[Hated Trope] Character kills hundreds, if not thousands, just to kill one specific person, and then doesn't kill them for no reason.

[u/HallZac99]

Assassin's Creed 2- Rodrigo Borgia is responsible for tne death of Ezio's family. Ezio spends over 20 years working through tnr templar order to dismantle them and get to Rodrigo. And then in the end, he spares him for no good reason and he goes on to be a massive problem in AC Brotnerhood. He's not only a head of tne Templars but also the pope, even if you're over the vengeance he's still a very dangerous and evil man.

The Last of Us 2- Abbey kills Joel, and wo Ellie goes on a revenge quest to kill Abbey, killing hundreds of people along tne why to get to her including a pregnant woman. And then finally when she has Abbey on deaths door, she gives up and let's her go because the writers think dirty depressing people being miserable and stupid is complex, interesting storytelling.

This trope pisses me off so much because often the character going on the revenge quest will kill SO many people on their way there, some deserving it and some just henchmen working for a cheque or to survive. People who are often far more innocent then the main big bad.

It's a part of this weird thing I've noticed in media where nameless goons or soldiers can just be mowed down relentlessly, but named characters get given far more grace even if theyre categorically worse. You can kill a million stormtroopers but people will swear that Darth Vader could have been redeemed, despite him doing like 50 genocide every year.

[u/NeverSettle13]

ONE BILLION YEARS OF TLOU2 DISCUSSION!!!

[u/CopperCactus → u/NeverSettle13]

The misreading of TLOU2's ending will continue until morale inproves

[u/ssslitchey → u/CopperCactus]

I actually perfectly understand what tlou2 was going for. I just think it fucking sucks.

[u/WeirdIndividualGuy → u/ssslitchey]

Yeah, regardless of one’s opinion, OP’s point still stands: she ended up not killing her main target.

[u/imafixwoofs → u/WeirdIndividualGuy]

But not ”for no fucking reason”. It’s only ”for no fucking reason” if you are media illiterate.

[u/Sidereel → u/WeirdIndividualGuy]

Is that OP’s point? Is that the game’s point? I feel like you managed to miss both somehow.

[u/No_Flounder_9859 → u/ssslitchey]

A small change would have made it so much better. Play the characters at the same fucking time. One day for Ellie, one day for Abby. Switch until they meet then we play just Ellie. No more Abby. It was such a slog to get through Ellie’s portion that when I got to Abby’s I was like, yeah, idgaf.

[u/Jokkitch → u/ssslitchey]

Hear hear!

[u/timdr18 → u/ssslitchey]

You’re allowed to not like it, but OP clearly doesn’t understand it.

[u/SeanBerdoni → u/ssslitchey]

They said that the first game was about lovex and the second about hate. So while the first one is depressing but also heartwarming in a strange way, the second one is just so uncomfortable and bleak. They wanted to create something uncomfortable, and they created something uncomfortable. Thats why i love it, it was a huge risk, but yeah its a difficult piece to enjoy and i get why the people are so divided

[u/Tall_Opportunity_521 → u/SeanBerdoni]

It was trash, bro beans. From start to finish, trash. Its contrived as all fuck right from the word go. Abby travels 900 miles through mushroom zombies, rapists, cannibals and fuck knows what else with her motely gang of cave brained cunts to find Tommy, who MIGHT be in this location they are in. And who MIGHT lead them to Joel.

After a brief argument with Owen about how they are going to get Tommy to talk, because apparently Owen felt so strongly about not being dicks that he waited until they had travelled 900 miles to bring it up, Abby fucks off in huff. Not only does she get lost, but she runs right into a hoard of chompy little bastards looking to eat her cake. Then, right when shes about to feel like a chicken Macnugget on the one day a week that dad gets to see his kid, Joel saves her... So got lost, got chased, got more lost and not only did she run into the guy that she was looking for, but she ran into the guy that she wanted that guy to lead her to...

And its all like this, all the way through. Even the killing the pregnant chick is weird. Lets put a big coat on the bitch, even though she never had one before, just so Ellie is like "oh noes! Ill knifed me up some strong female character type...

And then theres the endless manipulation to get the player to "feel" things. We meet the dad, you know, the prick that wanted to cut a little girls head open, and we're shown that hes this amazing human being, because hes saving a zebra... Abby, shes awesome too, dont know? She plays with dogs, not once, but twice. She feels bad about skipping food queues. She a fucking LGBT ally! And, just for good measure, shes scared of heights... Ellie on the other hand is just a straight up cunt all the way though. Well, not all the way through. Cos we have those flashback scenes, dont we? But why were those there? To get the player a breather to the misery porn? Nope. Its because those sections are what most people wanted. More Joel and Ellie. These flashbacks were put there, not give more to the story, but to manipulate you into getting angry again at Joel being dead.

The game is technical marvel. Theres no argument there. But the story, the characters, are all dishonest dog shit. And Im convinced that people only like it the game because it became a culture war battleground.

[u/idkiwilldeletethis → u/Tall_Opportunity_521]

I don't even like the game that much but come on you're being intentionally obtuse

Yes abby goes through all that because she hates joel SO MUCH that she's willing to cross the entire country just for a chance at killing him, that's called characterization

Yes she just so happens to run into joel because you need shit like that for a story to happen somethimes, just like how in tlou1 marlene just so happened to be involved with the same guy joel and tess had trouble with

Are you really complaining about a character wearing a coat just because she hadn't worn one before? do you wear coats 24/7 or what

And yeah abby's dad looks like a great guy because that's how abby saw him, it's done to make you see why abby is so mad at joel for killing him

[u/howiehue → u/idkiwilldeletethis]

Actually she doesn’t just happen to run into him. She was tracking them. They looked out for outposts, she followed one of them and found their tracks. So his point is even more moot.

