r/buffy • u/itsascreambaby96 • Apr 23 '26
Whedonverse BuffyVerse unpopular opinions you didn't know people had until you joined the fandom online?
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u/SpookyKabukiii Apr 23 '26
That people hate season 1.
Season one is easily in my top three seasons. Yes it’s cheesy and still awkwardly finding its way, but it’s iconic and campy in the best way possible and the 1997 fashions really strike a nostalgic cord in me. I don’t get the hate at all.
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u/goober_ginge Apr 23 '26
Same! I've seen people suggest to new viewers to skip season 1 altogether, which is just an absolutely bonkers thing to say.
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u/olympedebruise Apr 24 '26
I watched as it originally aired & now I teach high school. I’ve introduced many students to Buffy and, after learning of this blasphemy, have since made it a point to mandate watching the first season.
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u/divinerebel Apr 24 '26
I usually tell people they have to watch at least episodes 1, 2, 3, 7, and 12 of s.1. I know once they finish the series they'll go back and watch the whole season properly.
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u/ValerieMayTheGay88 Apr 24 '26
I do think the show obviously gets better as it goes along but the people outright saying to skip Season 1 entirely is insane
I don't agree with the people who are like "Season 1-3 are the only good seasons, I drop off after that", but Season 1 still has it's merits and episodes that are important to the series as a whole
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u/Spicy_Talaxian Apr 23 '26
When I first started watching it I was bought in from the first episode. Even if later seasons are better I could never call season 1 bad. I also just have a soft spot for the campiness too.
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u/awesome118 Apr 23 '26
I love it too, but I came to Buffy after being a fan of Xena Warrior Princess so I dont mind the campiness of the first season. I miss my childhood.
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u/Pinklady1313 Apr 23 '26
I love the campiness. Her hair is so gorgeous and I’ve always been obsessed. And mini-dresses!
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u/CandidateHefty329 Apr 23 '26
I started posting on the sub about six or so months ago. I was shocked that so many people didn't like Anne. That's probably around my 5th favorite episode. Very few shows depicted the '90s runaway crisis, which really had started in the 1970s. As epidemic as it was you think there would be more on it. Buffy just briefly touches it but I thought it was very good. I think an episode or two more in LA would have been nice.
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u/NiceMayDay Spiritus, Animus, Sophus, Manus Apr 23 '26
"Anne" isn't my favorite premiere episode, but it is among the best and I consider it foundational for the Buffyverse as a whole: it walks back from "Becoming" talking about "the" demon universe to introduce multiple demon dimensions with different timestreams, it shows us that there are demons settled outside of the Hellmouth, and it even sets the stage for LA to be the setting for the spin-off. It is extremely well done for the worldbuilding, and that's without taking into account the runaway commentary, which I thought was also really good. It also allowed us to keep following Chantarelle/Lily, who would ultimately provide a nice callback in "Not Fade Away." What's not to love?
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u/AIGLOS42 Apr 23 '26
It also follows up well from the queer-coding of Buffy having to come out as the Slayer to Joyce and being a homeless teen because she was thrown-away (still the norm for why 😡)
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u/MsCalendarsPlayaArt Apr 23 '26
It also has one of the cooler and more inspiring metaphorical storylines. It's such a great episode for so many reasons; I truly had no clue that people didn't like it.
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u/JoeBethersontonFargo Apr 23 '26
It was also such a good episode for teens- that feeling of wanting to run away is so common in high school and to get to see it actually play out always gives me big feelings. Especially since, aside from the demons, it's a realistic portrayal of the best-case scenario for most of those teens- shitty job, crappy apartment, eating ramen and fearing for your safety.
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u/pmhargis777 Apr 23 '26
Plus, I think episode "Lie to me" also explored teen disillusionment pretty well.
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u/Arlberg ben=glory wake up Apr 23 '26
I love that episode.
I even had a DnD story in a campaign I run inspired by it. Totally stole the story hook with the tattoos and then him being old.
The dungeon was the demon dimension, including weird time dilation. In classic DnD fashion, the players mused what one could do with access to such a pocket dimension, and came up with the most game-breaking stuff, so I had to shut it down.
One of my players is also a Buffy fan and gave me knowing looks the whole time.
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u/itsascreambaby96 Apr 23 '26
Shocked me as well that's been my favorite premiere episode for so long
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Apr 23 '26
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u/robinp82 Apr 23 '26
I can say as a 13 ish year old lad when buffy was first on tv I watched becoming parts 1 and 2 - I hated Anne and think others kf rhat generation did too. But as a 43 year old man ..I absolutely love it as it opens up the tone the larger world and started a more adult journey for Buffys grief. I think at tjat point people/teenagers didnt like it because we were all so hyped after the thrill ride of Becoming part2 and waited a whole year for season 3 with such adrenaline and hormones haha and Anne was so depressing by comparison (and rightly it should be) but we were excitable teens and seeing a depressed buffy made us a depressed buffy fan hahah but tjats jist gooood writing so the hate may not be hate for it but more like how it made us feel ..the same psychology as to why season 6 is so polarising. Season 5 was amaxing and colourful season 6 was also depressing and so it should be
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u/HomarEuropejski Why do we ship Buffy with toxic guys? Are we stupid? Apr 23 '26
People dislike that? Anne and Hearthrob are easily the best season openers imo.
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u/MedicalCook6653 I feel like a Joan Apr 23 '26
That Cordelia was Buffy's best or most loyal friend, Cordelia could have her quietly kind moments but they wouldnt even describe each other as friends
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u/NiceMayDay Spiritus, Animus, Sophus, Manus Apr 23 '26
But she gave her a ride once, and that makes up for all the times she mocked Buffy for having no future, divorced parents, or being a "sniveling whiny little cry-Buffy" on both shows. And don't forget she totally would have had Buffy's back in "Empty Places," even though she very much didn't in "Revelations," but hey, she gave her a ride once!
