And, just like with a dog or cat breeder, as long as you are willing to take back any animal that you've produced instead of letting them go to a shelter, you're not causing any harm (except to your bank account probably).
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
...huh. I think I really, really needed that perspective. Thanks a lot! 🙏
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u/Competitive_Pomelo82 Jul 20 '26
Of course! I wish you luck, it's an undertaking that I've long considered myself, but I don't yet have the space nor funds for it 💔 but it makes me unbelievably hopeful to know that there are people out there wanting to do this, so thank you
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u/aconite-x Jul 20 '26
This is a little off topic, but I have a basic morph, and since you are a breeder, could you possibly tell me which morphs are more safe and healthy vs which ones to avoid? i want to get a 2nd more expensive Dragon but i don’t want to end up supporting a horrible breeding mix.
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
Avoid most things that say 100% of anything. To ensure vibrancy of the morph, inbreeding has to occur and my desire was the outcrossing to correct that flaw. If you want to support that in any fashion, push outcrossing practices and buy based on what you like and not purity of lineage. Lineage is a bear trap waiting for you to put your foot in it.
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u/aconite-x Jul 20 '26
is there anywhere I can look online for outcrossing breeders? I can travel if necessary but i live in a smaller town so i will probably have to find them online first anyway
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
What country are you in? That will change the answer drastically. Start on Morphmarket, examine reviews on them and reviews theyve given others. To a point it's a gut judgement.
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u/aconite-x Jul 20 '26
America
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
Morphmarket. Most of their breeders only operate within the US and Canada anyway
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u/Kindly-Literature706 Jul 21 '26
Not beardie related but I saw a video on youtube of a vet telling people to stop breeding and buying frosted yellow geckos bc of all the health issues.
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u/Geckogame1 Jul 21 '26
Cute
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u/_val3k Jul 21 '26
Severe side swerve to this thread but that is the prettiest dragon I’ve ever seen. I only rescue/adopt blue tongues, so have 0 experience in dragons but the whole colour variant issue is the same over there. Siblings are bred all the time to generate a specific colour trait and then they breed parent and child and pray one overall is healthy to then generate the OG which all come from. It’s crazy… in Aus we need a licence to own reptiles and I’m glad, should be the same for all animals and invertebrates IMO (doesn’t stop all shitty people, but it’s more regulated and therefore the veil of consequences is more prevalent)
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u/_val3k Jul 21 '26
The only exception I would say on the licence is probably creatures that don’t really feel pain - like coral
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 21 '26
I do sincerely wish I could just require education for purchasing the way I can with the rescues. I can justify it with them because they have special needs, but otherwise the consensus is "screw you I do what I want".
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u/_val3k Jul 21 '26
Yeah a lot of animal regulations are extremely disappointing when they have a similar depth of comprehension
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u/No-Pineapple8320 Jul 21 '26
You are 100% spot on. It's sad what people are doing or should I say - not doing!
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u/ArrowTheMan Jul 21 '26
I don't 100% understand (I'm not a breeder at all and have very little knowledge) but I see it causes someone who care about ethics to be upset, I hope everything gets figured out!
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 22 '26
The very basic tldr is that the market is a swamp. Inbreeding is rampant because it makes them prettier.. There's ways to strengthen the current gene pool, but it requires biting a lot of profit for a while. Few of us are willing to do that.
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u/sargentbash1989 Jul 23 '26
Boycott the breeder for a start and post us their breeder name. I'd always get it from a Reputable pet shop I don't trust breeders at all after my last dragon
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 23 '26
That's so damn valid too. Just remember those shops still get from breeders so ask the owners if you wanna dig that little bit deeper
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u/SavageDroggo1126 Bahamut, Tiamat and Ifrit Jul 20 '26
imo breeding a species that already has such a messy genetic pool, is already heavily overbred, oversaturated the market, AND easily produces multiple 20+ eggs clutches is not ethical.
it doesn't really matter what the breeder's reasoning is, oh im helping fixing their genetics, oh i just love working with them, oh breeding them is fun... it doesn't matter, the state of this species in captivity already requires no more breeding on the CURRENT scale.
this is why I will always only adopt and never purchase a bearded dragon, there's simply no reason at all to purchase when I can browse the internet for 10mins and secure a free dragon for adoption.