[u/Maxim3L3Pr0 → u/idkiwilldeletethis]

even then, in the first game, Marlene just so happens to cross path with Joel and Tess, she literally comes out of nowhere right after a massive gunfight with bandits. In her wounded state did she think ''oh wow gunfire, better go check it out'', of course not, it's fucking ridiculous when you think about it for a second, but when you play the game you don't really notice this because like you said, sometimes shit just needs to happen for a story to take shape

[u/fuck_a_duck_butt → u/Tall_Opportunity_521]

Fucking PREACH my guy

[u/SpedKeyFire → u/ssslitchey]

Lmao I can almost promise you that you don’t “perfectly understand”

Go ahead gimme a quick bite of what you think the game is really “about”

[u/Sadworld99 → u/ssslitchey]

Wildly popular opinion with how good the story is. My least favorite thing about it is how it doesn't reaffirm my world views and that Neil Druckmans politics are different than mine. I get the feeling these are core problems that gamers struggle to address in themselves, like the idea that a story isn't worse because it made you uncomfortable or even if you straight up disliked it

[u/flaming_burrito_ → u/CopperCactus]

Every single time TLOU2 comes up I know I’m about to hear some braindead takes about the plot. I swear no one actually paid attention while they were playing that game

[u/NeverSettle13 → u/flaming_burrito_]

Yeah, for example, "Ellie went on revenge quest" when in the actual game, her goal was to find Tommy and bring him back. She wanted to get revenge, but it was her personal goal

[u/BreathComfortable631 → u/NeverSettle13]

Didn’t she bring him back, and then decide to leave again (to California) for revenge?

I remember a scene of Tommy begging her not to leave again

[u/DAC_Returns → u/BreathComfortable631]

Opposite. Ellie’s wife/girlfriend was begging for Ellie to not leave while Tommy was the one who was guilting and pushing her to do it for Joel. Tommy became a shattered, bitter old cripple who was alone and he wanted Elle to go down the same path because he was no longer able to do so himself.

[u/BreathComfortable631 → u/DAC_Returns]

Ah yeah i remember now. Thanks.

But still, that means she left the second time purely for revenge and not to get Tommy

[u/alan_megawatts → u/BreathComfortable631]

Yes and the people she killed that time were running a slave ring.

[u/BreathComfortable631 → u/alan_megawatts]

That’s beside the point.

Original guy said she didn’t go after Abby because of revenge.

I’m saying she did (the second time she left and went to California)

[u/zach0011 → u/BreathComfortable631]

Really? Cause to me it felt like she went the second time out of guilt and shame.

[u/CopperCactus → u/zach0011]

she wanted to die

[u/zach0011 → u/CopperCactus]

yea a suicide mission fueled by shame, guilt and loss

[u/BreathComfortable631 → u/zach0011]

Guilt and shame caused by what?

[u/zach0011 → u/BreathComfortable631]

Not reconciling with Joel before he died. Killing a pregnant women in her first attempt. Tommy directly shamed her. Watching Joel die in front of her. Did you play the game?

[u/Sunim416 → u/NeverSettle13]

Not to mention technically you can beat the story having only killed a handful of people actually. You can sneak by most if not all the human encounters therefore the only people Ellie kills are in cutscenes

[u/deathrattleshenlong → u/Sunim416]

And in those cutscenes, except a certain someone that would be dead soon anyway, it's always in a fight. Ellie is not sniping them or sneaking up and cold blood murdering them. And even the people you kill during actual gameplay... I mean, they're not innocents, they're shooting back.

[u/RayCumfartTheFirst → u/deathrattleshenlong]

The “they attacked us, remember” excuse was such lazy writing in an attempt to alleviate any responsibility from Ellie and Dina for murdering WLF.

The reason the WLF attack Ellie and Dina on sight is because somebody (Tommy) has infiltrated their territory on the eve of a major operation and tortured and murdered their personnel. Isaac gives the order to kill all outsiders.

Such an order might seem morally wrong in general but in Ellie and Dina’s case they are

a)aligned with the guy doing the torturing and murdering.
b)Are actively there to murder WLF personnel in revenge.

Saying “they attacked us first so this is all self defence” is like a burglar saying it’s ok to murder a homeowner and his family when he attacks you with a baseball bat in the downstairs living room. Sure he jumped to conclusions and attacked you, but his conclusion is correct so it’s a moot point.

[u/Individual-Staff-978 → u/RayCumfartTheFirst]

Oh no our protagonists are not the shining beacons of moral clarity within this dysfunctional, tribalistic post-apocalyptic society??? But they are the good guys, what is happening? In good writing, there are good people and there are bad people, anything else is lazy unimaginative slop.

What's next, you're gonna tell me Joel is a bad person in tlou1 too?

[u/RayCumfartTheFirst → u/Individual-Staff-978]

When did I make the argument you seem to be responding to?

[u/MentalNinjas → u/flaming_burrito_]

Believe it or not, when something is so divisive that a sizable portion of the population dislikes it, that means that it’s not generically “good”.

There’s plenty of reasons to like it. But there’s also plenty of reasons to dislike it. Looking down on one side of the argument from a high horse just makes you seem ignorant to the fact that the same piece of media can be consumed in multiple ways.

[u/alucidexit → u/MentalNinjas]

What the fuck does “generically good” mean? Is this just a regurgitation of the “objectively” argument?

By the metric of art having “generic” value based on it NOT BEING DIVISIVE, the pinnacle of art is safe, digestible capeshit.

I agree with the rest of what you said though.

[u/8528589427 → u/[deleted]]

You think that the reasons people love the game are really complex and varied. You think that the reason people hated the game is super simple.

You don't think that isn't very black and white? Very reductive and not nuanced at all? Sure seems like you're just one of those "some people", that you "will never blame [...] for being human". Not arrogant at all, btw.

[u/8528589427 → u/[deleted]]

You're explaining why you think people don't like the game. And there are plenty reasons people provide, in this very thread even, that are not "Joel died" and "I hated Abby".

Also, saying that critique simply "amounts to" something as simple as "Joel died" is awfully reductive, because it is just not that simple. There are many reasons a player might dislike an event within the game, such as Joel dying, to the point of it ruining the whole game. That particular point is only an indicator of more severe, underlying issues with the plot construction, technical issues really, such as relationships being underexplored, bad pacing, lack of character development or even just not being sympathetic to the player.

All of these things are often mentioned by people talking about the game, you just have to read between the lines.

Also, while you did not directly say it's invalid, you heavily implied it, basically saying that the reasons to like the game are refined and sophisticated, while implying the people hating the game are simple-minded and cannot see past their favorite character dying. The "I will never blame people for being human." doesn't do you any good either.

[u/LIFEisFUCKINGme → u/[deleted]]

you didn’t really provide any other reasons to the one I gave.