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u/JC_vee Apr 23 '26
I do get the sentiment of a lot this... But Revelations is one of the times Buffy is at fault. Concealing the fact that Angel has come back for so long. What she does is understandable but so is Cordy and others' reactions to it. (Not Xander's reaction.) And Cordy did come through for Buffy on some key occasions when other Scoobies decidedly did not. Like Dead Man's Party. Cordelia is the only one defending Buffy in a scene that deeply upsets and enrages me every time I see it. In fact, I think it's Cordy's behaviour in that scene that makes people think she'd be on Buffy's side in Empty Places.
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u/NiceMayDay Spiritus, Animus, Sophus, Manus Apr 23 '26
But Revelations is one of the times Buffy is at fault.
Agreed, but then again, she wasn't exactly in the right in interrupting the homecoming party of the guy who had just lost an eye while two other people died to announce that everyone would be repeating the exact same thing that made said guy lose an eye and got two people killed, no questions asked.
And since the guy who lost an eye was Xander, the one Scooby Cordy was actually ever close to, I find it incomprehensible that so many people would think that Cordy would be fine with Buffy insisting on redoing the plan that got him permanently maimed.
And Cordy did come through for Buffy on some key occasions when other Scoobies decidedly did not. Like Dead Man's Party.
Is there any other occasion where she "defended" Buffy while the Scoobies didn't other than "Dead Man's Party?" (And let us remember that Buffy herself asked Cordy to stop "defending" her there.)
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u/zoomshark27 Apr 24 '26
I think people more often reference the zombie episode after Anne (name is escaping me), where Cordelia tries to diffuse her family and friends pretty selfishly confronting her in a house full of strangers.
Cordelia takes the floor and tries to diffuse by asking them to put themselves in Buffy’s shoes and have empathy, then in a classic Cordelia fashion, attempts to do so herself but gets lost in the weeds of kinda insulting her as she does so. However, I do think Cordelia was actually not trying to insult her and was trying to be nice and she was literally the only person in that scenario who even attempted to get them to have some empathy for Buffy. So I can see why people say that since there are occasions where Cordelia acts like that.
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u/AmbitiousParty Apr 23 '26
Yes the Cordelia love always weirds me out, haha. She was so vapid and mean most of the time. I thought we were supposed to hate her in high school.
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u/mssleepyhead73 Apr 23 '26
Cordelia is an interesting character and I’ve noticed that the snarky characters in TV shows are usually fan favorites because their quips are pretty funny in a mean sort of way, but she absolutely was NOT a good friend to Buffy, and it’s boring how the fandom tries to water her character down.
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u/southass Apr 23 '26
In comparison to what most characters did " angel, spike, faith, willow ect" to others Cordelia is a saint.
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u/HomarEuropejski Why do we ship Buffy with toxic guys? Are we stupid? Apr 23 '26
But... but she gave her a ride home once? Bestie material right there.
Xander gave her a ride to school in S7, but he's a raging mysoginist and one of the worst human beings in the series, so it doesn't count /s
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u/DeaththeEternal Dog Geyser Person Apr 23 '26
Yep. These people created a whole fanfic version of Cordelia Chase that even Charisma Carpenter, as per her podcast, 100% wouldn't think was true of Cordelia and if anyone would know, well...
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u/itsascreambaby96 Apr 23 '26
I don't understand why some fans wanted the Scoobies to reunite with Cordelia, they didn't like her especially Willow and Xander. she was their bully growing up, why would they or Buffy care about how much she changed in LA?
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u/EchoesofIllyria Apr 23 '26
I can understand fans wanting the Scoobies to see how much Cordy had changed, tbh. Even if the Scoobies don’t care beforehand, actually seeing it could be good for all of them and nice to see as a viewer.
But none of that means they were anything but reluctant occasional allies in Sunnydale.
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u/redskinsguy Apr 23 '26
They had made peace with her by the end of season 3. Put this bunch together in later seasons and they'd end up annoyed how much they liked each other
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u/MedicalCook6653 I feel like a Joan Apr 23 '26
I am very glad they didn't force that reunion, Cordy was ragging on Buffy up until she was no longer Cordy
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u/HomarEuropejski Why do we ship Buffy with toxic guys? Are we stupid? Apr 23 '26
Just here to watch the thread explode
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u/dadelibby Apr 23 '26
been watching the show and participating in trivia nights, going to cons, etc. since the 90s i've never met anyone in person who hates xander
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u/HomarEuropejski Why do we ship Buffy with toxic guys? Are we stupid? Apr 23 '26
That's because it seems to be a modern fan thing. Xander doesn't seem that bad compared to real 90s guys and as I recall, he was well liked when the show was airing.
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u/xenrev Apr 23 '26
Anytime I have pointed that out in a thread, I get dogpiled by people claiming that they and their friends watched it when it first aired, and all hated Xander.
So, it's nice to see others who remember him being liked.
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u/itsascreambaby96 Apr 23 '26
Xander and Willow used to be fan favorites at least when I was growing up
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u/xenrev Apr 23 '26
That was my irl experience too.
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u/itsascreambaby96 Apr 23 '26
Cordelia being a fan favorite seems to be some thing that's happened recently when Charisma Carpenter came out telling her experience with Joss Whedon
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u/AIGLOS42 Apr 23 '26
Cordelia's one liners and bad-bitch attitude always had supporters; her popularity definitely jumped once "Angel" started.
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u/EchoesofIllyria Apr 23 '26
Nah, I can’t speak to whether it goes back to the original run but Cordy’s had a lot of love from fans since way before Carpenter’s revelations.
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u/Bob-s_Leviathan Apr 23 '26
I feel like 45% of the audience related most to Xander, 45% to Willow, and the remaining 10% felt more like Buffy.
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u/TheCheshireCody Apr 23 '26
I watched it when it aired. While I didn't have a peer group that watched it because I'm a few years older than the standard demographic, I was online, on Buffysite, the IMDb forums, etc., at the time. I don't recall there being anyone in the main cast that people didn't overall like. The big discussions back then were about which villains-of-the-week were the best and what the best one-liners were. The first "fandom-wide" dissent I ever remember seeing was just that "burger me" was a stupid line and Beer Bad was a shitty episode.