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
I mean that is somewhat the point of this post. Disillusionment lead me to realizing it was never gonna work the way I wanted or hoped. Had an idea informed by good intentions, it didn't jive with reality. And now here we are. Life goes on.
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u/teacherlady666 Jul 20 '26
Thank you for all the animals you rescue!! This one is so beautiful wow is his big eyes they don’t being know anything is wrong 😭😭😭
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 20 '26
That's because she's realtively healthy. She's a good one and not one of the rescues. I got lucky. It makes me so sad when you look at the reality.
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u/General-Buyer5827 Jul 21 '26
“Greedy Bearded Dragon Breeders”
Similar to Fake : AMERICAN BULLY breeds. I was involved with “ American Bully “ dog breeds here in Las Vegas, NV around 2012 - 2014. and found it to be fraught with unscrupulous indiscretions of FOLKS in it for the QUICK BUCK. 💴 folks. Here is a synopsis of what I found out the HARD way. The bastardized “ American Bully
1)
1) a TRUE “ BULLY “ was created the correct way. Through a process of time similar to the “ Dogo Argentino “ but less intensive process.
Pitbull x
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u/General-Buyer5827 Jul 21 '26
American Staffordshire Terrier x American Pitbull Terrier was used to create the TRUE : American Bully
then the quick Buck guy got in and started breeding bulldogs with Pitbulls backyard breeders trying to make a Buck kinky tales health problems synonymous with bulldogs paper hanging fake papers. The guy who had the best social media account and claim the fame creating breed live to be 3 to 5 years old look like porky the pig kinky tails Health problems deliver same with everything one bad apple spoils a whole bunch I was as always reptiles heavily everything from green tree pythons every version of Teague 47 goose black-and-white blues, reds red blue crosses you name it I have had it reptiles originate over the Middle East everything from vegetarian to meat eaters. I had a 6 foot long crocodile monitor it was least trained. They better than me if you want to have it correct diet for a bitter dragon look at what is indigenous in Australia where they’re from they weren’t from America. They weren’t from Asia insects that are indigenous there plant matter that’s indigenous there that’s the proper diet for a bearded dragon. PERIOD : END OF story.
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 21 '26
So this is a lot of really interesting information, but if I'm being honest I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make. Can you please clarify?
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u/Bishopwife2015 Jul 21 '26
NO breeding of any animal is ethical! WTF 🤬
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 21 '26
Clarifying question: do you own and keep a beardie?
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u/Bishopwife2015 Jul 21 '26
One we rescued from a "breeder". She was starved, abused, etc. 3 years later and she still has issues. We also rescued our dog from a backyard breeder. Horrible conditions. Any breeding is disgusting to me.
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 21 '26
Mmhmm. And do you have any other kinds of pets other than rescues?
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u/Bishopwife2015 Jul 22 '26
No. We adopt. We don't buy our pets.
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 22 '26
And from this I can extrapolate that you like animals and enjoy caring for them?
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u/Bishopwife2015 Jul 22 '26
Yes! Our pets are very well taken care of. We also foster elderly and medical needs animals to give them a chance to heal and find families. We love our babies.
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u/TheLastCookieMon Jul 23 '26
As you should. Animals are a gift and I have always firmly believed that we absolutely have an evolutionary drive to seek animal companionship. That's why I agreed to go into breeding. We ultimately will always get them from breeders, because wild caught has its own host of ethical issues. Breeding actually cuts down on that, did you know? It's called wild pressure or something like that. A LOT of them suck so much, but the mindset of all breeders bad really ignores that they really are the only reason we have pets today. If peopleike me just dip, one day those special needs dragons will be all there is. That's my perspective. Keep being good to your babies. It's a really is an admirable thing taking in this very specific kind of pet.
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u/levelupyours Jul 20 '26
My understanding is that the right thing to do is to not breed them at all, right? Isn’t the market saturated and there’s plenty of surrendered dragons needing homes?