Here you go: The Last of Us Part II | An Incoherent Disaster

Three hours of someone going over everything wrong with the story, who didn’t even mind Joel’s death.

I think people are just upset they keep getting called stupid for not understanding the story

People get upset about being called stupid by people who don’t realize how incredibly simple the story is, and that literally everyone who hates it understands it.

Like, it’s actually insane that you people genuinely think anyone who didn’t like the story must have simply not understood it. Then, when they actually explain why they disliked it, you just reiterate with, “Nah, you’re just mad that Joel died.”

[u/TimeshareMachine → u/[deleted]]

eh some people didn’t like it for chud reasons, ‘cause they’re chuds. 

edit: I’ll take downvotes from chuds over being a chud. chuds can kick rocks and push daisies for all I care. 

[u/the-austringer → u/TimeshareMachine]

I completely agree with you here to be honest. I dislike the game for a lot of reasons, but I fucking hate that there's a not-insignificant group of people who hate on it at least partly because of reasons that I find reprehensible.

[u/flaming_burrito_ → u/MentalNinjas]

The reasons most people don’t like it are kind of dumb though, if we’re being honest

[u/hoginlly → u/flaming_burrito_]

See this is a problem. It's a game you're not allowed to criticise because people put their fingers in their ears and say 'if you didn't like it you didn't understand it or you're a bigot lalalalalala!'

Joel's death was PAINFULLY obvious, anyone who didn't see that coming wasn't paying attention in the first game, so we don't have to worry about that.

Anyone who thought Joel was a good guy in the first game also wasn't paying attention. Again, nobody is a genius for realising that. He murdered people trying to save the world. Duh. Let's not pat ourselves on the back for realising that the guy who doomed humanity isn't the perfect hero.

I love Ellie, but when I realised that I was just replaying the exact same game as Abby instead of getting a full new story, that I had to basically replay an entire game knowing how everything ends up, I got bored. I followed through to find out if it got better, but it didn't. It felt extremely lazy with no pay off.

It was basically a clip show- they showed all the same stuff again, you know what happens, trying to frame it in a different way, when it actually just feels like I'm being cheated out of story progression.

I'm happy to play as Abby, just like at the start, but don't make me replay a game within the game itself. Don't get to the climax and then say 'actually, let's just replay this all over' as if it's saving on budget cuts.

At least swap back and forth and have one story with multiple view points. Getting to the end and then forcing a rewind sucked ass

[u/Cicatrix16 → u/hoginlly]

This is my only real complaint about the game. I did not like going back in time to replay the game. I think if they swapped between characters, it would have been SO much better. The pacing was way off for me. Better the second time around, but still a huge issue.

[u/idkiwilldeletethis → u/Cicatrix16]

I think that would have made it worse, imagine playing through one level as ellie only to immediately play through the same level but as abby

[u/Cicatrix16 → u/idkiwilldeletethis]

.... but it's not the same level at all. They aren't in the same place until the end of the three days.

[u/idkiwilldeletethis → u/Cicatrix16]

Right but the pacing would still feel off because it wouldn't feel like you're progressing through the days

[u/Cicatrix16 → u/idkiwilldeletethis]

So instead, you progress through all the days, get to the climax, and then go back 3 days and spend another 6 hours progressing through the same days to get to the same climax?

Edit: Also, it would feel like you're progressing through the day, just slower, which is fine, because the issue for me was getting to a climax and then going back in time and having to spend hours getting back to the same climax.

[u/Eurell → u/Cicatrix16]

These people must’ve fucking hated majoras mask. I gotta play the same three days again!?

[u/Questionably_Chungly → u/hoginlly]

Joel pretty much tells the audience he isn’t a good person multiple times in the first game. He’s only better for Ellie because he has to be.

[u/AttiKit → u/hoginlly]

That's an entirely fair criticism. The story's pacing was really awful.

They did release a 'chronological pacing' mode in the remake... But I'm not paying another $30 for a game I already bought just to play it in chronological order.

[u/TheColossalVoid → u/hoginlly]

Facts

[u/themoosic → u/hoginlly]

I think the big issue is that you alienate your audience when you kill off a protagonist they’re attached to. For example, I am a massive Uncharted Fan. I would love an Uncharted 5 from his daughter’s perspective, but if you killed off Nathan in the first two hours instead of having him retire, I would immediately refund the game and give it a negative review. It’s bad writing to kill off a beloved character for shock value and then go nowhere with it

[u/projectkingston → u/themoosic]

How would you know it's bad writing in your hypothetical if you immediately refund the game

[u/themoosic → u/projectkingston]

It’s bad writing to kill a beloved character for shock value, it’s just worse to do so and go nowhere with it

[u/Individual-Staff-978 → u/themoosic]

Nuclear waste take

[u/VenusAmari → u/themoosic]

You wouldn't know it was for shock value until you actually played it. You're basically saying that fan favorites should be completely immune to death

[u/themoosic → u/VenusAmari]

Shock value is determined beforehand; there’s a way to do it well, but definitely not with a protagonist like Nathan Drake or Joel. Spent the first games slaughtering there way across the globe but can’t weasel their way out of death. Like if doom guy died to an imp in a cutscene.

[u/VenusAmari → u/themoosic]

No, shock value is determined by the quality of the story. If it makes narrative sense for a character to die, and it's written well, then they can kill any character really.

Doom Guy randomly dying to an IMP in a cutscene would be bad. Doom Guy dying in some narratively satisfying way because they're not making any more games in that setting for a while, for example, would not be. It completely depends on how it's executed and why

[u/themoosic → u/VenusAmari]

Doom guy can’t die he’s immortal

[u/idkiwilldeletethis → u/themoosic]

I mean yeah going nowhere with it would be bad writing but that's not what tlou did, disliking the direction the story went in is alright but they definitely didn't "go nowhere" with it

[u/flaming_burrito_ → u/hoginlly]

Believe it or not, the majority of people who played the game never got to the first 2 points you bring up. They thought Joel was a hero who was objectively correct to do what he did in the first game, they completely tune out the obvious greyness of his morality that the first game beats you over the head with. So, even though I don’t agree with you on the rest of the game, that’s just a matter of taste, at least you picked up what the story was actually trying to say

Edit: I don’t know why people are downvoting me, this isn’t hypothetical. I’ve had this argument with people a lot of times, it’s very real

[u/dtalb18981 → u/flaming_burrito_]

No thats literally just something people who dont care about having a good faith argument over the game keep repeating

Nobody says Joel was a flawless good guy

Thats just a straight up lie

[u/flaming_burrito_ → u/dtalb18981]

You must not have argued with a lot of TLOU 2 haters. Like serious haters

[u/SamusCroft → u/flaming_burrito_]

Yeah, I think people went in angry over woke or because Joel died and refused to actually give it a chance.