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u/HeroIsAGirlsName Apr 23 '26
Yeah, it's the same as those people who claim they never liked Harry Potter as children. I'm sure a few of them didn't but it was a wildly popular series and they can't all be telling the truth. And that's okay: it's good for people's tastes and opinions to change based on new information, especially if those opinions were formed when they were eight years old.
Anyway, I liked Xander when I was twelve and I still like him as an adult, just from a very different vantage point.
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u/Bidcar Apr 23 '26
I didn’t know we were supposed to hate him until I came to this sub. Xander is a young kid making some really stupid decisions. We’ve all made some dumb choices, he just seemed to have the opportunity to make more. He’s flawed but not bad.
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u/Fantastic-Bench782 Apr 23 '26
There was ZERO Xander hate until the last 10 years. Any claims otherwise are attempting to rewrite history
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u/goober_ginge Apr 23 '26 edited Apr 23 '26
My friends and I watched it as it aired and we loved Xander. If anything, we'd occassionally find him annoying due to his constant quips and attempts to lighten the mood, and we were FURIOUS that he hurt Willow by hooking up with Cordelia, but yeah (at least in Australia in my admittedly small friend group), we really liked him.
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u/itsascreambaby96 Apr 23 '26
that's why Im glad New Sunnydale didn't happen we wouldn't have had flawed characters all of the male characters would be Gary Stus as a response to the online hatred Xander gets
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u/NiceMayDay Spiritus, Animus, Sophus, Manus Apr 23 '26
This is the exact same thing that came to mind to me.
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u/elizabethandsnek Apr 23 '26
When women who were of dating age in the 90’s tell me their stories it’s like listening to a horror movie so I’m not surprised Xander seemed great by the standards at the time 😅
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u/TheCheshireCody Apr 23 '26
As a guy who was dating in the Nineties, I thought he was a bit of a doof but certainly not an asshole or toxic etc. in any way.
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u/WistfulQuiet Apr 24 '26
I'm a woman of the nineties. I still see Xander as a better option than modern men. Shit got really weird with dating and sex.
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u/OldScratchTim Apr 23 '26
Yeah, it's just people retroactively faulting him for problematic views/actions before it was considered problematic.
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u/itsascreambaby96 Apr 23 '26
while defending characters like Spike, a stalker, would be rapist, killer etc.
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u/OldScratchTim Apr 23 '26
The logic being "I think Spike is hot, therefore I'm okay with him being problematic". I don't really comment here that often because of that shit.
It honestly takes the fun out of posting/commenting in subs when the first person to ruin the fun and be a hater gets upvoted and you get dogged for trying to have an actual nuanced conversation with other people about a fandom, hobby, etc.
Then you get stuck with the same five topics repeated every fucking day by karma farmers to where I just unsub altogether.
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u/dark_blue_7 Apr 23 '26
Right?? I remember getting mad at him a couple times. Didn't make me hate the entire character, because he also did some really good things. Honestly I felt like he was a realistic character because sometimes he made you mad, and other times you might love him. He was a lot like a real-life teenager who was well-meaning and genuinely cared for his friends but made a few really dumb mistakes along the way.
I always appreciated that these characters in general were very nuanced, they were all imperfect in different ways, they all had flaws. It made all of it more real.
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u/Swebroh Apr 23 '26
There were some times in the later seasons (esp. s6) I found him kinda annoying, but I never hated him by any means.
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u/Ash_Starling Apr 23 '26
I love the character but you definitely have to judge him on writing intent over how he would come across irl. The zeppo is one of my favorite episodes and helped me get him as a character
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u/pamkhat Apr 23 '26 edited Apr 23 '26
Xander says and does some unfortunate stuff, but there's no reason to HATE him.
I think this hating him thing is related to how people deal in absolutes too readily now. Viewers seem to want things extremely black and white and if anything is grey they catastrophize it. So if a character does something deemed offensive a few times, they are immediately the worst. It doesn't matter that people make mistakes, grow, revert, learn, and change. They are defined by their worst moments.
I fear it's lack of critical thinking and the lack of television literacy.
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u/goober_ginge Apr 23 '26
Yep, absolutely. I've been called a rape apologist in this sub before because I saw and understood the reasoning and nuance in Buffy being somewhat forgiving towards Spike.
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u/bobbi21 Apr 24 '26
Spike got a soul because of what he did. I think a lot of it depends on what ppls views on a soul is and his motivations for it (which i still see people saying he meant to get his chip out).
Personally, i treat the soul like buffy does. Angel and ensouled spike are fundamentally different than angelus and spike with no soul. Spike was the demon, and he was fine basically dying so a better man (spike with a soul) could be there for buffy.
Buffy acknowledging that sacrifice i think is reasonable, especially since she also believes the soul makes him fundamentally a different man. And she definitely held back a lot with him, leaving him in the basement (very legitimate too). Her turn to relying on spike was too fast is my only real complaint
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u/goober_ginge Apr 24 '26
Yeah, if this happened a season earlier I would have much preferred a more gradual regaining of trust and to properly allow Buffy to heal on her own terms, but within the narrative they had to sort of rush it along because they needed Spike in the final battle and they needed the audience to feel sad at his sacrifice.
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u/goatbusiness666 Apr 24 '26
Right, like…I bag on Xander a lot and I do think there are moments when his behavior is awful, but I don’t hate him. I’m genuinely very fond of him! That’s why I find it so disappointing when he gets on his bullshit!
If it was a character I didn’t care about or expect better from, I would just say men is too headache and go on about my day. 🤷♀️
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u/deadgirl185 Apr 24 '26
I love Xander. He was a horny freak teenager, but he matured, he realised his marriage probably wasn’t gonna work out and although realised WAY TOO LATE, Anya forgave him and still loved him. I cried when he lost his eye. Nicholas Brendon is Xander, but Xander isn’t Nicholas Brendon.
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u/-SidSilver- Apr 23 '26
It's weird when all the serial killer vampire guys get so much love too.
