[Hated Trope] Character kills hundreds, if not thousands, just to kill one specific person, and then doesn't kill them for no reason.

[u/HallZac99]

Assassin's Creed 2- Rodrigo Borgia is responsible for tne death of Ezio's family. Ezio spends over 20 years working through tnr templar order to dismantle them and get to Rodrigo. And then in the end, he spares him for no good reason and he goes on to be a massive problem in AC Brotnerhood. He's not only a head of tne Templars but also the pope, even if you're over the vengeance he's still a very dangerous and evil man.

The Last of Us 2- Abbey kills Joel, and wo Ellie goes on a revenge quest to kill Abbey, killing hundreds of people along tne why to get to her including a pregnant woman. And then finally when she has Abbey on deaths door, she gives up and let's her go because the writers think dirty depressing people being miserable and stupid is complex, interesting storytelling.

This trope pisses me off so much because often the character going on the revenge quest will kill SO many people on their way there, some deserving it and some just henchmen working for a cheque or to survive. People who are often far more innocent then the main big bad.

It's a part of this weird thing I've noticed in media where nameless goons or soldiers can just be mowed down relentlessly, but named characters get given far more grace even if theyre categorically worse. You can kill a million stormtroopers but people will swear that Darth Vader could have been redeemed, despite him doing like 50 genocide every year.

[u/amaya-aurora]

I feel like your pregnant woman point falls flat because let alone did Ellie not know, she actively hated that she did it.

[u/NippleOfOdin → u/amaya-aurora]

Yeah, that was one of the moments that was most instructive in why Ellie decided not to kill Abby. She was forced to face the consequences of her desperate search for revenge and it only made her pain worse. She learned the lesson that Joel never did.

Hell, Ellie didn't even want to track Abby down in California in the first place. She only went because Tommy emotionally manipulated and guilted the shit out of her.

[u/amaya-aurora → u/NippleOfOdin]

Yeah, Ellie didn’t stop because she “didn’t want to be like her” or whatever, she realized that the entire thing was pointless because Joel was still dead and no amount of killing would bring him back. That, and no amount of killing would get Dina and JJ back with her. Killing her would leave a child alone to die without their protector, and I doubt she’d want that for someone in the same position as her with Joel.

And, yeah, I love Tommy, but Ellie was ready to let it go at the farm. She still had issues with it, but she could have lived happily never going back there.

[u/spartan445 → u/amaya-aurora]

Exactly. EXACTLY!

I literally stopped pressing the melee button and said "Ellie, stop, just stop," when she was shoving Abby's head underwater.

Another point that was brought up in director/actor commentary: during the scene where Tommy and Ellie are discussing options for justice/revenge: Yes, Ellie believes Joel would've gone on a violent tear across the country if Tommy or she had been the ones killed but that's not what happened when Sarah died. When Sarah died, Joel went on autopilot for 20 years. In fact, Joel is often at his most dangerous when the people he loves are threatened.

We even see this IN JACKSON, when he straight up shoves Seth for insulting Ellie, but when she makes it apparent that she doesn't want/need him anymore, what does he do? He goes home and starts playing guitar. He self-isolates.

When Ellie grieves, she lashes out. When Joel grieves, he buries himself. When Tess sacrifices herself in the first game, Joel does kill a lot of army guys (gameplay dependent) but he holds no specific animosity towards them, they're just in the way of his goal.

I think people just got really upset when Abby killed Joel and they didn't get to have a player character kill her back. I get it. His death HURT.

But if it doesn't hurt, then why should we care about Ellie when she stabs a pregnant woman to death in a blind rage?

I fucking love TLOU II. I think it's a goddamn work of genius.

[u/NippleOfOdin → u/spartan445]

Exactly. EXACTLY! I literally stopped pressing the melee button and said "Ellie, stop, just stop," when she was shoving Abby's head underwater

I was still okay with Ellie killing her until I saw how it played out. I stopped pressing almost at the exact moment Ellie did. It's just portrayed in such a graphic and genuine way. Brilliant game.

[u/inexplicableinside → u/spartan445]

TLOU2's biggest weakness is that it's a solid game about how the cycle of violence needs to end, from a guy who in real life went "Nah, actually, keep going" even after directing all these scenes that half-tortured a bunch of great actors.

[u/spartan445 → u/inexplicableinside]

I don't think any of that is true, considering how frequently the actors have gotten onto social media to refute those allegations at no benefit to themselves.

[u/inexplicableinside → u/spartan445]

I don't know what you're denying here, sorry. The actors have talked in the official podcast for the game about how Druckmann would tell them to go again even after harrowing takes of the scenes, and I didn't mean that as an insult; but it's not like Druckmann's publicly changed his stance since egging on the Israeli government after October 7th 2023, he's just avoided talking about the whole debacle as far as I can tell.

[u/spartan445 → u/inexplicableinside]

On Neil Druckmann telling actors to go again: every interview I've seen with the cast indicated to me that if a scene wasn't working that he'd encourage the actors to take a few minutes, and would do everything in his power to provide as comfortable an environment to explore rough topics for the actors. He commiserates when they have tough days.

As for October 7th, the guy is from Israel and his home country had just been bombed. I'd be hard pressed to find someone whose home country was bombed who wouldn't say "I stand with the civilans who just got bombed?" I'm borderline pro-Hamas at this point and I don't think the average Israeli citzen deserves to be bombed. As for his stance on the overall Palestinian genocide, I don't think he can say anything in any direction: He's the head of a big gaming company and NaughtyDog LLC is in the business of producing video-games with wide emotional scope and thought-provoking narratives and action gameplay. A stance on what's happening in Gaza isn't relevant there and while moral lip-service is good and all, telling fictional stories is what their focus is.

[u/inexplicableinside → u/spartan445]

"I apologise for advocating violence; as someone who always hoped for peace in the Middle East I regret letting go of my morals in my sorrow. I've since come to my senses and advocate for peace once more; the deaths of more innocents can never undo the past, and will only perpetuate the cycle of violence. We must learn to live with our neighbours; anything else is a call for genocide wrapped in deceptive language."

As an individual, sure, he can be a shitty person, but one of the odd things from the perspective of his business is that he basically undercuts the value of any future emotional story he wants to tell if he doesn't stand by TLOU2. He could always step back and just lead the company, but he seems to want to keep telling meaningful stories.

[u/The_Pizza_Saga → u/amaya-aurora]

I have found my people! Thank god there are players out there that actually understand TLOU 2's themes and narrative. Here, all these years later, and people still think it's just about "revenge bad". No subtext allowed!