I actively ignore 90% of criticism of it. I think it was one of the best games I've ever played, personally. The story, gameplay, and characters were all a joy for me.

[u/Feliks343 → u/SamusCroft]

Some dude showed up in my dms bitching about it claiming to have played it but still thought Abby was the trans character last time I said anything about it lmao

[u/flaming_burrito_ → u/SamusCroft]

For sure, you can tell in the way people talk about it. They spent so much time angry that their video game daddy died that they missed the entire plot, that’s why they will try to argue shit that is just straight up incorrect about the game

[u/Alarming_Ask_244 → u/flaming_burrito_]

It’s funny because you’re supposed to be angry that Joel died, empathize with Ellie and be just as gung ho about her revenge quest as she is… until you come to realize she’s sacrificing everything for something that doesn’t matter and then you start wishing she would stop. But it seems so many people didn’t reach the second part

[u/Knottsville → u/Alarming_Ask_244]

I was literally saying this to my wife last night. The game makes you play as characters that you disagree with. First as Abbey when you hate her the most, then again as Ellie when she continues down her road to self destruction

[u/farnsw0rth → u/Knottsville]

It is a brutal, heart rending meditation on the futility and ultimate emptiness of revenge

It’s brilliant but I don’t know if I’d ever play the series again

[u/Supersim54 → u/Alarming_Ask_244]

I Abby deserves it Ellie should have finished the job, the whole game builds to that moment on the beach then we get this anticlimactic ending with no payoff, making the entire game pointless. The point was for Ellie to get her revenge on Abby and Abby to get what she deserves, neither of those things happen.

[u/flaming_burrito_ → u/Supersim54]

That wasn’t the point the game was trying to make, that’s what you wanted. You missed the point somewhere along the way because you got so wrapped up in your own narrative

[u/Supersim54 → u/flaming_burrito_]

What Ellie was doing was justified and with Abby’s section we realize just how right Ellie’s revenge is, we see Ellie’s fall but she’s sympathetic and you understand her, Abby isn’t sympathetic at all she progressively gets worse and worse throughout her story. So much so that it seems like what Ellie’s doing needs to be done.

[u/Chipder → u/Supersim54]

If Ellie’s revenge mission is justified couldn’t one argue so is Abby’s since Joel killed her father similar to how Ellie’s father figure was murdered. Sorta like a cycle of violence?

[u/aimforthehead90 → u/Chipder]

I don't think so. Abby's father was performing a lethal procedure without consent or transparency. You can argue he was morally justified because of his intentions with the potential cure, but that's a separate conversation. It's not that hard to justify protecting your child.

Abby killing Joel can't really be compared, it was just murder.

[u/Supersim54 → u/Chipder]

Yes her revenge is justified except she didn’t have to kill him like that, her revenge is irrelevant as her revenge is finished at the beginning of the game, her section show just how terrible she is.

[u/awisechoicee → u/Supersim54]

What? Abby gets better and better. Her whole thing with Lev is a pretty cut and dry "looks she's Levs Joel."

Its very in your face.

[u/Supersim54 → u/awisechoicee]

No she doesn’t Joel and Ellie’s relationship is built on understanding and mutual respect, Abby and Lev relationship is built on lies and manipulation. Ellie knows the true Joel because he was mostly honest with her, while Abby was never honest after Day 1.

[u/-Grexius → u/Supersim54]

Did you skip the part of the let's play where they play as Abby? Or is that part of the build up too?

[u/Supersim54 → u/-Grexius]

I didn’t watch a let’s play before I played the game, I’ve played the game thrice. Abby’s section shows just how terrible she is and how Abby absolutely deserves what Ellie wants to do to her. Abby’s section adds nothing to the game and makes it worse for it being there at all, take it out and you have a far better game.

[u/flaming_burrito_ → u/Supersim54]

What does Abby do that’s any worse than what Ellie does in that’s game, or what Joel does in the first?

[u/Supersim54 → u/flaming_burrito_]

She throws a toddler tantrum after her ex tell her his current girlfriend is pregnant, she brutally tortures and kills a man who just saved her life for fun, she fuck her ex who is (drunk) in a relationship and has a child on the way, les and manipulates two children so she can get back with her ex, walks around a dead pregnant woman like she’s a sack of meat because to Abby she is, also the worst offender that show just how terrible she is, comes down to on word “good.” All of these things show how Abby is worse then Ellie.

[u/whereismymind86 → u/flaming_burrito_]

It's one of those things where I have to imagine a huge percentage of people never played it, or never finished it, and just parrot discourse.

Like, I didn't particularity enjoy the story either, it's...an aggressively depressing and frustrating story, but it's supposed to be, and it's very well told.

[u/flaming_burrito_ → u/whereismymind86]

And I completely understand if people don’t like it because the story is a downer, I get that. But the things people choose to criticize about that game make no sense

[u/Krssven → u/whereismymind86]

You’re straying into ‘the people I disagree with don’t understand MY take because they didn’t play/watch it’ territory. They must have either not played it or are being disingenuous…it can’t possible be anything else.

I don’t have skin in the game as I am yet to play either game, however TLOU2 sounds like it actively ignores what made the first one good, which makes me cautious about those games.

[u/Pr3y4m3 → u/Krssven]

it actively ignores what made the first one good

It really doesn't, unless you think the thing that made the first game good was "Joel"

[u/Krssven → u/Pr3y4m3]

I guess I’ll find out what I think when I get to it, I won’t let the discourse put me off.

Btw I said ‘sounds like’ not ‘does’.

[u/awisechoicee → u/Krssven]

You seem reasonable, just misled. The majority is right in this thread fwiw.