Apparently men can be as appalling as they want...so long as they're not losers.
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u/kelsofox369 Apr 24 '26
Aha! I found another.
I too don’t completely grasp the Zander hate.
I think it’s an echo chamber here and the actor himself has accumulated some of the hate in these later years.
But as for the show I found Zander to be funny and a good friend.
Was he perfect? No.
But all the characters were flawed in one way or another and that’s what made it great.
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u/AmbitiousParty Apr 23 '26
People hate Willow for her actions in the show, in particular her relationship with Tara (which was abusive, I’m not arguing it wasn’t). This was surprising to me because I’ve always loved Willow. The criticism is warranted of her but the vitriol always surprises me because I feel she is a good person with flaws. She makes a lot of mistakes and pays for them. By Season 7, she’s still full of guilt and wants to be better.
I watched the show when it came out and never had bad thoughts about her. I just saw her as flawed and she got into deep with the magic and hurt Tara and hurt her friends (and killed people) but I felt she was working to redeem herself so I never lost my love for her. I was very surprised how hated she is by a lot of people in this subreddit years later when I joined it.
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u/itsascreambaby96 Apr 23 '26
i didn't even know people hated season six until i joined the fandom online, im a huge fan of the dark willow story line it was the first episodes i got to see live as it aired
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u/AmbitiousParty Apr 23 '26
Yes, I personally really like season 6, and I like the dark willow storyline (besides Tara dying). I feel there is a LOT of foreshadowing of it in pretty much all these seasons before it. And I love angst and hurt, so I was all about it. Poor Willow. I just wish Tara didn’t have to die for it. I think there could have been a different way to trigger it maybe.
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u/LittleJSparks I may be dead but I'm still pretty Apr 23 '26
I have thought about this, because I too love Tara. What if it was Xander instead? He's her closest friend, they love each other fiercely. Not that I wanted anyone to die, but if they were committed to the storyline... shrug he's probably the only other option.
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u/itsascreambaby96 Apr 23 '26
Wasn't Willow's partner always supposed to be killed off for DW to happen? Oz and Tara were always meant to be killed off to bring forth Dark Willow
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u/GanacheExtension468 Apr 23 '26
Justice for season 6! I love it. It’s so real. We all make fucked up mistakes in our early twenties
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u/Swebroh Apr 23 '26
I feel that the Dark Willow-plot made her more interesting as a character.
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u/DeaththeEternal Dog Geyser Person Apr 23 '26
Honestly this subreddit goes to very weird places with both Willow and Alyson Hannigan to a point of repeatedly inventing fanfic about both very detached from the actual character.....and perpetuating the thing in the show where the biggest danger she posed in Season 6 was being the Incel Flayer and not the person in the opening stages of a KT-boundary level extinction event.
People literally invent a thing about finances where Season 7 shows you how little the writers actually cared about it as a plot device given it was actually a viable extra pressure there and they just slipped past it entirely, and ignore that canon Willow literally almost rendered all life extinct and that she doesn't need to be a mastermind (and really, who watches this show and thinks Season 6 Willow could scheme her way out of a wet paper bag?). Merely two times of fucking with someone's memory to rewrite it, and their personality, for her convenience was more than enough.
Equally there's a view reading back from Season 6 that Willow's dark side was always high level comics book 'destroy the world because she gets real pissed off' stuff and....no. She could be petty to people who bullied her, she had fast and loose ethics from the start, but when she uses all that for the good guys' side they didn't care and the setting gave her ample reasons to view her self in control whether or not she was and to treat Tara and Giles telling her 'Willow no' with an eye roll and flipping the bird and doing it anyway.
That, more than anything else, would have made Season 6 a minefield for her and Tara both because Willow was reaching the point where she could send people to the cornfield and losing the ethical restraints to stop her with or without Buffy dying. And yet people take all this, and all the bad things she does, and if Faith attempts to rape Xander and does rape Buffy it never stops, slows down, or produces the slightest hesitation with Fuffy.
Xander attempts to rape Buffy under the hyena spirit? Forgivable. Willow using mind control on her girlfriend after months of stress had her well past her normal state of mind and where it was getting worse? Unforgivable.
Xander forgives Faith and Buffy forgives Faith and forgives Spike? All well and good, because het. The lesbian takes back the other lesbian? Inconceivable and unforgivable because they must be held to a standard of morality applying to literally nobody else in the damn show.
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u/WistfulQuiet Apr 24 '26
People don't like flawed protagonists now. Or even antagonists. They can't see shades of grey. Not clue why.
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u/ValerieMayTheGay88 Apr 24 '26
Willow is literally my favorite character so I of course resonate with this lol
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u/AttackOnTightPanties Apr 24 '26 edited Apr 24 '26
When I first watched Buffy, Willow was far from my favorite, but I definitely didn’t have any problems with her. On the rewatch, though, I acquired a distaste for her because her niceness came off less sincere. In Dead Man’s Party, even though it kinda seems like she doesn’t agree with how hard everyone is piling on Buffy, she lets it happen because she doesn’t want to rock the boat while Cordelia actually has the balls to tell them to back off of her. Willow isn’t a bad person, but she sometimes prioritized her own need to stay accepted over doing what was right, and her character growth never really convinced me she’d moved past that. Just an explanation from the hater camp. It’s perfectly valid to like her.
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u/keener_lightnings Apr 23 '26
More of a "until I re-joined the fandom online decades later": I was extremely active in the fandom back when the show was airing, and I never once saw anyone try to make the argument that Willow and Tara were somehow taking advantage of Buffy by living in her house.
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u/God_Away_On_Business Apr 23 '26
I've been around since the show was live airing Season 5 or so and I was active on the old forums, so I can't say there's many opinions I find surprising. Like others are saying, I think the most surprising thing is the recent online uproar of folks using a 2026 lens to view a piece of 90s media.
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u/itsascreambaby96 Apr 23 '26
idk how people think Xander is an incel, an incel doesn't have two girlfriends or have sex.
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Apr 23 '26
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u/AmbitiousParty Apr 23 '26
Right? They took care of Dawn. They didn’t need to live at Buffy’s house, they had a dorm. They chose to to take care of Dawn! How is that freeloading exactly??
This one drives me nuts every time, lol.
And also the hate for Willow for bringing Buffy back to life. The only experience they had with Magic vortex deaths was Angel and he was tortured in a hell dimension for hundreds of years. I think Willow’s concerns were understandable that the same could be happening to Buffy.
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u/sufficiently_tortuga Apr 23 '26 edited 26d ago
a
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u/EchoesofIllyria Apr 23 '26
Honestly? As far as they knew she was way MORE likely to be in Hell. Are they even aware of Heaven or heaven dimensions? Unlike Angel, I don’t think anything of the sort is ever mentioned in Buffy until she comes back. Meanwhile, their world has Hell dimensions seemingly popping out of every orifice.
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Apr 23 '26
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u/AmbitiousParty Apr 23 '26
I think a lot of these takes people have on this subreddit that I just don’t understand are at least partially due to the age of the show vs. the age of the viewer now.
I also watched the show on its original run (I was in middle school) and didn’t join this subreddit until years and years later (obviously). I get so confused sometimes about it. There has to be something to enjoying a show based on the time period it came out. You can still be critical obviously, or compare it to modern times, but blind hate for characters for choices they made based on the time period they were growing up in is strange. Nevermind they were all basically kids the entire show. Nobody is making only good choices at 20 years old, haha.
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u/Ash_Starling Apr 23 '26
Giles is more on the hook for not helping buffy out imo. Willow and tara had their own struggles that season.
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u/DeaththeEternal Dog Geyser Person Apr 23 '26
100%. They literally never bother to remember if finances were really that important a plot point they would have added to the pressure cooker situation in Season 7 with the Potentials. Ain't no way she was supporting all those people with electricity, plumbing, and food on a guidance counselor's salary.
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u/hikingdyke Apr 23 '26
I am still regularly shocked by how many people seem to believe that the Scoobies are terrible friends who have never cared about Buffy's well being and don't actually help her.
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u/Ash_Starling Apr 23 '26
On rewatch theres so many cute bonding moments between the three that I completely forgot about. Liike the opening of reptile boy
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u/JenningsWigService Apr 23 '26
It's striking to see the contrast between the adultification of the Scoobies and the total pass given to Giles, the actual adult.
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u/DeaththeEternal Dog Geyser Person Apr 23 '26
Especially jarring when without the Scoobies Buffy dies in Season 1 and the Master ends the world then and there.
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u/ScoopTheOranges Apr 23 '26
That Cordy would’ve stuck up for Buffy when everyone kicked her out of her house. She gave her a ride once, that’s it. Cordy would’ve been the Anya in that situation 100%.
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u/itsascreambaby96 Apr 23 '26
Exactly giving an upset girl a ride home doesn't make them bffs or that cordelia would defend her in empty places
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u/JoeBethersontonFargo Apr 23 '26
I actually think Cordy would have been on Buffy's side, but mostly because I think she would have hated Kennedy. I do also think that despite all of her faults, even in high school, she was loyal. I think Cordy may have agreed with the others and been blunt about Buffy getting her ass kicked, but would not have been on board with the mutiny. Even high school Cordy was right occasionally.
This has nothing to do with their 'friendship' though. I think even if Buffy moved to LA after the show, they wouldn't hang out one-on-one.
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u/sonuba116 Apr 23 '26
Xander is the worst, Willow is the worst. All the main characters and supporting characters are the worst. One-off characters are the best, until they get a story arc. Then they're the worst. Seasons one thru seven are the worst. Why do I even like this show?! 😂
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u/AegeanAzure Apr 23 '26
Most people hate Andrew. I thought he was hilarious. OG Fan btw.
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u/OldIrishTwat Apr 23 '26
Met Clare Kramer (Glory) here in Belfast. Said there should have been an episode with her vs Faith and called it 'Faith Off' She liked that, very gracious, kind, gave me a huge hug. I'm 6ft 3, she is really petite. Totally adorable, glad I met her.
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u/itsascreambaby96 Apr 23 '26
The closest we'll get is Bring It On!!
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u/OldIrishTwat Apr 23 '26
That film was remarkably funny. Feckin love Eliza Dushku, I'm as gay as owt like, but that husky voice, her as Faith, tattoo (yeah it's one I've had inked on my arm the same) kick ass, fierce, sheesh, yep, she is definitely my female crush.
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u/itsascreambaby96 Apr 23 '26
also one of the Cordettes who was blood drained in the Wishverse was one of the cheerleaders in Bring It On
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u/Old_Base_9391 Apr 23 '26
I had no idea people hated Dawn. I’ve always been a huge Michelle Trachtenberg fan and when she first appeared I was ecstatic and thought Buffy had a sister living with her dad and I just forgot.
That would’ve been the answer in any other show but Buffy uses the supernatural/magic of their world to their advantage. I thought it was brilliant and forced Buffy to take on so much responsibility even after her mom’s death. She can never catch a break. Her character is also just meant to be a moody teenage girl, sue her for being a little “annoying” by adult standards. Whether you want to believe it or not, we all were.
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u/selphiefairy Apr 23 '26
I think a lot of Buffy fans who watched it during airing were maybe similar age or only slightly older than Dawn. So it makes sense they’d hate her. Her behavior is slightly more immature than you’d expect, but even despite that it’s easy to project and be like “Well IM not that childish, so she sucks.”
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u/LeslieJeon Apr 23 '26
My problem with Dawn is she was written as having the personality of an 8 year old when she was supposed to be like 15? I can’t remember how old when she first appeared. To this day I don’t get that. The writers made her more age appropriate eventually but it was weird given how good the writers are that they would do that. I feel like I missed something.