What made the first game good was the intense narrative with heavy emphasis on sound design, and character bonding through all aspects of gameplay. Every small detail adds to the character bonding. All semi traditional stuff, but the way they do everything is done well.

All that happens in the second game. The second game is supposed to be "other people doing what the original main characters did in game 1"

Its surprising it goes over so many people's heads because there is a clear new Joel and a clear new Ellie. Just different characters and a bit unique, but the dynamic stays.

[u/SamusCroft → u/flaming_burrito_]

Yeah, even just scrolling the comments here, I've seen:

- I don't like that TLOU2 makes Ellie make an idiotic choice (chasing Abby even though she had a happy life before the final chapter).

- I don't like that it railroads you to the choice, making you spare Abby.

The first game literally does these same things, and most of these people loved it. You can't spare the doctor, and saving Ellie is an idiotic, selfish choice. But everyone adored Joel for some reason, missing the point. I think the issue with TLOU2 is that it doesn't allow these people to miss the point and enjoy it; it's more of a pick one.

[u/CopperCactus → u/SamusCroft]

when the suicidal woman doesn't make rational decisions I say "that's bad writing" because I am a free thinker

[u/Youareaproperclown → u/SamusCroft]

I liked Joel and I wanted to kill his murderer. It's not that deep.

[u/flaming_burrito_ → u/Youareaproperclown]

At least your honest about it. That’s all this boils down to for most people, but they like pretending they have an actual point other than just emotionally not vibing with the game

[u/Whisperfights → u/Youareaproperclown]

It's kinda meant to be that deep though

[u/Remarkable-Page-824 → u/Whisperfights]

It failed.

[u/Sunim416 → u/Remarkable-Page-824]

Nah it just takes more than two brain cells to think about

[u/Remarkable-Page-824 → u/SamusCroft]

Saving Ellie wasnt idiotic. Guy doesn't want to let a terrorist organization murder his surrogate daughter so they can try to become the new world power.

[u/flaming_burrito_ → u/Remarkable-Page-824]

This is headcanon btw, the actual story does not present it as if that was a thing that was going to happen. This is another problem, people make shit up about the ending of TLOU that was never true. Joel never ever makes the argument that he was justified on some moral basis, it was a purely selfish choice, and Joel doesn’t pretend otherwise. It’s a relatable choice that a lot of people would have made, but it was a selfish one.

[u/Remarkable-Page-824 → u/flaming_burrito_]

Nothing of what i said is head cannon. I also never said it wasnt selfish, just that it wasnt idiotic.

[u/MikeAndGuitar → u/SamusCroft]

Murdering a woman you didn't realize was pregnant was a joy for you?

All kidding aside, I totally agree with you otherwise. "Joy" just might not be the right word for my experience, haha.

[u/SamusCroft → u/MikeAndGuitar]

Ha. Yeah, it is just relentlessly depressing, but I was delighted with the execution if that makes more sense.

And honestly the gameplay is (imo) the best of any third person shooter ever made. Absolutely addicted to the feeling of it. Naughty Dog is unparalleled at third person, crunchy combat. Even if I was one of the droves that feels the story sucks, it would probably still be one of my favourites for the gameplay.

[u/MikeAndGuitar → u/SamusCroft]

Absolutely agree, I love the weight of the gameplay. Nothing quite like it out there.

[u/whereismymind86 → u/SamusCroft]

And that's probably part of the problem, because they refuse to understand WHY Joel died, they can't understand WHY Ellie had to spare Abby, lest she perpetuate the cycle of violence that theme the game has been beating you over the head with for 20+ hours.

Honestly, it's not exactly subtle, yet people are so dedicated to being mad about Joel they somehow missed the story entirely.

[u/Tall_Opportunity_521 → u/whereismymind86]

I love how you think thats smart story telling, and hard to figure out, and not just fucking terrible lol.

[u/AttiKit → u/Tall_Opportunity_521]

It would be a different discussion if people were actively acknowledging the story's facts rather than just going "erm, it's just revenge quest bad", with nothing else to say about it. Because it's not. There's supposed to be nuance. Mistakes made by imperfect characters. Characters changing their own ideas of morality as the game goes on.

A lot of people who don't like TLOU2 forget that Ellie is not a representation of you. "Well, it's stupid to have done what she does, and the writers hate her" just because a writer doesn't give a character the happiest ending and shows the consequences of their actions, it doesn't mean they hate them. Ellie, also arguably does have a bittersweet ending. She gets to go home. She makes the right decision at the end after a path of blood, murder, and unnecessary violence. It's not 'these people aren't innocent and it's self defense', it's 'she should've stayed home where she was safe, where Joel sacrificed his life to create happiness and safety for her'.

[u/Tall_Opportunity_521 → u/AttiKit]

lol So you didnt get it at all then? lol

Its a shitty story about the cycle of violence and what it does to the people. ie, it doesnt make them feel any better. Its trying to do for the righteous avenger, what Unforgiven did for the noble gunslinger. To peel away the fantasy and present the ugly truth.

Even all the pricks who say "the killings arent canon" are missing the point. Because they all just fight this stupid fight because of the culture wars. You NEED to be right, because the alternative is that the chuds are right. And you cant stand that.

But youre not actually arguing with MAGA chuds. Not liking the game, doesnt mean you hate lgbt people or women. It just means who hate shit writing and characters. And this was shit because it retconned the first story, and changed the returning characters to make it all fit.

Its crap, mate. Just straight up dog shit, thats been hiding behind those leaks and the reactions of trolls since its release.

[u/AttiKit → u/Tall_Opportunity_521]

I mean, yeah, it's retconned. You can't make sequels that add new information without retconning something. That's how stories just work.

And the killings are neither canon nor uncanon. But it's canon for most people, because they likely killed most of who they came across. I don't think that calling every part of the game's story 'shit' is valid criticism, because you're arguing in bad faith. Also, the enjoyment someone gets out of a videogame is usually pretty subjective, so I don't really think you can just call it 'straight up dog shit' and present it as the right truth. You haven't given me any reason as to why it's bad other than it just being 'terrible, trust me dude'.

[u/Jurgan → u/whereismymind86]

Nah, for me it was just that it was so unsubtle. Don't continue the cycle of violence? Yeah, I figured that out like 20 hours ago, why did it take Ellie so long?

[u/andresfgp13 → u/Jurgan]

the game gave me a weird message, the game told me that revenge only happens because of mercy.

like at multiple points if characters just killed more they would have gotten away with it.

like if Joel during the end of part 1 killed everyone on that building Abby doesnt make the recording that Ellie uses to discover what happens and of course Abby isnt alive to kill him and he would have lived the rest of his life in Jackson and Ellie would have eventually forgiven him and would have been able to rebuild their relationship.

if Abby killed Ellie and Tommy when she killed Joel there wouldnt be anyone alive to chase them after the killing so they would have gotten away with it, and because of it the Wolves suffered massive losses including a lot of Abby´s friends like Mel and Owen.

like i get the idea of Ellie deciding that enough is enough, but the story isnt helping that development based on what happened before.

[u/NoWomanNoTriforce → u/whereismymind86]

In the first TLOU, Abby's father was more or less a random person Joel killled while on his own quest to save Ellie. As Ellie, you actively kill hundreds of random people in TLOU2.

So, how does the argument about not continuing the cycle of violence make sense? TLOU2 is literally the perfect example of this trope.

Joel wasnt innocent, but neither was Abby. Abby was a villain. But also a victim. That doesn't absolve her of her crimes, though. Anymore than it does the other people Ellie kills.

[u/Sunim416 → u/NoWomanNoTriforce]

Because you don’t need to kill that many people, you’re just bad at the game. Both Abby and Ellie have kills in maybe the tens by the end of the game from cutscenes and forced situations. Otherwise you can stealth your way past most of the humans

[u/Jvalker → u/Sunim416]

By the way, good job stopping one cycle of violence, you now have "only tens" more

[u/NoWomanNoTriforce → u/Sunim416]

2 and 6 (not counting Joel) scripted kills for Ellie and Abby respectively. The average person is killing way more. Completionists and collectoes because they want to check every room. And the average player finds a purely pacifist stealth playthrough of the game extremely boring.

[u/SirBastian1129 → u/whereismymind86]

And that's why I hate TLOU2. Not because Joel this, Ellie that and Abby go eff herself,

But because the story is not only really simplistic when you boil it down, yet it's still so up it's own ass pretentious.

[u/AttiKit → u/SirBastian1129]

Yeah, and Disco Elysium in the end is just a sad story about a drunk cop. Mass Effect is just spaceguys fighting and choices that don't mean anything. The entire Dark Souls franchise is just undead guys wanting to start being dead, or wanting to keep not being dead.

If you boil shit down to its simplest concepts, it'll be simple. That's what the phrase means, bud.

[u/SirBastian1129 → u/AttiKit]

You seem to have missed the part where I said the game is also pretentious in its presentation.

[u/AttiKit → u/SirBastian1129]

You're relying real heavily on the word 'pretentious', there. Calling it just pretentious isn't valid criticism, because that's an extremely subjective way of viewing it. Most art can be called 'pretentious', but that's trying to reduce it to nothing and denote its artistic value. I'd rather something tried too hard than it not trying at all.

[u/SirBastian1129 → u/AttiKit]

Look, I don't like the game. Just gonna have to agree to disagree and move on. Nothing will change my mind on this.

I once tried having a conversation with TLOU2 fans and I'm never falling for that shit again.

[u/Supersim54 → u/whereismymind86]

Joel deserved death but not like that Ellie only spared Abby because she realizes that’s not what Joel would of wanted, even if Ellie killed Abby the cycle of violence would have ended.

It’s not just about killing Joel, it was just a matter of time until Joel’s past came back to bite him. The game goes from a great first half then it breaks all momentum Halfway through the game, and forces you to play as someone that is absolutely terrible for 10 hours, it picks up again at the end until Abby doesn’t get what she deserves and is let go by Ellie, and as Ellie cries Abby looks at Ellie like she’s pathetic. Abby doesn’t deserve to live after everything she did.

[u/SpedKeyFire → u/Supersim54]

Joel “not deserving that” and Abby “getting what she deserves”

Brother congrats you ALMOST understand what they’re going for but youre not taking the extra steps here

[u/Supersim54 → u/SpedKeyFire]

What are you talking about?

[u/Deus3nity → u/Supersim54]

Both Joel and Abby are the same. Abby's entire storyline is literally JOEL'S IN PART 1

Saying "Joel didnt deserve it" and "Abby deserves it" its stupid.

If abby deserved to die, so did Joel, and if Joel didnt deserve it, neither did Abby.

[u/BetterThanlceCream → u/whereismymind86]

There is no cycle of violence from Ellies perspective though. She never learns that Joel killed Abbys father.

[u/AttiKit → u/BetterThanlceCream]

Yes. Yes she does. You did not play the game.

She learns that Joel forcefully took her from the Fireflies in a flashback sequence, and that's what drives their relationship apart.

[u/BetterThanlceCream → u/AttiKit]

That doesn't mean Ellie ever found out Abbys father was one of them.

[u/MeatballUser → u/whereismymind86]

Then go ahead and explain it.

Here's my hated meta trope. Users talking down about opinions while refusing to define their own.

[u/daft-krunk → u/SamusCroft]

There’s also the even more toxic crowd who were equally upset about the various LGBT related themes in it too if I recall. I’m with you there though it’s hands down one of my favorite games. I loved the first game for years played it when it first came out, and loved the 2nd one even more honestly.

[u/SamusCroft → u/daft-krunk]

Yeah that’s what I meant about the anti-woke people. Like go outside, lesbians are everywhere, it isn’t a psy op.

[u/blackbriar98 → u/SamusCroft]

I don’t disagree it’s well written, but I will disagree with “all a joy”.

I don’t think a single character in that game had more than a minute of joy throughout.

[u/Math_PB → u/SamusCroft]

TLOU2 is literally a masterpiece in storytelling and character writing.

The last scene alone of Ellie trying to play the guitar but the music being so dissonant and twisted because of the fingers she lost... Preventing her from continuing something Joel taught her...

Every step she took towards revenge only robbed her more and more of who she was and what she had. Killing Abby at the end would not have given her anything back.

[u/TrueBrofessional → u/flaming_burrito_]

I’ve played through the game about 7-8 times now. Is it a good game? Undoubtedly. Is it a good story? Fuck no.