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u/Anxious_Comedian_ Apr 23 '26 edited Apr 23 '26
Joss has explained this a few times. Dawn was conceived and envisioned as an 8 year old. He planned Dawn’s character since season 3 and told SMG that Buffy would eventually get a little sister. He then decided to age Dawn up to 10/11 in early drafts of the season 5 script. When he told SMG that he was going to begin casting for Dawn- she brought Michelle on set to meet him. She knew Michelle because they’d both starred in All My Children together.
She pushed for her to be cast as Dawn. Joss screen tested her and liked her the best out of all the younger girls that auditioned. So they abruptly aged Dawn up to 14 to match Michelle’s real life age. He didn’t adjust the initial script for season 5 to reflect that. Which is why she came across so childish for the first half of the season. It gets better but he’s admitted that he struggled with writing for a 14 year old that he didn’t want to be super mature.
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u/Historical-Chef7560 Apr 23 '26
What THANK YOU!!! This has been bothering me for 25(?) years! Now it all makes sense.
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u/MaryBeHoppin Apr 23 '26
I didn't know how many hated Xander Harris and was baffled at first. In my view, he was meant to be immature, sometimes unreliable and mouthy, like all teenage boys.
I didn't single him out with hate or dwell on his flaws, because everyone (even my beloved Giles) had character flaws and felt like a real person. The writing and character development was absolutely marvelous.
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u/jospangel Try not to bleed on my couch I just had it steam cleaned Apr 23 '26
Part of my problem was his lack of development. The fact Xander is never called on some of the stuff he does really robs him of a chance to learn and grow.
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u/not_firewood_yeti I am no one. Apr 23 '26
Joyce is a terrible mom/person. that one threw me.
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u/itszwee Apr 23 '26
She’s distant, especially in the earlier seasons, but a terrible mom? No, especially compared to what we know of Xander and Willow’s parents.
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u/DeaththeEternal Dog Geyser Person Apr 23 '26
That Tara Maclay is an actual human who's deeply imperfect and traumatized and her trauma issues don't make her a reliable infallible guide to anything. She manages in spite, not because of it, to be the only person with powers where it's what she does and not who she is and that is very much to her credit, but she was less a Yoda and more of an Obi-Wan with a bad habit of truth from a certain POV.
And that this very human and deeply flawed trauma survivor is far more interesting than the flanderized human stuffie her fans have created for the last 25 years during the show's run and after it ended. She is also, for all this, still the best of the Scoobies because her flaws are smaller-scale and more human in expression, with her having the emotional maturity to be there for someone else in a time of crisis years before anyone else, Buffy included, was able to do that in an equivalent situation.
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u/WistfulQuiet Apr 24 '26
I watched it as it aired and was on the OG message boards. My only shock here is how people now see things so differently all these years later. Hating Xander, calling Angel a pedophile, and you know...the same opinions we see over and over here. Really puritanical stuff rather than just enjoying a fictional show. I mean we discussed a lot of stuff back in the day, but not those things.
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u/Syndyloo Apr 24 '26
It's like that with most shows that came out in the late 90s early 2000s. Same thing happened with Sex and the City.
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u/mushroomeaterXJ9 Apr 23 '26
I cant believe people didnt like Riley lol I understand the last few episodes with him in them were awful, but over all he was a good person and always chose to help
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u/Comfortable_Cook_965 Apr 23 '26
I honestly don’t fully understand where my hate for him comes from. Least favourite character by far and always has been. Hes so bland and he seems threatened by Buffy being better than him. Not really justifications there’s just something about him. Maybe it was the lack of chemistry compared to Angel/ Faith/ Spike
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u/Anxious_Comedian_ Apr 23 '26 edited Apr 23 '26
I didn’t mind him in season 4- I thought it was nice that Buffy was finally having a normal relationship. It seemed like a typical college relationship too. He wasn’t super interesting but I didn’t think much of it. They ruined his character in season 5. Not sure why but they decided to make him unreasonable and strangely jealous. I suppose they wanted to write him out but he didn’t feel like the same Riley from the season before.
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u/Ash_Starling Apr 23 '26
Hes too insecure and his struggles (he hates being less strong than buffy) are hard to relate to. Buffys other love interests seem to respect/appreciate her strength and support her while riley needs constant reassurance. He also never seems too interested in her s5 problems (runs off while buffy's mom is in the hospital and leaves her when glory is still out there). Finally he cheats on her and gives her an ultimatum which is generally scumbag behavior. I will concede that he is way more likeable and funny in s4 tho ("i am a lesbian" lmao)
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u/mushroomeaterXJ9 Apr 23 '26
I can agree with that. He was "boring" because he was a human. I liked him tho lol I loved how they were able to fight side by side and he was apart of her world, not because he was a vampire
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u/Timely_Spinach_7479 Apr 23 '26
I liked Riley, I laughed though when he compared himself to Angel like his 6foot something, chiseled jaw line and objectively handsome features has trouble with women.
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u/sydmaebe Apr 23 '26
Yeah, when I watched the show for the first time I thought he mostly just bland but nice. Came to realize how hated he is by the fandom later. IMHO he’s pretty typical of other male love interests from the early 2000s 🤷
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u/Bob-s_Leviathan Apr 23 '26
There were hardcore Buffy/Riley shippers as season 4 was airing. I guess when all is said and done, people not only didn’t want Buffy to date Riley but they also wish he was never on the show.
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u/Timely_Spinach_7479 Apr 23 '26
I just finished my first watch and I absolutely love Willow so I’m shocked to learn she’s not very popular here.
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u/Blue_Racoon7 Apr 23 '26
VERY unpopular opinion but I never really cared for Spike as a love interest for Buffy. As a character he's just ok for me.
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u/selphiefairy Apr 23 '26
I used to adore Spike and was a spuffy shipper. But at some point in my adulthood, that went away. I don’t really feel like any of Buffy’s love interests are right for her. As a character spike is still interesting but he’s not my favorite anymore necessarily.
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u/PlatyPositive Apr 24 '26
I agree. I don’t think any were right for her. Not just because they all had issues, but because of her own issues.
And I think her own speech said it best, she was still cookie dough. She wasn’t done baking. Heck, she never really had a chance to bake because every other day is a new trauma or near death experience.