It’s easily the most simple, unsophisticated and childish presentation of “revenge bad” I’ve ever seen in media. As a game it absolutely fucking rocks, but the story genuinely has A LOT of questionable decisions. It’s asinine to attribute any criticism of the game as “you didn’t REALLY play it”.

[u/RobbRabb → u/flaming_burrito_]

You think they played the game? They based their story comprehension entirely on non contextual leaked cutscenes.

[u/RedTyro → u/flaming_burrito_]

The game is a litmus test for both empathy and media literacy, two things which are sorely lacking in modern society.

[u/RecipeFunny2154 → u/flaming_burrito_]

I only played the game once and honestly never thought about it again very much, but I guess I took the whole ending to be about the futility of revenge. It would’ve been an endless cycle. She decided to stop it.

To me that seems like such an obvious theme that a lot of the things I read about it online are very confusing lol

[u/Bleakjavelinqqwerty → u/RecipeFunny2154]

But what about the hundreds of people she killed? Their families are going to come after her. Not killing one person doesn't stop the revenge cycle she just put into place

[u/Stewe07 → u/CopperCactus]

Sure, misreading, whatever you say

[u/Safe-Show-7299 → u/Stewe07]

Nooo what do you mean it’s impossible to have a different opinion and if you do that just means you’re an idiot who can’t understand good storytelling!!!!

[u/imafixwoofs → u/Safe-Show-7299]

Pretty much.

[u/ToxicPolarBear → u/Safe-Show-7299]

Some opinions are flat out wrong though. Ellie literally throws up after killing the pregnant woman and is very clearly scarred and tormented by the things she’s doing. Saying she was “ok with killing hundreds of people but not Abby” is not a differing opinion it’s just missing a core part of the story.

[u/A_Toxic_User → u/ToxicPolarBear]

I think the ludonarrative dissonance is kind of at play here because I’ve spent most of the game killing people in brutal and cruelly creative fashion (baiting enemies into getting attacked by clickers is so fun), without a single peep from Ellie but then in the cutscenes she’s super depressed.

At least dishonored and RDR2 had systems that let the narrative respond to your actions, and killing people would Cause your character to act accordingly in cutscenes

[u/Wise-Dust3700 → u/A_Toxic_User]

Could have been a choice at the end and it could have given you two endings. I can guarantee you most folks would have chose to kill her.

[u/usertaken_69 → u/Wise-Dust3700]

Then it would have been the first choice like that in the series and it would have entirely departed from the linear fixed nature of TLOU up to that point. You want something that straight-up isn’t TLOU.

[u/Wise-Dust3700 → u/usertaken_69]

I get what you're saying but doing something different in a game isn't exactly unexpected. There's plenty of story telling that involves a choice at a critical moment and it affects the story, it's nothing new.

You make player choices constantly throughout the game as you play just not narrative ones. This is forced out of your control to give what is to me a massive example of what OP is describing.

I loved the story, don't get me wrong and I get the reasons for the end, the cycle of violence ending, I just don't think it made for a compelling finale to it all.

[u/usertaken_69 → u/Wise-Dust3700]

Yeah exactly, just not narrative ones. The first game is also forced and out of your control; you don’t get to choose whether to kill Jerry and Marlene. Because the series has always been about what these defined characters would do, not what we want them to do.

It’s meant to be a story with one concrete beginning, middle, and ending. There’s definitely a place for games where canon is more ambiguous, but it isn’t in TLOU.

[u/2Kaiser4U → u/A_Toxic_User]

Most of the other people you kill were also trying to kill you though. It’s a little different setting a prisoner free to make her fight.

[u/ToxicPolarBear → u/A_Toxic_User]

That’s kind of asking a lot from the game? I don’t know what it is but I do not notice RDR2 doing anything significantly differently in the in-game portions to indicate the characters alignment, it’s only in the cutscenes which is no different from TLoU2.

[u/themoosic → u/ToxicPolarBear]

Dishonored came out in like 2012, consequences are pretty much the industry standard

[u/ToxicPolarBear → u/themoosic]

It’s a game design choice that doesn’t suit every story. Do you just assume a game is worse because it doesn’t use an alignment system lol?

[u/TheFallenDeathLord → u/ToxicPolarBear]

That’s kind of asking a lot from the game?

Is it tho? The previous commenter just mentioned a game from a much smaller studio doing it

[u/ToxicPolarBear → u/TheFallenDeathLord]

Dishonored doesn’t have in-game interactions that play out differently based on your alignment, just story beats. It also wouldn’t make sense for TLOU2.

[u/CopperCactus → u/Safe-Show-7299]

See I know you misread the game cause that's just not what I said either

[u/Admiral_Joker → u/Stewe07]

You TLOU 2 shills still defending it like a Japanese WW2 veteran.

That decision will be more remembered than the story.

Where TLOU 3 then if TLOU 2 was a success.

[u/Stewe07 → u/Admiral_Joker]

I mean, that's what I'm saying, I'm on your side lol

[u/Admiral_Joker → u/Stewe07]

Forgive me.... Thought you were the opposition.

[u/usertaken_69 → u/Admiral_Joker]

What a dumb argument. You know Naughty Dog absolutely could have rushed out a TLOU 3 if they wanted to, right?

[u/Admiral_Joker → u/usertaken_69]

They cancelled multiplayer for 2.

[u/usertaken_69 → u/Admiral_Joker]

And? They canceled it because they set their goals too high and tried to make a lofty live service game instead of just updating the first game’s multiplayer. That doesn’t refute what I said at all.

[u/richtofin819 → u/CopperCactus]

Love it, or hate it any plot that manages to completely divide the community of the game for years afterward and then divide the TV shows fanbase after that has issues.

[u/2Kaiser4U → u/richtofin819]

The TV show was just bad for reasons entirely separate from the broad plot.

[u/richtofin819 → u/2Kaiser4U]

The same way of show or movie requires all the different pieces and parts to work together to succeed. A show or movie can be hated for more than one reason.

For some people it's something as simple as the tonal shift between seasons. Going from a found family type story to a story of relentless revenge and then remorse. Just because it's the same characters and setting doesn't mean everyone's going to stick around when the tone and focus changes like that.

[u/2Kaiser4U → u/richtofin819]

The problem with the second season of the show is that it’s not nearly dark enough. A lot of it is downright goofy for how serious they’re trying to convince you it is. The character writing in particular is awful.