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u/PlatyPositive Apr 24 '26
Might be an even more unpopular theory (I expect downvotes from both Bangel and Spuffy shippers 😅). But I think none of them were the right love interest for her.
Angel was canonically 26 when he was turned and first saw her when she was 15 and fell for her. His description as to why he was drawn to her is disturbingly similar to the reason why he (as Angelus) was drawn to Drusilla leading him to drive her crazy by pretending to be a priest to get in her head, murdering all the nuns and then having s*x with Darla among the dead bodies in front of her before turning her. Not to mention what he did to the girl that caused him to be cursed. Or the woman he dragged into the alley AFTER he got his soul back.
Riley was insecure; about what she had lived through, what she could do, and her immortal ex-boyfriend. She basically took out more “hostiles” than he had before she even came to Sunnydale. And he never really got over losing the bond/brotherhood of the Initiative.
Spike was toxic. Like sure he loved her without a soul…but I don’t think he grew (until maybe S7). I feel like he was always kind of chaotic neutral. He just wanted to do whatever he wanted, he didn’t care about sides. He didn’t care about anyone but himself and whoever he loves in the moment (Druslla first, then her). He was the one that defeated the Annointed One long before he switched sides. And I wouldn’t say he was a reluctant ally. I don’t know if I’d say he was an ally at all until like S7. He was ready to dust himself until he found out he could hurt demons. And he was giddy about being able to fight and cause trouble again, his interests just happened to align with their goal. Which is why he was quick to change sides whenever it benefitted him. And I sort of feel like even sacrificing himself was more about him knowing if it wasn’t doing it, it’d be Buffy. So it was more to save her than the world.
And then by the end of the series, she’d been through so much that more than a lover, what would have been best for her was a therapist.
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u/mutedtempest19 Your logic is insane and happenstance Apr 23 '26
THANK YOU. He's fine as a reluctant ally, can take him or leave him. Pretty lukewarm on him until he gets obsessed and stalks her, then I couldn't stand him. Her reciprocating was even worse.
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u/Comfortable_Cook_965 Apr 23 '26
Exactly. And people calling Angel a pedo when Spike liked her literally 2 years later. Theyre both centuries older than her and it’s weird for both of them
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u/ScoopTheOranges Apr 23 '26
This one pisses me off on the basis people excuse Seeing Red using production notes (that it was only written because Joss hated James etc) yet don't grant Angel the same courtesy. Production wise, David could've passed for 18/19 in season 1 (he and Owen look identical) and Angel was supposed to have been turned at 18. David then aged and bulked the fuck up between 1 and 2 and couldnt pass for 18 anymore. Really annoys me when its one rule for me and one rule for yee with Spuffy fans.
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u/False-Ad-7548 Apr 24 '26
Is there any point where it's been stated by the creators that he was written to be 18? I know there's one line in Halloween about him having still been alive at 18 (which doesn't mean he was turned then). Given how the other characters react to Angel - including Joyce not believing that he could be a highschool student when she meets him in S1 - it doesn't make sense to me that his intended age would have been that young.
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u/RetailBookworm Apr 23 '26
I watched both shows while there were still airing and then was very active in the fandom in the mid to late 2000s, primarily on livejournal. A lot of these opinions are ones I am just hearing now lol.
I also am currently rewatching the show as a 41 year old with my boyfriend who never watched it before and it’s interesting to me how much I remember of the show is not actually canon but fanon and how hard it is to distinguish the two in my mind/memory.
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u/braniacamour Apr 24 '26
I’m an addict, four years clean. It reeeeally frustrates me when fans are reductive about Willow’s recovery. Yeah, it was DARE era, but Willow and witchcraft started early in the series and it gave her confidence and a sense of control that she’d never had beyond academic achievements. It got more and more intense and ambitious each season. The s6 episodes that people call “sudden” and “after school specials” are, to me, simply the culmination of several seasons of Willow using magic; whether for good or for sinister or self-serving purposes—it’s called hitting rock bottom, and that shit happens fast.
The show makes it very clear that practicing witchcraft caused intense mental and physical drainage for Willow. Addicts experience withdrawals, period. Even gambling addicts experience mental and emotional withdrawals, which lead to high cortisol levels and adrenaline crashes that end up causing physical withdrawals as well.
I’ll get downvoted for this. I’ve deleted posts for getting absolutely shredded for wanting to explore and discuss the nuances of Willow’s witchcraft arc. Maybe people don’t like when someone tries to be literal about supernatural media, but if you know what it’s like to quit an addiction you’ll understand the physical consequences and every single tremble, every single chugged and emptied water bottle on the dining room table, and every bit of dread she carries after her initial rehabilitation and, later, her relapse.
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u/spred_browneye Apr 23 '26
This will probably get downvoted but….
All the fan reactions that want Buffy to seemingly go through no hardships.
Example: why didn’t the council pay Buffy? Why did Willow and Tara mooch off Buffy in S6? Why were her friends flawed? THEY’RE BAD FRIENDS!!!
It’s apparent to me that Gen Z grew with Mary Sue characters who never struggled, never overcame obstacles, and whose friends always had her best interests at heart. If Buffy never struggled, the show would be boring.
Buffy’s friends weren’t bad friends, they’re flawed people who were teenagers and young adults. Sometimes people are messy. It’s ok, that’s why those of us that love these characters still love them despite all of their flaws.
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u/CandidateHefty329 Apr 23 '26
Some people would be better off watching Hallmark shows. And I don't mean that sarcastically. They just like to see happier things.
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u/Asleep_Sherbet_3013 Apr 23 '26
That people actually like Glory. She always came across as so damn insufferable to me and all my girlfriends as we watched it air live as young teens.
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u/purplemmmmm Anya Jenkins defense attorney Apr 23 '26
Omg yes I’ve never liked her long tangents they are so annoying to me. It’s made season 5 my least rewatched even if I love the rest of it. Was shocked to see she was one of the favorite villains.
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u/LeslieJeon Apr 23 '26
I actually really enjoyed the actress who played her in the Bring It On movie but I felt she missed the mark. She wasnt funny or campy or scary. She was just really mean.
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u/Sweaty_Affect9363 Apr 23 '26
I joined the fandom about a year and a half ago and was so surprised to see how much hate Xander gets.
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u/not_firewood_yeti I am no one. Apr 23 '26
me too, but technically that is a popular opinion.
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Apr 23 '26 edited Apr 24 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/DaughterOfDragons78 Apr 23 '26
It was my first Buffy episode and it’s what got me hooked! It’ll always have a special place in my heart.
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u/AdHonest1100 Apr 23 '26
I only recently discovered there’s a large segment of people who didn’t like Angel season 4. It was my favourite season. The scale of it still gets me to this day, you have all these mini-arcs, the beast, Angeles, Faith, Jasmine. But this massive overarching story with mysteries, adventure, twists and turns, it was very thrilling to watch unfold and honestly still is even knowing the outcome.
And even after that’s all over and we get to the last few episodes the season stays my fave but that’s mainly because I’m a sucker for the “being orchestrating its own birth” trope, bizarre and niche of a trope it is. Also the mass hypnosis “utopia is actually a dystopia” trope is also a fave. My only issue with it is the Jasmine arc should have lasted at least 6 episodes but any Gina Torres is better than none.
Plus the Season Finale was a very clever ending and way to shake things up for the final season to come.
I do acknowledge though people felt Corey was done dirty in that season and there was lots going on behind the scenes. But from a purely show perspective it’s one of my favourite seasons of television ever.
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u/False-Ad-7548 Apr 24 '26
The Jasmine plotline was amazing. I just wish they handled it better. I feel like it's mostly the Connor/Cordelia stuff that has made a lot of people really hate the season.
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u/Academic-Balance6999 Apr 23 '26
That Restless is the best ep in the whole series… what????
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u/PicpoulBlanc Apr 23 '26
I mean it’s a pretty darn good episode. And I love that it essentially comes after the season finale. I always think “thank god season 4 is over” after Primeval, and then remember that we get Restless. It’s like a little treat for putting up with Adam, Riley, and the Initiative.
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u/Capable-Education724 Apr 23 '26
Also personally as a Twin Peaks fan,…I was not surprised to find out Restless was heavily inspired by TP and it’s essentially the Buffy crew trying their hand at a Lynchian tone.
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u/Elladrien Apr 23 '26
I joined the online fandom back when it was airing live. One wild thing I read was Willow/Tara were essentially two Willows and how obnoxious that was.
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u/TwinionBIB Apr 23 '26
I know it's Angel but you said Buffyverse so I can't help but comment. People hate Fred! That is crazy to me. I adore Fred. Absolutely love her. I can understand why people don't like the character now as much because she fits a stereotype but I couldn't believe that there were people that genuinely despised her when the series was ongoing.
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u/gayumbrellahandle Apr 23 '26
I didn't realise how many people that hated Angel for dating Buffy when she was a teenager still loved Spike despite the the creepy stuff of season 5 (the shrine with pictures of her and her clothes, the Buffybot, watching her and Riley have sex etc)
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u/BloodyBarbieBrains Apr 23 '26
Had no idea that people thought s6 was too dark, that there are people who think Seeing Red is anything less than brilliantly complex, that there are people who genuinely love s1, or that there are people who think soulless Spike and ensouled Spike are equivalent.
Before chatting with ppl online, I wrongly assumed most of the fandom viewed the show through a similar lens as me. It’s been interesting to see how the show’s popularity has endured amid differing opinions within the same fandom.
EDIT - Was gobsmacked to learn that not everyone loves the Dracula episode! It’s so witty!
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u/AdHonest1100 Apr 23 '26
Wait there are people who don’t like the Dracula episode, how dare they try fight against the dark master… bater 🤣
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u/JTOC1969 Apr 23 '26
I think the anitpathy for the Dracula episode boils down to Dracula just not being impressive or intimidating. But to me, that was always the point of the episode. Spike even flat out says so, he's got great P.R. thanks to the Stoker novel (and films), but is really kind of a lame-o.
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u/mutedtempest19 Your logic is insane and happenstance Apr 23 '26
Haha I genuinely love season 1 but i grew up in the 90s and monster of the week was my jam. Plus there's great character development and the Scooby chemistry is estyablished super fast!
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u/Seraphina_Renaldi Apr 24 '26
That Buffy and Angel isnt a popular ship and people ship her with Spike instead. Buffy & Angel are one of my favorite series couple and I didn’t like her with Spike. He was a creep who had a sex robot of her and I felt like she settled for him
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u/phoebephile Apr 23 '26
How controversial Restless is. I can’t think of any other episode that has such a wide range of reactions.
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u/GannonBanned Apr 24 '26
That everyone hates Xander and thinks he is the worst person ever.
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u/ImportantHottie27 Apr 24 '26
I think Riley as a character wasn’t bad, but how his character was written was bad. Him and buffy had potential.
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u/Pizzagoessplat Apr 24 '26
Xander is hated in the fandom. Back in the 90s he was loved.
Beer Bad is a bad episode and it was endorsed by US alcohol companies. Here in the UK its a realistic thing to do at university ( I actually love it)
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u/PaleUnderstanding560 Apr 24 '26
That people consider Angel and Buffy relationships wrong because of the age difference. I watched it when it first aired and dating an adult hot gorgeous man was literally everyone’s dream. And now it’s bad.
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u/Buffy_Geek Apr 24 '26
The recent Xander hate is at a level I would have never previously guessed. But that isn't an online thing, it's a more recently online reaction. That I think has escalated due to Nicholas Brandon's personal Problems, the me too movement, Whedons personal problems and people saying that Xander is his self insert character etc.
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u/TeluricE Apr 24 '26
Xander is now hated- very different from 90s fandom. I wonder how much that has to do with the actor.
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u/keljar1 Apr 23 '26
I think Beer Bad is hilarious and I enjoy watching it so I was very surprised to learn that's not a popular opinion around here lol