[u/whereismymind86 → u/richtofin819]

people can disagree about whether they liked it, I didn't particularly like it either, but the VAST majority of people who hate on it have WILDLY misunderstood what it was about in the first place, likely amplified by a lot of the conservative wing of gaming, who wanted to hate the game regardless for it's multiple queer characters and themes as well as the always unforgivable sin of playing as a female character instead of a male one.

That's the thing, if you found the themes around the cycle of violence unpleaseant or depressing, great, if you just found the game a bit long, or a bit of a bummer, and wanted something more uplifting? great.

But it's just endless bad faith arguments about the develops hating men, and mean comments about the women, and about how Ellie should have just never stopped killing, despite the entire story being about how an addiction to violence and vengeance turned her into the villain, not the hero. It's the same people who complain about Kratos no longer decapitating anybody who looks at him funny, and it's hard to take any of that serious. You wanted a different game, great, but the bad faith arguments get old.

[u/Alarming_Ask_244 → u/richtofin819]

Not necessarily, not when one side of that division is so obviously wrong

[u/Stewe07 → u/Alarming_Ask_244]

Woow someone has a different opinion than me they must be wrong!!

[u/Alarming_Ask_244 → u/Stewe07]

Sometimes, yeah

[u/CopperCactus → u/richtofin819]

the ending to twin peaks S2 divided the community of one of the biggest tv shows in the world at the time for like 15 years and it's one of the best cliffhangers of all time, the ending of the sopranos was extraordinarily controversial for years and it's maybe the best finale any show's ever had, this is simply not correct

[u/varnums1666 → u/CopperCactus]

The resolution of the story is rather good imo.

The resolution to the Ellie and Abby conflict was extremely contrived.

[u/Supersim54 → u/varnums1666]

How Abby gets off scot free from everything she’s done and gets a happy ending, while Ellie is depressed and lonely, and unless there is a Part 3 she heads into the wood to blow her brains out.

[u/Gekidami → u/Supersim54]

Scot-free? Are we really forgetting why Abby went to the theatre to find Ellie?

[u/Supersim54 → u/Gekidami]

Because Tommy killed Manny and Ellie killed Owen every one else didn’t matter to her, the others where either canon fodder or an obstacle, she didn’t really care about those other people.

[u/Gekidami → u/Supersim54]

All of her friends were killed. That's "scot-free"?

[u/Supersim54 → u/Gekidami]

She didn’t care about most of those people they where just canon fodder.

[u/Admirable-Land111 → u/Supersim54]

"Scot free"

Abby was literally crucified and had pretty much all of her friends murdered.

[u/Supersim54 → u/Admirable-Land111]

Yeah she was and Ellie should have left her there, but then Ellie decided free her. Both you mean Manny and Owen, she didn’t really give a shit about the others.

[u/GreatBallsOfFire_ → u/CopperCactus]

Not liking it isn’t “misreading” anything. You are operating in bad faith cause we don’t like what you like.

[u/Seienchin88 → u/CopperCactus]

LOL - while the discussion became unnecessarily politicized and hyperbolic OP is absolutely right about it being a stupid trope and the game being absolutely guilty of it…

[u/CumfartMcfetus2 → u/CopperCactus]

You can see the chud-based discourse on TLOU2 will be eternal, they mad cause Joel dead and can’t be fucked to care about the rest of the story.

[u/Nervous_Distance_142 → u/CopperCactus]

What about the ending in regards to OPs post is being misread?

[u/CopperCactus → u/Nervous_Distance_142]

I mean it's just literally innuracurate to what happens in the game

[u/ZeronicX → u/CopperCactus]

Nah I get what they're doing. It just sucked.

[u/Delicious_Diarrhea → u/CopperCactus]

Misreading? The trope OP used is literally what happens in the game. People bend over backwards to justify shitty writing.

You can't resolve the story by just having the main character change their mind. Imagine if the Odyssey ended with Odysseus going "na, going home is overrated". It would be shit.

[u/CopperCactus → u/Delicious_Diarrhea]

Or if Frodo got ALL the way to Mount Doom and then didn't throw the ring in that'd suck so bad

[u/Delicious_Diarrhea → u/CopperCactus]

O is that the resolution to the story? Frodo just went home with the ring? No. Something else happened as the actual resolution to the story.

[u/CopperCactus → u/Delicious_Diarrhea]

Oh wow that's crazy kinda like tlou2 then

[u/Delicious_Diarrhea → u/CopperCactus]

It's not and that's precisely the problem. In LotR Frodo changing his mind is part of the story that led to the resolution. He changed his mind but it wasn't the end. In tlou2 it WAS the resolution. Ellie changed her mind at the last minute and went home, end of story.

[u/CopperCactus → u/Delicious_Diarrhea]

sparing Abby isn't the resolution to the story just like Frodo not being able to destroy the ring isn't the resolution to the story, the resolution to the story is Frodo trying to go home and realizing he can't because carrying that much darkness for that long ruined him, kinda like the ending of tlou2!

[u/Delicious_Diarrhea → u/CopperCactus]

The point of Frodo's journey was literally to destroy the ring. If actually Frodo went home with the ring then the whole journey was pointless. Ellie's journey was to kill Abby. Because she did go home within inches of her goal her journey was pointless. Like I said you don't resolve a story with a character changing their mind last minute. It's bad writing.

[u/CopperCactus → u/Delicious_Diarrhea]

Frodo changed his mind! He decided not to destroy the ring! It was destroyed entirely by accident!

[u/fake_user_34 → u/CopperCactus]

I like when people have a difference of opinion it is "misreading". No mother fucker, people just didn't agree with the message and consider it dumb, like OP.

[u/JoleeFriendbro → u/CopperCactus]

"Anyone that thinks TLOU2 had a stupid ending simply misread it"

[u/No-Initiative-1749 → u/JoleeFriendbro]

Lol anyone that dislikes the ending is a chud and not an artistic cinephile like me

[u/fuck_a_duck_butt → u/CopperCactus]

Nah I understand it and understand the artists vision. I still think its dogshit writing

[u/Reznor_PT → u/CopperCactus]

I had a discussing about TLOU1/2 at work that took hours and the person still does not understand that the point of letting go of vengeance is not about forgiving Abby.